Tim Tebow ..

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Going back and searching through the archives, there was tons of shit thrown at Rodgers

Rodgers was a consensus top-5 pick who slid to the mid-20s. Tebow was a maybe mid-2nd or 3rd round project pick who was taken half a round before most teams would have been willing to gamble on him. The fact that they were both taken in the mid-20s is about the only comparison that can be made between the two.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

It should go without saying, but Tebow doesn't have the arm strength, height, or agility of a Michael Vick to start with. Even if Vick is/was an inaccurate or inconstent passer, his other tools helped to make up for it. Tebow has none of that, as a starting point. That's what I've been saying. Equating Tebow to a maligned QB who has gotten better with time/reps misses the point, because it wasn't an apples-to-apples comparison to begin with.

Tebow couldn't carry Vick's water bottle, and I am no fan of Vick.

[flounder]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

His only real chance at being even an average starting QB is going all-in with him and basically running a slightly modified college offense for him. The NFL is not the place to look for that kind of outside the box thinking/innovation.

I haven't watched any Carolina games this year, but I swear that I heard someone say that they're running a lot of plays for Cam Newton that are straight out of the Auburn playbook. I know I've seen a least one highlight where they were running a read option play.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

It should go without saying, but Tebow doesn't have the arm strength, height, or agility of a Michael Vick to start with. Even if Vick is/was an inaccurate or inconstent passer, his other tools helped to make up for it. Tebow has none of that, as a starting point. That's what I've been saying. Equating Tebow to a maligned QB who has gotten better with time/reps misses the point, because it wasn't an apples-to-apples comparison to begin with.

Steve Young never had any of those tools either but people somehow compare Vick TO him.

Similar styles is what the comparison is...physical tools only get you so far.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Are you seriously comparing Tebow to Vick? lol

Yes, just as saying Painter is Peyton Manning's backup means you are comparing Painter to Manning.

[RomaGoth]

You said:

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

I think right now, if I'm Andy Reid, I'm looking to pick up Tebow in the offseason and have Vick v2 waiting in the wings in 3 years (or on the occasional spot start due to injury).

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

Yes, just as saying Painter is Peyton Manning's backup means you are comparing Painter to Manning.

Pretty sure you were comparing Tebow to Vick, not just saying he will be his backup. Or am I missing something here?

Oh, and you really shouldn't bang your head against a wall, that will give you a headache.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Pretty sure you were comparing Tebow to Vick, not just saying he will be his backup. Or am I missing something here?

How about a "Poor man's Vick" then?

Naturally, no QB has had the full range of physical talent that Vick had coming into the NFL. But thats kind of the point...even WITH Vick's incredible talent came a lackluster performance which wasn't properly groomed along until a competent (and committed) coaching staff got a hold of him.

You can point to his maturity & level of commitment as an individual, but it also takes a committed and competent coaching staff. I think Tebow is committed and has the physical tools (not of Vick's level, but of an NFL QB)...not convinced Denver has the committed staff or the competency though.

[Butter]

Yes, it is the coaching staff's fault that Tebow sucks balls.

[korme]

I understand what SteveMax is trying to say, and somehow you guys are not, but I still disagree with the idea that even with a few years on the sidelines that Tebow will "get it". I just don't think he has the football IQ.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by korme

I just don't think he has the football IQ.

This part he will eventually get and if it was his biggest issue you guys would probably be right. However when you combine lack of football IQ, with slow release, inaccurate arm, and a release that is much to low you have a qb that wont have success in the NFL.

All of the reasons many NFL experts thought would make him an unsuccessful QB are STILL there 1.5 years later. It really doesnt look like he has improved on them areas at all.

It just doesnt seem to be meant to be. You can maybe get away with 1 flaw but having 3-4 makes it a steep climb.

EDIT
I failed to mention that his footwork is awful as well. Many times he is making throws with his front foot not pointed at the reciever. Probably adds to his accuracy issues.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by korme

I understand what SteveMax is trying to say, and somehow you guys are not, but I still disagree with the idea that even with a few years on the sidelines that Tebow will "get it". I just don't think he has the football IQ.

