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View Poll Results: Should Croff be locked up for this? | |||
Yes. He murdered a man in cold blood. The law is the law. | 50 | 48.54% | |
No. Justified homicide. He should be considered a hero. | 22 | 21.36% | |
No, but something needs to be done... Probation maybe? | 31 | 30.10% | |
Voters: 103. You may not vote on this poll |
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01-06-2010, 06:30 PM | #151 |
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I don't think the government should kill people, or punish them excessively, but when a criminal is killed on the street (especially via hazard of their own crime), it's not a sad day. Last edited by molson : 01-06-2010 at 06:34 PM. |
01-06-2010, 06:56 PM | #152 | |
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If the situation calls for it (ie. your life is endangered) I have no problem with that. If you arrive home and some guys are attempting to break into your home but then flee, well, that's not one of those situations. Citizens shouldn't be dishing out their own death sentences when nobody was in any risk of getting hurt.
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01-06-2010, 06:59 PM | #153 |
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I don't know if it was said here...but if the 31-year-old lets the 53-year-old go, this turns into Death Wish. It's reasonable to believe that if the 53-year-old man is allowed to leave the 31-year-old who is holding a gun at him, he's coming back...and he's coming back with something of his own.
I don't really have a side here; in all honesty, this has way too many shades of gray. What if he shoots him in the leg? What if the other guy has a gun? Once I say I'm leaning towards one side, I think of the other and...well, I can't figure it out. That said, I do believe that there's no jury in the world that would convict him. I think it's a situation that has a never-ending discussion cycle; it's also polarizing enough that you aren't convincing someone out of their initial conceptions one way or another. For more evidence on that, please see this thread. |
01-06-2010, 07:17 PM | #154 | |
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endless loop alert |
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01-06-2010, 08:14 PM | #155 |
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You fuck with the bull, you get the horns.
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01-06-2010, 10:14 PM | #156 |
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01-06-2010, 11:15 PM | #157 | ||
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Silas reportedly had his hands in the air - if true, I can't see how anyone can justifiably describe that as him posing a threat, unless he was charging at Croff (and that hasn't been reported). Quote:
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01-07-2010, 12:03 AM | #158 | |
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He's endangering anyone that could be out on that same street. This guy was a good shot. What if he wasn't? What if he hits someone else?
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01-07-2010, 11:33 AM | #159 |
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Even being in the home not necessarily enough:
AG seeks charges against Sen. Soles for shooting :: WRAL.com Original story when it happened with a bit more details on the incident: Sheriff: Sen. Soles shoots man at home :: WRAL.com
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01-07-2010, 03:43 PM | #160 | |
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I don't think John is getting any Humanitarian of the Year awards anytime soon. |
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01-07-2010, 04:08 PM | #161 | |
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I will admit to some surprise at how many others are generally agreeing with him on this one though... |
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01-07-2010, 04:43 PM | #162 | |
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Ditto.
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01-07-2010, 07:11 PM | #163 | |
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When my shop was broken into last year(with me in the warehouse), it took them 64 minutes to arrive in exactly that scenario. The local satellite office is in the same business park. |
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01-07-2010, 07:26 PM | #164 | |
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The bolded is not black and white. Was he unarmed? Did he pose a threat? The more I think about this, good riddance piece of shit. |
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01-07-2010, 07:35 PM | #165 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
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01-07-2010, 07:53 PM | #166 |
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Absolutely, without hesitation or question afaic.
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01-07-2010, 07:57 PM | #167 |
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Thing is, it wasn't even that, if I understand it correctly. The dead guy didn't even get into the house in the first place, and fled while attempting to break-in. So attempted break-in is a death sentence for more than a few folks here at FOFC.
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01-07-2010, 08:02 PM | #168 | |
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But they did eventually get there, didn't they?
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01-07-2010, 08:05 PM | #169 | |
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Actually, what I stated is black and white. Killing an unarmed man who is not posing an immediate threat is wrong. Can't really get more basic than that. What you want to do is argue the facts of the case and make hypotheticals to make your argument look better. Sorry, I'm not interested in playing that game until we see facts that support your hypotheticals.
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01-07-2010, 09:01 PM | #170 | ||
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For the life of me I don't know why you guys think an average person is capable of this under pressure. You treat the guy as if he was a cop. Quote:
The point is you can only say he wasn't a threat and wasn't armed after the fact. In the moment, you can't and average joe victim should not take any chances. The criminal does not get any benefit of the doubt. Hypotheticals are all that existed, so you need to assume the worse. If you disagree with me, you are wrong. Last edited by jeff061 : 01-07-2010 at 09:03 PM. |
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01-07-2010, 09:05 PM | #171 |
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I'm not sure an average person would have chased them down the street with a gun drawn.
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01-07-2010, 09:07 PM | #172 | |
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That I don't know and am not going to argue either way. I imagine he wasn't exactly in a right state of mind, who would be. I don't know how different people would be affected. The end result was the idiot turning around and questioning the victims desire to defend himself. Last edited by jeff061 : 01-07-2010 at 09:07 PM. |
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01-07-2010, 09:07 PM | #173 |
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01-07-2010, 09:08 PM | #174 | |
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If this guy were only interested in defending himself, is he safer in his house with his gun or running after this guy in the street?
