Maximum Football???

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

i already have my defenders over there:

Donkey Dong to the rescue

[Bee]

Originally Posted by John Galt

Yeah, that was a good one. It feels so long ago.

Yep, that was soooo 1000 posts ago.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Alert the media!

Look for my editorial in the NY Times tomorrow.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Donkey Dong to the rescue

I'm sure nakedzorro backs him as well.

ok bye.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

This game isn't going to be good. You could give them five more years. Maybe the dev process wasn't up to snuff, but I think you would expect that from a small dev house. Trying to combine 3D and text simming is the core problem and the additional complexity highlights a smaller developer's lack of process.

There's a reason why SI doesn't have 3D graphics in their games and a reason why EA Sport's Total Club Manager (soccer) was mediocre as both a simulation and an arcade game. Someone with far more limited resources thinking they could pull off the combo of good simulation and arcade style graphics didn't bother to scope the project. Which is why it's taken so long to this point with no tangible results and an apparently mediocre product.

but what i don't understand is people don't have a problem with 2D dots reenacting the action in Football Manager, why do they have a problem with 3D player models in MF? is it just cuz we know football more so we can spot the problems? i know jack about soccer and i couldn't tell you if one of the 2D dots was in the right spot or made a move that corresponded to the text. at this point i'd rather MF's players to 2D dots (no offense to Marc). i'm not apologizing for MF. for me the humor in all this was the handling of this the release date. it was never about shitting on a indie developer who bit off more than he can chew. sometimes when you aim big you miss big. i won't buy this game but i can respect trying to bring an idea to fruition. if only they weren't clueless on how to run a company i think you'd find more supporters than just the blind fanboys.

[ShaefIllini]

My goal is to have the most kick ass football game around...and have it Canadian rules.

This is a quote from Daivd in the sportplanet interview. This has to be a repost, I can't believe everyone would have missed it. The entire interview is pure comedy gold actually.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

but what i don't understand is people don't have a problem with 2D dots reenacting the action in Football Manager, why do they have a problem with 3D player models in MF? is it just cuz we know football more so we can spot the problems? i know jack about soccer and i couldn't tell you if one of the 2D dots was in the right spot or made a move that corresponded to the text. at this point i'd rather MF's players to 2D dots (no offense to Marc). i'm not apologizing for MF. for me the humor in all this was the handling of this the release date. it was never about shitting on a indie developer who bit off more than he can chew. sometimes when you aim big you miss big. i won't buy this game but i can respect trying to bring an idea to fruition. if only they weren't clueless on how to run a company i think you'd find more supporters than just the blind fanboys.

When you go from a 2D representation to 3D graphics you bring in SO many more elements. You're actually seeing the players and their motions, versus vague representations of their overall music. If we saw a little dot run a slant route and then a ball end up in his hands we say "ok, cool, I completed a slant". If we see a 3d graphical guy run open then turn backwards to run across the feild in a "slant" backwards, and then the ball is thrown by the qb, passes THROUGH a lineman, gets the wr, where it sticks inside his belly, with his hands coming down 1/2 a second later we notice some issues.

Did that make sense? I seem to be in ramble mode today.

[BrianD]

If this game was billed as a text-sim with an added graphical representation of the action, I would think the graphics were fine. Since this game is touting its graphics, it is fair game to mock the cheesiness of the graphics.

[Bee]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

but what i don't understand is people don't have a problem with 2D dots reenacting the action in Football Manager, why do they have a problem with 3D player models in MF? is it just cuz we know football more so we can spot the problems? i know jack about soccer and i couldn't tell you if one of the 2D dots was in the right spot or made a move that corresponded to the text. at this point i'd rather MF's players to 2D dots (no offense to Marc). i'm not apologizing for MF. for me the humor in all this was the handling of this the release date. it was never about shitting on a indie developer who bit off more than he can chew. sometimes when you aim big you miss big. i won't buy this game but i can respect trying to bring an idea to fruition. if only they weren't clueless on how to run a company i think you'd find more supporters than just the blind fanboys.