Yes...it takes both. And I'm not convinced he will ever get it either. But the gigantic leap from media darling to worst QB ever in a total of 6 games in the NFL is just silly. Every QB makes throws that are horrendous...including the legendary Trent Dilfer.

My only point is that he definitely will not get it if the coaching staff sees him as the guy they'll be releasing in a couple of months. They're trying to implement "their" offense & who cares if Tim Tebow can't run it.

He's a definite project that needs to sit & learn. Throwing him to the wolves proves very little at this point...as it has always been a given that he's not a finished product yet.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Yes, it is the coaching staff's fault that Tebow sucks balls.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but not sure you'll find much agreement in it.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but not sure you'll find much agreement in it.

I'm pretty sure that was sarcasm.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

I'm pretty sure that was sarcasm.

Pretty sure you turned yours off at my post.

[MacroGuru]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Yes, it is the coaching staff's fault that Tebow sucks balls.

Well, if they were teabagging Tebow...why yes, it would be their fault..

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by korme

I understand what SteveMax is trying to say, and somehow you guys are not, but I still disagree with the idea that even with a few years on the sidelines that Tebow will "get it". I just don't think he has the football IQ.

I think he has a decent football IQ. He just doesn't have much else.

If he keeps his current throwing motion, he'll always have accuracy issues, DBs will be able to get a jump on his throws and rushers will get another step closer to sacking him. His footwork is absolutely terrible, from the time he leaves center to the time he throws the ball. He throws at the WR and not at the spot. He doesn't go through his progressions well. He doesn't read defenses particularly well.

The last couple of things can be learned. The first couple, at this stage, probably can't be learned.

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

He's a definite project that needs to sit & learn. Throwing him to the wolves proves very little at this point...as it has always been a given that he's not a finished product yet.

The days of a 1st round pick still being a project in his 2nd year are long gone. From a football standpoint, he, his agent and the Broncos didn't do him any favors by selecting him in the 1st round. But he is one and he has to be ready to play. It's professional football and if he's not, then it's his fault.

Plus, I don't think he'll ever be a finished product. I thought he'd be a much better H-Back and multipurpose threat - aka a new type of Slash. Get him trained on blocking and route running, use his 4.7 speed as a TE/fullback and let him throw the ball on occasion. He could be a 15 play/game player and might be able to be effective in that situational role. But then again, that's not worth a 1st round pick...

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

Pretty sure you turned yours off at my post.

Yeah, sure dude, whatever...

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

The days of a 1st round pick still being a project in his 2nd year are long gone. From a football standpoint, he, his agent and the Broncos didn't do him any favors by selecting him in the 1st round. But he is one and he has to be ready to play. It's professional football and if he's not, then it's his fault.

This isn't the case to the extent you are indicating. Aaron Rogers never played for 3 years, Rivers took 2 years of sitting on the bench, Alex Smith has been frolicking around for many years now because they can't find anything better, and there will certainly be other QBs like these in the future & those who won't be rushed into action before they are ready.

The difference is in how bad/good the team is already, how desperate they are for a "savior" for the franchise, and a few other factors related to the stability of the owner/coaches/fanbase. But rest assured...it isn't universal yet & really won't be unless the NFL becomes a truly different & less complex game than it is today...which I don't see happening.

The "success" that you & others see regarding the Big Bens, Flacco, Ryan, Freeman, Newton, and others is the complete haircut the offense takes for a rookie QB. It is simplified for them to minimize their risk. A smart AND committed OC does this because the franchise QB will not be the one leaving...he will. Naturally those other QBs have more upside than Tebow but don't discount the role of playcalling & the coaching staff plays in this.

In the case of Denver, they really don't need to care about Tebow since nobody coaching/working there drafted him. You're right they didn't do him any favors, and this is basically why he's being thrown out there so early, but it doesn't prove or disprove the "known" project that Tim Tebow was going into the draft (as a QB anyway). It might save a little face...for Denver after they release him...but it won't matter for another team that is willing to take a shot with him.

Plus, I don't think he'll ever be a finished product. I thought he'd be a much better H-Back and multipurpose threat - aka a new type of Slash. Get him trained on blocking and route running, use his 4.7 speed as a TE/fullback and let him throw the ball on occasion. He could be a 15 play/game player and might be able to be effective in that situational role. But then again, that's not worth a 1st round pick...

