Superping-Jesus

[druez]

Originally Posted by vexroid

I'll take that as a resounding "no".

Yes, I have read the book of revelations. Whats your point? Though I will admit, I've been focusing quite a bit of my time on the old testiment. I'm trying to figure out how christians determine what in the old testiment is ok and what is not ok.

Maybe you can help me with that?

[WSUCougar]

druez, are you looking for a justification to use pot? It sounds like you are cool with it on a spiritual level, so why belabor the point? Sounds like your issue is with the American legal system, not Christianity.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by vexroid

All you have been doing is baiting people.

If you feel that legitimate questions about fundamental Christian beliefs are baiting then you are way too defensive to even be involved in this discussion.

[CubsFan915]

Originally Posted by nfg22

ok last post before class. Good Question wigs. The thing is all those things u listed were in dueteronomy(sp?) That book was written to state the rules of their culture at the time and also to restate the Ten commandments.While we take some to heart we do not take others because they are not of our culture. While this can be veiwed as dodging what we dont like. Which all people do to an extent, like justifying their actions(Everyone even Christians have dont this.) But really God has made it clear to obey moral laws as so not to make a fool of yourself and make your religion and God look stupid if you would like I will write a commentary about every single one of those rules because that has been one of my biggest obsticales.

What about Leviticus? Anybody slaughtered a bull and made a burnt offering lately? My neoghbors always complain about the smell, and my apartment complex threatens to evict me because I don't have the altar 25 feet away from my building. How about the taking of slaves "thou shalt keep bondsmen, and bondsmaids" in Leviticus 25 (I believe)? Can I kidnap a family from out of town that looks like they are Muslims and make them my slaves?

[Bonegavel]

My biggest problem with Christianity (grew up attending a conservative baptist church - i.e., we didn't stand and wave our hands or speak out) is that the entire existence of man is already known to God, being that he is omniscient. So, God knew from the time of creation which humans would be going to heaven and which to hell. WTF? He knew that John Smith would never accept him and that he was doomed to hell before Genesis 1:1 was an ink stain on papyrus.

You can talk about free will all you want, but God already knows everything, so what is the point? It is like running a program that will print out the alphabet. Ho hum. Also, you can mention how "we can't understand all the thoughts of god" but yet we are supposed to determine on our own that without him (an invisible being much like NotMe from Family Circus), we are damned for all eternity?

Also, God is punishing all of humanity for the supposed mistakes of the very first human beings? Sounds like a caring and understanding god. Oh, and did I already mention that God is omniscient and therefore knew what Adam and Eve were up to? God is a good role model for parenting; From god to dad's, make sure you place the bottle of rat poison in the crib with the toddler. Warn them, but leave it there and see what happens, it will be a scream.

God is the Tim Taylor of creators. His entire creation exploded on him. First, Lucifer decides to ditch heaven for his own gig, and thereby create the reason for Hell (which wasn't initially meant for man). He didn't see that one coming? Then, the being created in his image takes up with the snake and damns ALL OF HUMANITY to lives of toil, Microsoft, and eventually HELL. Wow, what a deal. Was god busy setting up the Crab Nebula?

If God is as caring as loving as he is portrayed in the Bible, how could he allow one single human being to suffer for ETERNITY in Hell? We aren't talking a few weeks, or a month or a 100 years. For. Ever.

Must get back to work.

[sachmo71]

I'm still upset about the Catholic priests and the abuse cases. I'm having a very hard time making sense of the whole thing.

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by nfg22

If you know about Jesus yet dont believe then you will go to hell.

Question: Does baptism alter that equation anywhere?

Baptized - Believed in Christianity - Changed mind - became athiest - Died = I'm going to hell in a handbasket, correct?

[vex]

Originally Posted by druez

Yes, I have read the book of revelations. Whats your point? Though I will admit, I've been focusing quite a bit of my time on the old testiment. I'm trying to figure out how christians determine what in the old testiment is ok and what is not ok.

Maybe you can help me with that?

It's mainly the Books of Law (I believe that's what they are) that are no longer applicable as they were written for the Israelites.

[druez]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

druez, are you looking for a justification to use pot? It sounds like you are cool with it on a spiritual level, so why belabor the point? Sounds like your issue is with the American legal system, not Christianity.

Hmm, Not many christian leaders would agree with you on that topic. I just like to point out hypocracy when I see it.