I think this is a good point, but I think there's a reason behind the acceptance of a 2D display featuring circles and the dislike of a badly constructed 3D model. In the FM case, the developer is putting forth what is obviously not supposed to be an accurate representation of the players but an accurate simulation of their movement on the field. I think it succeeds pretty well, although my soccer knowledge isn't that great. In the other case, with Maxi Football...the 3D player models intimates a representation of the players AND their movements on the field. From what I've seen it fails in both regards. I think Maxi Football would have been better off with an X's and O's representation of accurate football movement than the bad 3D models that were created. In any case, I think the graphics themselves are only a small part of the problem that Maxi Football will have.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by wade moore

When you go from a 2D representation to 3D graphics you bring in SO many more elements. You're actually seeing the players and their motions, versus vague representations of their overall music. If we saw a little dot run a slant route and then a ball end up in his hands we say "ok, cool, I completed a slant". If we see a 3d graphical guy run open then turn backwards to run across the feild in a "slant" backwards, and then the ball is thrown by the qb, passes THROUGH a lineman, gets the wr, where it sticks inside his belly, with his hands coming down 1/2 a second later we notice some issues.

Did that make sense? I seem to be in ramble mode today.

i understand you. but i guess i don't scrutinize my games that closely (graphically speaking). i'm much more critical of the text sim aspect of text sim games. the graphical part (2D dots in FM, 3D players in MF or Madden) are more icing on the cake. i concern myself more with the boxscore. did my team follow my gameplan or did i waste my time with all the gameplan screens? that sort of thing. the graphical element is more of a "visual aid" sort of thing.

and of course, there's the expectations aspect - first time game from an indie developer. hell, look how long it's taken Markus to get OOTP right and it still has some glaring issues. not sure what people were expecting with the game. that's why i say i find the humor in how they're botching the release date and their lack of PR. that's funny. a guy trying to advance a niche genre not realizing the undertaking he put himself in? meh, not as funny.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by BrianD

If this game was billed as a text-sim with an added graphical representation of the action, I would think the graphics were fine. Since this game is touting its graphics, it is fair game to mock the cheesiness of the graphics.

exactly. i wish they would have made this disctinction. people would have calibrated their expectations accordingly.

[Bee]

They've actually gone out of their way to separate the game from the text sim style football games.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Bee

They've actually gone out of their way to separate the game from the text sim style football games.

Principally by disparaging the latter. Slick move, that.

[FrogMan]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Principally by disparaging the latter. Slick move, that.

was gonna use "shitting on" but yeah, that works too...

FM

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

but what i don't understand is people don't have a problem with 2D dots reenacting the action in Football Manager, why do they have a problem with 3D player models in MF? is it just cuz we know football more so we can spot the problems? i know jack about soccer and i couldn't tell you if one of the 2D dots was in the right spot or made a move that corresponded to the text. at this point i'd rather MF's players to 2D dots (no offense to Marc). i'm not apologizing for MF. for me the humor in all this was the handling of this the release date. it was never about shitting on a indie developer who bit off more than he can chew. sometimes when you aim big you miss big. i won't buy this game but i can respect trying to bring an idea to fruition. if only they weren't clueless on how to run a company i think you'd find more supporters than just the blind fanboys.

The 2D dots for the most part do. And they are backed up by an excellent simulation engine, which is the true core of it. EA Sports' Total Club Manager is probably the better parallel since it tried to do what is being done here and succeeded in doing neither well.

The implication of focusing on 3D development, especially as a small developer, is that you are forced to spend a lot more resources on graphics rather than gameplay. That means the either the gameplay will suffer or the release date will stretch. It's not about shitting on an indie developer, but it's obvious to me what they did wrong to get to this point and because of that, why this will not be a good game. I agree that it really comes down to being clueless as to how to run a company as it's really more of an understanding of how to scope the size of what you are doing, rather than the actual doing of it.