I agree. He will likely never be a viable NFL QB because a lot of circumstances would have to come together for him. The biggest of which is the ability to sit & learn. Not everybody will give him this time without him having some special teams or other positional value. But somebody might see it as worthwhile for a cheap contract.

[BillJasper]

After watching the CFL on ESPN3 and NFL Network, I'm convinced he would make a solid QB in that league. Learn the things he needs to learn without the pressure and then come back and be a respectable starter someday ala Doug Flutie.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

After watching the CFL on ESPN3 and NFL Network, I'm convinced he would make a solid QB in that league. Learn the things he needs to learn without the pressure and then come back and be a respectable starter someday ala Doug Flutie.

The CFL may help him in one sense. Since he'll have an extra eligible receiver on each play, when his pass wildly misses his intended target, there'll be an extra guy out there who might be able to catch it.

Edit to add: He also won't have to deal with so many pesky third down conversions.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

The CFL may help him in one sense. Since he'll have an extra eligible receiver on each play, when his pass wildly misses his intended target, there'll be an extra guy out there who might be able to catch it.

Edit to add: He also won't have to deal with so many pesky third down conversions.

[gkb]

Dammit Josh McDaniels. This thread is another thing I'm blaming you for.

[JediKooter]

Hey don't feel bad. The Broncos are only 2 back of first place in the AFC West.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

The CFL may help him in one sense. Since he'll have an extra eligible receiver on each play, when his pass wildly misses his intended target, there'll be an extra guy out there who might be able to catch it.

Edit to add: He also won't have to deal with so many pesky third down conversions.

lol

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

Hey don't feel bad. The Broncos are only 2 back of first place in the AFC West.

IMAGINE IF TEBOW STARTED EARLIER?!

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

How about a "Poor man's Vick" then?

Naturally, no QB has had the full range of physical talent that Vick had coming into the NFL. But thats kind of the point...even WITH Vick's incredible talent came a lackluster performance which wasn't properly groomed along until a competent (and committed) coaching staff got a hold of him.

You can point to his maturity & level of commitment as an individual, but it also takes a committed and competent coaching staff. I think Tebow is committed and has the physical tools (not of Vick's level, but of an NFL QB)...not convinced Denver has the committed staff or the competency though.

Which physical tools are you referring to? The wild under/overthrow to his receiver? The inability to drop back from center and step into a throw? No way is Tebow going to be more than a backup QB in the NFL, and even that may be a stretch. He had 4 years at Florida to learn how to read a defense, I sincerely doubt the non-committed Denver coaching staff has the patience to teach him these things at this point.

[SteveMax58]

Nobody is saying he'll be a great QB. Confusing "results prove nothing" with "he'll be a great QB" is well...confusing.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

This isn't the case to the extent you are indicating. Aaron Rogers never played for 3 years, Rivers took 2 years of sitting on the bench, Alex Smith has been frolicking around for many years now because they can't find anything better, and there will certainly be other QBs like these in the future & those who won't be rushed into action before they are ready.

Faulty logic. Rogers had someone named Brett Favre playing in front of him. Rivers had someone named Drew Brees. How do you know those guys weren't ready to be effective starters their 2nd year? You don't, and therefore your examples aren't valid logical comparisons.

Now it's true a that occasionally a QB blossoms late in their career. Rich Gannon is a prime example. Alex Smith may be another. But let's talk about both of those guys in a minute...

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

The "success" that you & others see regarding the Big Bens, Flacco, Ryan, Freeman, Newton, and others is the complete haircut the offense takes for a rookie QB. It is simplified for them to minimize their risk. A smart AND committed OC does this because the franchise QB will not be the one leaving...he will. Naturally those other QBs have more upside than Tebow but don't discount the role of playcalling & the coaching staff plays in this.