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01-07-2010, 09:08 PM | #175 |
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Whatever makes you feel better. |
01-07-2010, 09:14 PM | #176 |
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01-07-2010, 09:16 PM | #177 | |
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I'm not sure the average person has the sense God gave a goose either, so that may not be the best standard to apply here.
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01-07-2010, 09:20 PM | #178 |
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01-07-2010, 09:21 PM | #179 |
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My guess is the ends justify the means. At least Jon is honest about that.
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01-08-2010, 07:39 AM | #180 |
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Tough guy on the internet alert! In other news, JIMG has been made the spokesperson for the RIAA. In a press conference to introduce JIMG, he was asked to say a few words. He said, "In an effort to combat downloading, the RIAA wants to propose tough new penalties. We just believe that bankrupting our customers for downloading one song is insufficient. We need even further draconian punishment since the 8th amendment only applies to government and not private individuals or private enterprise. We can do whatever we want. So we're developing a program to to detect when any computer on the internet loads a Bittorrent program. Once we do, the RIAA in conjunction with the power company, will send a power surge back to the offending computer. The offending computer with explode, sending RIAA-approved shrapnel hidden in AMD and Intel chips hurtling through the monitor. Anyone within 20 yards will be instantly killed, preventing further abuse of copyright laws. We think this will be an effective deterrent until we can develop the program to nuke downloading thieves from orbit." Last edited by Blackadar : 01-08-2010 at 07:40 AM. |
01-08-2010, 07:44 AM | #181 |
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you are one sick sick sick person.
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01-08-2010, 08:04 AM | #182 | |
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Y'know, I actually had to read that to see if I wrote it myself. edit to add: I wasn't sure I didn't write it at some point until the "nuke from orbit" part. I would likely have gone with something more elegant involving neutron bombs.
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01-08-2010, 08:19 AM | #183 | |
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Yet even so, as you stated earlier in the thread, you're OK with letting the "average person", who has a gun, act as judge, jury and executioner in the street. It doesn't seem consistent to me. And yet elsewhere you've said you would have no problem removing voting rights for vast swathes of Americans. I ask because usually your views do have a consistency, and it's not appearing to me here. |
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01-08-2010, 09:16 AM | #184 | |
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Exactly. Remove the comment and we have a man chasing a would-be burglar down the street. The burglar stops, turns around with his hands up. The man shoots and kills him. Is there any doubt that without the dialogue this guy just killed a man who was surrendering? So the question is simply what does saying "What are you going to do, shoot me?" turn the situation into? |
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01-08-2010, 09:20 AM | #185 | |
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01-08-2010, 09:24 AM | #186 | |
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It still depends. There's no clear line here. Did the criminal take a bunch of steps towards him? Did he look scared? Did he make any threatening gestures? Where was his co-criminal, exactly? Was it day or night? All I'm saying is you better be sure this was done in "cold blood" as people claim here, before you lock up a guy, who was seconds earlier the victim of a violent crime, for life. And there's only one surviving witness, apparently. I've never seen the criminal justice system defended more vigorously on this board as when the "victim" is a home invader, and the "criminal" is a constant victim. Odd. I'm glad we have a board full of people who are such cool customers who are so sure they'd never be impacted by violent crime and could act like trained police officers under extreme pressure. Otherwise, I'm sure they'd have problems with the moral superiority here. Last edited by molson : 01-08-2010 at 09:29 AM. |
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01-08-2010, 09:27 AM | #187 |
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That's certainly one way to word it molson, but I'd prefer that some people on this board don't feel someone should be put to death for breaking into a house.
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01-08-2010, 09:29 AM | #188 |
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01-08-2010, 09:31 AM | #189 | |
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Hmm ... let me ponder that for a moment, I'll agree on the appearance of a certain degree of inconsistency there myself. I'm definite on the goose holding its own one and I'm definite on the need to sharply curb voting eligibility one, so the inconsistency has to lie with the most recent scenario. I believe the distinction rests with the scenario at hand vs your interpretation/presentation of it. "OK with letting the "average person", who has a gun, act as judge, jury and executioner in the street" is different than the scenario (as I understand it) in this thread. AFAIK this wasn't a deal where there was any doubt about who the perp was, caught red-handed apparently. No amateur detective work required, not even much in the way of needing to figure something out, not a lot riding on the intellectual prowess of the homeowner here. Basically, the situation was what it was. About the only real worry I've got here is whether the would-be victim exercises proper gun control & hits what he's aiming at. It sort of reminds me of something else in the news earlier this week, the prison hospital death of the 89 y/o gunman in the Holocaust museum shooting back in June. The connection to that case was several stories I noticed referring to him as "the alleged gunman". Huh? I don't believe there was the slightest bit of doubt about him being the museum shooter, he wasn't just alleged, he was, no ifs ands or buts about it. This deal is similar in that there really doesn't seem to be any reasonable doubt about who was in his sights, he didn't shoot an "alleged" criminal, he shot a red-handed bad guy. Unless the shooter was Stevie Wonder, I don't much room to think he got it wrong, regardless of his intelligence.
