Jerry Sandusky thread - Page 39

molson · 07-23-2012, 08:23 AM

It will be effective in modestly decreasing the amount of wins the Penn St. football program over the next few years. What that has to do with child molestation, I still don't understand, but I've said my piece on that.

muns · 07-23-2012, 08:24 AM

The Ncaa didnt even do their own investigation and are just going by what the freeh report says (which people dispute). They can't go max here because they circumvented their own system and jumped the gun. Due process went out the window. They should have taken their time and done this the right way instead of caving under public pressure to do something now.

DaddyTorgo · 07-23-2012, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philliesfan980

What a joke - I've lost all respect for major college athletics at this point.

+1

Weak. Ass. "Sanctions"

Izulde · 07-23-2012, 08:28 AM

It appears I'm going to have to add this to the curriculum this semester.

Ksyrup · 07-23-2012, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson

It will be effective in modestly decreasing the amount of wins the Penn St. football program over the next few years. What that has to do with child molestation, I still don't understand, but I've said my piece on that.

Who has ever argued that these sanctions have anything to do with child molestation?

This is about a university and its football program covering up crimes committed by a coach, some of which were in its own facilities, and allowing the criminal to use the prestige he gained from being associated with the university and its football program, to further his criminal activities and for the school to continue a successful program as "status quo" while many of the major players in the program and school knew there was a pattern of conduct and, in all likelihood, that specific and multiple crimes were being committed by the same coach.

The fact that this involves child molestation and not, say, embezzlement or drug trafficking makes the whole thing far more horrible, but the punishment is for the cover-up. No one is blaming the school for Sandusky's crimes; he owns those. But they deserve blame/punishment for allowing them to continue beyond the reasonable point at which they were discovered and should have been reported and action taken. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that. Now, whether this will deter another coach/program/school from covering up crimes of their own program-related people, I guess we'll see over time. But I don't think anyone is expecting a $60M fine on a university to deter child abuse.

Ksyrup · 07-23-2012, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillJasper

Should've included a four year TV ban as well.

They'll never do a TV ban just because it penalizes other schools and complicates the most lucrative deals in the sport.

I'm surprised many people are reacting by saying these are weak sanctions. I actually expected far less than this and am pleasantly surprised. I guess it's weak if you're comparing child molestation to paying players. But as a lack of institutional control case, and figuring they'll never give the death penalty again, I think this hits pretty hard.

RedKingGold · 07-23-2012, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillJasper

Should've included a four year TV ban as well.

I think this is where the Big Ten sanctions will come into play.

Matthean · 07-23-2012, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bronconick

What's this "Ten initial and 20 total" per year?

15 recruits/65 total?

10 first year. 20 after that. 70 total. 20 less scholarships per year over three years is going to be hell work work around. I would think that's at best half of what USC is allowed to add right now. For some schools, that would range around 0-8 maybe 12 max per year.

Kodos · 07-23-2012, 08:41 AM

How happy must the NCAA be to remove Paterno from atop the all time wins list?

Poli · 07-23-2012, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

I think this is where the Big Ten sanctions will come into play.

Yep.

Lathum · 07-23-2012, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

They don't have to stay:

"Emmert also said that any Penn State athlete who wants to transfer to another school can do so and be eligible to play immediately."

OK, cool, I didn't hear that part. I was cleaning up poop during the press conference.

Matthean · 07-23-2012, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kodos

How happy must the NCAA be to remove Paterno from atop the all time wins list?

I'm sure it was a priority they were happy to add.

cougarfreak · 07-23-2012, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

+1

Weak. Ass. "Sanctions"

I was pretty much already there with all the crap that goes on in "amateur" athletics. This is just the icing on the cake. +2

BillJasper · 07-23-2012, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

I think this is where the Big Ten sanctions will come into play.

I don't think so.

The logic will be you're punishing the fans of other teams by keeping Penn State off TV.

Ksyrup · 07-23-2012, 08:46 AM

So how many wins did Paterno lose and where does he end up?

Ben E Lou · 07-23-2012, 08:47 AM

If the goal was to drastically reduce the power of the football program at PSU, the "football culture," this will work well. Recruiting is going to be next to impossible for the next two years unless the kid in question has been drinking the PSU Kool-Aid since birth, and I strongly suspect some quality players are going to leave, too.

