POTUS 2024 - Harris vs Trump - General Election Discussion

[Lathum]

Comical how many voices on the right screaming about Biden stepping down and the dems subverting democracy while literally wanting a king and dictator.

[Racer]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

And the candidate who actually cares about the country makes the best choice for the country.

Thank you Joe.

I agree. Well said.

Originally Posted by Danny

Its wrong but I think she needs a white male as her VP

I feel like this probably doesn't matter. Anyone who was not going to vote for her because she's a women or a minority isn't going going to change their mind because her VP is a white male. If anything, having someone like Gretchen Whitmer might garner additional votes.

Overall, I'm guessing her VP choice will have very little impact.

Originally Posted by Dutch

The Republican convention proved the Republicans are all in for everyone. Unity is the key. White, Black, Hispanic, Asian, men and women are all in this together. No lawfare, no desperate assassinations, just love for America and all Americans. I look forward to the next leader of the Democrats to join in with that message so we can all make America great again.

So you're telling me that Trump and the Republicans are going to do a 180 from how they have acted the last several years? Trump is incredibly divisive. There is no way they change their stripes.

[Brian Swartz]

I'll say it: I was wrong. Again.

What a traveshamockery this is.

Originally Posted by Lathum

Comical how many voices on the right screaming about Biden stepping down and the dems subverting democracy while literally wanting a king and dictator.

Agreed.

Also comical: Democrats saying they want to beat Trump to save democracy while subverting it at the same time. Suffice to say they've pushed me closer to voting third party for the forseeable future. Not in this election unless they manage to pick worse for Biden's replacement than I expect, but they've shown what they believe in here.

[GrantDawg]

Lol...

Analysis | As the winner of the American Samoa primary, Dean Phillips must be the Democrats’ choice to succeed Biden.

— New York Times Pitchbot (@DougJBalloon) July 21, 2024

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

I'll say it: I was wrong. Again.

What a traveshamockery this is.



Agreed.

Also comical: Democrats saying they want to beat Trump to save democracy while subverting it at the same time. Suffice to say they've pushed me closer to voting third party for the forseeable future. Not in this election unless they manage to pick worse for Biden's replacement than I expect, but they've shown what they believe in here.

I think thats fair. I am more liberal but prior to Trump I was registered independent and had issues with both parties. I just think Trump changed the game and until the republican party is no longer the party of trump its a clear issue of lesser of two evils.

[CrimsonFox]

Now let's demand thomas altogether gorusch and Brett and McConnell to all resign

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

I'll say it: I was wrong. Again.

What a traveshamockery this is.



Agreed.

Also comical: Democrats saying they want to beat Trump to save democracy while subverting it at the same time. Suffice to say they've pushed me closer to voting third party for the forseeable future. Not in this election unless they manage to pick worse for Biden's replacement than I expect, but they've shown what they believe in here.

When people talk about democracy, they're talking about the country. The Democratic Party is a political party, not a country. I've never seen a "third party" hold a public or semi-public election like Democrats and Republicans do. But the only reason those two do is tradition, but I don't think a primary is any kind of cornerstone of democracy, I mean, as long as we have multiple parties.

[bob]

I don’t understand the appeal of Harris. Her 2020 campaign was a mess, she has done basically nothing as VP, and most of her soundbites over the last few years sound like a kindergarten teacher talking to kids.

I’m probably missing something.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Also comical: Democrats saying they want to beat Trump to save democracy while subverting it at the same time. Suffice to say they've pushed me closer to voting third party for the forseeable future. Not in this election unless they manage to pick worse for Biden's replacement than I expect, but they've shown what they believe in here.

I don't know why this would push you over the edge. If you're complaining about the primary process not being democratic, that's a legit complaint. It isn't and probably never will be. Democrats aren't big on democracy either.

But what's happening now isn't "subverting democracy". You vote for delegates and they basically pick the nominee. If Joe Biden asks his delegates to select Kamala, how is that bad? People voted for those delegates.

[HerRealName]

This is the reason we have a VP. I don't think Harris is anyone's first choice but I think she is a solid candidate and would be a better President.

I don't get the democracy concerns. Abraham Lincoln was famously the result of a contested convention.

[GrantDawg]

No.

News: some Democratic donors and officials are reaching out to Sen. Joe Manchin to consider standing for the presidential nomination, per two people familiar with the discussions

— Robert Costa (@costareports) July 21, 2024

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

People ignored Joe's 1988 and 2008 failed Presidential campaigns in 2020. It is almost as if time and experience changes things.

