2010 NCAA Tournament (and NIT) Thread

[Abe Sargent]

Let's go WVU!!!!!

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Make no mistake here, the end of the XU/K-State game was fun to watch, just the sheer back & forth, can-you-top-that nature of it. But in the end it was also two teams I had zero interest in, couldn't even find a rooting interest while watching it, and was neither the first nor the last damned good finish I've seen before or during the tournament. If I had needed the sleep, I'm not sure how big a sense of loss I would have had under those circumstances.

I would argue that the tournament isn't for you. Or a lot of major sporting events that don't require emotional investment in a team. The NCAA tournament is more about the drama of a one-and-done tournament with the top teams in the country. Of joining an office pool and following along. Or just getting the thrill out of seeing elite level college basketball in such high quantities.

Nothing wrong with being a fan who only cares about his alma mater or schools in the region. But things like the Super Bowl, NCAA Tournament, NBA Finals, and World Series are just not catered to you.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by rowech

Then enjoy the tournament on ESPN.

Is that a bad thing? Considering I have 5 ESPN channels (4 in HD) along with ABC in my home, I'm guessing that every single tournament game will be available for me on my giant flat screen TV in HD. With how well CBS has been switching games, I don't think ESPN is a bad spot for the tournament.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Is that a bad thing? Considering I have 5 ESPN channels (4 in HD) along with ABC in my home, I'm guessing that every single tournament game will be available for me on my giant flat screen TV in HD. With how well CBS has been switching games, I don't think ESPN is a bad spot for the tournament.

I agree! People are always hating on ESPN for some reason. Ive never seen them cut off a game in a huge moment of the game.

[Abe Sargent]

BOOm!

[B & B]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Watch out Ktuck. When Butler is on WV is unbeatable.

That for should.

[Eaglesfan27]

Obvious travel ignored there.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't see how anything changes. These networks understand that some years you get the good matchups, some years you don't.

The tournament is popular for what it is. A massive single elimination tournament on neutral court. Any major changes to that format eliminates what makes it so much fun. The talk of expansion would be a major change, but that's not going to change who you see in the Final Four. In fact, it just leaves the opportunity for big name schools to get knocked out more often.

And the more anonymous teams that are in the tournament, the lower the percentage of "good matchups" that exist, the lower the interest in the tournament in general.

What changes do you feel we'll all be punished with if CBS doesn't draw great ratings? Because when I watch these games, the last thing I care about is what CBS thinks of it.

As I said, at this point I believe ratings are down far enough relative to cost that it probably won't ultimately determine what CBS does if the NCAA opts out (oddly, a major league tanking might make the NCAA less likely to opt out). But the steady decline of ratings in the past decade topped off with a stinker? That makes any hope of CBS rebidding seem extremely faint indeed. And for as aggravated as I've been this year with CBS' coverage decision, I believe the tournament on ESPN would border on unwatchable (at least for me).

[Noop]

Kentucky is getting hosed by the refs.

[RainMaker]

Doesn't seem like a technical should have been called on that in a game like this. Probably should have told the kid to knock it off.

[Lathum]

John Wall is fast, we get it.

[Noop]

Terrible refs.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

But things like the Super Bowl, NCAA Tournament, NBA Finals, and World Series are just not catered to you.

Y'know, I might not argue that point a whole lot. With the exception of having a rooting interest (or interesting commercials to watch), the NCAA tournament is the only one of those I'll watch significant amounts of, completely content to check the scores during the game online out of curiosity and do something else that's more entertaining to me.

But your argument actually presents an interesting ... I dunno, almost paradox.
Each of those events (and similar ones) are usually described as being geared for the casual "fan" as opposed to the actual regular fan.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Didn't even realize the game was on today. Congrats to Butler, I had a feeling this was a mid-major's year and after their Syracuse thumping the other night, I felt like they were the one team that was driven to get to Indy and make it personal.

As for the naysayers who believe there's no way they can win...I dunno, anything can happen on the big stage. Should they win? No, but realistically, the fact they managed to beat the #1 and #2 team in their bracket to get here proves they're not joking around.