If I have the opportunity to eat crow in a few months, I'll gladly do it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Anyway, that's no big deal, except for the fact that I had a mouthful of pudding at the time. Anyone ever heard a true "PLUD" sound? Well, I now have. It's like no sound I've ever heard.

And therein lies the real beauty of Mxaimum Ftooblla, it's customizability.

With this MF, it doesn't have to be pudding, it can be anything. Canadian Bacon, Chicken Soup, a Mars Bar, scrapple ... whatever you want.

[Godzilla Blitz]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

I have to think that the no-demo strategy is a wise decision, honestly. You get the already-bagged-and-tagged fanboi audience right away before there's any word of mouth, and then you're bound to get stragglers purchasing the game over time, even if there's no good buzz for the game.

I have to think it's the same deal at work here. Sell the game based on the promised features list, not on the actual execution. And no refunds.

Matrix is in way over their heads on this one, but I'm guessing that they are not the type of company to withhold a demo in hopes of maximizing sales. My impression of them is that they are very much a gamer's company. Releasing an awful game with no refund policy would do more harm than good. I'm guessing that there simply isn't a demo available, and getting one ready at this point could likely take a long time, given the lethargic pace of development the game has seen.

They are likely between a rock and a hard place at this point. I would think they must be getting an indication that the game isn't ready for release, but they likely have some kind of contract with Daivd that commits them to releasing the game. If I were Matrix, sitting there with an awful game in no state of release, yet facing likely legal complications with Daivd if the game doesn't get released, I would likely release the game with a money-back guarantee. But so much of this is speculation, and I'd love to hear what type of business arrangement they have with Daivd. Who knows, maybe the game is awesome and we'll all love it.

And for the record, I am not Blitzberger on the Matrix forums.

[albionmoonlight]

THEY RELEASED SCREEN SHOTS WHERE THE DEVELOPER MIS-SPELLED HIS OWN NAME!

Let's not lose sight of things here, people.

If this guy had worked hard and gotten all the little details right and expressed a positive attitude and a willingness to listen to his customers . . . and only failed because his ability did not quite match his vision, I am sure that the community here would be behind him 1000%. We would appreciate what he was trying to do and respect that he was trying his best to do it.

But, he's been a jerk and made comical errors that indicate a woeful lack of attention to detail and a slackass effort. That's the combination that has made this gold, IMO.

[Bonegavel]

duh duh duh... duh duh duuuuuh. duh duh duh duuuuh duh duh duh duh duh

[QuikSand]

Very fair assessment, GB -- I hope you're right and I'm wrong. I would liek for Matrix to at least retain its dignity through this (though I have no other dealings with them).

[Godzilla Blitz]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

THEY RELEASED SCREEN SHOTS WHERE THE DEVELOPER MIS-SPELLED HIS OWN NAME!

Let's not lose sight of things here, people.

If this guy had worked hard and gotten all the little details right and expressed a positive attitude and a willingness to listen to his customers . . . and only failed because his ability did not quite match his vision, I am sure that the community here would be behind him 1000%. We would appreciate what he was trying to do and respect that he was trying his best to do it.

I sincerely hope the game is successful, but all indications are that it will be a disaster. To me the greatest single indicator revolves around Quiksand's comment earlier in this thread about the complexity of programming an AI to effectively handle different rule sets, different numbers of players on the field, and different field dimensions. Programming an AI to handle so many variables strikes me as being nearly an impossibly difficult task, let alone one that someone could handle on their own. I would think that before someone thought about making such a game, they would instantly realize the enormity of trying to program an AI to handle it and turn down the “customizability” a bit.

Fine, I thought, maybe the programmer is brilliant. But when I read a comment from the programmer that the gamer must choose playoff teams manually because the routine to select playoff teams would be too complex to program given all the league variables, the warning buzzer on this game went off full tilt. To me, writing such an algorithm seems straightforward compared to the enormity of writing code to handle so much on-field complexity.