[vex]

Originally Posted by CubsFan915

What about Leviticus? Anybody slaughtered a bull and made a burnt offering lately? My neoghbors always complain about the smell, and my apartment complex threatens to evict me because I don't have the altar 25 feet away from my building.

We no longer need to make sacrifices because the blood of Jesus covers all of our sins.

[druez]

Originally Posted by vexroid

It's mainly the Books of Law (I believe that's what they are) that are no longer applicable as they were written for the Israelites.

Correct, So then why do christians quote the old testiment to set the laws. For instance homosexuality?

[druez]

Is god all powerfull?

Is god all Knowing?

Is god all good?

Anyone?

[WSUCougar]

Originally Posted by VPI97

Question: Does baptism alter that equation anywhere?

Baptized - Believed in Christianity - Changed mind - became athiest - Died = I'm going to hell in a handbasket, correct?

I was raised Lutheran, and at least from that perspective I believe that baptism intends to carry a child (usually close to newborn) in Christ from birth through the act of confirmation, which is age 13 in the Lutheran church. Confirmation is the aforementioned "age of decision" or whatever you want to call it, wherein you make your choice to confirm your baptism and life as a Christian.

As for your equation, I think that whole rejection/atheism thing probably screws you over royally, VPI.

[CubsFan915]

Originally Posted by druez

DOLA

This week is my point out silly things in christianity week I think. There are a quite a few more like these.

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7

3. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations

4. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27.

Lev = Leviticus

Pretty fun stuff. Because we all know the bible isn't wrong!

No fair quoting directly from the piece on snopes...

[Drake]

Is god all powerfull?

Is god all Knowing?

Is god all good?

Anyone?

God is whatever He says He is.

Obviously, your plan here is to get someone to say "Why yes, God is all of those things!", then you'll come up with a bunch of justifications for why God is *not* those things. The bit you forget is that you are human and God is God. You can't judge the motives or actions of God in their entirety or in context because you have a grasp of neither. You can't see the full picture, only your puny little part. If you assume anything else, you are saying that God is not God, only a sort of super-human entity.

So believe what God says about Himself or not, but don't play stupid, sophomoric pseudo-logical games and pretend to be wise. I may not be a very good Xian, and I may disagree with the fundamentalist contingent on this board quite a bit, but at least most of them make an honest attempt to provide serious answers to serious questions. They deserve at least a little respect for making something as intensely personal as their religious faith vulnerable to public assault.

And if you don't believe in God at all, why work so hard to discredit Him? It's pathological to argue against things you don't believe exist.

[WSUCougar]

Originally Posted by druez

Is god all powerfull?

Is god all Knowing?

Is god all good?

Anyone?

I'll take the bait.

Yes
Yes
Yes

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

If God is supremely perfect, how can he create something with imperfections (humanity)? The very definition of perfection is that everything something does is perfect, it cannot create things that have imperfections.

The grand old debate. This was one of the main questions asked by the pagans in the early centuries. Celsus asked, If God is perfect, and perfection cannot change, then how is it that God via Jesus suffered?

What I think is at issue here is ontology vs. existentialism. Change as the result of experiences does not change ones being, if anything the being becomes more so (complete/aware). In other words, there is nothing we can do to change are human-ness, despite constant growing and experienceing. ex. children, and thier love, often further complete ones notion of self. it is like this type of love that we give and recieve from God that results in a further enriching by both parties. God gets something out of our love towards Him and our love towards another, that changing does not change the nature of God, or man. God created perfect humans, or humans how could be no more human.


BTW, To fully confuse, I think stubby's quote would make a very nice Christmas card, but other than that.... I think we all know what we should do, it would be a cold day when someone proclaims we should do the opposite of what was said.

[CubsFan915]

Originally Posted by vexroid

All you have been doing is baiting people.

Originally Posted by Subby

I believe in and love God.

The best examples of God on this Earth are seen in nature, my wife and my four sons.

God is compassionate and forgiving. He is NOT jealous. Jealousy is a human flaw.

God realized that when he created humans he was creating something that was incapable of perfection and to that end we will all likely join him in the afterlife.

Your mission in this life is a simple one. First, enjoy life. It is a grand gift. If you have children, be a good parent. If you are married, be a good spouse. Love your family unconditionally. Be a good neighbor and volunteer selflessly in your community. Respect and exalt in nature.