These dudes aren't Cornell, either. I feel like they have a legit shot at this thing. I mean, this is no repeat of George Mason. If it was UNC as a 5-seed or some other name school rather than Butler, the conversation wouldn't be so steered towards them wilting under the "bright lights" when it should've happened already.

I feel the same way towards Butler as I did towards Michign State last year. Could they win? Absolutely. Do I expect them to win? Absolutely not. I could be wrong but that seemed to be the consensus opinion last year. Other than MSU fans, I don't remember anyone coming to the defense of or claiming disrespect of a "big name" school with multiple Final Four appearances and national champioinships to their name.

I love the "mid major" programs. I really do. And yes, they do not get enough credit for their accomplishments. But I am sorry, Butler is NOT a "mid major" program. Eight 20 wins season in the last ten, multiple Sweet Sixteen appearances and now a Final Four appearance. Butler does not need anyone to feel sorry for it. Do I consider them massive underdogs going into the Final Four? Yes, but it is not because their name is Butler or because they get no respect. It will be because when I compare their team to say Kentucky, I believe that Kentucky is a better team and if I had to bet my mortagage on a team it would be Kentucky. That is it. Funny, I would probably say the same thing about MSU,Tenn.,Baylor. I don't expect people to come out of the woodwork defending those teams. I am beginning to wonder if defenders of teams like Butler are helping or hurting their cause. Hell, the true Cinderella story team this year in my opinion is Baylor. Check out their recent history, compare it to Butler and tell me who is the true "mid major" program.

[JPhillips]

I bet I could have made big money on a bet that WV wouldn't make a two point basket in the first half and still be ahead.

I don't think I've ever seen a game where one team couldn't sink a two pointer in a half.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I bet I could have made big money on a bet that WV wouldn't make a two point basket in the first half and still be ahead.

I don't think I've ever seen a game where one team couldn't sink a two pointer in a half.

They look like Beilein's team in the first half, not Huggins's/

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And the more anonymous teams that are in the tournament, the lower the percentage of "good matchups" that exist, the lower the interest in the tournament in general.

As I said, at this point I believe ratings are down far enough relative to cost that it probably won't ultimately determine what CBS does if the NCAA opts out (oddly, a major league tanking might make the NCAA less likely to opt out). But the steady decline of ratings in the past decade topped off with a stinker? That makes any hope of CBS rebidding seem extremely faint indeed. And for as aggravated as I've been this year with CBS' coverage decision, I believe the tournament on ESPN would border on unwatchable (at least for me).

The tournament has been the same for decades. It's always had upsets and anonymous teams going deep. I don't see how that has more of an impact now on ratings then it did on them 10 years ago.

Again, I don't see how you can change anything in that regard. The same thing that puts anonymous teams deep in the tournament is the same thing that makes the tournament so much fun (unpredictability, do-or-die games).

Any lower ratings have more to do with more options in households as well as the purging of talent from college basketball by the NBA (thanks to the money and their expansion of teams).

[Swaggs]

Holy crap -- my stomach is doing somersaults!

I wish I had a pedometer on, so I could see how many miles I will have paced by the end of the game.

[jbergey22]

I'm not sure that agree with you Jon.

Cinderella will always sell. The hype machine for Butler vs Kentucky would be able to sell this matchup. I actually think this would bring in more viewers than your typical North Carolina vs Kansas-like matchup that we see every year.

[rowech]

The one thing I'm really surprised CBS never pushed for is a reseeding of the final four once the four teams are there to try and maximize the chances for the best matchup in the final game.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by rowech

The one thing I'm really surprised CBS never pushed for is a reseeding of the final four once the four teams are there to try and maximize the chances for the best matchup in the final game.

Hurts one of the best selling points of the tournament, everyone's office pool.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

This is probably the most exciting tournament I've ever seen. I loved 2006 for its starpower but this one just has so many more close games.

I'm torn on this tournament. I mean, close endings are great don't get me wrong, and maybe in the end I shouldn't care how they got there but the quality of play in this tournament seems to be the worst I can remember. The close endings seem to me because no one is capable of scoring and putting another team away.

