OT: A Song of Ice and Fire Series (spoilers inside)

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

The Lyanna Scene (tm) would be absolutely huge.

And Martin would probably stab the showrunners if they dared put that in before he got to write it.

Not if they wrote it as GRRM has written it in the books. Don't show any child, just Lyanna making Ned promise as she lies bleeding. Though where to put that flashback is the difficult part... if Jojen had survived the showrunners need for a Reed child to die...

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

What if they take some liberties and "combine" Maggy the Frog with Jenny of Oldstones?

That'd enable them to easily have one "prophesy character" who could reveal all of that stuff.

Well, if they are going to do the Jenny of Oldstones prophecy, they better have Aegon (whatever you think of him, real or fake), so to have some ambiguity about who the prophecy is referring to.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Well, if they are going to do the Jenny of Oldstones prophecy, they better have Aegon (whatever you think of him, real or fake), so to have some ambiguity about who the prophecy is referring to.

#TeamAEGON

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

So Howland Reed is fine with his kids gone, because he knows their mission (or part of it). You wonder why Ramsey doesn't go after Howland Reed to see what he knows.

It's been awhile since I read the Moat Cailin parts, but weren't Bolton's men extremely wary and getting picked off by the marsh people too as they besieged the trapped Iron Islanders? Between that and the floating islands thing which means there's no specific place to attack and hold, I don't think Howland Reed will be found unless he wants to be found.

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

The Lyanna Scene (tm) would be absolutely huge.

And Martin would probably stab the showrunners if they dared put that in before he got to write it.

This. I suspect we'll get Cersei with Maggie, and maybe some of Cersei et al just after Tyrion's birth, but no way that Lyanna scene gets put in.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

It's been awhile since I read the Moat Cailin parts, but weren't Bolton's men extremely wary and getting picked off by the marsh people too as they besieged the trapped Iron Islanders? Between that and the floating islands thing which means there's no specific place to attack and hold, I don't think Howland Reed will be found unless he wants to be found.This. I suspect we'll get Cersei with Maggie, and maybe some of Cersei et al just after Tyrion's birth, but no way that Lyanna scene gets put in.

Yes, Roose dressed as a servent in case they tried to attack. And their castle moves. And there are sinkholes and lizard lions in the swamp, so this would be a bit of a nightmare, even for someone as prone to rashness as Ramsey.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

That stuff makes the story. The showrunners have omitted so much essential stuff that shows the motivations or backstories.

When Jon is revealed to be the son of Rheagar and Lyanna, its better if the blocks are set in place, rather than an out of the blue moment. The later just looks like they just made it up while the former indicates that it had been part of the plan since the beginning.

But it'll take at least a half an episode. For it to have weight, you'd have to adequately explain the challenge Ned & Reed had. To make that work, you'd have to adequately show how much of a badass the Sword of the Morning was. You'd also have to give people a real reason to care for Lyanna, needing more backstory.

I think I just talked myself into needing a whole episode.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

It's been awhile since I read the Moat Cailin parts, but weren't Bolton's men extremely wary and getting picked off by the marsh people too as they besieged the trapped Iron Islanders? Between that and the floating islands thing which means there's no specific place to attack and hold, I don't think Howland Reed will be found unless he wants to be found.

While this could be true. It is quite evident that Moat Cailin has been taken... twice. Once by the Iron Born and once by Ramsey Snow, using Theon (in such a fucked up way too... Reek, you are going to be playing the part of Theon...)

Speaking of, I've recently re-read where Theon takes Winterfell, and having Reek mentioned in those chapters is super fun, knowing that its the Bastard of Bolton, and the guy they killed was the actual Reek.

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

But it'll take at least a half an episode. For it to have weight, you'd have to adequately explain the challenge Ned & Reed had. To make that work, you'd have to adequately show how much of a badass the Sword of the Morning was. You'd also have to give people a real reason to care for Lyanna, needing more backstory.

I think I just talked myself into needing a whole episode.

