Soccer Thread 2015-16

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Grover

MLS is considered the 55th best league in the world per the 2015 league ratings.

While I would agree we are much closer to 55 than to Bishop's 2nd tier, I would be surprised if we were that low. There's a fair bit of talent in the MLS, even if there isn't much world class talent.

If I had been guessing, I would have put the MLS around 25th or so.

[MrBug708]

I would imagine some of the stronger teams could participate strongly in some of the weaker "top" level leagues, but the bottom ones would be pretty bad in those leagues

[sovereignstar v2]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

Source? I'd like to see that list. Brutal.

This must be the list -- THE WORLD’S STRONGEST NATIONAL LEAGUE 2014 | IFFHS

Lots to laugh about on this list, especially as it seems to only take the top league of each country into account. There are obviously some countries whose 2nd league is better than MLS. From English fans perspective, they seem to rate MLS as on par with League One (3rd tier), which is probably accurate.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar v2

This must be the list -- THE WORLD’S STRONGEST NATIONAL LEAGUE 2014 | IFFHS

Lots to laugh about on this list, especially as it seems to only take the top league of each country into account. There are obviously some countries whose 2nd league is better than MLS. From English fans perspective, they seem to rate MLS as on par with League One (3rd tier), which is probably accurate.

MLS has two things going against it for any ranking like that - A) MLS is much more even than most Euro leagues, so any ranking that's based on how the top teams do in international competition will underrate us (look at Scotland - because Celtic is really good they look great on these rankings but Celtic absolutely eviscerates in-league competition. I'm sure that's also the case for some ridiculously small countries like Moldova or Cyprus ranking above us. Costa Rica too with Saprissa, etc) B) I haven't paid much attention to it in years, but I remember most of the international competition happening at out of season times for MLS teams going against in-form Mexican or CA teams.

You can even compare individual players who have played in both. It's not perfect because they can play a slightly different role, but to use the Eredivisie as an example Michael Bradley put up 16 goals in a season. Jozy Altidore had 23. I'm not going to use those vs their MLS stats to argue that MLS is better, but it's pretty clear to me there's not this huge difference Eurosnobs like to claim.

[MrBug708]

Round 4:

Group A: Mexico, Honduras, Curaçao/El Salvador, Canada/Belize
Group B: Costa Rica, Panama, Grenada/Haiti, Jamaica/Nicaragua
Group C: USA, Trinidad & Tobago, St. Vincent & the Grenadines/Aruba, Antigua & Barbuda/Guatemala

[bob]

postscript: We came in 4th place.

[RainMaker]

Fire Jurgen

[TroyF]

I know it is preseason. Still, Arsenal played some pretty damned exciting soccer today. They really, really look good.

[MrBug708]

US has never gone winless back to back games in the Gold Cup. Until today

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Fire Jurgen

Ya know, I'm fine with this. Fire him. The team isn't progressing and we aren't seeing the improvement we should see.

That said, I don't know how any manager improves this team. I watched the gold cup. Every team we played (save Cuba) had better athletes and were better on the ball. At some point, we need to develop actual talent. Like maybe a competent #10?

I just don't see this team winning anymore than it has with anyone. Unless we can get the match officials who reffed the last two Mexico games on a permanent basis, this team will stay right where they are.

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by TroyF

I know it is preseason. Still, Arsenal played some pretty damned exciting soccer today. They really, really look good.

Preseason, but always nice to see a team in-form. Getting jazzed.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

Preseason, but always nice to see a team in-form. Getting jazzed.

This is the first season in a long, long time I feel fairly comfortable to start the year. This is the third year in a row we didn't lose a key player to another club. (Love Sagna, but I wasn't crushed that he left)

I believe another player will be signed. Another top notch player. . . but just looking at the team as it stands now, there is a ridiculous amount of talent. The only worry for me is who backs up the Coq. I'm not sure I trust Arteta against a big club.

Last year we went into the year with way too many exhausted players. The year before Ozil came in late and had to adjust to the EPL. Finally, we are starting a year healthy, ready and confident. Not saying they are going to win the title, but I think the guys will contend for it this year.

A good feeling.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

MLS has two things going against it for any ranking like that - A) MLS is much more even than most Euro leagues, so any ranking that's based on how the top teams do in international competition will underrate us (look at Scotland - because Celtic is really good they look great on these rankings but Celtic absolutely eviscerates in-league competition. I'm sure that's also the case for some ridiculously small countries like Moldova or Cyprus ranking above us. Costa Rica too with Saprissa, etc) B) I haven't paid much attention to it in years, but I remember most of the international competition happening at out of season times for MLS teams going against in-form Mexican or CA teams.