Maybe we can blame it on the 2OT game the other night, but K-State played like shit today. Butler kept them alive by turning it over 20 times and barely managing to break 60. But really shouldn't Butler have won that game 80-50? Butler just was incapable of finishing and putting them away.

WVU and Kentucky aren't impressive at all. West Virginia is shooting 25%, yeah I know, look at all those threes. I don't care, they hit 8 shots in the half. They didn't hit a single shot inside the 3 point arc. And they're winning? Yep, Kentucky has 10 turnovers, has only managed to earn assists on 4 baskets, and is shooting a really shitty 35% themselves. At least 4 of the turnovers on Kentucky's part are guys just losing the ball out of bounds/straight up awful passes, completely unforced. I don't think you can claim good defense.


Today to me is a pretty good reference for the entire tournament that I've watched. Terrible shooting, terrble ball handling, unforced turnovers all over the place, lots of supposedly good offensive teams scoring in the 50s, and just lots of bad play in general allowing teams to hang around to generate good endings.

I've still had fun watching the tournament, and kansas state/xavier is a game i won't soon forget, but I don't think i've ever seen a tournament where the play has been so poor as a whole.

[B & B]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

Holy crap -- my stomach is doing somersaults!

I wish I had a pedometer on, so I could see how many miles I will have paced by the end of the game.

Id recommend opening some scotch or whiskey immediately.

Kentucky wins this game late, somewhere between 1-4 points most likely.

Call it a hunch, feel free to quote this when the games over.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I bet I could have made big money on a bet that WV wouldn't make a two point basket in the first half and still be ahead.

I don't think I've ever seen a game where one team couldn't sink a two pointer in a half.

Although unexpected, after watching this team play 35 games this year I wouldn't have touched that bet. This is the oddest offensive team I've ever seen.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Radii

I'm torn on this tournament. I mean, close endings are great don't get me wrong, and maybe in the end I shouldn't care how they got there but the quality of play in this tournament seems to be the worst I can remember. The close endings seem to me because no one is capable of scoring and putting another team away.

Maybe we can blame it on the 2OT game the other night, but K-State played like shit today. Butler kept them alive by turning it over 20 times and barely managing to break 60. But really shouldn't Butler have won that game 80-50? Butler just was incapable of finishing and putting them away.

WVU and Kentucky aren't impressive at all. West Virginia is shooting 25%, yeah I know, look at all those threes. I don't care, they hit 8 shots in the half. They didn't hit a single shot inside the 3 point arc. And they're winning? Yep, Kentucky has 10 turnovers, has only managed to earn assists on 4 baskets, and is shooting a really shitty 35% themselves. At least 4 of the turnovers on Kentucky's part are guys just losing the ball out of bounds/straight up awful passes, completely unforced. I don't think you can claim good defense.


Today to me is a pretty good reference for the entire tournament that I've watched. Terrible shooting, terrble ball handling, unforced turnovers all over the place, lots of supposedly good offensive teams scoring in the 50s, and just lots of bad play in general allowing teams to hang around to generate good endings.

I've still had fun watching the tournament, and kansas state/xavier is a game i won't soon forget, but I don't think i've ever seen a tournament where the play has been so poor as a whole.

To be fair, both WVU and UK had chump ways to the Elite Eight. WVu played the 15, 10 and 11 seeds. UK played the 16th, 9th and 12th. No one played a 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, or even 8 to get there, so this is their first test, in both senses, from the tourney. I expected to see a sloppy first half from both of them, remembering that.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by B & B

Id recommend opening some scotch or whiskey immediately.

Kentucky wins this game late, somewhere between 1-4 points most likely.

Call it a hunch, feel free to quote this when the games over.

I hope you are wrong, but everything is pretty much gravy, for me at least, from here on out. I'd love to get the win and be able to enjoy this run for another few days.

Fun fact -- WVU has played six straight games in the state of New York (w/o playing elsewhere) and won them all (3 at MSG, 2 at Buffalo, and now 1 here at Syracuse). Apparently, they played five straight in the state of Ohio a long time ago (and went 0-5). Kind of an odd bit of data. Hopefully, we have one more left.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by Radii

I'm torn on this tournament. I mean, close endings are great don't get me wrong, and maybe in the end I shouldn't care how they got there but the quality of play in this tournament seems to be the worst I can remember. The close endings seem to me because no one is capable of scoring and putting another team away.

