More Politically Correct Lunacy

[Fritz]

perhaps we are tackling this all wrong. This is not a race issue per se, but a commonality issue.

If people want to give black kids an award on MLK day, fine. Whats missing is giving kids with false teeth an award on washington's birthday, or giving kids that get laid an award on valentines day, or giving kids born on the 4th of july and award (yeah me), or giving kids in a union an award on labor day, or giving kids the get drunk an award on paddy's day, or giving kids that discoved a new continent an award on columbus day, or giving the kids of jesus an award on christmas.

SPREAD THE LOVE AROUND A LITTLE!

[Fritz]

dola. we just need enough holidays to include everybody.

[Easy Mac]

I'm pretty sure getting laid on valentines day when you're 14 is an award in and of itself.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Dutch

So the white kid from South African is not an African-American. Is that what I have learned in today's class?

No, it's the kid from Egypt.

Me? I would like to be refered to as English-Irish-German-Dutch-French-Scottish-American, thank you very much. What? My family's heritage is not important enough for hyphens?

[Easy Mac]

I just want to be called a mutt.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

No, it's the kid from Egypt.

Me? I would like to be refered to as English-Irish-German-Dutch-French-Scottish-American, thank you very much. What? My family's heritage is not important enough for hyphens?

I wonder how it works for me. My family originally came from the Netherlands (I don't care what MIJB says, it's true, damnit!). They were in New York/Pennsylvania up until the Revolutionary War then left for Canada (sided with the losing side of that conflict) and then slowly parts of the family migrated back into the US.

Of course, my mother is German. So am I a German-Dutch American? Or am I a German-Canadien American? Or a Canadien German-Dutch American?

And lots of "mutt" thrown in there BTW. Most people just call me, "Hey, white boy" however.

[stkelly52]

Originally Posted by astralhaze

I assume the conservatives who just looooove to rail against political correctness have no problem with calling African-Americans niggers, Jews kikes, Asians gooks, Mexicans spics, homosexuals fags, and etc?

If you do, and you still continue the argument, you are being extremely inconsistent.

I know that this is from yesterday, but I will finally get around to answering this one. Rather than call them any of those names the conservatives would prefer the term "person"

[astralhaze]

Originally Posted by stkelly52

I know that this is from yesterday, but I will finally get around to answering this one. Rather than call them any of those names the conservatives would prefer the term "person"

That doesn't answer the question I'm afraid.

[BishopMVP]

Racism=Bad
Too much Political Correctness=Bad

Does that answer the question?

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by astralhaze

That doesn't answer the question I'm afraid.

I think you are afraid it does answer the question.

[Glengoyne]

Dola,

Originally Posted by Dutch

So the white kid from South African is not an African-American. Is that what I have learned in today's class?

And thanks Skydog for quoting Jesse Jackson from when he used to actually be cool. Was it really that long ago???

Second thoughts first. I really never realized Jesse Jackson was ever cool. I have been hating him and his rhetoric for years. I guess I just wasn't paying enough attention to him back the early days.

Regarding the white kid not being African American. I have a friend who seems to think that the word "African" in African American has a very distinct connotation. That being that since their ancestors were brought over to this country against their will, and essentially weren't allowed to maintain their individual culture or history, they can't point to a specific nation of origin. In other words I can say I am Scottish, and that means my ancestors came from Scottland. Most black people cannot say which country their ancestors originated from. They can't say they are Nigerian or Ethiopian, because that heritage was essentially stolen from them. The term African American was desigated because it was generally descriptive of their ancestry. Since this kid knows he is from South Africa, if you accept this proposition, one would have to say he was South African American. Since I don't completely buy this argument, I still say he is African.

[stkelly52]

Originally Posted by astralhaze

That doesn't answer the question I'm afraid.

Technically, there was no question originally asked, just a statment that was made, but the implied question was "what do we call people of the various races?" any my answer does answer that question. We call them people. Racisim will only ceace to exist when we stop segregating ourselves. The conservative viewpoint is that the very fact that we clasify people differently is one of the major causes of racism.

[stkelly52]

Dola

Another interesting story along these lines. I met a girl who was a missionary kid that grew up in the interior of Africa. She moved there when she was 3. With the exception of 2 years of furlough she lived in africa until she was 18 and went to college in the U.S. While she was in college she took a course on African studies and in the class the professor was talking aobut the tribe right next to where she grew up. The things taht he was saying was full of half truths, and complete inaccruacies. When she attempted to correct these she started a rather fierce debate between herself and the rest of the class. During the debate someone said that she doesn't understand African Americans (a true statement as she really didn't understand any americans at the time, but that is a whole different issue). In response to that she said that she was the only one in the room who was a real African American, and to this day she believes that to be true

[astralhaze]

No, there was a very definite question asked. Let me see if I can put it simpler. Do you have a problem or find it offensive if a black person is called a nigger?