Ksyrup · 07-23-2012, 08:48 AM

Saw this on SB Nation:

Quote:

The NCAA says it's considering allowing schools to tack PSU transfers on top of their own current scholarship counts without any penalty, meaning other teams could essentially get players who don't count against the "salary cap," so to speak. Meaning even Alabama could take on Penn State players. If that happens, the Nittany Lions' roster could be completely picked apart to such a degree that competition could be pointless for the time being. And each player that leaves Penn State only increases the chances of more leaving.

BillJasper · 07-23-2012, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

So how many wins did Paterno lose and where does he end up?

Think they said he was now at 277 on Headline News.

Ajaxab · 07-23-2012, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

So how many wins did Paterno lose and where does he end up?

111 wins vacated to finish with 298.

Matthean · 07-23-2012, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

So how many wins did Paterno lose and where does he end up?

He's at 298, which is below Bryant, which I'm ok with.

sooner333 · 07-23-2012, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillJasper

Should've included a four year TV ban as well.

They might wish they were not on TV.

sterlingice · 07-23-2012, 08:49 AM

Let's see how I did. NOTE: I believe the 4 year postseason ban means any player can transfer without penalty.

Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - (Poll) What WILL Penn State be Penalized?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sterlingice

On, the other hand, I think they'll get something similar to USC and their laughabl-- extremely tough penalties. USC got a 2 year postseason ban, a bunch of wins vacated, 10 scholarships for 3 seasons for paying Reggie Bush, OJ Mayo, etc.
It's a year or two years worse than what USC got, depending on the sanction you're looking at, and a $60M fine.

They're in an odd place with the lame "penalize wins" penalty. Honestly, it was the only part of Florida State's violations that really stuck as Bowden was forced behind JoePa for all time Div I wins. Now what do they do? It's justifiable either way: 1998 and before is all forfeited which makes JoePa a pariah in the record books and is just adding insult onto injury or you could leave it alone and say it's not a football violation so no football penalty. Either way it's kindof immaterial. Vacating wins rarely means anything.
I hedged here and said they could go either way. Points for it going back to 1998. We'll count that one as correct.

I think there's a 2 or 3 year postseason and tv ban. It'll cost money and recruiting visibility but it's about the size of a grain of sand of significance to the beach of problems they've already created here. There will also be some token scholarship penalty during the same period: say, 10 per year for 3 years.
4 year postseason ban. They went tougher than I thought but I didn't know that a 4 year postseason ban meant anyone could transfer. If I had known that rule, I would have gone four. So, we'll count this as a partial miss.
Also I said 10 scholarships per year for 3 years- number was right, but, again, they went 4 years.

The one thing I'm really not sure about is the player transfer thing: they may let everyone leave as a "starting over, wash the program fresh" thing. But then it creates a reminder for everyone else out there. On some Saturday afternoon on ABC: "It's a great play by so-and-so linebacker at Pitt. He was at Penn State until ... um... yeah, so it's second and 10."
Hedged here but said it was likely on the table. Looks like they decided to go ahead and do it. Partial credit again.

If they go the route of lame penalties like this, you'll see a longer probation length, probably 5 years.
Five year probation: dead on!

Then this is where it gets fuzzy. They're going to create some sort of "one off" penalties just for Penn State so they can point to it and say "See, this is worse than anything we've ever done" or "it's equivalent to the death penalty", as we've been arguing about in the other thread. Ultimately, it will be something lame and less than the death penalty- otherwise, they'd just give the death penalty.
They didn't even do anything creative unless you count the fine (see below). Definitely not worse than death penalty, but that was all but guaranteed from the start.

I think there will be some strong coercion to have the university make a good faith bunch of programs about child abuse and donate a ton of money but it's won't officially be forced. That said, it will happen because if it doesn't, then there would have been stronger penalties. All of this is what is being negotiated today and has been for the last week, I suspect.
Big money to child abuse fund: yup. But totally forced to give $60M, not just a strong suggestion. That seems like the headline grabber until you see "which is what the football program makes in a year". All that means is that their non-revenue generating sports (read: not football) will suffer greatly. Hope you didn't want to see that Penn State women's track team this year.

And, as long as none of this is really serious, the Big Ten isn't serious about kicking out Penn State. They'll hope they leave willingly, which they won't. And, if they can get a program that's an upgrade like Notre Dame or maybe even a lateral step like Virginia, they might do it. But it gets really complicated at that point and unlikely to happen.

SI

So, I'm going to grade myself as pretty close on almost all of these. Off to go find a Colbert "I called it" gif and call it a day.

