Have you ever cheated on a spouse/long-term other?

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Love doesn't operate independent of behavior. Part of being in a loving relationship is doing things, or not doing certain things, in order to demonstrate one's love and commitment. Giving foot rubs and not going to strip clubs are the same type of action.

So my wife doesn't really love me because she won't stay home from the strip clubs and give me foot rubs?

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Cringer

So my wife doesn't really love me because she won't stay home from the strip clubs and give me foot rubs?

That deoends entirely on wether she's going to the clubs to work or to play =)

[Galaxy]

Do you believe consenting polygamy should be legalized? Of course, one girl is enough.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Originally Posted by ThunderingHERD

Also: I picked dingleberries off your girlfriend last night.

Wha?

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by RendeR

OK, but if she's still in love with you, you'd rather give that up? This is where I tend to lose people, I don't understand the willingness to give up on love. Maybe I was just unloved as a child and this is how my psyche compensates or something =)

I look at it like this: In matters of romantic love, for me personally, there can be only one.

In the situation like you describe, yes, I'm going to give that up, because I'm not going to have turn it into something where she hates me because she's in love with the other person and wasn't able to pursue it.

So it's giving her the chance to explore it without guilt or anxiety.

If she decides in the end that she doesn't love the other person like she thought and I'm still available both emotionally and relationshipally, fine.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Izulde

I look at it like this: In matters of romantic love, for me personally, there can be only one.

In the situation like you describe, yes, I'm going to give that up, because I'm not going to have turn it into something where she hates me because she's in love with the other person and wasn't able to pursue it.

So it's giving her the chance to explore it without guilt or anxiety.

If she decides in the end that she doesn't love the other person like she thought and I'm still available both emotionally and relationshipally, fine.

Ok I see what yer saying. I think it becomes far less black and white than what you describe in reality, but in the end everyone has to live their way. Good clarification there =) Thanks!

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Do you believe consenting polygamy should be legalized? Of course, one girl is enough.

Honestly, I don't see where the government and the Law should have anything in any way to do with marriage or people's choice of lifestyle.

I personally feel that if a group of 5 men and 4 women want to marry one another all the way around, and live as a single recognized family unit with all the protections and benefits that go with that "family" status, then they should be allowed to.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Honestly, I don't see where the government and the Law should have anything in any way to do with marriage or people's choice of lifestyle.

I personally feel that if a group of 5 men and 4 women want to marry one another all the way around, and live as a single recognized family unit with all the protections and benefits that go with that "family" status, then they should be allowed to.

What about the psychological impact of children in that family? Most of society is not understanding of such a family, and there are going to be questions from outside families, from other kids, etc. There are going to be many issues brought up that are going to be very hard for kids in such a "family" to deal with.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

What about the psychological impact of children in that family? Most of society is not understanding of such a family, and there are going to be questions from outside families, from other kids, etc. There are going to be many issues brought up that are going to be very hard for kids in such a "family" to deal with.

What is the psychological impact of children of divorce? Seperation?

I would think that a loving family with morethan one adult for role models would be far superior to one in which there are only 2, or less if you consider the current divorce rate in this country.

You're presuming that 2 is better than anything, and I can't help but wonder why? Who decided that the diad was the proper form of family to raise children?

There is a saying, "It takes 2 people to make a child, but it takes a village to raise them."

For a healthy, mentally and emotionally healthy child there has to be more than 2 people in their life guiding them along, why can only 2 of those people fill the role of 'parent'?

[Anthony]

jeezus horseshit, what the fuck do you people smoke up in Buffalo??

[gkb]

Originally Posted by RendeR

What is the psychological impact of children of divorce? Seperation?

I would think that a loving family with morethan one adult for role models would be far superior to one in which there are only 2, or less if you consider the current divorce rate in this country.

You're presuming that 2 is better than anything, and I can't help but wonder why? Who decided that the diad was the proper form of family to raise children?

There is a saying, "It takes 2 people to make a child, but it takes a village to raise them."

For a healthy, mentally and emotionally healthy child there has to be more than 2 people in their life guiding them along, why can only 2 of those people fill the role of 'parent'?

So you're saying you're having sex with an entire village?

[RendeR]

I guess what I really mean is, just because the majority says something is right and good and proper, doesn't make it true, it simply means they hapepen to agree with one another.