They didn't ignore it. He just failed upwards. He was a shitty politician most of his life who lucked into the VP role because Dems needed a sort of racist guy to quell anxiety with liberals and moderates over Obama being black. He won in 2020 because Hillary was such a colossal failure in 2016.

Originally Posted by bob

I don’t understand the appeal of Harris. Her 2020 campaign was a mess, she has done basically nothing as VP, and most of her soundbites over the last few years sound like a kindergarten teacher talking to kids.

I’m probably missing something.

The appeal is she can form a full sentence and speak publicly. That sounds simple but it's something Biden cannot do right now. I don't think she's a good politician or a strong candidate, but she's running against a really unpopular man and that's enough to be competitive. All they need her to do is talk about abortion every chance she gets and come across normal.

And agree that she needs to get off the benzos if she's going to be taken seriously and not sound like she's talking to kids. She seemed much more livelier in recent days so maybe they've corrected that already.


I think the other appeal with her (or anyone replacing Biden) is it injects some life into a party that was dead. Biden was a lame duck. Kamala has a chance to bring back minority and young voters that Biden has chased away. Probably their best chance at beating Trump.

[HerRealName]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

No.

News: some Democratic donors and officials are reaching out to Sen. Joe Manchin to consider standing for the presidential nomination, per two people familiar with the discussions

— Robert Costa (@costareports) July 21, 2024

That Aaron Sorkin is full of terrible script ideas.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Don't give up the AZ senate seat, but otherwise that's a good list.

Yeah, that Senate seat is way too valuable to give up for a VP slot. If he chooses to run for President (he would be an extremely strong candidate) one day, it's another story.

Shapiro would be the best VP choice if he wants on the ballot. Absolutely dominated Pennsylvania and is a really good politician. I feel like the top candidates are going to sit it out though which is why I mentioned Beshear being a good option because I don't think Shapiro wants the slot.

One of the issues with Cooper as VP is NC has weird rules where if the Governor leaves the state, the Lt Gov takes over and the Lt Gov is fucking insane.

[RainMaker]

Trump melting down on Truth Social over this tells you how scared he is now. He's already essentially backed out of the debate in September now that he realizes he is going to have to go up against someone who doesn't have dementia.

If you're not sure if this was a good move or not, look at how mad MAGA is that Biden is stepping aside.

[Lathum]

I was at my ultra MAGA in laws today when the news broke.


My MIL flat out said she wanted Trump to run against Biden. They know

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Lathum

It's really amazing how the GOP is normalizing asking people for their papers...

That’s a shame, but in this case, JPhillips normalized it for her daughter, not anyone else.

[GrantDawg]

The Harris campaign has raised $27.5 million dollars in the last 5 hours. This is not counting mega-donors who have also added some big donations.

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[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Dutch

That’s a shame, but in this case, JPhillips normalized it for her daughter, not anyone else.

With all due respect. You're an asshole if you think it is OK for any government official to ask anyone for documentation based off how they look. It is literally a violation of their rights. Are you actually so stupid as to think this half brained deportation would work?

He didn't normalize anything, just the opposite. He is rightfully worried.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Dutch

That’s a shame, but in this case, JPhillips normalized it for her daughter, not anyone else.

So how do you think a round up of millions is going to work?

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by HerRealName

This is the reason we have a VP. I don't think Harris is anyone's first choice but I think she is a solid candidate and would be a better President.

I don't get the democracy concerns. Abraham Lincoln was famously the result of a contested convention.

In a perfect world, Biden stays healthy and we, as voters, got to vote for or against his polices. But this had to be done, despite what the press secretary and the major news networks have been saying for years, Biden is not alright. Harris is the next best choice because she was closest to his decisions and can take responsibility for the last 3.75 years by proxy. And of course, she isn’t dealing with a medical emergency that hampers her ability to state the administrations case for why they want open borders, very questionable foreign policies, and crippling inflation.

[Racer]

Originally Posted by Lathum

With all due respect. You're an asshole if you think it is OK for any government official to ask anyone for documentation based off how they look. It is literally a violation of their rights. Are you actually so stupid as to think this half brained deportation would work?

He didn't normalize anything, just the opposite. He is rightfully worried.

+1

Edit: (Agree with Lathum)

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Dutch

That’s a shame, but in this case, JPhillips normalized it for her daughter, not anyone else.

How did he normalize that?

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

So how do you think a round of of millions is going to work?

Yeah, that has been the plan all along, no doubt. The Democrats opened the door to tens of millions of illegal migrants and then push the responsibility of cleaning up the mess on the Republicans. Pretty shitty plan if you ask most people. And everyone knows if the Democrats win again, they won’t clean it up but instead invite tens of millions more to arrive.