Again, I wish nothing but success for the game, but...the omens are bad and I will wait for others to report of the game's brilliance before I buy this one.

[FrogMan]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

THEY RELEASED SCREEN SHOTS WHERE THE DEVELOPER MIS-SPELLED HIS OWN NAME!

Speaking of which, I don't think I'll ever be able to spel Daivd the right way ever again. DAMN! did it again!

DAIVD, DAIVD, DAIVD!!!

AAAARRRRRRRGGGG!!!!

DAIVD!!!



FM

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Godzilla Blitz

I sincerely hope the game is successful, but all indications are that it will be a disaster. To me the greatest single indicator revolves around Quiksand's comment earlier in this thread about the complexity of programming an AI to effectively handle different rule sets, different numbers of players on the field, and different field dimensions. Programming an AI to handle so many variables strikes me as being nearly an impossibly difficult task, let alone one that someone could handle on their own. I would think that before someone thought about making such a game, they would instantly realize the enormity of trying to program an AI to handle it and turn down the “customizability” a bit.

Fine, I thought, maybe the programmer is brilliant. But when I read a comment from the programmer that the gamer must choose playoff teams manually because the routine to select playoff teams would be too complex to program given all the league variables, the warning buzzer on this game went off full tilt. To me, writing such an algorithm seems straightforward compared to the enormity of writing code to handle so much on-field complexity.

Again, I wish nothing but success for the game, but...the omens are bad and I will wait for others to report of the game's brilliance before I buy this one.

He is counting on the gamers to come up with custom playbooks to handle whatever rule-set (and field dimensions, number of players, etc.) that they are using. And counting on gamers to not use plays that are AI-busters.

Sounds like there will have to be about an encyclopedia-full of house rules to make this game even remotely playable.

[Bee]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

THEY RELEASED SCREEN SHOTS WHERE THE DEVELOPER MIS-SPELLED HIS OWN NAME!

Let's not lose sight of things here, people.

If this guy had worked hard and gotten all the little details right and expressed a positive attitude and a willingness to listen to his customers . . . and only failed because his ability did not quite match his vision, I am sure that the community here would be behind him 1000%. We would appreciate what he was trying to do and respect that he was trying his best to do it.

But, he's been a jerk and made comical errors that indicate a woeful lack of attention to detail and a slackass effort. That's the combination that has made this gold, IMO.

That's very true. This community has supported a lot of other small developers even when the games were somewhat lacking because of future potential and a good attitude.

[MIJB#19]

This thread has gone gold.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Godzilla Blitz

IBut when I read a comment from the programmer that the gamer must choose playoff teams manually because the routine to select playoff teams would be too complex to program given all the league variables, the warning buzzer on this game went off full tilt. To me, writing such an algorithm seems straightforward compared to the enormity of writing code to handle so much on-field complexity.

I see a whole new sub-chapter of this thread forming... Tell everyone at what point did you discover that this game was going to be a joke. Lots of promise there.

[JeeberD]

Damn...did anyone see what was in the "Message for the flamers" thread?

[Bee]

Originally Posted by Godzilla Blitz

I sincerely hope the game is successful, but all indications are that it will be a disaster. To me the greatest single indicator revolves around Quiksand's comment earlier in this thread about the complexity of programming an AI to effectively handle different rule sets, different numbers of players on the field, and different field dimensions. Programming an AI to handle so many variables strikes me as being nearly an impossibly difficult task, let alone one that someone could handle on their own. I would think that before someone thought about making such a game, they would instantly realize the enormity of trying to program an AI to handle it and turn down the “customizability” a bit.

Fine, I thought, maybe the programmer is brilliant. But when I read a comment from the programmer that the gamer must choose playoff teams manually because the routine to select playoff teams would be too complex to program given all the league variables, the warning buzzer on this game went off full tilt. To me, writing such an algorithm seems straightforward compared to the enormity of writing code to handle so much on-field complexity.

Again, I wish nothing but success for the game, but...the omens are bad and I will wait for others to report of the game's brilliance before I buy this one.