EDIT:

SI

sterlingice · 07-23-2012, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kodos

How happy must the NCAA be to remove Paterno from atop the all time wins list?

Congrats to Bowden! After cheating and getting knocked off the list, the guy who passed you harbored a child molester for years on his staff and has to vacate his wins. Way to back into #1!

SI

saldana · 07-23-2012, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

If the goal was to drastically reduce the power of the football program at PSU, the "football culture," this will work well. Recruiting is going to be next to impossible for the next two years unless the kid in question has been drinking the PSU Kool-Aid since birth, and I strongly suspect some quality players are going to leave, too.

i agree with this and am kind of stunned that so many people here wanted the program shut down...it is financially and reputationally a death penalty but with LESS penalty to the kids that are there now...they still have a team...they can leave if they want to but can also stay if they want to..the program suffers, but the kids are not totally doomed...are they penalized, yes, but they are not doomed

Matthean · 07-23-2012, 08:53 AM

I wonder if this means PSU vacates the two split Big Ten titles after 1998. They split both with OSU.

Poli · 07-23-2012, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Congrats to Bowden! After cheating and getting knocked off the list, the guy who passed you harbored a child molester for years on his staff and has to vacate his wins. Way to back into #1!

SI

Go find your gif!

BillJasper · 07-23-2012, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saldana

i agree with this and am kind of stunned that so many people here wanted the program shut down...it is financially and reputationally a death penalty but with LESS penalty to the kids that are there now...they still have a team...they can leave if they want to but can also stay if they want to..the program suffers, but the kids are not totally doomed...are they penalized, yes, but they are not doomed

The only ones penalized are the ones that no other program wants.

spleen1015 · 07-23-2012, 08:54 AM

Mike McQueary was the starting QB for JoePa's last official win.

BillJasper · 07-23-2012, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spleen1015

Mike McQueary was the starting QB for JoePa's last official win.

Seems fitting somehow.

Big Ten is suppose to hand out their sanctions at 11AM.

LloydLungs · 07-23-2012, 08:55 AM

Bottom line. In just over a month, 100,000 idiots get to convene in their stadium and watch their precious Penn State football and chant "WE ARE PENN STATE!" like they're fucking oppressed.

It will make the program crummy for a good while. But it will do nothing to starve the cult of its life force. Sorry, NCAA, too light I think.

BillJasper · 07-23-2012, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LloydLungs

Bottom line. In just over a month, 100,000 idiots get to convene in their stadium and watch their precious Penn State football and chant "WE ARE PENN STATE!" like they're fucking oppressed.

It will make the program crummy for a good while. But it will do nothing to starve the cult of its life force. Sorry, NCAA, too light I think.

+1

saldana · 07-23-2012, 08:56 AM

big 10 is announcing penalties at 11 EDT

Eaglesfan27 · 07-23-2012, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillJasper

The only ones penalized are the ones that no other program wants.

Part of the penalty is Penn State has to honor those scholarships. But, I suspect there will be massive transfers.

BillJasper · 07-23-2012, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Part of the penalty is Penn State has to honor those scholarships. But, I suspect there will be massive transfers.

Right. But they will still be stuck on a sinking ship.

Kodos · 07-23-2012, 09:02 AM

I bet teams will be falling all over themselves to get those Penn State QBs!

BillJasper · 07-23-2012, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kodos

I bet teams will be falling all over themselves to get those Penn State QBs!

bronconick · 07-23-2012, 09:11 AM

Hell, Bolden's tried to transfer like threeve times already. Surprised he hasn't already announced that he's gone.

Matthean · 07-23-2012, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kodos

I bet teams will be falling all over themselves to get those Penn State QBs!

Christian Hackenberg is a PSU commit and the 7th ranked QB in the nation according to Rivals.

stevew · 07-23-2012, 09:12 AM

I certainly hope they are planning to surcharge the tickets by a considerable amount(20-30$ each) in order to pay this massive(and justified) fine.

Poli · 07-23-2012, 09:13 AM

I'd be checking the want ads as a coach as well.

Ben E Lou · 07-23-2012, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillJasper

The only ones penalized are the ones that no other program wants.

Well, we're basically talking about tackling dummies there. At least now they get to stay at PSU, get a free education, and likely get way more playing time than they would have otherwise.

saldana · 07-23-2012, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPhillips

This is from ESPN.