Maybe we can blame it on the 2OT game the other night, but K-State played like shit today. Butler kept them alive by turning it over 20 times and barely managing to break 60. But really shouldn't Butler have won that game 80-50? Butler just was incapable of finishing and putting them away.

WVU and Kentucky aren't impressive at all. West Virginia is shooting 25%, yeah I know, look at all those threes. I don't care, they hit 8 shots in the half. They didn't hit a single shot inside the 3 point arc. And they're winning? Yep, Kentucky has 10 turnovers, has only managed to earn assists on 4 baskets, and is shooting a really shitty 35% themselves. At least 4 of the turnovers on Kentucky's part are guys just losing the ball out of bounds/straight up awful passes, completely unforced. I don't think you can claim good defense.


Today to me is a pretty good reference for the entire tournament that I've watched. Terrible shooting, terrble ball handling, unforced turnovers all over the place, lots of supposedly good offensive teams scoring in the 50s, and just lots of bad play in general allowing teams to hang around to generate good endings.

I've still had fun watching the tournament, and kansas state/xavier is a game i won't soon forget, but I don't think i've ever seen a tournament where the play has been so poor as a whole.

Much of what you say is because the court is too narrow. Not that anyone hears me but I've been saying for several years now the basketball court needs to be widened. The players have evolved way too much in terms of their size and speed to keep playing with those dimensions.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Each of those events (and similar ones) are usually described as being geared for the casual "fan" as opposed to the actual regular fan.

I think depending on the sport, most people are both. I'm a huge Chicago Bulls fan, have season tickets and watch most of their games. I would never miss a playoff game on TV and would put my interest in them playing in the NBA Finals at a 10 out of 10. But if they don't make the Finals, I'll still probably watch it as a casual fan. I won't pace my floor and scream at the TV, but I'll enjoy it to a degree. I guess that makes me a casual fan for when the Bulls aren't in it and a regular fan for when they are.

Most major sporting events are geared toward the casual fan. But they get that regular fan too when their team is in the game. But from what you've been saying, I'm just pointing out that you don't seem to be a casual fan of the sport. You have to have an emotional interest in a team to watch the game. Nothing wrong with that, but most of the people here and those watching it on TV are not those kind of fans.

[jbergey22]

Kentucky feeling the pressure

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Radii

I'm torn on this tournament. I mean, close endings are great don't get me wrong, and maybe in the end I shouldn't care how they got there but the quality of play in this tournament seems to be the worst I can remember. The close endings seem to me because no one is capable of scoring and putting another team away.

Maybe we can blame it on the 2OT game the other night, but K-State played like shit today. Butler kept them alive by turning it over 20 times and barely managing to break 60. But really shouldn't Butler have won that game 80-50? Butler just was incapable of finishing and putting them away.

WVU and Kentucky aren't impressive at all. West Virginia is shooting 25%, yeah I know, look at all those threes. I don't care, they hit 8 shots in the half. They didn't hit a single shot inside the 3 point arc. And they're winning? Yep, Kentucky has 10 turnovers, has only managed to earn assists on 4 baskets, and is shooting a really shitty 35% themselves. At least 4 of the turnovers on Kentucky's part are guys just losing the ball out of bounds/straight up awful passes, completely unforced. I don't think you can claim good defense.

Today to me is a pretty good reference for the entire tournament that I've watched. Terrible shooting, terrble ball handling, unforced turnovers all over the place, lots of supposedly good offensive teams scoring in the 50s, and just lots of bad play in general allowing teams to hang around to generate good endings.

I've still had fun watching the tournament, and kansas state/xavier is a game i won't soon forget, but I don't think i've ever seen a tournament where the play has been so poor as a whole.