The quoted ranking list is plain simply a horrible representation of reality. I used to take the IFFHS somewhat serious, but quite clearly is their rankings list broken and has IFFHS become a bit of a joke. There's no way the level of play in the Moldovan league is on par with the Polish, let alone should it rank higher than the Danish or Serbian. Cyprus is a different story, there appears to be a lot of money their, even drawing players in from more established leagues to simply increase their bank balance.

I'm tempted to think the real experts are those that played in the MLS and played in other leagues as well. Somebody like Ronald Waterreus, for example. Based on that, I'm sensing that MLS is probably somewhere around 20-25th in overall talent.

At the same time, who cares? If the quality of play is good and the games are enjoyable, what does it matter whether a couple of number crunchers have decided that the Moldovan league is 40th in the world and Iceland's league is only 69th? The Italian Serie A remains to be boring for those that prefer naïve attacking football, while the Eredivisie remains laughable for those that enjoy a good catenaccio.

[cthomer5000]

Klinsmann is a complete fraud.

What's really hilarious is that we are clearly moving backwards under him, yet the global media generally believes he is doing great work here and we have improved.

Confirmation bias is real, and powerful.

[cthomer5000]

Re: league rankings

Criteria is really important here. I would say leagues like Portugal and the Netherlands CLEARLY have better top talents, etc... but they are less competitive leagues generally.

Aside from the worst 1-2 teams each year (which tend to be dumpster fires), there isn't a huge gap between the #1 and #18 MLS team.

It also matters if you're including criteria like stadiums, etc (MLS would do very well here... while they would have been terrible in that regard a decade ago). Also - peoples paychecks actually make it to their bank account. We don't have the "not actually getting paid" issues that are rampant in South America, and even fairly present in European leagues (even some of the major ones). Stability has to account for something.

I guess I would say we are very solidly a 3rd tier league right now. Only definitely behind the really big European leagues, and the the 2nd tier European leagues (stuff like Portugal, Netherlands, etc).

I would take us over stuff like the Swedish and Norwegian leagues though.

And i think by the end of the decade we will be right up there with those leagues I just described as 2nd tier.

I think the transition from where we're at now to just behind the truly elite leagues is going to come very fast. And from there, the sky is the limit.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

I think the transition from where we're at now to just behind the truly elite leagues is going to come very fast. And from there, the sky is the limit.

Expecting to import a lot of players are ya?

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Expecting to import a lot of players are ya?

1. Yes, and the league keeps showing an increasing willingness to do so. It will be a mix of old dudes and guy who are still mid-career.

2. I think the academy output is going to grow exponentially in a few years. We're only now starting to see the first few guys really trickle into the league from the club academies (most of which didn't even exist a decade ago).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

1. Yes, and the league keeps showing an increasing willingness to do so. It will be a mix of old dudes and guy who are still mid-career.

2. I think the academy output is going to grow exponentially in a few years. We're only now starting to see the first few guys really trickle into the league from the club academies (most of which didn't even exist a decade ago).

I'm 48.

I'll be dead of old age before there's enough top level home grown talent to make MLS a first tier league.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

I think the transition from where we're at now to just behind the truly elite leagues is going to come very fast. And from there, the sky is the limit.

No, it isnt. IMO there is a definite ceiling, unless things change drastically.

Something none has mentioned when talking about MLS: There is no continental competition worth speaking of. This works for the other leagues in the US because of infinite advantages in other areas and their long-earned prestige, but none of them work for soccer (there´s more money, more exposure, more prestige etc ...)

Aside from that: As long as way more than half your roster is playing for less money than a 3rd division player in England or Germany makes, how do you expect the talent level to drastically improve ?

MLS could become a lot more popular within the States because the lack of continental competition is not an issue in comparison and without salary restrictions you could raise the level of foreign players (but again, not infinitely), but that does not take into account the uphill battle competing with NHL/NFL/MLB/NBA.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'm 48.

I'll be dead of old age before there's enough top level home grown talent to make MLS a first tier league.

There isn't enough home grown talent to make the EPL a top tier league either if we're being honest. But the EPL has by far the most money of any European league, which is why it's #1 (by a hair over Spain/Germany, which have bigger and better domestic talent bases.)

WhoMario brings up a great point with the Champions League, and I don't know what the solution to that is. Either getting involved in Copa Sudamerica (are Mexican teams in that? I thought we were getting involved a little) or hoping planes go faster so US teams could actually play in the Champions League etc. Travel time/jet lag would suck, but I think that's actually feasible for East Coast teams right now... Unfortunately not a chance for an LA or Seattle so it's a non-starter for the league as a whole. And you know Europe would jump at the chance to include the US because it'll enable them to get more money from the American market. You also don't need to be in the Champions League to be in that 2nd tier. Yes it means you'll always be a feeder league which rubs some people the wrong way but I'd love to be a feeder league that gets lots of young South Americans or Africans.