Realize your imperfections and take responsibility for your actions. But don't feel the need to take responsibility for everyone else's.

LOVE LIFE.

See you in Heaven.

BUZZZZZZ. Thanks for playing!

[Bonegavel]

I've been doing a lot of thinking in the last few years of my life regarding this very topic and have finally come to the conclusion that I am a Deist. I believe that there is a higher power, but he was a set-it-and-forget-it god. He created this clambake and went on permanent vacation.

[CubsFan915]

Originally Posted by druez

Yes, I have read the book of revelations. Whats your point? Though I will admit, I've been focusing quite a bit of my time on the old testiment. I'm trying to figure out how christians determine what in the old testiment is ok and what is not ok.

Maybe you can help me with that?

From my understanding (which is more years ago than I care to admit to in Catechism class) the Gospel is the dividing line. Everything pre-Jesus is OT, while everything starting with Jesus' birth is NT. I'll gladly stand corrected if my memory is faulty.

[revrew]

Originally Posted by druez

So, we are assuming that god realized the old testiment wasn't working. The rules were to harsh and he made a mistake. So in turn he changed his mind and decided to try a different approach?

I suggest you read my post at the top of page 3 for some insight on this, but since I didn't have to go as quickly as I thought, I've got time to answer one more.

There isn't any "changing of mind," since the prophets very clearly and verbatim foretold of God's plan in Christ. First, he would give a chosen people a structure whereby following it would create a harmonious and holy nation. But, full well knowing that people couldn't hack it, he had a better plan in mind all along--the plan of indwelling, living inside (through the Holy Spirit--sorry, don't mean to get so "churchy" in my lingo) people and helping them live lives of love.

First, however, he allowed history to demonstrate mankind's complete inability to follow Him or build a godly society on their own. People since Adam have been so goddamned* sure of themselves, He said, "Fine. You want to do it on your own, go for it. Here's how you can do it. Go." That's the Old Testament.

Even today, people are still so goddamned* sure of their own ability to create Utopia without God that He still says, "Fine. Go for it. Do it your own way. I'll give you 7000 years (and counting) to get it right." He's still waiting...

But meanwhile, knowing there are some who will give up self-governance to follow a better way, he provided for it in Jesus. That's the New Testament.

As for his "schizophrenia", much of the warfare in the O.T. was to carve out a territory for his chosen people to live in peace. If you read the stories, however, the Israelites refused to follow his plans. They left the Palestinians alone, rather than conquering them. Then they made alliances with other countries. They totally messed up the plan. And this brought more bloodshed.

God is no less powerful or capable of dealing blows in the New Testament than He is the Old. But He chose to change how he dishes them up. Now that history has proven man will not be ruled from the outside, no matter how big and bad God's threat of punishment, he choses to reign from the inside. Through willing people who relinquish self-governance.

What happened to his wrath? His judgement? He is still mad as hell about every rape, murder, and injury committed. He is mad as hell that Christians don't get off their affluent, lazy behinds and do something about injustice in this world. And he is storing it all up to pour out in a place called hell. The Hitlers will get theirs, oh, yes, they'll get theirs. The only question is, you want a piece of that?

If God really was schizophrenic, we wouldn't have to fear Him at all. We'd all be in "grace time"--do whatever you want! But that wrath is still there. That demand for justice is still there. The great part of it is, he's holding off until as many people as can will allow someone else (Jesus) to take the punishment they've got coming.

It's not schizophrenic; it's simply a step by step story of God's plan to restore humanity. First, he gave us a choice. We chose evil. Then, he allowed us to try to fix it on our own. We messed up again. Then, he said, "Let me help you." That's where we are now. And finally, he'll say, "That's it. I'm wiping this sleazy world of hatred and evil and hurt right out of existence and starting over with a perfect world." That's heaven. That's yet to come (save for those who die now and go early.)

(*use of word "goddamned" intentional, as it's not in vain, but meant in every way.)

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

As for your equation, I think that whole rejection/atheism thing probably screws you over royally, VPI.

I was raised in an Episcopal church...They tend to alter the rules as they go along, so I think I may have a loophole or something I can fall back on

[Bonegavel]

Originally Posted by CubsFan915

From my understanding (which is more years ago than I care to admit to in Catechism class) the Gospel is the dividing line. Everything pre-Jesus is OT, while everything starting with Jesus' birth is NT. I'll gladly stand corrected if my memory is faulty.