That episode would be super mega awesome! I would love it with ever fiber of my being!

[ISiddiqui]

House of the Undying!!! Rereading this, there is SO MUCH to unpack, and so much of it makes tons more sense after knowing what happens in the next 3 books. And so much is still conjecture.

The House of the Undying has, really, 3 parts. The first part is Dany walking through the super long ass corridor and seeing scenes play out in the doors on her left. The second part is when Dany is being tempted by visions of Pyat Pree or fake-Undying to NOT take the first door on the right as instructed. The third part is when she reaches the actual chamber of the Undying and prophecies and visions come fast and thick.

I think in this post I want to focus on the first part (doing the first and third part in one post would make it uberlong... though those type of posts do exist in forums such as "A Forum of Ice and Fire"). The first part is mostly answered though... except for the last vision in that hallway...

So, here are the visions from the first part of the House of the Undying:

a beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor while four little men crawled over her. They had rattish pointed faces and tiny pink hands, like the servitor who had brought her the glass of shade. One was pumping between her thighs. Another savaged her breasts, worrying at the nipples with his wet red mouth, tearing and chewing.

It has been 'decided' that this vision is about the 4 Kings ravishing Westeros (the naked woman). Joffery, Stannis, Robb, and Balon are destroying the land in their war.

Farther on she came upon a feast of corpses. Savagely slaughtered, the feasters lay strewn across overturned chairs and hacked trestle tables, a sprawl in pools of congealing blood. Some had lost limbs, even heads. Severed hands clutched bloody cups, wooden spoons, roast fowl, heels of bread. In a throne above them sat a dead man with the head of a wolf. He wore an iron crown and held a leg of lamb in one hand as a king might hold a scepter, and his eyes followed Dany with mute appeal.

Obviously Red Wedding (which happens in the next book - it is, of course, something none of us would have even begin to guess at when we first read ACOK).

She remembered those great wooden beams and the carved animal faces that adorned them. And there outside the window, a lemon tree! The sight of it made her heart ache with longing. It is the house with the red door, the house in Braavos. No sooner had she thought it than old Ser Willem came into the room, leaning heavily on his stick. “Little princess, there you are,” he said in his gruff kind voice. “Come,” he said, “come to me, my lady, you’re home now, you’re safe now.”

It seems like a vision of the past. Before Pentos, they were likely at Braavos (as Viserys looked for help up and down the Free Cities)

Finally a great pair of bronze doors appeared to her left, grander than the rest. They swung open as she neared, and she had to stop and look. Beyond loomed a cavernous stone hall, the largest she had ever seen. The skulls of dead dragons looked down from its walls. Upon a towering barbed throne sat an old man in rich robes, an old man with dark eyes and long silver-grey hair. “Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat,” he said to a man below him. “Let him be the king of ashes.”

This appears to be Mad King Aerys II burning someone... maybe even Rickon Stark (Ned's dad) while Brandon Stark (Ned's brother) watches and strangles himself.

Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?”
“Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.
“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads.” He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.

And this is the fun one. The one that elicits all the questions. At the time, we have no Aegon, real or otherwise (but, as DT says #TeamAEGON). However, this appears to be Rhaegar (who has dark indigo eyes and silver hair) and Elia with Aegon. This is the second time in the books that the "Song of Ice and Fire" is mentioned. And then his eyes meet Dany and says there must be one more because the dragon has three heads.

I may be proven false, but I think it indicates that maybe Young Griff actually is Aegon due to the prophecy. We don't find the words "Ice and Fire" too often in the books and here it is. And GRRM named the series the Song of Ice and Fire... now yes, we have the Others (Ice) and the Dragons (Fire) and we have the Starks (Ice) and Targaryens (Fire) in Jon Snow, but here it is outwardly stated. And Dany is referenced as one more (or he may be telling Dany there needs to be one more after Dany and Aegon).

[DaddyTorgo]

Nice summation man.

Aaah Ser Willem Dary. Brave & true till the end.