However, I don't think competing with the big 3.5 sports here really matters. It hurts for building the talent base, but in $$$ terms the US is so much bigger, and so much richer than most countries that it could be the 4th/5th sport here and still have a TV contract that dwarfs, say, Belgium, or Portugal. (Just look at World Cup rights fees.) The main thing keeping MLS from throwing around similar money to those leagues as a whole is that they were so terrified of NASL pt. 2 that they've prevented those sugar daddy owners from spending as they'd like. This has loosened a lot in the past few years alone, and I think will really change the next 1-2 CBA's (although I don't think they'll ever get rid of the salary cap completely.) I mean, look at Ligue 1 attendance and TV rights figures vs MLS... They'd be nothing without owners willing to lose obscene amounts of $$$.

[whomario]

I am just now watching the nycfc Vs Orlando game right now btw and like in basically every mls game i watch, it is startingly easy to spot the difference in Talent between the Top players and the “Rest“.

Really fun game in any case

[MIJB#19]

Quite the spectacle!
Edit: speaking of NYC - Orlando

[whomario]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Quite the spectacle!
Edit: speaking of NYC - Orlando

And what an ending Kaka hitting the Post in a last Minute FK, then counter attack and 5:3 ny

Larin looks interesting.

[whomario]

Wasnt sure where to post (here or FM thread), but has anybody put their resume in yet ?



https://www.palloliitto.fi/sites/def..._coach_eng.pdf

(and yes, that PDF is from the official homepage of the finish FA)

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by TroyF

The only worry for me is who backs up the Coq. I'm not sure I trust Arteta against a big club.

Arteta may replace Coquelin in the lineup/off the bench sometimes, but he's not really a backup. Very different player. I agree that I would like someone in the Coquelin mold to challenge him, but I don't think we'll see it this season. Maybe next year Flamini/Arteta will be out and we'll bring in a big time holding midfielder. But you know Arsene and playing creative midfielders EVERYWHERE.

[cartman]

Mexico fired coach Miguel Herrera after evidence came to light that he assaulted a reporter after the Gold Cup final.

Miguel Herrera fired as Mexico manager; What now for El Tri? - Planet Futbol - SI.com

[cthomer5000]

I always groan when the MLS All-Star game rolls around, but it usually ends up being surprisingly entertaining.

I guess I'll watch.

[Easy Mac]

So DC is up 6-4 right now over RSL.

[Marc Vaughan]

So in typical fashion the first Orlando City match I haven't been to in a while turns into a 5-2 cracker

[miami_fan]

That was an amazing match.

[kingfc22]

Very nice strike by the Ox in the first half. Now time to get amped for next weekend!

[Easy Mac]

So what's wrong with Barca

[Grover]

Connor Wickham going to Palace for up to 9m.

If he weren't English he'd be going for 3-4m.

[miami_fan]

Don't Spurs have a match on Saturday? What the hell are they doing in Munich?

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'm 48.

I'll be dead of old age before there's enough top level home grown talent to make MLS a first tier league.

I actually think that America has a potentially huge array of talent available once Soccer reaches a sufficient critical mass, I've been very impressed by the standard of play I've seen - not so much within the MLS itself (although there are stand out players within it) but at a grass roots level there are some very competent players and it seems to be continually increasing in popularity which will speed up its growth ...

I expect within the next 8-12 years that the US will be far more competitive on a national level with the mens team and the MLS itself will also have raised its standard substantially.

PS - In other news Brighton have signed Bobby Zamora - Bobby's come home

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by TroyF

That said, I don't know how any manager improves this team. I watched the gold cup. Every team we played (save Cuba) had better athletes and were better on the ball. At some point, we need to develop actual talent. Like maybe a competent #10?

I just don't see this team winning anymore than it has with anyone. Unless we can get the match officials who reffed the last two Mexico games on a permanent basis, this team will stay right where they are.

So I haven't been around for 2 weeks (I was on vacation) so I know this is an older post, but 13 years ago our athletes were no better and perhaps even worse (with the, ok perhaps massive, exception of having a 20 year old Landon Donovan, of course). However that team made it to the Quarterfinals of the World Cup and were very close to beating Germany (actually dominated that game).

6 years ago, the US team had worse athletes than now (exception of Donovan who was 27 at the time), but ended Spain's 35 game unbeaten streak and pushed Brazil to the limit in the finals of the Confederations Cup.

I think people tend to completely forget the success that the USMNT has had under the past and fall into this weird malaise of thinking of Klinsmann can't do it, it can't be done. Well, Arena and Bradley did far better with arguably less talent.