I think he meant which parts of the old testatment are worth following and which are not. I.e., there is stuff in there about not counting your nose hairs on Thursdays, and other stuff about loving people or something.

[CubsFan915]

Originally Posted by vexroid

We no longer need to make sacrifices because the blood of Jesus covers all of our sins.

I'm certainly not trying to be contradictory, but can anyone point this passage out for me?

[CubsFan915]

Originally Posted by Bonegavel

I think he meant which parts of the old testatment are worth following and which are not. I.e., there is stuff in there about not counting your nose hairs on Thursdays, and other stuff about loving people or something.

Whoops. My bad. Thanks, Gavel. (Or do you prefer Bone? )

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

What I think is at issue here is ontology vs. existentialism. Change as the result of experiences does not change ones being, if anything the being becomes more so (complete/aware). In other words, there is nothing we can do to change are human-ness, despite constant growing and experienceing. ex. children, and thier love, often further complete ones notion of self. it is like this type of love that we give and recieve from God that results in a further enriching by both parties. God gets something out of our love towards Him and our love towards another, that changing does not change the nature of God, or man. God created perfect humans, or humans how could be no more human.

I understand what you're saying, but you're saying that to believe im God, we have to feel humanity is as perfect as it will get, and I just can't believe that.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

I think stubby's quote would make a very nice Christmas card, but other than that....

Easy there...stubby is my porn name. I use Subby when I am in dignified company.

[WSUCougar]

Originally Posted by Subby

I use Subby when I am in dignified company.

...thus his use of "stubby"...

[Subby]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

...thus his use of "stubby"...

Whoops! Didn't see you over there fiddling with the stereo.

My bad.

[revrew]

Originally Posted by CubsFan915

I'm certainly not trying to be contradictory, but can anyone point this passage out for me?

Heb 7:27 Unlike the other high priests, he (Jesus) does not need to offer sacrifices day after day...He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

Heb 10:1-18 "The Law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming...those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins...and by that will we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all...and where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin."

There are others...

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by revrew

First, however, he allowed history to demonstrate mankind's complete inability to follow Him or build a godly society on their own. People since Adam have been so goddamned* sure of themselves, He said, "Fine. You want to do it on your own, go for it. Here's how you can do it. Go." That's the Old Testament.

Uhmm...no. You can't reduce the history of the Jewish peoples as a futile attempt at the expense of God's stubborness. Knowing God is a process, one that I think from juddging this thread has still a ways to go. So to say that it was all bad before, then poof, all was set right is a bit much. The process of the Bible is a process of realizing God's love. The problems came in how the show this love and what having this love meant. One big hurdle was getting over the fact that God's love and being obident to His laws does not prevent suffering. This was certainitly put to rest with Jesus (pun). I think it's too much to say that God tried diffrent approaches rather than the Bible is a process of us trying diffrent approaches on God. Also, it seems that the Holy Spirit, which was always present, spoke in the language which would be heard the loudest, whether it be formal rules, exile, or great myths like David, Jonnah and Job.

[AENeuman]

Sorry Subby.
Easy Mac, I do not mean to say humanity is perfect esp. if you say the actions make the person. I'm saying humans are fully human and God is fully God despite the experiences and change that may occur via time. Going with my metaphor, most humans have never felt the love from their children (God), and are thus not growing as much as they could be. But they are still human, just not even clost to their capcity.

[revrew]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

Uhmm...no. You can't reduce the history of the Jewish peoples as a futile attempt at the expense of God's stubborness. Knowing God is a process... The process of the Bible is a process of realizing God's love... I think it's too much to say that God tried diffrent approaches rather than the Bible is a process of us trying diffrent approaches on God.

From what I've read into your comments, I think I agree completely. My "synopsis" of "The Grand Narrative" was intentionally painted quickly, with broad strokes. It has taken God 66 books and another 2000 years of history to tell this story. If I try to do it in 3 paragraphs, I'm going to overgeneralize BIG TIME. You caught me on overgeneralizing.

I'm not sure who's to blame for it, but you're right on saying that we have only related to God in part, and then in increasing parts, through history. I didn't mean to imply there was a "boom-it's all good moment". In fact, we're still activley messing up the redemption story (church history--c'mon), and the only boom-it's all good moment is yet to come.