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by astralhaze

No, there was a very definite question asked. Let me see if I can put it simpler. Do you have a problem or find it offensive if a black person is called a nigger?

As a cuban spick I've tried to ignore this thread that has anglo's attempting to tell minorities how they feel about what they're called.. This one is really important.

I once posted here Lenny Bruce's famous bit on the word nigger but never got one response. Maybe it was too offensive, I don't know. I find it poignant.

I'll repost the same link. Again, he said it better but google likes this example. It was a recurring theme for him. I think it's valid even in this raw form.

"Are There Any Niggers Here Tonight?"

"Oh, my god, did you hear what he said? Are there any niggers here tonight? Is that rank! Is that cruel! Is that a cheap way to get laughs? Well, I think I see a nigger at the bar talking to two guinea owners and next to them....Now why have I done this? Is it only for shock value? Well, if all the niggers started calling each other nigger, not only among themselves, which they do anyway, but among others. If President Kennedy got on television and said:'I'm considering appointing two or three of the top niggers in the country to my cabinet'-if it was nothing but nigger, nigger, nigger- in six months nigger wouldn't mean any more than good night, god bless you...- when that beautiful day comes, you'll never see another nigger kid come home from school crying because some motherfucker called him a nigger."
---Lenny Bruce

http://www.comm.unt.edu/histofperf/h...intro_page.htm

Let's not get caught up in names but rather concentrate on how we are treated.

It would end a lot of this politically correct bullshit.

[Axxon]

Note, I'm not advocating the use of this word. I'm just not advocating giving the word some mystical power. As soon as the word loses this mystical power then it becomes less of a perjorative. It loses power.

Richard Pryor understood this and that's why he was so vocal in using the word. He was disenpowering it.

http://www.comm.unt.edu/histofperf/h...rHIst-sign.htm

Don't blame me.

[Axxon]

Ps, sorry about directly linking. I shouldn't have done that with "obscene" material.

Here's a good page about the Lenny Bruce for those who may not remember or know. I'll change the link.

hxxp://www.spiritone.com/~darklady/lenny.html

One of my favorite excerpts

But back to the c***sucking. Lenny was playing the Jazz Workshop, a club in San Francisco that had strippers and was down the street from a drag club. Lenny commented on a recent news item; a couple of "faggot" schoolteachers had been reinstated in their jobs, which they were highly qualified to perform, after having been found guilty of homosexuality. The local Hearst newspaper had demanded their immediate removal. Lenny pointed out that there had never been an incident reported in which a kid had gone home and said "Today in school I learned five minutes of geography and ten minutes of c***sucking." Bingo. Obscenity. Oh, not the idea that people could be cruelly judged based on their sexual behaviors... that wasn't obscene. C***sucking, an especially pleasant way to spend an afternoon, was deemed obscene. Uttering the word was deemed obscene. Lenny was obscene, a "dirty Jew" comic.

Posted lest someone just think he was a racist.

[Axxon]

I'll admit I'm likely wasting my time and effort but from the same article. This for the conservatives in the group. I know we have a few.

Lenny loved to laugh at liberals, too. He felt that most of them talked and marched a lot but didn't do anything inside of themselves. To test your liberal friends, he suggested bringing a date from another race and watch the fun begin. One of his best skits, "How to Relax Your Colored Friends at Parties," illustrates the good-hearted but inept attempt of a white liberal trying to make small talk with a black friend at a cocktail party. The conversation inevitably turns to the size of the black man's dick and what kind of women black men most like to schtup. "Sisters," comes the stereotypical answer. No other choice, he explains, not when you've got the "abnormally large" equipment that ships standard with your mahogany models. Every white man's fear: a dark man with a big dick who fucks willing sisters, standing in front of him, drinking a little drink and making a little small talk. And the white man unable to stop anything. Oh, my goodness. Next thing you know the faggots are going to want to get married.

[Axxon]

All of this oh, 40 or so years ago.

[Axxon]

Am I banned now????

[Dutch]

:crickets:

Actually, I have to disagree with Lenny Bruce and Richard Pryor. The use of language for good and bad can be perceived in advance and requires a certain level of discipline in order to speak properly.