How do you suppose we support that? Are the millions that have come illegally already even sustainable? Would doubling that number help somehow? How do we support Americans who work for federal minimum wage if we have a work force under the table making $5 less an hour? How do we help them if we don’t know they exist? What if they need medical attention but are too afraid to go a hospital?

As for mass deportations that are promised, we’ve never had to do it before until Biden and Harris forced us all to reconcile this insanity. Like the Democrats, I have no idea how it will be done, but it needs to be done.

[JPhillips]

There's plenty we could do, work permits, a path to citizenship, financial incentives, etc., but the GOP is focused on an entirely unworkable plan in large part because the cruelty is the fun part.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

How did he normalize that?

He should have told her she’s an American and therefore she has nothing to worry about instead of telling her that she needs to carry her passport everywhere she goes.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

There's plenty we could do, work permits, a path to citizenship, financial incentives, etc., but the GOP is focused on an entirely unworkable plan in large part because the cruelty is the fun part.

I’m sorry you believe that, but it’s not the truth. The truth is that America has the most generous immigration quotas in the world and Republicans support those quotas and legal immigrants 100%.

[HerRealName]

Originally Posted by Dutch

In a perfect world, Biden stays healthy and we, as voters, got to vote for or against his polices. But this had to be done, despite what the press secretary and the major news networks have been saying for years, Biden is not alright. Harris is the next best choice because she was closest to his decisions and can take responsibility for the last 3.75 years by proxy. And of course, she isn’t dealing with a medical emergency that hampers her ability to state the administrations case for why they want open borders, very questionable foreign policies, and crippling inflation.

Do you think Trump is "alright"?

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by Dutch

The Democrats opened the door to tens of millions of illegal migrants and then push the responsibility of cleaning up the mess on the Republicans. Pretty shitty plan if you ask most people. And everyone knows if the Democrats win again, they won’t clean it up but instead invite tens of millions more to arrive.

Just out of curiosity, how many tens of millions of illegal migrants do you think are in the United States?

[GrantDawg]

Another bonus: We can stop hearing about Hunter Biden as if anybody cared.

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[CrimsonFox]

Bets that the dnc will be total chaos?

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Another bonus: We can stop hearing about Hunter Biden as if anybody cared.

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Joe needs to just pardon him.

[GrantDawg]

Many have already endorsed Harris, but I think it would be good if there is someone to challenge her. At least one or two more besides Manchin. Then schedule a debate, maybe two in the next week or two.

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[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Many have already endorsed Harris, but I think it would be good if there is someone to challenge her. At least one or two more besides Manchin. Then schedule a debate, maybe two in the next week or two.

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Do they have the time to arrange all that? I think there are ballot deadlines that start next month right?

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I’m sorry you believe that, but it’s not the truth. The truth is that America has the most generous immigration quotas in the world and Republicans support those quotas and legal immigrants 100%.

I believe you think that, but plenty of elected GOPers ad pundits have called for great reductions in legal immigration.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Many have already endorsed Harris, but I think it would be good if there is someone to challenge her. At least one or two more besides Manchin. Then schedule a debate, maybe two in the next week or two.

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It is really 11th hour, but I think 1 or 2 more could be culled. My two picks would be Governors Josh Shapiro and Andy Beshear. I don't think Harris improves the odds of winning the White House at all, in fact may actually hurt it.

Plus, I would much rather have options that include politicians who are popular in swing/red states because it shows they govern for all people.

[GrantDawg]

"Do they have the time to arrange all that? I think there are ballot deadlines that start next month right?"

No state has a ballot deadline before the convention in September. The only one that did, Ohio, changed the law to be after the convention. Technically, no one is the nominee until they are officially selected during the convention.

Edit: August, not September

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Yeah, that has been the plan all along, no doubt. The Democrats opened the door to tens of millions of illegal migrants and then push the responsibility of cleaning up the mess on the Republicans. Pretty shitty plan if you ask most people. And everyone knows if the Democrats win again, they won’t clean it up but instead invite tens of millions more to arrive.

How do you suppose we support that? Are the millions that have come illegally already even sustainable? Would doubling that number help somehow? How do we support Americans who work for federal minimum wage if we have a work force under the table making $5 less an hour? How do we help them if we don’t know they exist? What if they need medical attention but are too afraid to go a hospital?

As for mass deportations that are promised, we’ve never had to do it before until Biden and Harris forced us all to reconcile this insanity. Like the Democrats, I have no idea how it will be done, but it needs to be done.

There's 10-12 million illegals in the country right now. Not tens of millions pouring in. Stop watching Fox News.