[druez]

Originally Posted by revrew

I suggest you read my post at the top of page 3 for some insight on this, but since I didn't have to go as quickly as I thought, I've got time to answer one more.

There isn't any "changing of mind," since the prophets very clearly and verbatim foretold of God's plan in Christ. First, he would give a chosen people a structure whereby following it would create a harmonious and holy nation. But, full well knowing that people couldn't hack it, he had a better plan in mind all along--the plan of indwelling, living inside (through the Holy Spirit--sorry, don't mean to get so "churchy" in my lingo) people and helping them live lives of love.

First, however, he allowed history to demonstrate mankind's complete inability to follow Him or build a godly society on their own. People since Adam have been so goddamned* sure of themselves, He said, "Fine. You want to do it on your own, go for it. Here's how you can do it. Go." That's the Old Testament.

Even today, people are still so goddamned* sure of their own ability to create Utopia without God that He still says, "Fine. Go for it. Do it your own way. I'll give you 7000 years (and counting) to get it right." He's still waiting...

But meanwhile, knowing there are some who will give up self-governance to follow a better way, he provided for it in Jesus. That's the New Testament.

As for his "schizophrenia", much of the warfare in the O.T. was to carve out a territory for his chosen people to live in peace. If you read the stories, however, the Israelites refused to follow his plans. They left the Palestinians alone, rather than conquering them. Then they made alliances with other countries. They totally messed up the plan. And this brought more bloodshed.

God is no less powerful or capable of dealing blows in the New Testament than He is the Old. But He chose to change how he dishes them up. Now that history has proven man will not be ruled from the outside, no matter how big and bad God's threat of punishment, he choses to reign from the inside. Through willing people who relinquish self-governance.

What happened to his wrath? His judgement? He is still mad as hell about every rape, murder, and injury committed. He is mad as hell that Christians don't get off their affluent, lazy behinds and do something about injustice in this world. And he is storing it all up to pour out in a place called hell. The Hitlers will get theirs, oh, yes, they'll get theirs. The only question is, you want a piece of that?

If God really was schizophrenic, we wouldn't have to fear Him at all. We'd all be in "grace time"--do whatever you want! But that wrath is still there. That demand for justice is still there. The great part of it is, he's holding off until as many people as can will allow someone else (Jesus) to take the punishment they've got coming.

It's not schizophrenic; it's simply a step by step story of God's plan to restore humanity. First, he gave us a choice. We chose evil. Then, he allowed us to try to fix it on our own. We messed up again. Then, he said, "Let me help you." That's where we are now. And finally, he'll say, "That's it. I'm wiping this sleazy world of hatred and evil and hurt right out of existence and starting over with a perfect world." That's heaven. That's yet to come (save for those who die now and go early.)

(*use of word "goddamned" intentional, as it's not in vain, but meant in every way.)

If made this post quite often. This was the best answer I've ever seen. I might not agree with it, but I can definately follow your logic.

[druez]

Originally Posted by Drake

God is whatever He says He is.

Obviously, your plan here is to get someone to say "Why yes, God is all of those things!", then you'll come up with a bunch of justifications for why God is *not* those things. The bit you forget is that you are human and God is God. You can't judge the motives or actions of God in their entirety or in context because you have a grasp of neither. You can't see the full picture, only your puny little part. If you assume anything else, you are saying that God is not God, only a sort of super-human entity.

So believe what God says about Himself or not, but don't play stupid, sophomoric pseudo-logical games and pretend to be wise. I may not be a very good Xian, and I may disagree with the fundamentalist contingent on this board quite a bit, but at least most of them make an honest attempt to provide serious answers to serious questions. They deserve at least a little respect for making something as intensely personal as their religious faith vulnerable to public assault.

And if you don't believe in God at all, why work so hard to discredit Him? It's pathological to argue against things you don't believe exist.

I never said I didn't believe in god. I believe in a constant force of the universe. The first "cause". I do not believe there is a god that sits in judgement of us. I do believe there is an universal truth for lack of a better word.

So, I do believe in a higher power, but I don't believe god is has human characteristics or emotions. Which is the number one reason I don't believe the bible. It was written by Humans, to controll humans. The bible is filled full of human emotions and situations.