Something else that sent off alarms for me was that he thought the Georgia Tech mascot was a bulldog. Now, it's one thing if he were developing a CFL only game but this game is being billed as a game that can simulate college football, Pro football, etc. I'm sorry, but if he doesn't even know basic college football information why should I expect him to understand the various styles of college football playbooks out there.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

Damn...did anyone see what was in the "Message for the flamers" thread?

Yeah, we've really brought them to a new level...

Our babies are growing up!

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Bee

I'm sorry, but if he doesn't even know basic college football information why should I expect him to understand the various styles of college football playbooks out there.

Umm ... you shouldn't?

That's another area where I expect there to be some UIC (if this thing ever sees the light of day that is) -- I bet the stock playbooks are going to be a sight to behold.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Honestly, though -- if a demo was as illuminating as the screenshots have been, how many people would try the demo and then decide that they liked the game enough to buy it?

I have to think that the no-demo strategy is a wise decision, honestly. You get the already-bagged-and-tagged fanboi audience right away before there's any word of mouth, and then you're bound to get stragglers purchasing the game over time, even if there's no good buzz for the game.

Demos work both ways -- sort of like special movie screenings for critics. When you know your movie stinks, the last thing you want to do is let the critics see it and pan it before it opens. So, you don't run a preview, and let it open unadorned. Voila -- you at least get an opening weekend out of it before word mf mouth crushes the movie.

I have to think it's the same deal at work here. Sell the game based on the promised features list, not on the actual execution. And no refunds.

word mf mouth? Was that an intentional typo? Because if so, its subtlety is awesome!

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Umm ... you shouldn't?

That's another area where I expect there to be some UIC (if this thing ever sees the light of day that is) -- I bet the stock playbooks are going to be a sight to behold.

Also, picking out the pirated logos should be a blast.

I'll bet you he learns which schools have which mascots when he gets his ass sued off for copying them without permission.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Bee

Something else that sent off alarms for me was that he thought the Georgia Tech mascot was a bulldog. Now, it's one thing if he were developing a CFL only game but this game is being billed as a game that can simulate college football, Pro football, etc. I'm sorry, but if he doesn't even know basic college football information why should I expect him to understand the various styles of college football playbooks out there.

The guy has a MAJOR Canadian chip on his shoulder. Did you catch the snide-looking comment in the sportplanet interview about wanting to create a CFL sim "so I wouldn't have to play with guys I'd never heard of" or something along those lines. He doesn't just go out of his way to dis text sim developers. He goes out of his way to dis the NFL, too.

[FrogMan]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

The guy has a MAJOR Canadian chip on his shoulder. Did you catch the snide-looking comment in the sportplanet interview about wanting to create a CFL sim "so I wouldn't have to play with guys I'd never heard of" or something along those lines. He doesn't just go out of his way to dis text sim developers. He goes out of his way to dis the NFL, too.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!

I have not read that interview but let me tell you this, theres more of a chance of that happening with a CFL game than with an NFL game, at least for me

Should I consider myself a special breed of canuck?

FM

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Bee

Something else that sent off alarms for me was that he thought the Georgia Tech mascot was a bulldog. Now, it's one thing if he were developing a CFL only game but this game is being billed as a game that can simulate college football, Pro football, etc. I'm sorry, but if he doesn't even know basic college football information why should I expect him to understand the various styles of college football playbooks out there.

I don't think it is far-fetched that someone from another country would mistake Georgia Tech for Georgia. Do you know the difference between Saskatchewan and Saskatchewan State? Probably not, because I most likely just made them up.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

I don't think it is far-fetched that someone from another country would mistake Georgia Tech for Georgia. Do you know the difference between Saskatchewan and Saskatchewan State? Probably not, because I most likely just made them up.

Saskatchewan State is the agricultural school

Edit: Although with no states in Canada, I guess that would be hard

[Bonegavel]

Looks like we aren't the first folks that have had to wait for this.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

I don't think it is far-fetched that someone from another country would mistake Georgia Tech for Georgia. Do you know the difference between Saskatchewan and Saskatchewan State? Probably not, because I most likely just made them up.