[Autumn]

I don't know if there's more than what you quoted, without looking, but the scene with Mad Aerys sounds to me like he's talking about using the wildfire to burn the city down before it is taken.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I don't know if there's more than what you quoted, without looking, but the scene with Mad Aerys sounds to me like he's talking about using the wildfire to burn the city down before it is taken.

Yeah - that's how I read it too. Both initially and now again.

[Autumn]

It is less of a prophecy if read this way, but perhaps Rhaegar believed he needed to have three children. The Targaryen line was dying with him, and if he believed the dragon needed to have three heads, he may have thought he needed a third child. However, Elia was not able to have more than two children, so perhaps this is the entire reason for his affair with Lyanna, to have his third child. His father had three children as well, and perhaps this is something to do with his understanding of the prince who is promised.

From his perspective, this would explain his thinking and his words, though it does not mean much to Dany or make much of a prophecy, unless she is meant to understand that she too must have three children, a problematic prophecy for her.

[Autumn]

I suppose thinking about it more, maybe it is a way of suggesting to Dany that there is a third child of Rhaegar's, which if she is to continue marrying within the bloodline, would be important for her to know.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I don't know if there's more than what you quoted, without looking, but the scene with Mad Aerys sounds to me like he's talking about using the wildfire to burn the city down before it is taken.

Oh yeah... that's probably a better way of reading it.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Autumn

From his perspective, this would explain his thinking and his words, though it does not mean much to Dany or make much of a prophecy, unless she is meant to understand that she too must have three children, a problematic prophecy for her.

I think in some ways it does mean something to Dany - that she can't take Westeros by herself. She needs three heads of the dragon in order to do it - like the first Aegon (the Conqueror).

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

That episode would be super mega awesome! I would love it with ever fiber of my being!

Careful what you wish for. Then they'll do an entire Dunk & Egg episode, then they'll start doing flashbacks of all sorts of stuff from the prequel short stories, and then even filming "flashbacks" of stuff that occurred in the first book or two, and then GRRM will realize the pressure's off him to complete the books, and he'll pump out tangential short stories and/or screenplays because he's wanted to be a screenwriter for ages, and then the books will never get finished and HBO will eventually cancel the series without a conclusion because everyone felt it jumped the shark and stopped watching.

And when that happens, it'll be all your fault.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Careful what you wish for. Then they'll do an entire Dunk & Egg episode, then they'll start doing flashbacks of all sorts of stuff from the prequel short stories, and then even filming "flashbacks" of stuff that occurred in the first book or two, and then GRRM will realize the pressure's off him to complete the books, and he'll pump out tangential short stories and/or screenplays because he's wanted to be a screenwriter for ages, and then the books will never get finished and HBO will eventually cancel the series without a conclusion because everyone felt it jumped the shark and stopped watching.

And when that happens, it'll be all your fault.

Of course the books will get finished eventually... GRRM is not immune to the massive wads of cash that results from them. And if he dies, some other writer will gather his notes and finish it up... though I'm convinced GRRM will live to like 110.

I'll enjoy every second of it. And will drink your tears like Cartman with Scott Tennerman.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I don't know if there's more than what you quoted, without looking, but the scene with Mad Aerys sounds to me like he's talking about using the wildfire to burn the city down before it is taken.

That quote is the same one that Jaime relates to Brienne when talking about Aerys' plan to burn the city down, yep.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

While this could be true. It is quite evident that Moat Cailin has been taken... twice. Once by the Iron Born and once by Ramsey Snow, using Theon (in such a fucked up way too... Reek, you are going to be playing the part of Theon...)

But the swamp people, or whatever we're calling Reed's people, don't seem to have any inclination to hold Moat Cailin... They'll harry and pick off anyone who does so other than the Starks, but Moat Cailin is only important for armies who want to cross it (because the swamp to each side of it is so impenetrable), not a seat of power.

[ISiddiqui]

True... but Roose Bolton was able to get back up to Winterfell after Ramsey took Moat Cailin... so not sure if Reed's crannogmen are still harassing.