Gannon and (to a lesser extent) Smith needed the right system in which to thrive. That's what you're getting at here with Ben/Ryan/Freeman, etc. But the problem is that the possible system in which Tebow might perform better can't be performed at the NFL level. It's not a pro system. That's the major difference. It's one thing to simplify an offense (Alex Smith) or bring in a QB tailor made for a west-coast scheme (Gannon). It's entirely another to try to entirely overhaul an offense into a system that can't work in the NFL. Tebow's most comfortable in a spread offense out of a shotgun. He doesn't have the accuracy to run such a system and Denver doesn't have the talent. Even if they did, it's not a viable full-time NFL system. We've already covered that.

Also, is there any evidence that there's a system problem here? Does the offense look too complex?

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

In the case of Denver, they really don't need to care about Tebow since nobody coaching/working there drafted him. You're right they didn't do him any favors, and this is basically why he's being thrown out there so early, but it doesn't prove or disprove the "known" project that Tim Tebow was going into the draft (as a QB anyway). It might save a little face...for Denver after they release him...but it won't matter for another team that is willing to take a shot with him.

Now you sound like you're buying into the "sabotage" conspiracy theory. It's not worth addressing. If you think John Fox or John Elway would accept losing just to prove the fans wrong or destroy someone's career, you're off your rocker.

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

I agree. He will likely never be a viable NFL QB because a lot of circumstances would have to come together for him. The biggest of which is the ability to sit & learn. Not everybody will give him this time without him having some special teams or other positional value. But somebody might see it as worthwhile for a cheap contract.

We have a fundamental difference of opinion here. I believe his biggest obstacle is his lack of fundamentals. I think the guy gives it his all. I think he's smart. I think he's driven. I think he'll try to walk through razor wire to win. But I don't think he can ever overcome the major technical deficiencies in his footwork and throwing motion to be a consistent NFL starter. Ive seen some guys with odd throwing motions be successful QBs. Tarkington threw an ugly ball. Billy Kilmer threw a horribly ugly ball. Bernie Kosar threw sidearmed. But they were fundamentally sound in other areas to overcome that. Tebow's not...and he's not even close. From a professional standpoint, once he takes the snap he looks like a monkey fucking a football.

Even there's a (small) chance that he could, he's not owed that chance. This is professional football and not Pop Warner. If he can't get the fundamentals down on his own, there are 100 other guys who can who are willing to take his place for the rookie minimum. That's why he was a bad pick.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Faulty logic. Rogers had someone named Brett Favre playing in front of him. Rivers had someone named Drew Brees. How do you know those guys weren't ready to be effective starters their 2nd year? You don't, and therefore your examples aren't valid logical comparisons.

Now it's true a that occasionally a QB blossoms late in their career. Rich Gannon is a prime example. Alex Smith may be another. But let's talk about both of those guys in a minute...



Gannon and (to a lesser extent) Smith needed the right system in which to thrive. That's what you're getting at here with Ben/Ryan/Freeman, etc. But the problem is that the possible system in which Tebow might perform better can't be performed at the NFL level. It's not a pro system. That's the major difference. It's one thing to simplify an offense (Alex Smith) or bring in a QB tailor made for a west-coast scheme (Gannon). It's entirely another to try to entirely overhaul an offense into a system that can't work in the NFL. Tebow's most comfortable in a spread offense out of a shotgun. He doesn't have the accuracy to run such a system and Denver doesn't have the talent. Even if they did, it's not a viable full-time NFL system. We've already covered that.

Also, is there any evidence that there's a system problem here? Does the offense look too complex?



Now you sound like you're buying into the "sabotage" conspiracy theory. It's not worth addressing. If you think John Fox or John Elway would accept losing just to prove the fans wrong or destroy someone's career, you're off your rocker.



We have a fundamental difference of opinion here. I believe his biggest obstacle is his lack of fundamentals. I think the guy gives it his all. I think he's smart. I think he's driven. I think he'll try to walk through razor wire to win. But I don't think he can ever overcome the major technical deficiencies in his footwork and throwing motion to be a consistent NFL starter.

Even there's a (small) chance that he could, he's not owed that chance. This is professional football and not Pop Warner. If he can't get the fundamentals down on his own, there are 100 other guys who can who are willing to take his place for the rookie minimum. That's why he was a bad pick.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

This pretty much covers it.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Even there's a (small) chance that he could, he's not owed that chance. This is professional football and not Pop Warner. If he can't get the fundamentals down on his own, there are 100 other guys who can who are willing to take his place for the rookie minimum. That's why he was a bad pick.