[Easy Mac]

what caused the first cause?

[druez]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

I'll take the bait.

Yes
Yes
Yes

While Drake might think I might try and descredit god. I am inclined to ask the following questions, or show you the paradox of these answers and as they apply to earth today.

God knows Evil Exists, because he is all knowing.
God wants to destroy that evil, because he is all good.
God is all powerful so he could destroy this evil.

If these statements are true, then evil should not exist. He has the power to destroy it, knows its there and is all good so he must destroy it by your thinking.

[druez]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

what caused the first cause?

I wish I knew. I would imagine this constant force has always been around. The question is what existed at first how can their be a beginning to time, what was before that beginning etc...

I just think its as nieve for us to look at a judging god for all of our answers as it was for the Indians to say hmmm Sun God, or Moon God or Earth god etc....

There is a balance in the universe good and evil are relative.

[Easy Mac]

or is it that the ultimate good can only be known by the evil.

If we didn't know how bad things can be, would we ever really know when things are good?

[revrew]

Originally Posted by druez

While Drake might think I might try and descredit god. I am inclined to ask the following questions, or show you the paradox of these answers and as they apply to earth today.

God knows Evil Exists, because he is all knowing.
God wants to destroy that evil, because he is all good.
God is all powerful so he could destroy this evil.

If these statements are true, then evil should not exist. He has the power to destroy it, knows its there and is all good so he must destroy it by your thinking.

Your logical fallacy in this a=b=c equation is with b. You suggest that an all good god must necessarily want to destroy all evil (or) that because he wants to, he necessarily will. The simple existence of a reason for evil, which would be "better" than eliminating it, makes your equation mute and your conclusion incorrect.

The previous poster who suggested this was a silly logical game was correct. But other than that, I won't give you crap. I've appreciated your other questions and contributions to this discussion.

[fhasumi]

Didn't we all have this discussion before in the other thread?

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by druez

DOLA
This week is my point out silly things in christianity week I think. There are a quite a few more like these.
1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9
2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7
3. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations
4. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27.

Lev = Leviticus
Pretty fun stuff. Because we all know the bible isn't wrong!

Main thing when reading the bible is to take things in context and not simply pick statements or contradictions to make a point.

Yes much of the old testament is rather violent and their laws and rules are very strange in relation to modern day society.

However the rules set down by Jesus as the way to live in the new testament supercede any given in the old testament.

Why did God require a revised rule set you ask if he's infallible? ... (been here, asked this myself - came up with this possible conclusion) ....

I think of it along the lines of human society not being at a level of being able to follow a more stingent/advanced (delete as you feel applicable) rule set during the times of the old testament, once they were able to do so a new set of rules were given out.

This is equivalent to the difference in expectations that a child has of its children, when very young you let them get away with simpler cruder rules than when they are older and can understand more.

NB. No answers which I might post are in these discussions are 'true' (and indeed I won't even claim they'll make sense to everyone who reads them) - they are simply the most rational explanation I could discern for the cases in question.

[fhasumi]

Technically, according to the Bible, it's illegal to "allow your seed to spill upon the ground."

That would mean that every farmer in the world is going to Hell.

[Marc Vaughan]

God knows Evil Exists, because he is all knowing.
God wants to destroy that evil, because he is all good.
God is all powerful so he could destroy this evil.
If these statements are true, then evil should not exist. He has the power to destroy it, knows its there and is all good so he must destroy it by your thinking.

Ok look at this another way, when you have a child it is born innocent - if that child then does something you don't like do you kill it?

God gave mankind free will, how man used it was up to him*.

God is the 'father' of humanity, even if humans are all sinful/evil in nature should be simply dispose of the race? - or should he take a more peaceful approach and give us the chance to redeem ourselves in the same way that we'd expect a good parent to.

According to the bible God has given humans that chance by the death of Jesus. Thus God (again according to the bible) is destroying evil, but first he's giving man a chance to redeem himself ... this fits in fairly neatly with your questions imho.

*There's the seperate conflict of God giving free-will which I'll go over in my next post.