Use the same discipine for (perceived) obscene words as you would slang words. Then, if they are used, they are used with emphasis which can enhance your communication not desensitize it to the point where nobody is listening anymore.

[JW]

Originally Posted by Axxon

As a cuban spick I've tried to ignore this thread that has anglo's attempting to tell minorities how they feel about what they're called..

Who exactly you callin' anglo? Anglo, although popularly used to describe white Americans, is an extremely imprecise term, much more imprecise even than African-American. The term more specifically applies to those of English descent. And this white guy's Celtic ancestors were killing Anglo-Saxons a few hundred years ago, and getting killed by them. Watch Braveheart again. The Anglos are the bad guys. The kilt-wearing Scots are the good guys. Anglo? Shows just how silly the name game is. I'm not no stinkin' Anglo.

Link to Anglo definition: http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/Anglo-Saxon
Link to Celt definition: http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/Celt

And, oh, wait. I forgot. This is the 21st Century in politically correct America. I almost forgot to say that I am terribly offended by use of the term anglo and am calling my lawyers. That's how the game is played now by the perpetually offended.

Which of course shows just how silly the whole name thing has become, which was the primary point imho of the students involved in the little insurrection in question.

[clintl]

Originally Posted by stkelly52

Technically, there was no question originally asked, just a statment that was made, but the implied question was "what do we call people of the various races?" any my answer does answer that question. We call them people. Racisim will only ceace to exist when we stop segregating ourselves. The conservative viewpoint is that the very fact that we clasify people differently is one of the major causes of racism.

When exactly did this conversion within the conservative movement occur? Because it has mostly been conservatives who fought tooth-and-nail against desegregation and the civil rights movement.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by clintl

When exactly did this conversion within the conservative movement occur? Because it has mostly been conservatives who fought tooth-and-nail against desegregation and the civil rights movement.

It was the Southern Democrats that had the local and state powers to enforce Jim Crow laws, I believe.

[clintl]

Southern Democrats were conservatives. It was the Republicans who thought that George Wallace's candidacy in the 1968 presidential election might cost them a victory, if you will recall. And the Southern Democrats had quite a few conservative Republican allies in that fight, including Barry Goldwater. Furthermore, Richard Nixon actively cultivated the support of those segregationist Democrats. Many of those Southern Democratic segregationists switched parties in the '60s and '70s precisely because the Republican Party was more likely to support them in opposing the civil rights movement.

[JW]

Originally Posted by clintl

When exactly did this conversion within the conservative movement occur? Because it has mostly been conservatives who fought tooth-and-nail against desegregation and the civil rights movement.

Political parties change positions. You are correct for that time period, particularly correct regarding Southern Democrats. But parties change. During the Civil War and Reconstruction, the Republican Party was the liberal, almost radical party favoring emancipation and then equal rights for blacks. The Democrats opposed this. Northern Democrats fought tooth and nail against Lincoln during the Civil War, with many even proposing a ceasefire with the Confederacy. They attacked Lincoln in a way far more vicious than Dems attack Bush today. Things change. Today in many ways the left and the Democratic Party are modern-day Puritans, which is pretty much what political correctness is, i.e., no view that differs from our view is acceptable. The REpublican Party is also changing. It is no longer the party of fiscal responsibility. It now believes in greater, not lesser federal government involvement in local affairs (No Child Left Behind, for example). But in many ways it supports diversity more than the left.

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by Chubby

all white frat = bad
all african-american frat = good

While I agree with most of what you said Chubby, and I don't think that it's right, I do have to say this. At colleges/universities there are all-white frats. However they don't have the official title of all white frat, you just kind of "know". The frat with all the good-ole boys with the southern twang in their voice usualy falls in this category. And yes before somebody says it there are good-ole boys who are smart enough to get into college and earn degrees. In fact somewhere out there there is a racist hillbilly son of a gun who is smarter and makes more money than you (points to everybody). Not me though, no sir.

[Maple Leafs]

This thread has evolved from a discussion about the specifc incident into one about bigger issues, which is fine.