I AGREE...now please tell me where I'm wrong on that.

[JediKooter]

Please don't delete any posts in this thread. I want to read this thread in the year 2020 and see how the posts stack up.

[Julio Riddols]

I think Tebow and his anything for the team attitude woulld be well suited for an H-back type of role. Maybe you work some plays in around the goalline where you pitch it to him and give him the option to run or pass, maybe you use him as a TE in passing situations, maybe a few wildcat plays here and there.. He would be far more effective as a multi purpose gadget catalyst.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

Yes, just as saying Painter is Peyton Manning's backup means you are comparing Painter to Manning.

Tebow isn't even good enough to be Painter's backup...

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Faulty logic. Rogers had someone named Brett Favre playing in front of him. Rivers had someone named Drew Brees. How do you know those guys weren't ready to be effective starters their 2nd year? You don't, and therefore your examples aren't valid logical comparisons.

Now it's true a that occasionally a QB blossoms late in their career. Rich Gannon is a prime example. Alex Smith may be another. But let's talk about both of those guys in a minute...

Right...and my logic is faulty how? You don't think a 1st rd pick will ever have a great QB ahead of him ever again and will always need to start & be effective...um, regardless of whether there is an established (and potentially great) QB on the depth chart?

Sounds like you are disagreeing to just disagree. Whatever makes you feel good..dude.

Gannon and (to a lesser extent) Smith needed the right system in which to thrive. That's what you're getting at here with Ben/Ryan/Freeman, etc. But the problem is that the possible system in which Tebow might perform better can't be performed at the NFL level. It's not a pro system. That's the major difference. It's one thing to simplify an offense (Alex Smith) or bring in a QB tailor made for a west-coast scheme (Gannon). It's entirely another to try to entirely overhaul an offense into a system that can't work in the NFL. Tebow's most comfortable in a spread offense out of a shotgun. He doesn't have the accuracy to run such a system and Denver doesn't have the talent. Even if they did, it's not a viable full-time NFL system. We've already covered that.

Also, is there any evidence that there's a system problem here? Does the offense look too complex?

Right system plays a role, sure. But what you're missing in all of my posts, and I don't know how, is that Tebow needs to learn ANY pro system. And there is no pro system the guy could possibly learn in a year...let alone the 2 he's been thrown into because of coaching changes & the short offseason to learn this latest offense. He wouldn't be ready for Josh McDaniels' system by now...he was a project QB AT BEST. This means he won't be ready by year 2. Apparently, agreeing on that isn't good enough for you...you expect to hear universal agreement that 6 games of tape...for a QB that was obviously a project AT BEST...is enough to determine what the guy's ceiling will be. Sometimes I think that's enough...but not enough for a guy who had a gigantic learning curve ahead of him, in my opinion.

Now you sound like you're buying into the "sabotage" conspiracy theory. It's not worth addressing. If you think John Fox or John Elway would accept losing just to prove the fans wrong or destroy someone's career, you're off your rocker.

Not sabotage at all. You make a mistake drafting a PROJECT QB, your team is hopeless already, you bring in a new coaching staff, you want a QB to fit the new coaching staff's offense, the new coaching staff has ZERO liability with the Tebow pick...so clearly you want to see if he'll be able to lead that offense but you aren't going to trim it down like you would if you HAD TO DO IT.

If he went 24-36, 289yds & 3 TDs against Detroit, I'm certain Elway & Fox would be happy & consider him for their future. But the fact that he didn't also doesn't, in my opinion, change the way he should be viewed...a project QB at best who requires a lot of work.

We have a fundamental difference of opinion here. I believe his biggest obstacle is his lack of fundamentals. I think the guy gives it his all. I think he's smart. I think he's driven. I think he'll try to walk through razor wire to win. But I don't think he can ever overcome the major technical deficiencies in his footwork and throwing motion to be a consistent NFL starter. Ive seen some guys with odd throwing motions be successful QBs. Tarkington threw an ugly ball. Billy Kilmer threw a horribly ugly ball. Bernie Kosar threw sidearmed. But they were fundamentally sound in other areas to overcome that. Tebow's not...and he's not even close. From a professional standpoint, once he takes the snap he looks like a monkey fucking a football.