[Marc Vaughan]

(I'll apologise in advance for this post - I've thought twice about posting it as its not something which I can generally explain coherantly person to person, so God knows how badly I'll manage it at 00:19 in the morning via. the medium of a message board)

One of the things which bugged me for a long time was the contradiction in people having been given free will, it goes along these lines:

Proviso:
* God is omnipotent

Thus:
* God knows everything thats going to happen
* God can do anything

Problem:
If God knows everything thats going to happen then everything is predetermined.
If everything is predetermined then how can anyone have 'free will'.

This is something which bugged me for a long time, as with many of my problems I came to a conclusion which I was content with by drawing conclusions with programming (sad but true).

Ok, bear with me - this is probably going to ramble.

* God knows the past, present and future of everything.
* God gives people free will, at this point he knows all of the possible past, present and futures that can occur - but individual free wills are as yet undetermined (in fact in my theory all possibilities happen as this removes any restrictions on Gods omnipotence, your free will is actually determining which of an infine number of realities which you are in - yeah I know this has gone a tad surreal now).

My programming analogy with this - its CM based (hurrah )

To set the scene let me introduce the players:
* God (played by the CM match engine, sorry God its an analogy ok? )
* The universe/time (played by the fixture result, yeah I know its stretching things somewhat)
* You (played by errr you, should have warned you that reading this might involve having to purchase a copy of CM (cough) )

The CM match engine plays the entire match out before a user starts a match (ie. it knows what is going to happen before it has done so).

The result is thus pre-determined, however 'you' the player have free-will and can depart from this pre-determined path at any point by making a tactical change and unknown to yourself changing a pre-determined reality you didn't realise existed.

(to take my analogy further I could re-engineer the CM match engine to work out every possible change a human could make and pregenerate them in advance (taking only possibly a year or so ), hence creating for the purposes of this analogy the alternate realities I mentioned earlier.)

[Marc Vaughan]

If God is as caring as loving as he is portrayed in the Bible, how could he allow one single human being to suffer for ETERNITY in Hell? We aren't talking a few weeks, or a month or a 100 years. For. Ever.

As I mentioned in the previous thread many peoples interpretation of "Hell" isn't fire and brimstone and is simply the concept of missing out of an eternity shared in communion with God.

Thus in itself "Hell" might be pleasurable to a person, however compared to "Heaven" it would be intolerable.

The choice between "Heaven" and "Hell" is then down to an individual choosing to know God or not ... and thus isn't God being 'evil' by casting someone into Hell, its a choice they make out of their free-will.

[Buccaneer]

I am overjoyed to see such great discussions. Blessings to all of my fellow believers for presenting the complexities of faith, sin and God's Words.

(bro, you are showing off again )

[Buccaneer]

Marc, great post in coming up with an analogy of one of the toughest theological thoughts.

To me, the omniscience (sp?) God is our Father, we are His children. Just like some of us are fathers to our children, we want our child to learn, to grow and to mature. Sometimes we have to correct wrongs and enforce consequences of actions,while sometimes we just stand back and let the child discover right/wrong on his/her own (usually learning from doing some bad). The trials and tribulations we all experience are part of the learning experience. Even though our Father knows the outcome, we have to experience it ourselves and learn from it so we can grow closer to Him. That is why the parable of the Prodigal Son is my favorite.

[CubsFan915]

Originally Posted by revrew

Heb 7:27 Unlike the other high priests, he (Jesus) does not need to offer sacrifices day after day...He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

Heb 10:1-18 "The Law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming...those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins...and by that will we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all...and where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin."

There are others...

Thanks, rev.

[CubsFan915]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Main thing when reading the bible is to take things in context and not simply pick statements or contradictions to make a point.

Yes much of the old testament is rather violent and their laws and rules are very strange in relation to modern day society.

However the rules set down by Jesus as the way to live in the new testament supercede any given in the old testament.

Why did God require a revised rule set you ask if he's infallible? ... (been here, asked this myself - came up with this possible conclusion) ....

I think of it along the lines of human society not being at a level of being able to follow a more stingent/advanced (delete as you feel applicable) rule set during the times of the old testament, once they were able to do so a new set of rules were given out.

This is equivalent to the difference in expectations that a child has of its children, when very young you let them get away with simpler cruder rules than when they are older and can understand more.

NB. No answers which I might post are in these discussions are 'true' (and indeed I won't even claim they'll make sense to everyone who reads them) - they are simply the most rational explanation I could discern for the cases in question.

Hey - don't you have a sports sim to design? Quit talking about God and pound out more code!