Worse than the death penalty my ass. The 60 million will only hurt students or PA taxpayers and the rest of the penalties are only slightly more harsh than those for selling pins and getting free tattoos.

considering that they have already (since the sandusky conviction i think) gotten over 200 million dollars in donations from their alumni, i am not really worried about my taxes

Ben E Lou · 07-23-2012, 09:14 AM

Hmmm...am I reading this right that they get to pay the fine over a 5-year period?

saldana · 07-23-2012, 09:15 AM

dola, they just announced the 60 mil is actually 12 mil a year for 5 years, so the impact on the other sports will be significantly less.

Kodos · 07-23-2012, 09:15 AM

It would probably blow Penn State fans minds if you had told them a year ago where their program would be today.

sterlingice · 07-23-2012, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Hmmm...am I reading this right that they get to pay the fine over a 5-year period?

That's probably for the best. The number is more symbolic than anything. If you take away all football program revenue in a year, none of their other programs will be able to support themselves.

SI

Scoobz0202 · 07-23-2012, 09:21 AM

So these scholarship reductions with a bowl ban essentially make them a FCS school right?

molson · 07-23-2012, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Who has ever argued that these sanctions have anything to do with child molestation?

This is about a university and its football program covering up crimes committed by a coach, some of which were in its own facilities, and allowing the criminal to use the prestige he gained from being associated with the university and its football program, to further his criminal activities and for the school to continue a successful program as "status quo" while many of the major players in the program and school knew there was a pattern of conduct and, in all likelihood, that specific and multiple crimes were being committed by the same coach.

The fact that this involves child molestation and not, say, embezzlement or drug trafficking makes the whole thing far more horrible, but the punishment is for the cover-up. No one is blaming the school for Sandusky's crimes; he owns those. But they deserve blame/punishment for allowing them to continue beyond the reasonable point at which they were discovered and should have been reported and action taken. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that. Now, whether this will deter another coach/program/school from covering up crimes of their own program-related people, I guess we'll see over time. But I don't think anyone is expecting a $60M fine on a university to deter child abuse.

Scholarship penalties exist to address unfair competitive advantages brought about through using ineligible players other other competitive cheating. They make no sense in this context.

And again, we're just punishing the remnants of a program trying to rebuild, not the individuals that did anything wrong. Ya, that's what the NCAA does when it comes to recruiting violations generally, but I disagree with that too in most instances. John Calipari should be punished, he shouldn't be allowed to cheat and then start clean at Kentucky like nothing happened. Sanctions should follow him. But even in that instance, Memphis got athletic success through cheating, so I guess you can make the argument that they should lose some of that athletic success, even if the current team and staff (except for whoever hired Calipari, who should also be individually punished), didn't do anything wrong.

And I personally don't buy that we have to punish the idea that "football is too important" aside from the individuals involved. The NCAA and the member schools exist to make sure "football is too important" and they're not going to be penalizing or regulating with the aim of taking down the importance of college football on campuses any time soon, except as a show if the media and public demands it in extraordinary situations. Football is as important or more important in the SEC than even at Penn St. and that's not changing anytime soon, in fact, the NCAA protects the SEC from continuing that status quo. So for them to go up here and say, "our priority is education" is pretty laughable. NCAA is part of the cartel that makes football "too important" everywhere.

This didn't even succeed is satisfying anger lust, which is I think is the main focus some people had. But talking about all this in terms of bowl games and scholarships lost and LOL, vacated wins, is distasteful to me and misses the point entirely. It validates Penn St in a way, because the NCAA has confirmed how important football is, that they believe losing a couple of 8 win season v. and instead having a couple 5 win seasons is this amazing penalty that address at all what happened.

Ben E Lou · 07-23-2012, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scoobz0202

So these scholarship reductions with a bowl ban essentially make them a FCS school right?

I think they have a few more schollies and a bigger name. In terms of ability to compete, could be.

panerd · 07-23-2012, 09:24 AM

So this this make Pitt football a monster now? (No joke intended here either, can't think of any other powerhouse Penn schools)

07-23-2012, 08:28 AM	#1904
Izulde Head Coach Join Date: Sep 2004	It appears I'm going to have to add this to the curriculum this semester. __________________ 2006 Golden Scribe Nominee 2006 Golden Scribe Winner Best Non-Sport Dynasty: May Our Reign Be Green and Golden (CK Dynasty) Rookie Writer of the Year Dynasty of the Year: May Our Reign Be Green and Golden (CK Dynasty)

07-23-2012, 08:41 AM	#1909
Kodos Resident Alien Join Date: Jun 2001	How happy must the NCAA be to remove Paterno from atop the all time wins list? __________________ Author of The Bill Gates Challenge, as well as other groundbreaking dynasties.