How children intereact with society is probably the single most important thing THEIR PARENTS must teach them.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

jeezus horseshit, what the fuck do you people smoke up in Buffalo??

Oh please, save us your ignorance for once HA. You really have no place in this conversation =)

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by gkb

So you're saying you're having sex with an entire village?

Oh hell no, even I can't maintain that many relationships...

[mrsimperless]

I would have voted, but I couldn't find "Yes, and now it hurts when I pee"

[mrsimperless]

Originally Posted by RendeR

What is the psychological impact of children of divorce? Seperation?

I would think that a loving family with morethan one adult for role models would be far superior to one in which there are only 2, or less if you consider the current divorce rate in this country.

You're presuming that 2 is better than anything, and I can't help but wonder why? Who decided that the diad was the proper form of family to raise children?

There is a saying, "It takes 2 people to make a child, but it takes a village to raise them."

For a healthy, mentally and emotionally healthy child there has to be more than 2 people in their life guiding them along, why can only 2 of those people fill the role of 'parent'?

Back in the olden days it used to take a village to raise a child. Now it takes 2, sometimes 1.

Vonnegut had some good observations on it in "Man Without a Country"

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Oh please, save us your ignorance for once HA. You really have no place in this conversation =)

you're a fucking kook. you have no place in society. what, do you also wear your boots on your head just to be different? i don't care about your open marriage, but if you're going to start talking verbal shit from your mouth about having 4 or 5 parents is just as good, if not better, for a kid then you need to remove yourself from this thread and stop wasting people's time with your fucking bullshit. now you're just being silly.

i really can't stand people from upstate NY. you're all a bunch of glorified rednecks. i just hope your assinine views are limited to your household, and not indicative of a much larger sentiment.

[CU Tiger]

RedndeR while I see where you are coming from, I dont think you can measure the emotional damage done to a kid by being different. No matter how you justify it, the kid will realize he has a diiferent family unit than all his classmates, and that will hurt and challenge him. Regardless of whther its better or worse, will be immaterial in some ways, the very fact of being different will have an impact.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by RendeR

What is the psychological impact of children of divorce? Seperation?

I would think that a loving family with morethan one adult for role models would be far superior to one in which there are only 2, or less if you consider the current divorce rate in this country.

You're presuming that 2 is better than anything, and I can't help but wonder why? Who decided that the diad was the proper form of family to raise children?

There is a saying, "It takes 2 people to make a child, but it takes a village to raise them."

For a healthy, mentally and emotionally healthy child there has to be more than 2 people in their life guiding them along, why can only 2 of those people fill the role of 'parent'?

Children need consistency and defined roles, or at least they do best when they have those situations. If the adults in a house are involved romantically in a tangled web, it is potentially very confusing as they try to determine the roles that everyone has and potentially damaging particularly for developing children, much more so than a divorce where there is the potential for consistency after the transition period of the divorce.

Obviously, if chaos continues after a divorce or a separation, that is also damaging, but if stability is found after a divorce/separation (and the kids aren't used as pawns between the divorced parents), kids can usually be very resilient.

[Eaglesfan27]

Dola -

Most kids can do a good job of "splitting" or turning 2 parents against each other if they don't communicate very carefully and present a united front. Another issue with multiple "parental" figures, is that the more adults in a house, the easier kids are going to be able to create division in the household rules. I see this often in families where a parent (usually the mother) lives with her parents and the grandparents have their own ideas about how to raise the child which are different from each other and different from the mother and it just creates a greater problem.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

you're a fucking kook. you have no place in society....

...i really can't stand people from upstate NY. you're all a bunch of glorified rednecks. i just hope your assinine views are limited to your household, and not indicative of a much larger sentiment.

Ahh thank you, you prove yet again how utterly worthless you really are. You have no valid arguments therefore slander is all you can come up with. Thank you. You keep proving what a piece of shit you really are.

Oh, just to be clear, Buffalo is not upstate, idiot, its Western NY. NYC is not the center of the universe.

My views are that everyone should be allowed to live as they choose without having to put up with ignorant fucks like yourself and can only HOPE its more than just my household. If you don't agree, you oughta figure out why.

So refreshing to see you never change.