[ISiddiqui]

As for MLS's growth. I think both Marc Vaughan, cthomer, and BishopMVP have hit on some good points. The talent level is growing. There are very exciting talented young players in MLS and in the U-20s. They all won't pan out, of course, but I don't remember this level of talent, say 10 years ago. Some of that is definitely due to MLS academies.

In addition the league is bound to open up more designated player spots at some point. With the addition of Gio de Santos and, before that, Cubo Torres, there is a potential to draw Mexican fans (or at the very least, Mexican-Americans who may have rather just watched Liga MX and not cared about MLS). And some other MLS teams are looking to sign the (more cheap) stars from Central America for their league. Of course you are still going to have to make a "splash" so older European players are going to continue to be purchased and that's just going to have to happen until MLS becomes popular enough that it doesn't have to.

[ISiddiqui]

Interestingly an example of what I just mentioned just happened:

Red Bulls sign Gonzalo Veron as youngest Designated Player in club history | Soccer By Ives

The New York Red Bulls just signed as their latest DP, 25 year old Argentinian player, Gonzalo Veron. Now he's not a superstar, but he's a good player in his prime. However, in terms of getting media attention, I'm betting they got far more eyeballs in their signing of 33 year old Shaun Wright-Phillips, who will likely help the team far less than Veron in the future (though SWP did have a good debut).

[TroyF]

Wilshire down for 6 to 8 weeks. His other ankle. He isn't first 11, but it sucks to not have him there. Arsenal finally have some depth, sucks to see some of it go down so quickly. If it puts him out until the international break in October. That means 10 games. 7 league, 1 league cup, 2 champions league.

If we can't handle that type of loss, we have less depth than I thought.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Wilshire down for 6 to 8 weeks. His other ankle. He isn't first 11, but it sucks to not have him there. Arsenal finally have some depth, sucks to see some of it go down so quickly. If it puts him out until the international break in October. That means 10 games. 7 league, 1 league cup, 2 champions league.

If we can't handle that type of loss, we have less depth than I thought.

They're better without him. Hate to say it but it's the truth.

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by rowech

They're better without him. Hate to say it but it's the truth.

I don't think I agree with this. I don't think he deserves a spot in the first XI, but he's important depth and causes problems.

[kingfc22]

I re-started the FOFC Premier League fantasy league for those that want to participate.

http://fantasy.premierleague.com
League code: 1996016-452188

[The Jackal]

I created an account and it won't let me log in to it. Good stuff.

[Grover]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

I created an account and it won't let me log in to it. Good stuff.

Need to activate it through email first. I had the same issue.

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by Grover

Need to activate it through email first. I had the same issue.

They haven't sent me an email as of yet, maybe I'll try again later if I don't see one come through

[The Jackal]

In, good fun!

[Grover]

Looking like West Ham will be crashing out of Europe today.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

So I haven't been around for 2 weeks (I was on vacation) so I know this is an older post, but 13 years ago our athletes were no better and perhaps even worse (with the, ok perhaps massive, exception of having a 20 year old Landon Donovan, of course). However that team made it to the Quarterfinals of the World Cup and were very close to beating Germany (actually dominated that game).

6 years ago, the US team had worse athletes than now (exception of Donovan who was 27 at the time), but ended Spain's 35 game unbeaten streak and pushed Brazil to the limit in the finals of the Confederations Cup.

I think people tend to completely forget the success that the USMNT has had under the past and fall into this weird malaise of thinking of Klinsmann can't do it, it can't be done. Well, Arena and Bradley did far better with arguably less talent.

Again, I'm all for firing Klinsman, but I NEVER remember watching the US play where they were so thoroughly outmanned as they were in this tourney. Outside of Cuba, every team we played was simply dominant over us when it came to speed and power. I just don't remember watching teams do that to us before.

Maybe you are right, maybe it is coaching. But I look at this team and see nothing. I'm just not impressed with who we throw out there on a game to game basis.

[miami_fan]

No De Gea in goal for Manchester United

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Again, I'm all for firing Klinsman, but I NEVER remember watching the US play where they were so thoroughly outmanned as they were in this tourney. Outside of Cuba, every team we played was simply dominant over us when it came to speed and power. I just don't remember watching teams do that to us before.

I agree entirely...

Maybe you are right, maybe it is coaching. But I look at this team and see nothing. I'm just not impressed with who we throw out there on a game to game basis.

And I'd say how are the players we throw out there on a game to game basis any worse than who we threw out there in the WC 2002 or Confederations Cup 2009? They aren't.

Klinsmann was known for being tactically poor with Bayern and even with Germany (Low was the tactical genius). It's the coaching, not the players. How can it be, when the players are playing against stronger competition than they ever have before (in MLS or Europe)?

An example - Mix Diskerud is a backup for the USMNT - he'd easily start in 2002.