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01-08-2010, 09:33 AM | #190 | |
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The "put to death" angle misses the mark completely. I don't think someone should be put to death for breaking into a house either. That's not a realistic description of what happened here. I'm saying that someone shouldn't have their life taken away by the government for killing an intruder into their house, when a reasonable perception is that the threat hasn't clearly ended (even if it actually has) - and ESPECIALLY when we can't really know exactly what happened. Really, what other scenerios should we just lock someone up if we're pretty sure something looks bad and we feel we would do something differently? When should we lock someone else up forever for not following our own moral code about when deadly force is necessary or justified? Last edited by molson : 01-08-2010 at 09:37 AM. |
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01-08-2010, 09:33 AM | #191 | |
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That's okay, I'd prefer everyone would agree that eliminating thieves is a net plus but I'm afraid neither of us are going to get what we'd wish for in a perfect world.
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01-08-2010, 09:37 AM | #192 | |
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As stated above, I think the game changed when he chased them out of his house, which I would say would be assumed to be safe, to the street, which I would say is definitely "less safe" than his house. That is, he willingly reduced his safety to chase after these guys for some reason. We can guess all night at why he did that, but even his own family acknowledges his frustration at being broken into. I can understand that frustration. I can't understand, however, how that frustration could be allowed to end a man's life.
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01-08-2010, 09:39 AM | #193 | |
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I can see that you disagree with his behavior, and would do things differently. That doesn't seem like a reason to take away the shooter's life too. I don't see how this guy would think the safe would be safer than his house. His house is clearly not safe. He could be killed there anytime, in this neighborhood (though probably not anymore, thanks to his actions). Last edited by molson : 01-08-2010 at 09:40 AM. |
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01-08-2010, 09:39 AM | #194 | |
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OK, that's what I thought, but thanks for clarifying. Of course, the weakness that still exists is that if you encourage citizens to take the law into their own hands in "obvious" situations is that you'll have folks with varying ideas of what an "obvious" situation is. |
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01-08-2010, 09:41 AM | #195 | |
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This is true. I'm not convinced anyone should take away the shooter's life, for that matter. I was more reacting to the "he's done nothing wrong" sentiment. I'm truly ambivalent on what should be done with him.
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01-08-2010, 09:51 AM | #196 | ||
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Yea, well...I had to throw in the tribute to Ripley/Aliens in there. Quote:
No, you're right. He wasn't put to death. He was murdered in cold blood. We don't know EXACTLY what happened. But I find it amusing that the majority of the conjecture has come from the "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" crowd. Phrases like "did he have a gun" (which is irrelevant unless he was reaching for it), "how threatening were his words/tone", "was he going for a weapon", "was he advancing towards the shooter", "did he pose a threat" and so forth have all been used to try to justify the actions of the shooter. That's an awful lot of speculation and none of it verified as fact. I base my opinion on what we seem to know. A 53 year old man tried to break into a house. When the 31 year old Mr. Croff discovered the crime, the 53 year old man ran. The 31 year old chased him and it's very likely that he caught up to him given the physical conditioning of the 31 year old. But at this point neither man was on nor near the property where the attempted break-in happened. The 53 year old man put his hands up, turned and found a gun pointing straight at his chest. At some point, he said, "what are you going to do, shoot me?" at which point Mr. Croff replied "absolutely" and pulled the trigger. That's what we have to base our decision on. That scenario is clearly defined as murder in the legal code and IMHO, rightfully so. Otherwise, we might as well go to a system of vigilante justice. I also find it interesting that none of the "kill him" crowd have responded to Quick's post. If he was a justified threat at that time, when does he not become a threat? I don't think you'll find too many people who wouldn't think the guy was justified in shooting if the burglar turned around and charged at the man. But unless additional details come to light, it appears that's not what happened. |
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01-08-2010, 09:57 AM | #197 | |
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I don't think you know what cold blood means. I also think that justifiable homicide/self-defense law is a lot broader, more vague than people here are assuming. Last edited by molson : 01-08-2010 at 09:58 AM. |
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01-08-2010, 10:11 AM | #198 | |
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No, it's pretty narrowly defined for a reason - to prevent stuff like this from happening. See: Goetz, Bernie. |
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01-08-2010, 10:24 AM | #199 | |
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I don't think being a cool custoer has anything to do with it. If my house was burglarized and I cae hoe while it was happening my first thought wouldn't be to chase the guy, it would be oh fuck, I better call 911. It seems to me by chasing the guy he had a pretty clear intention of what he was going to do. If anything he was the cool customer in this situation. I am fairly certain it would take a much more extreme situation for me to pull the trigger and take a human life. |
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01-08-2010, 10:31 AM | #200 | |
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To prevent what from happening? Goetz defended his property (and possibly his life) in a time when NYC was an incredibly violent place. And he was acquitted. The law was such that he was allowed to be charged, but the jury (and the city) spoke very loudly that he should not locked up. We want to to prevent that in the future? (Actually, the answer to that question scares me, so forget it). Last edited by molson : 01-08-2010 at 10:31 AM. |
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