[RendeR]

Look folks, I'm not saying its a perfect way for everyone. I'm just saying that every single person in this country, or the world for that matter, SHOULD have the right to live and raise their family as THEY see fit. While society will always be a breeding ground for conformity that doesn't make it the only right way.

Children raised in a lvoing family, will turn out just fine, just as those raised in not so loving familes will have issues.

EVERY child, normal home life or not, has to deal with other children being cruel, its how children are until taught better.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Dola -

Most kids can do a good job of "splitting" or turning 2 parents against each other if they don't communicate very carefully and present a united front. Another issue with multiple "parental" figures, is that the more adults in a house, the easier kids are going to be able to create division in the household rules. I see this often in families where a parent (usually the mother) lives with her parents and the grandparents have their own ideas about how to raise the child which are different from each other and different from the mother and it just creates a greater problem.

I am not arguing anything about what the child will do. This isn't about how the kid takes advantage of his or her situation. My position is simply that having more quality role models available should, turn out a more stable and well prepared child from the unit.

Will it? I dunno, I don't know anyone thats tried it. When it comes to children its not really the quantity that matters, but the quality. With greater quantity, the chances of getting some better quality should increase? yes?

From MY experience, there seems to be a higher quality in those who are accepting or open to alternative lifestyles, which I think comes directly from their ability to be open to new ideas and alternatives.

[Anthony]

i like how because you have some quasi-open marriage, now you're going to don a smoking jacket and stick a pipe in your mouth and start sharing your other crap views with no data suggesting an alternate way is just as beneficial.

"yes, i have an open marriage, and while we're on the subject - what's with these 2-parent households??? can't we think outside the box, people? where i come from i rather have 5 apples than 2 apples. more is always better."

in what world do you live where it's perfectly normal to have multiple parents? because if you come from such a household you are the perfect reason why such an arrangement doesn't work. so what else you got? i think you know you've stuck your foot in your mouth with this one which is why you're sidestepping my statements with your holier than thou "HA is being ignorant" crap. just admit you were just talking out of your ass and that's that.

why is it so hard for people on the internet to just acknowledge bullshit they write? why can't people just say "ok, ok, i made a pretty bold statement before, i know, i'm sorry i'll stick to what i know and try not to post such doodie." jeezus.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Look folks, I'm not saying its a perfect way for everyone. I'm just saying that every single person in this country, or the world for that matter, SHOULD have the right to live and raise their family as THEY see fit. While society will always be a breeding ground for conformity that doesn't make it the only right way.

Children raised in a lvoing family, will turn out just fine, just as those raised in not so loving familes will have issues.

EVERY child, normal home life or not, has to deal with other children being cruel, its how children are until taught better.

Not that it happens in every family like this obviously, but I've seen kids in "alternative" families who have become suicidal because of their parents choice of lifestyles and that was by far the predominant factor in their depression and suicide attempts. CU Tiger is correct that being from a family that is different can potentially cause immeasurable damage to kids from the exterior and interior pressures. Parents need to think carefully about how their choices truly effect their children and not just make selfish decisions for themselves.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Look folks, I'm not saying its a perfect way for everyone. I'm just saying that every single person in this country, or the world for that matter, SHOULD have the right to live and raise their family as THEY see fit.

i'm going to raise my kids to kick the shit out of kids who come from homes that have more than 2 parents.


and to shit on the lawns of people who have open marriages.


because, you know, i have the right to do so. adios, pantalones.

[st.cronin]

Weird threadjack.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Children need consistency and defined roles, or at least they do best when they have those situations. If the adults in a house are involved romantically in a tangled web, it is potentially very confusing as they try to determine the roles that everyone has and potentially damaging particularly for developing children, much more so than a divorce where there is the potential for consistency after the transition period of the divorce.

Obviously, if chaos continues after a divorce or a separation, that is also damaging, but if stability is found after a divorce/separation (and the kids aren't used as pawns between the divorced parents), kids can usually be very resilient.

Sorry, I missed this one...

Everything you describe here is based on the assumption that the alternative lifestyle is "confused" "chaotic" with 'Undefined roles". Why is it so improbable that for example a m/f/f triad has very consistant routines and a very solidly defined role setup? Why is it confusing? Why must it be chaotic?