I don't think that's a problem of this tournament, it's just college basketball these days. Major programs simply can't groom a top recruit for 2-4 years. You get these teams like Kentucky who just haven't played much with each other. I think the one-and-done rule has hurt the NCAA more than it has helped. While you missed out on seeing some guys like John Wall and Kevin Durant, you go to see major programs keeping their nucleus for a few years (even if they had much less raw talent).

So you're seeing a lot of teams that just focus on defense. It's a sloppy, gritty game, but it works in this era.

Basically what I'm saying is that offense has gotten worse at this level.

[jbergey22]

Cousins is quite the character. I am enjoying the laugh at watching him.

[INDalltheway]

I can't really see how you can count Butler out in the Final Four after the teams they beat to get there. They force a certain pace and are just plain tough. Can't forget they were a preseason #11 team and they've won like 20+ games in a row.

[Swaggs]

I am hoping Cousins picks up #4 soon. He looks like he is getting frustrated by all the bodies pulling and leaning on him underneath. He is such a force inside.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by INDalltheway

I can't really see how you can count Butler out in the Final Four after the teams they beat to get there. They force a certain pace and are just plain tough. Can't forget they were a preseason #11 team and they've won like 20+ games in a row.

Im counting them out because they lost to the Gophers. And Ive seen how bad they are

Actually I think its just the general perception that athletically they shouldnt be able to compete.

[Abe Sargent]

Now its 11

[cmp]

John Wall is horrible on D.

[jbergey22]

Just foul Cousins every time. They wont be able to make up 11 points with him shooting FTs.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by INDalltheway

I can't really see how you can count Butler out in the Final Four after the teams they beat to get there. They force a certain pace and are just plain tough. Can't forget they were a preseason #11 team and they've won like 20+ games in a row.

I know others are, but I wasn't intending to count them out. I'm just saying I think that they are at best the 5th best team remaining. That doesn't mean they don't have a shot, they only need to win 2 more games. But Kentucky, WVU, Duke, and Baylor all appear to be better to me.

[Swaggs]

Yeesh... Getting really nervous.

[Swaggs]

Holy crap is the ball bouncing Kentucky's way off the glass!!!

[mauchow]

THAT was another travel.

[mauchow]

Oh, goodness you can't give away two points with a turnover like that...wow, breakaway all alone and loses it.

[Big Fo]

That last sequence was really sloppy.

[jbergey22]

Cmon Ebanks. You cant miss that chance.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't think that's a problem of this tournament, it's just college basketball these days. Major programs simply can't groom a top recruit for 2-4 years. You get these teams like Kentucky who just haven't played much with each other. I think the one-and-done rule has hurt the NCAA more than it has helped. While you missed out on seeing some guys like John Wall and Kevin Durant, you go to see major programs keeping their nucleus for a few years (even if they had much less raw talent).

So you're seeing a lot of teams that just focus on defense. It's a sloppy, gritty game, but it works in this era.

Basically what I'm saying is that offense has gotten worse at this level.

Yeah I don't disagree at all. It just seems like a huge decline from just last year. It seemed like there were a lot of teams last season who were able to efficiently run their offense in the NCAA tournament even against scrappy opponents, UNC, Louisville, Michigan State, Oklahoma for a few rounds, etc. This year it feels like everyone has been put off their game by the weakest of competition.

[mauchow]

Kentucky needs to stop shooting threes.

[Abe Sargent]

Now its 15

[whomario]

That´s propably it now.
How about Mazzula doubling his season high in such an important game with 16 points ? Why isn´t he in right now puzzles me a bit.

Kentucky showing what will allways be an obstacle for you team like that, executing under pressure.

0-19 from 3 and 11-23 from the line, yikes ...

[rowech]

Originally Posted by whomario

That´s propably it now.
How about Mazzula doubling his season high in such an important game with 16 points ? Why isn´t he in right now puzzles me a bit.

Kentucky showing what will allways be an obstacle for you team like that, executing under pressure.

0-19 from 3 and 11-23 from the line, yikes ...

4 fouls

[Swaggs]

Well, if it becomes a free throw shooting contest, I like our chances over theirs. Still nervous b/c it seems like Wall and Cousins are having their way, but the other guys keep chucking up threes. Hopefully, they keep shooting the threes.