07-23-2012, 08:46 AM	#1915
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	So how many wins did Paterno lose and where does he end up? __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."

07-23-2012, 08:47 AM	#1916
Ben E Lou Morgado's Favorite Forum Fascist Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC	If the goal was to drastically reduce the power of the football program at PSU, the "football culture," this will work well. Recruiting is going to be next to impossible for the next two years unless the kid in question has been drinking the PSU Kool-Aid since birth, and I strongly suspect some quality players are going to leave, too. __________________ The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'!

07-23-2012, 08:53 AM	#1925
Matthean Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Aug 2008	I wonder if this means PSU vacates the two split Big Ten titles after 1998. They split both with OSU. __________________ Board games: Bringing people back to the original social network, the table.

07-23-2012, 08:23 AM	#1901
molson General Manager Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: The Mountains	It will be effective in modestly decreasing the amount of wins the Penn St. football program over the next few years. What that has to do with child molestation, I still don't understand, but I've said my piece on that.

07-23-2012, 08:24 AM	#1902
muns Pro Starter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Baltimore MD	The Ncaa didnt even do their own investigation and are just going by what the freeh report says (which people dispute). They can't go max here because they circumvented their own system and jumped the gun. Due process went out the window. They should have taken their time and done this the right way instead of caving under public pressure to do something now.

07-23-2012, 08:54 AM	#1928
spleen1015 Coordinator Join Date: Sep 2003	Mike McQueary was the starting QB for JoePa's last official win. __________________ Why choose failure when success is an option?

07-23-2012, 08:55 AM	#1930
LloydLungs College Prospect Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Ponchatoula, LA	Bottom line. In just over a month, 100,000 idiots get to convene in their stadium and watch their precious Penn State football and chant "WE ARE PENN STATE!" like they're fucking oppressed. It will make the program crummy for a good while. But it will do nothing to starve the cult of its life force. Sorry, NCAA, too light I think. Last edited by LloydLungs : 07-23-2012 at 08:56 AM.

07-23-2012, 08:56 AM	#1932
saldana Pro Starter Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Bethlehem, Pa	big 10 is announcing penalties at 11 EDT

07-23-2012, 09:02 AM	#1935
Kodos Resident Alien Join Date: Jun 2001	I bet teams will be falling all over themselves to get those Penn State QBs! __________________ Author of The Bill Gates Challenge, as well as other groundbreaking dynasties.

07-23-2012, 09:11 AM	#1937
bronconick College Starter Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Kalamazoo, MI	Hell, Bolden's tried to transfer like threeve times already. Surprised he hasn't already announced that he's gone.

07-23-2012, 09:12 AM	#1939
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	I certainly hope they are planning to surcharge the tickets by a considerable amount(20-30$ each) in order to pay this massive(and justified) fine.

07-23-2012, 09:13 AM	#1940
Poli FOFC Survivor Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Wentzville, MO	I'd be checking the want ads as a coach as well. __________________ Cheer for a walk on quarterback! Ardent leads the Vols in the dynasty forum.

07-23-2012, 09:14 AM	#1943
Ben E Lou Morgado's Favorite Forum Fascist Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC	Hmmm...am I reading this right that they get to pay the fine over a 5-year period? __________________ The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'!

07-23-2012, 09:15 AM	#1944
saldana Pro Starter Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Bethlehem, Pa	dola, they just announced the 60 mil is actually 12 mil a year for 5 years, so the impact on the other sports will be significantly less.

07-23-2012, 09:15 AM	#1945
Kodos Resident Alien Join Date: Jun 2001	It would probably blow Penn State fans minds if you had told them a year ago where their program would be today. __________________ Author of The Bill Gates Challenge, as well as other groundbreaking dynasties.

07-23-2012, 09:21 AM	#1947
Scoobz0202 Pro Rookie Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Dayton, Ohio	So these scholarship reductions with a bowl ban essentially make them a FCS school right?

07-23-2012, 09:24 AM	#1950
panerd Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: St. Louis	So this this make Pitt football a monster now? (No joke intended here either, can't think of any other powerhouse Penn schools)

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