I understand your argument, but It comes from an antagonistic viewpoint. You're assuming far more than you know to make such validations. Nothing keeps the multi partner family from being a perfectly calm, supportive atmoshpere. Why must everyone assume otherwise, beyond the fact that they don't know it or understand it in any way?

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Weird threadjack.

Not exactly what I was expecting.

[st.cronin]

To get back on topic, I am almost positive that my girlfriend has ordered stuff from Adam & Eve without my knowledge. Is that cheating? I dunno.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Not that it happens in every family like this obviously, but I've seen kids in "alternative" families who have become suicidal because of their parents choice of lifestyles and that was by far the predominant factor in their depression and suicide attempts. CU Tiger is correct that being from a family that is different can potentially cause immeasurable damage to kids from the exterior and interior pressures. Parents need to think carefully about how their choices truly effect their children and not just make selfish decisions for themselves.

Again, you're taking an antagonistic viewpoint to come at this from, you , as a therapist, are bound to see the negatives, but you truly do not and can not know how many others may be perfectly fine.

Bringing children into such a situation is a huge issue, no doubt about it, and I personally think that if everyone involved is putting the children first, then they will turn out just fine. You're point of people doing things like this for selfish reasons is valid, but again, you're sounding accusatory, as if thats all there is. I disagree with that.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

i like how because you have some quasi-open marriage, now you're going to don a smoking jacket and stick a pipe in your mouth and start sharing your other crap views with no data suggesting an alternate way is just as beneficial.

"yes, i have an open marriage, and while we're on the subject - what's with these 2-parent households??? can't we think outside the box, people? where i come from i rather have 5 apples than 2 apples. more is always better."

in what world do you live where it's perfectly normal to have multiple parents? because if you come from such a household you are the perfect reason why such an arrangement doesn't work. so what else you got? i think you know you've stuck your foot in your mouth with this one which is why you're sidestepping my statements with your holier than thou "HA is being ignorant" crap. just admit you were just talking out of your ass and that's that.

why is it so hard for people on the internet to just acknowledge bullshit they write? why can't people just say "ok, ok, i made a pretty bold statement before, i know, i'm sorry i'll stick to what i know and try not to post such doodie." jeezus.

Why do I threaten you so badly HA? You never have a valid argument for me. You spout hatred and ignorance as if you eat it for breakfast just to top off every day.

I have nothing to "admit" to here. I've stated my thoughts and my opinions and if they firghten you, feel free to stay holed up in your little flat on the island or where ever it is you hide and post on the internet. We won;t miss you. Really.

I think the big difference here HA is that I am sticking with what I know. I grew up in a broken home, I've dealt with the emotional bullshit, the cruelty of my peers. I've also learned that I'm better than that, And you, for that matter, because I CAN accept other peoples way of life and not treat them as outcasts just because they live differently than I do.

You're a sad pathetic little man.

[RendeR]

As for the threadjacking commentery, I suppose it has taken quite a tangent. So pelase go back to the original, unoriginal topic of post-monogamous stress disorder therapy

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Oh, just to be clear, Buffalo is not upstate, idiot, its Western NY. NYC is not the center of the universe.

this person, actually from upstate NY, agrees that your awful city is indeed part of upstate NY. not scientific or official, mind you, but it's straight from the horse's mouth (ie, someone who actually lives in the void called upstate ny). what you may consider to be upstate new york (adirondack region, niagra falls, etc) i consider "south canada".

[RendeR]

Ok, small lesson in New York State geography for you:

NYC. Long Island, area south of hudson, NY: The City, new York City, the shithole of the universe =)

Capitol Region west to the east side of Rochester and north to the Canadien border: Upstate NY

Area West of the 390 and the Finger Lakes: Western NY

And yes, we're sick to death of you ignorant fuckers labeling us as upstate

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Why do I threaten you so badly HA? You never have a valid argument for me. You spout hatred and ignorance as if you eat it for breakfast just to top off every day.

I have nothing to "admit" to here. I've stated my thoughts and my opinions and if they firghten you, feel free to stay holed up in your little flat on the island or where ever it is you hide and post on the internet. We won;t miss you. Really.