Is Bee trying to sell you a football sim that supposedly can be used to play Canadian college football?

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

I don't think it is far-fetched that someone from another country would mistake Georgia Tech for Georgia. Do you know the difference between Saskatchewan and Saskatchewan State? Probably not, because I most likely just made them up.

But if I were creating a resource, part of the appeal of which is its ability to mimic Canadian colleges, then you might reasonably expect me to know the basics of Canadian colleges.

No one is faulting him for not knowing Georgia's mascot as a Canadian (well, SkyDog probably is, but on one else). But I think that it is reasonable to wonder how much research he did about American College Football before he tried to sell us a game based on the fact that it can mimic American College Football.

[gstelmack]

I'd like to propose a new rule for this thread: if you see something cool in the Matrix Games forum and want to comment on it here, please quote the original thread! Some of us barely have time to read this thread as it is, and by the time you make some obscure reference to something over there, we trudge on over, and we finally find whatever it was you were referring to, we usually find that it's been deleted/banned/edited/whatever, and then we've missed some great chunk of comedy.

So please, do us all a favor and not just say "Did you see what was said in thread X?" No, I didn't, please please please please please let me in on it!

[SFL Cat]

Aw...message to the flamers has been *snipped*

Anyone know what it said?

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

Aw...message to the flamers has been *snipped*

Anyone know what it said?

It just had an image attached of about 15 people in a shallow body of water (river, lake, something) mooning the camera.

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by dervack

Err, I might be getting the form letter of death apparently if I don't edit my sig...

Dammit, they found a way to get to your sig. You must change it back!

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

Do you know the difference between Saskatchewan and Saskatchewan State?

No, they're irrelevant.

[Bee]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

But if I were creating a resource, part of the appeal of which is its ability to mimic Canadian colleges, then you might reasonably expect me to know the basics of Canadian colleges.

No one is faulting him for not knowing Georgia's mascot as a Canadian (well, SkyDog probably is, but on one else). But I think that it is reasonable to wonder how much research he did about American College Football before he tried to sell us a game based on the fact that it can mimic American College Football.

Exactly. Like I said, if he were creating a CFL only game...I might have thought it odd he didn't know basic college football information but it wouldn't have been a major concern. But he's selling the game as being flexible enough to allow me to run an NFL league, A CFL league, an Arena football league, college, high school, etc. If that's the case, he should have a reasonable level of knowledge of the basics and how each of those differ. Even assuming he's relying on me to create the playbooks, teams, players, etc.....without an understanding of the various styles of football, how could he possibly program the AI to react accordingly.

[Bee]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Is Bee trying to sell you a football sim that supposedly can be used to play Canadian college football?

No, but I do have tickets to the beer tent on sale for $45.

[sachmo71]

Has anyone done a thread summary yet? Flere?

[KWhit]

This exchange was pretty good. Especially Dong's response at the end.

Jennifer Winter? - 2/28/2006 3:01:43 PM darthrider Matrix Recruit Posts: 7 Joined: 1/5/2006 Status: online I read another article about Maximum Football, I thought your name was Vicki?? Report | Post #: 1

RE: Jennifer Winter? - 2/28/2006 3:05:18 PM Jennifer L. Winter Matrix Trooper Posts: 28 Joined: 2/15/2006 Status: online That would be David's EX-GIRLFRIEND. I am the one and only Mrs. Winter. I have the rings and photos to prove it. _____________________________ Jennifer L. Winter Media Relations Wintervalley Software (in reply to darthrider) Report | Post #: 2

RE: Jennifer Winter? - 2/28/2006 3:11:01 PM Erik Rutins Administrator Posts: 6845 Joined: 3/28/2000 From: Vermont, USA Status: online quote: ORIGINAL: darthrider I read another article about Maximum Football, I thought your name was Vicki?? Do you enjoy living dangerously? Regards, - Erik _____________________________ Erik Rutins Director of Product Development and Business Relations (in reply to darthrider) Report | Post #: 3