If anyone's interested, though, here's a followup on the first article that fills in some of the blanks about the award and does a fairly good job of presenting both sides of the story:
http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_np=...0&u_sid=983292

[clintl]

Originally Posted by JW

Political parties change positions. You are correct for that time period, particularly correct regarding Southern Democrats. But parties change. During the Civil War and Reconstruction, the Republican Party was the liberal, almost radical party favoring emancipation and then equal rights for blacks. The Democrats opposed this. Northern Democrats fought tooth and nail against Lincoln during the Civil War, with many even proposing a ceasefire with the Confederacy. They attacked Lincoln in a way far more vicious than Dems attack Bush today. Things change. Today in many ways the left and the Democratic Party are modern-day Puritans, which is pretty much what political correctness is, i.e., no view that differs from our view is acceptable. The REpublican Party is also changing. It is no longer the party of fiscal responsibility. It now believes in greater, not lesser federal government involvement in local affairs (No Child Left Behind, for example). But in many ways it supports diversity more than the left.

I agree with a lot of what you said there, JW, but I don't agree that the Republicans of today are any more supportive of diversity, nor are they any more tolerant of ideas that conflict with the party line. Both parties have lost some their ideological diversity over the past 25 years, and I think that's a big reason for the partisan polarization we're seeing now. The liberal wing of the Republican Party that Nelson Rockefeller led in '60s and '70s is pretty much dead, and most of the old conservative Southern Democrats have switched parties.

[JW]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

This thread has evolved from a discussion about the specifc incident into one about bigger issues, which is fine.

If anyone's interested, though, here's a followup on the first article that fills in some of the blanks about the award and does a fairly good job of presenting both sides of the story:
http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_np=...0&u_sid=983292

Thanks for the post. I would say the principal, Crook, blew it. Consider this quote from Crook, from the linked story:

Crook agreed. "Obviously, it's a teachable moment. We all need to be more sensitive."

Easy for Crook to say after suspending the students involved in the incident. I would say he was not being sensitive to their position. A better idea might have been call in the students for a discussion of the matter.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by JW

Easy for Crook to say after suspending the students involved in the incident. I would say he was not being sensitive to their position. A better idea might have been call in the students for a discussion of the matter.

Probably true that a discussion would have been more appropriate, but keep in mind -- the students had the first opportunity to open that dialog, and they passed on it.

From the article: "Crook defends the idea of giving a special honor to a top black student. Those who feel otherwise should have talked to him, he said, rather than upsetting the tone of Martin Luther King Jr. Day with posters that some viewed as mocking."

I think that's the key to it. Even if you believe the students when they say they were trying to for satire and political comment, and even if you agree with their stance (and obviously a lot of people here do), they went about it the wrong way.

From the article: "My heart sank," said this year's winner, Kingsley Okafor, describing his reaction. "It shows the ignorance of the student body. I don't think they meant badly."

If that's the sort of impact that these kids were trying to accomplish, they're jerks. If not, then they clearly messed up with how they delivered their message. In either case, I still don't find them to be especially sympathetic figures.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

While I agree with most of what you said Chubby, and I don't think that it's right, I do have to say this. At colleges/universities there are all-white frats. However they don't have the official title of all white frat, you just kind of "know". The frat with all the good-ole boys with the southern twang in their voice usualy falls in this category. And yes before somebody says it there are good-ole boys who are smart enough to get into college and earn degrees. In fact somewhere out there there is a racist hillbilly son of a gun who is smarter and makes more money than you (points to everybody). Not me though, no sir.

I'm sure there are all-white frats, and there shouldn't be.

The hypocrisy comes when it is "acceptable" to let minorities (not trying to single out african americans) create an exclusive society yet if the majority does it then all hell would break loose. The same thing with Augusta. All male membership??? GASP! Noooooooooo we can't have that... all female membership clubs (which exist), of those are fine... it's crap. either say we're all equal and stand by it, or come out and say that you don't think everyone is equal. By creating exclusive societies based on race/gender/some other genetically inherited trait you just further push people apart.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by JW

The REpublican Party is also changing. It is no longer the party of fiscal responsibility. It now believes in greater, not lesser federal government involvement in local affairs (No Child Left Behind, for example). But in many ways it supports diversity more than the left.

Of course, in the long run, a morally strong family united society is a lot cheaper to run than any state-run law enforced society from top to bottom. So the NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND is much like the FAMILY VALUES the right wing has been preaching for over a decade at least. Not only is it cheaper on for the nation if it succeeds, but it's the right thing to do.

[JW]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Of course, in the long run, a morally strong family united society is a lot cheaper to run than any state-run law enforced society from top to bottom. So the NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND is much like the FAMILY VALUES the right wing has been preaching for over a decade at least. Not only is it cheaper on for the nation if it succeeds, but it's the right thing to do.