I think the big difference here HA is that I am sticking with what I know. I grew up in a broken home, I've dealt with the emotional bullshit, the cruelty of my peers. I've also learned that I'm better than that, And you, for that matter, because I CAN accept other peoples way of life and not treat them as outcasts just because they live differently than I do.

You're a sad pathetic little man.

i come from a single-parent household, raised by my mother. single-parent households are just as accepted as a two-parent household. no one made fun of me and i wasn't the victim of any grief. so help me God if i had 3 fathers and 2 moms. you're just talking crap right now. i'm going to ask you to please stop. i really don't know what research you've done that shows that as long as a kid comes from a loving household - no matter how many parents are involved - the kid will come out just fine.

what you may find to be a conformist society is just a template/guideline for what works best. 2 parents (whether biological or otherwise) works. it's when you start going outside that frame is when you introduce problems. do you drive on the left side of the road because you feel it's too "conformist" to drive on the correct side of the road that everyone else does? you can be as open and accepting as you want towards people who drive on the left side of the road but it doesn't mean what they're doing is the best thing.

sometimes it's ok to say "clearly, the way you live your life is outside the boundaries of what a normal civilized society finds acceptable". its ok to say that. you can still be open and accepting, you don't necessarily have to abandon common sense.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by RendeR

No but I'll see if I can get her into costume for the ren fest this summer!

This quote explains everything I need to know about RendeR

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

i come from a single-parent household, raised by my mother. single-parent households are just as accepted as a two-parent household. no one made fun of me and i wasn't the victim of any grief. so help me God if i had 3 fathers and 2 moms. you're just talking crap right now. i'm going to ask you to please stop. i really don't know what research you've done that shows that as long as a kid comes from a loving household - no matter how many parents are involved - the kid will come out just fine.

what you may find to be a conformist society is just a template/guideline for what works best. 2 parents (whether biological or otherwise) works. it's when you start going outside that frame is when you introduce problems. do you drive on the left side of the road because you feel it's too "conformist" to drive on the correct side of the road that everyone else does? you can be as open and accepting as you want towards people who drive on the left side of the road but it doesn't mean what they're doing is the best thing.

sometimes it's ok to say "clearly, the way you live your life is outside the boundaries of what a normal civilized society finds acceptable". its ok to say that. you can still be open and accepting, you don't necessarily have to abandon common sense.

And again, I have to say, I haven't said anything has been proven better in either way, I'm simply offering theoreticals, re-read my posts HA. I'm not condeming the nuclear household, I'm simply offering for discussion the possibility that other styles of household should work as well if not better. Since the proven facts are the Nuclear households fail 50% of the time.

I'm glad you didn't get tormented by other kids because you didn't have a dad around. I did, I was an outcast because of it. Do I want my kids to deal with that? of course not, but will they face stupidity from other children along those same lines sometime? probably. And when that happens its our jobs as their parents to help them learn and cope with such things. THAT above all is my point, that all things being equal (which we know they probably aren't) having more parental type persons in and around the home stands a better chance od the kids actually elarning and dealing with such things better.

My only beef with you is that you pop in here spouting definitatives that you can't prove. I'm not saying anything is BEST or correct for everyone. YOU are.

Again, just because society says something is good and right and proper does NOT make it so. And the fact that I believe that does not make me wrong, no matter how small minded you want to be about it.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

This quote explains everything I need to know about RendeR

You know, I have more than enough asshole to deal with in HA, why try to butt into his territory? Really Bug, this offends me.

[ThunderingHERD]

You know that scene that plays out on daytime talk shows all the time, where the skanky obese woman gets insulted by an audience member and then tries to convince everyone of how sexy she is? That's what this thread reminds me of.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by RendeR

You know, I have more than enough asshole to deal with in HA, why try to butt into his territory? Really Bug, this offends me.

Obviously I hit a nerve by why does this bother you and why did you take it negatively?

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Obviously I hit a nerve by why does this bother you and why did you take it negatively?

because it comes across as insulting people who attend rennasaince faires? Or those that actually dress for the occasion? I dunno, it just caught me wrong at the time. I apologize if it wasn't meant to.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Everything you describe here is based on the assumption that the alternative lifestyle is "confused" "chaotic" with 'Undefined roles". Why is it so improbable that for example a m/f/f triad has very consistant routines and a very solidly defined role setup? Why is it confusing? Why must it be chaotic?