I guess we do have differences here because the fundamentals is exactly what a guy who gives his all & has a good football IQ (not to be confused with football knowledge) can be taught. So either you feel he's too dumb to learn, or that he is an old dog incapable of learning new tricks, or... I'm not sure where your logic is going.

He can be taught only so many things at once. This is why you call him...ready for it...a PROJECT QB. He can't possibly correct all of his shortcomings in the amount of time he's been given to do it. He isn't a great prospect...he's a project.

And what you & others are overlooking is that bad footwork for a guy that is "thinking" where to put the ball vs a guy who "knows" where to put the ball leads to ugly play on the field. This is what happens when a QB is in over his head.

He isn't likely to ever be a solid QB in the NFL just based on the amount of things he needs to correct & improve...but you don't know that with more certainty than you did before his draft after the 6 games he's played.

Even there's a (small) chance that he could, he's not owed that chance. This is professional football and not Pop Warner. If he can't get the fundamentals down on his own, there are 100 other guys who can who are willing to take his place for the rookie minimum. That's why he was a bad pick.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

Of course he isn't owed that chance & of course he was a terrible pick in the 1st round. You're arguing points that aren't being debated by anybody.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

he's an all in proposition. you either tailor your offense what he can/can't do or you can run him out of the league, which is what fox seems to be doing.

i'm convinced if he had an oc like jeff jagodzinski he could be successful. but a drop back passer he is not. at the least he could be package player like pat white was supposed to be in miami.

i hope he ends up in buffalo. gailey could do some fun stuff with him.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Now you sound like you're buying into the "sabotage" conspiracy theory. It's not worth addressing. If you think John Fox or John Elway would accept losing just to prove the fans wrong or destroy someone's career, you're off your rocker.

It's not necessarily "sabotage", but Fox and Elway couldn't have been thrilled that the focal point of their team was a 3rd string QB, and the focal theme of the team was how stupid they were for not starting him. If he's terrible, well, that's over with. If he shows something, great. If Tim Tebow was just Brady Quinn or something, the fans wouldn't have been freaking out over him and he wouldn't be starting in this league yet. If not for the glow around him that has nothing to do with football, he'd have been a 3rd or 4th round pick backing up someone somewhere, maybe getting some playing time maybe not - but we wouldn't have a 4 page thread about him.

[bhlloy]

So basically we are all agreeing but arguing about it anyway?

[JediKooter]

I think so. It sounds like everyone agrees that he's not good, but, the reasons he's not good is the difference. *shrug*

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by NorvTurnerOverdrive

he's an all in proposition. you either tailor your offense what he can/can't do or you can run him out of the league

Hey whaddya know, somebody finally says something in the thread that I'm pretty sure I agree with.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

So basically we are all agreeing but arguing about it anyway?

Hi bhlloy, you must be new around here. Take a look at some of the threads and if you have any questions feel free to ask...someone will argue with you about the answers.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

I'll bring up what Trent Dilfer said again. One key to showing that Tebow has no idea what is going on is where his passes miss. He doesn't miss his receivers by leading them too far. He's showing no anticipation even in the missed passes. He has no clue what he's seeing so he's looking for a WR to come open then hoping he can force the ball in before it's too late. He has zero football IQ.

What he does have is a freakish will to win and ability to inspire teammates. If you just go with a sandlot type of approach and let him do a ton of freelancing, you might something out of him, but relying on him to get even a little of the mental part of the game is going to get you nowhere.

I'm not sure what definition Dilfer is using for football IQ but I don't think thats what that means. I like Dilfer's analysis typically but that isn't telling us about Tebow's football IQ imo...it is telling us the game is over his head right now.

Missing high, missing low, missing any which way means the QB doesn't understand the plays, the defensive coverage scheme, etc. He just flat out doesn't know where to put the ball because he doesn't have enough pro style offense experience...and certainly not in the pro style offense he's been running for about a total of 3 months now.