In general NCLB may be the right thing to do, but the devil is in the details. And the details of NCLB are going to cause some big problems and place many unfunded and unrealistic requirements on schools. Under NCLB an excellent school will be labeled a failing school, for example, if only one of its various subgroups fails to show progress over a one-year period. So a school might get a group of special education kids, for example, that happens to be weaker than those already at the school, and if test scores for special ed kids at the school drop that one year, then suddenly the school is labeled 'failing' and subject to sanctions. Likewise, the school that finally got rid of that same group of students might show a positive score bump and be praised for its improved test scores. Absurd.

[stkelly52]

I know that this is completly off of the point, but I doubt that the south african kid would qualify for the award. We don't know the whole story, but with just six years in the US, I doubt taht he has citzenship yet, therefor he wouldn't be an American.

[sabotai]

It takes more than 6 years for someone to obtain citizanship?

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by stkelly52

I know that this is completly off of the point, but I doubt that the south african kid would qualify for the award. We don't know the whole story, but with just six years in the US, I doubt taht he has citzenship yet, therefor he wouldn't be an American.

And I doubt that most of the students eligible for the award ever spent any time in Africa. It is quite obvious that the African in African-American didn't mean a citizen of an African nation, and also that the American didn't mean American citizen. Let's face the truth here: The award went to the best student whose skin color fit the subjective determination of those awarding this award. This idea has many problems which have been pointed out previously in the thread, and trying to apply a double-standard to the South African kid that is not applied to the winner of the award is avoiding the real issues here.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by stkelly52

I know that this is completly off of the point, but I doubt that the south african kid would qualify for the award. We don't know the whole story, but with just six years in the US, I doubt taht he has citzenship yet, therefor he wouldn't be an American.

So you wouldn't classify a black immigrant, fresh off the boat from South Africa, as an African American?

[JW]

What do we call a black-skinned American of Australian aboriginal or Melanesian descent?

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

So you wouldn't classify a black immigrant, fresh off the boat from South Africa, as an African American?

if the litmus test is citzenship, then no. i think that was his point.

[stkelly52]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

And I doubt that most of the students eligible for the award ever spent any time in Africa. It is quite obvious that the African in African-American didn't mean a citizen of an African nation, and also that the American didn't mean American citizen. Let's face the truth here: The award went to the best student whose skin color fit the subjective determination of those awarding this award. This idea has many problems which have been pointed out previously in the thread, and trying to apply a double-standard to the South African kid that is not applied to the winner of the award is avoiding the real issues here.

My point was to show the irony that while they were trying to show that the literal meaning of "African" in Afican-American should include a white South African, the literal meaning of "American" excludes him.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I wonder how it works for me. My family originally came from the Netherlands (I don't care what MIJB says, it's true, damnit!). They were in New York/Pennsylvania up until the Revolutionary War then left for Canada (sided with the losing side of that conflict) and then slowly parts of the family migrated back into the US.

Of course, my mother is German. So am I a German-Dutch American? Or am I a German-Canadien American? Or a Canadien German-Dutch American?

And lots of "mutt" thrown in there BTW. Most people just call me, "Hey, white boy" however.

Hey, I only said your name sounded German, I always said if you feel Dutch, you are Dutch to me. Even if you can't live with legalization of using soft drugs, gay marriage, abortion, euthenasia, freedom of religion, murdered politicians and teachers, or whatsoever.

Now what was the code for that sarcasm greamlin/smilie again?

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by astralhaze

That doesn't answer the question I'm afraid.

Astralhaze, another failed product of the Marxist-indoctrinating Public School System, where all the bad guys wear black hats and are called 'conservatives' and all the good guys wear white hats, are called 'liberals', and want to make the world safe for Karl Marx and Hillary.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Astralhaze, another failed product of the Marxist-indoctrinating Public School System, where all the bad guys wear black hats and are called 'conservatives' and all the good guys wear white hats, are called 'liberals', and want to make the world safe for Karl Marx and Hillary.

Bubba, you just wanted to spread your "wisdom" in another thread? Why don't you quit trolling and attacking people and go hide in your happy little cave where the liberals won't hurt you?

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by John Galt

Bubba, you just wanted to spread your "wisdom" in another thread? Why don't you quit trolling and attacking people and go hide in your happy little cave where the liberals won't hurt you?

Ha! I see your following me around, Johnny-boy! Perhaps you really can't get enough of me even if you can't admit to yourself! By the way, why don't you enlighten us with some of your 'main-stream' political wisdom? Is your boat taking on water yet, or are you just borrowing that name without the political context of it?

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Ha! I see your following me around, Johnny-boy!

Still Undefeated?