Well it might not be chaotic, but you somewhat answer your own question with this:

Originally Posted by RendeR

Dealing with one loving relationship is hard, handling and maintaining more than one is just that much harder.

The single largest issue in multiple relationships, for myself, is honesty. Everyone involved (directly at least) must know and understand everyone elses place and expectations. Communication is key. Talk about how you feel, then talk about it some more, then when yer done talking about it, talk about it again. When you think you might puke from talking about it more, then you might be close to having talked about it enough =)

This quote to me is the strongest argument against open relationships (at least when kids are involved). Time is a scarce resource. It appears to me that having multiple relationships exponentially increases the amount of time the 'adults' need to devote to themselves so they can hash out/figure out/emotionally maintain their soap-opera lives. I can only imagine that this just takes away from the focus and attention that the children would otherwise receive.


(But I also agree with Render's point that people can choose to live however they want. I don't begrudge his lifestyle choice.)

[sabotai]

Tangent...

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Parents need to think carefully about how their choices truly effect their children and not just make selfish decisions for themselves.

This is actually one of the reasons I've decided to not have kids (aside from they annoy the fucking hell out of me). I'm not willing to give up my ability to live however I want to in order to raise a child. That way I can be, for lack of a better word I suppose, selfish.

That's not to say I think RendeR is doing anything wrong. I have no problem with it.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

It appears to me that having multiple relationships exponentially increases the amount of time the 'adults' need to devote to themselves so they can hash out/figure out/emotionally maintain their soap-opera lives. I can only imagine that this just takes away from the focus and attention that the children would otherwise receive.


(But I also agree with Render's point that people can choose to live however they want. I don't begrudge his lifestyle choice.)

I defeinitely see your point here, it actually shocks me how much soap opera bullshit actually goes on in life. It doe not happen in mine. If someone is playing drama-games they don't last in my life. I grew beyond all that angsty-crap a long time ago and I don't have time for it now. SO maybe that colors my opinion of this a lot, since I don't see that in my life, I don't consider it a factor in other peoples either, and I suppose I should knowing how our friends relationships spiral from time to time.

Good point to bring up LHK. Thank you.

Edited to add: The talking adn retalking etc etc still goes on, but we do that around and between dealing with the kids. We don't fight in front of them, When they're around they tend to be the focus of family activity. We keep our stuff for 1-1 time. just works best for us.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by RendeR

because it comes across as insulting people who attend rennasaince faires? Or those that actually dress for the occasion? I dunno, it just caught me wrong at the time. I apologize if it wasn't meant to.

I can understand you a bit more by knowing you partake in the Ren Faires. I did the Southern Faire for two years and met quite a few "kindred spirits". Some crazy carnies too but that's a whole other story.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

I can understand you a bit more by knowing you partake in the Ren Faires. I did the Southern Faire for two years and met quite a few "kindred spirits". Some crazy carnies too but that's a whole other story.

Ahh, see now that is my experience of havng people be negative to the idea exerting pressure on my reaction to your comment!

Excellent stuff! I wish I could quit my job in the late summer and work the sterling festival myself. We always have such a grea time up there. We spend the entire weekend camping and then attend the fest saturday and sunday.

Telle and I are actrually renewing our wedding vows this coming summer at the festival. Its our 5th anniversary this year so we thought i would be a nice special occasion kind of thing.

Again, sory for the instant reaction before. I'm not used to getting positive feedback for being a Ren-fest guy =)

[Oilers9911]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Again, just because society says something is good and right and proper does NOT make it so.

Actually, in almost all cases that is exactly what it means.

[Oilers9911]

Originally Posted by sabotai

This is actually one of the reasons I've decided to not have kids (aside from they annoy the fucking hell out of me). I'm not willing to give up my ability to live however I want to in order to raise a child. That way I can be, for lack of a better word I suppose, selfish.

Actually, although it may be selfish in a way, your way is a hell of a lot better than the parents that HAVE kids AND think they don't have to change how they live.

[BYU 14]

I find it interesting that most surveys/studies show 45-60% of Men have cheated in relationships at some time and 35-45% of Women have. But on FOFC just over 10% of the board that has responded has EVER cheated? Is this board population just made up of people with high moral values, are the cheaters not responding or are some of us fibbing?