Clinton had more deportations than any President in history. You can take any 4 years of Obama's administration and he deported more than Trump's 4 years. Biden is on pace to pass Trump on deportations as well. Obama and Biden have also prioritized focused and selective deportations while Trump was deporting whoever and wherever.

The Biden administration also reached a deal with Mexico to take back illegal immigrants administratively returned from Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua, and Venezuela which has been a sticking point on some deportations because it's difficult to get them back to their home country. Because of that the Biden admin has processed more administrative returns than any President since Bush.

Each administration has handled deportation and the border differently. Trump was largely ineffective at deporting anyone and created a massive administrative clusterfuck at the border that, at best, bordered on cruel and inhumane. There's absolutely no proof than the last 3 democratic presidencies went easy on illegal immigrants. Different approaches, to be sure, but no data supports your claims. Republicans were the ones, remember, that passed on a border bill that they wanted because Trump wanted to run on border policy.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Dutch

He should have told her she’s an American and therefore she has nothing to worry about instead of telling her that she needs to carry her passport everywhere she goes.

They literally passed a law in Texas that allows police to ask you for proof of citizenship and are obligated to arrest you if you don't provide it.

I'm sure she can show up to court and prove it after spending a night or two in jail, but that seems like a terrible experience.

[RainMaker]

Also both parties have nearly identical stances on immigration. Biden literally put forth Trump's immigration bill this year which the GOP shelved. Democrats have been deporting more than Republicans over the past few decades as well.

Originally Posted by Dutch

As for mass deportations that are promised, we’ve never had to do it before until Biden and Harris forced us all to reconcile this insanity. Like the Democrats, I have no idea how it will be done, but it needs to be done.

Yeah, I'm sure Republicans are going to totally do the mass deportations they've been talking about this time. The mass deportations they seemingly forget about the minute they take office. They'll definitely increase labor costs for their corporate donors who's dicks they've been relentlessly sucking for decades. It's totally going to happen this time. Right after they build that beautiful wall.

[GrantDawg]

"It is really 11th hour, but I think 1 or 2 more could be culled. My two picks would be Governors Josh Shapiro and Andy Beshear. I don't think Harris improves the odds of winning the White House at all, in fact may actually hurt it."

Shapiro has already endorsed Harris, so he is not running against her. He would be a great pick for VP, with the only downsides being he has only been governor for a year, and he is another prosecutor.

Beshear likely won't either, but it is conspicuous that he hasn't endorsed her yet, and he is going to be on "Morning Joe" to "talk about the path forward."

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[dubb93]

Honestly wouldn’t waste any effort persuading Dutch at this point. He has shown what he is. I deal with them every day living in a red state. I call them cult members. They are completely unpersuadable. For every fact you present they counter with twice as much complete horseshit and pass it off as fact. They killed a party that at one time I felt comfortable voting for.

[RainMaker]

I'm certain all these tech billionaires are donating to Trump because they're excited to see him deport their programmers and drastically increase the cost of labor for them. They just love paying more for programmers.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Dutch

He should have told her she’s an American and therefore she has nothing to worry about instead of telling her that she needs to carry her passport everywhere she goes.

This is such a shitty thing to say especially after you admitted you have no idea how a mass deportation program would work.

How will they do mass deportations without mass detentions? How will they know who to detain? How will those detained prove their citizenship, and again, for most people a driver's license doesn't do it? When you have a child who is a person of color, yes, you need to plan on how they can prove their citizenship if Trump is elected and he carries out his promises.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Pete not named...

CNN’s @jamiegangel says sources close to the Vice-President say these are some of the names being discussed as her running mate:

Arizona Senator Mark Kelly
Kentucky Governor Andy Beshear
North Carolina Governor Roy Cooper
Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro

— Yashar Ali �� (@yashar) July 21, 2024

pretty sneaky sis

[stevew]

I don’t like them at all, but Manchin balances the ticket as VP

[Swaggs]

Manchin is just as old as Trump.

Shapiro should be the first call. If he does what’s best/safest for him, he will wait until 2028. If he does what’s best for the Democratic Party (and, in my opinion the country), he will join the ticket. PA governor will be replaced by democratic Lt. Governor. Same with Whitmer in Michigan. Kelly and Cooper can’t afford to give up their seats.

[stevew]

The PA lieutenant Governor is 33 years old. If Austin Davis is not ready to be governor, we are going to get a very terrible governor in 2026. Which I guess that assumes that Shapiro is vice president.

[stevew]

Google wasn’t really working for me, but I’m pretty sure Davis would be the youngest US governor in at least a century

[CrimsonFox]

So like now is the time when all of the independents and other parties step up and put forward good candidates, right? Maybe we'll turn into England. Labor party, green party, capitalist party, uh....what else...