RE: Jennifer Winter? - 2/28/2006 3:17:38 PM darthrider Matrix Recruit Posts: 7 Joined: 1/5/2006 Status: online I just happened to be reading an article about the start of MF in 2000 and David mentioned his wife Vicki and two dogs! (in reply to Erik Rutins) Report | Post #: 4

RE: Jennifer Winter? - 2/28/2006 3:19:21 PM donkeydong12 Matrix Recruit Posts: 6 Joined: 2/23/2006 Status: online quote: ORIGINAL: darthrider I just happened to be reading an article about the start of MF in 2000 and David mentioned his wife Vicki and two dogs! DOH! (in reply to darthrider) Report | Post #: 5

RE: Jennifer Winter? - 2/28/2006 3:20:45 PM Jennifer L. Winter Matrix Trooper Posts: 28 Joined: 2/15/2006 Status: online Well, I don't know where you live, but in Canada if you live with someone for over six months they can be considered your "common-law" spouse. I know I'll have some 'splainin to do. _____________________________ Jennifer L. Winter Media Relations Wintervalley Software (in reply to darthrider) Report | Post #: 6

RE: Jennifer Winter? - 2/28/2006 3:23:33 PM darthrider Matrix Recruit Posts: 7 Joined: 1/5/2006 Status: online you have some splanin to do? (in reply to Jennifer L. Winter) Report | Post #: 7

RE: Jennifer Winter? - 2/28/2006 3:23:40 PM Marauders Matrix Hero Posts: 330 Joined: 3/17/2005 From: Minnesota Status: online quote: David mentioned his wife Vicki and two dogs That's better than his dog named Vicki and his two wives! As far as the forum goes, it may be better to regard Jennifer as the PR person for Wintervalley Software rather than as David's wife. She does hold both titles, but the former is the only one that really matters here. (in reply to darthrider) Report | Post #: 8

RE: Jennifer Winter? - 2/28/2006 3:24:47 PM rroberson Matrix Legion of Merit Posts: 1074 Joined: 5/25/2004 Status: online I do like pictures . We had elvis marry us...can you top that? _____________________________ (in reply to Jennifer L. Winter) Report | Post #: 9

RE: Jennifer Winter? - 2/28/2006 3:26:00 PM Jennifer L. Winter Matrix Trooper Posts: 28 Joined: 2/15/2006 Status: online Mr darthrider: We have asked our feeder lady - Jennifer Winter - to address the dog comment. We are, most decidedly, NOT dogs. Although we do now share our abode with a canine, we never have been, nor will be dogs! See below. Sincerely, Hobbes Orenthal Winter and Tiger T.C. Winter Attachment (1) _____________________________ Jennifer L. Winter Media Relations Wintervalley Software (in reply to darthrider) Report | Post #: 10

RE: Jennifer Winter? - 2/28/2006 3:27:58 PM darthrider Matrix Recruit Posts: 7 Joined: 1/5/2006 Status: online nice cats! Just goes to show you can't believe half of what you read. (in reply to Jennifer L. Winter) Report | Post #: 11

RE: Jennifer Winter? - 2/28/2006 3:35:39 PM donkeydong12 Matrix Recruit Posts: 6 Joined: 2/23/2006 Status: online I heard Vicki was hotter. (in reply to darthrider) Report | Post #: 12

[JPhillips]

The Greeks had a word for Winters' problem.

HUBRIS

His pride has killed him on this game. He was(maybe still is) convinced that he could provide a football game that does everything. Nothing was too much for him. He'd have 3D graphics, multiple rule sets, career tracking, stats, everything that he could think of, and he'd do it all for version 1.0.

He made it impossible for success from the very beginning because he believed he alone could do something that no one else would ever attempt.

[Desnudo]

donkeydong is running amok.