I agree that he would have better success if they gave him more of a sandlot approach. Roll him out & let him make plays with his legs when he can't figure things out. This will make coverages more favorable for him once he starts making defenses pay a little. But he's still got so much to learn & grasp that I don't think it matters this season for him. He really needs a lot of time in the film room & working on his mechanics. So much so...that I don't honestly think he's worth the trouble for Denver. And I think Denver will agree by releasing him after the season...barring some (unrealistic) miraculous breakthroughs between now & then.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

Missing high, missing low, missing any which way means the QB doesn't understand the plays, the defensive coverage scheme, etc. He just flat out doesn't know where to put the ball because he doesn't have enough pro style offense experience...and certainly not in the pro style offense he's been running for about a total of 3 months now.

Hmmm...isn't this the definition of football IQ? Just wondering.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Hmmm...isn't this the definition of football IQ? Just wondering.

Well, thats why I say...if thats the definition being used but thats different than the way I've usually heard it used.

I've always understood it to mean a player's understanding of the concepts of football. I guess from a pro standpoint, you could argue his is low but then, its also low for most young players regardless of position.

But I don't subscribe to the thinking Tebow doesn't understand the concepts of coverages, ball placement, route timing, etc. He just has a TON to learn in order to apply that understanding.

A bit of street smarts vs book smarts I guess. I see him as having the street smarts (in a football sense), but not enough book smarts to apply it.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

Not at all. Missing by leading a guy too far is a timing issue but at least it's more likely that the read is correct. Missing behind guys means you're probably not seeing where the route is going to come open quickly enough. Missing high/low is also indicative of probably not seeing where the route is going to come open and either throwing off the back foot (low) or not following through on the release point (high). It just seems like the misses he has that are behind, low, high, are extreme misses, not 6-12" here or there. There's nothing about what he's doing that looks like he's going through a progression, identifying where the holes in a defense are, and getting rid of the ball on time. That's all football IQ and he doesn't appear to have any at this point.

Yeah, I guess I just call that experience & mechanics. Maybe I'm using the term incorrectly, though.

But to me, what Dilfer is describing (no matter the definition) is extremely correctable with reps, film, & time. Not that he'll get all of those, mind you, but correctable things any QB goes through in their first season. He may look worse than some of recent memory...but that's because his starting point was so much further behind.

I can recall many games where I began questioning Eli's abilities to learn & grasp the idea of cover 2. Hell, I still do at times.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

Well, thats why I say...if thats the definition being used but thats different than the way I've usually heard it used.

I've always understood it to mean a player's understanding of the concepts of football. I guess from a pro standpoint, you could argue his is low but then, its also low for most young players regardless of position.

But I don't subscribe to the thinking Tebow doesn't understand the concepts of coverages, ball placement, route timing, etc. He just has a TON to learn in order to apply that understanding.

A bit of street smarts vs book smarts I guess. I see him as having the street smarts (in a football sense), but not enough book smarts to apply it.

If you compare Tebow to Newton, what do you get? Both are young guys just out of college (if anything, Newton is at a disadvantage in that he is a rookie while Tebow has a year and a lot of NFL practices under his belt). I have doubts that Newton played a pro-style offense at Auburn just as Tebow didn't at Florida.

The difference here is that Cam Newton clearly has football IQ, while Tebow...well, he doesn't.

[RainMaker]

Newton has an offensive line and an elite wide receiver too. They aren't in the same league, but Newton doesn't pull this off in Denver with that slop.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

this speaks to my biggest pet peeve in sports which is system over parts. it's like someone hands you a rifle and you say,' it's a rocket launcher.'
'no, it's a rifle.'
'well, i'm gonna make it a rocket launcher.'
'uh, good luck with that.'

you go to war with the army you've got... yada yada

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

The difference here is that Cam Newton clearly has football IQ, while Tebow...well, he doesn't.

Well, Cam is a much better prospect altogether than Tebow, and has more upside. So I guess if you want to say he has better football IQ, I don't think I'd argue with that but I also wouldn't say Cam has proven he will be a great starting QB either.