[NobodyHere]

So on season 5 of the show we will be getting Cersei's walk of shame. I guess they're gonna try to cram two books into one season?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

So on season 5 of the show we will be getting Cersei's walk of shame. I guess they're gonna try to cram two books into one season?

I don't think so...I think they'll mix and match based on the characters.

[BishopMVP]

It'll be interesting to see if they focus the whole season on a couple story arcs, then focus S5 on the others, or if itsore episode by episode and some characters only show up every 3rd/4th episode, but then have a lot of time then, similar to EP 9 in each of the last 2 seasons.

[ISiddiqui]

So... uh... I'll get back to the second part of the House of the Undying, but there is this...

Game Of Thrones set video hints at a significant departure from the books · Newswire · The A.V. Club

In the video, Jaime is seen sporting one of the flowing, airy garments Oberyn was fond of wearing last season. He sits down with Ellaria Sand, Oberyn’s bereaved paramour, and an actor who’s presumably playing Prince Doran Martell, the ruler of Dorne. Doran Martell is known for, among other things, almost never leaving Dorne due to an advanced case of gout, and has been called a “major new player” in the coming season. As of now, Jaime has not come into contact with him in the books, nor has he gone to Dorne.

Uh... in the comments there is speculation that Jamie takes the roll of Myrcella's protector, which was Arys Oakheart's role in the books. However, I'm doubting Jamie is going to be supporting Myrcella's role over Tommen's... So... no Dornish plot to make Myrcella Queen? There isn't an Arianne cast so far.

Damn, the future of the show looks more and more like its going to suck.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

So... uh... I'll get back to the second part of the House of the Undying, but there is this...

Game Of Thrones set video hints at a significant departure from the books · Newswire · The A.V. Club



Uh... in the comments there is speculation that Jamie takes the roll of Myrcella's protector, which was Arys Oakheart's role in the books. However, I'm doubting Jamie is going to be supporting Myrcella's role over Tommen's... So... no Dornish plot to make Myrcella Queen? There isn't an Arianne cast so far.

Damn, the future of the show looks more and more like its going to suck.

As a full Dorne-lover I agree that I'm upset it seems like it may be getting a short shrift, but at the same time, there's a ton of characters already, so I can understand it from a TV point-of-view.

Doesn't make me any happier about it though, yeah.

[ISiddiqui]

As a co-worker told me, the finale of Season 4 was a massive disappointment as it appeared to be a narrative dump (in addition they fucked up by not putting Stannis at the Wall at the end of Ep9 instead of jamming it in with everything in ep10).

My confidence in the show is extremely low at this point (as it seems the showrunners had some success in consolidating some story lines and now feel they can write the story better than GRRM can).

Not that I'm saying Arys Oakheart was a super amazing character, but if you are going to include Dorne, not having the "Making Myrcella Queen" plot really leaves you with a bunch of nothing from AFFC and the showrunners have to make up a plot of their own. As stated by a blog, after Arianne was left out, the show has become a fan-fic.

You have Doran, Areo Hotah, Trystanne, 3 Sand Snakes (at least). Would it kill them to put in Arianne? Who is arguably the most compelling (in addition to being a strong female character who likes having sex) and has a pretty cool plotline, which also tells you something about Dorne's POV about what's going on in King's Landing?

I mean, if you take out the stuff with Aegon and Jon Connington, its just something entirely different at that point.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

As a co-worker told me, the finale of Season 4 was a massive disappointment as it appeared to be a narrative dump (in addition they fucked up by not putting Stannis at the Wall at the end of Ep9 instead of jamming it in with everything in ep10).

My confidence in the show is extremely low at this point (as it seems the showrunners had some success in consolidating some story lines and now feel they can write the story better than GRRM can).

Not that I'm saying Arys Oakheart was a super amazing character, but if you are going to include Dorne, not having the "Making Myrcella Queen" plot really leaves you with a bunch of nothing from AFFC and the showrunners have to make up a plot of their own. As stated by a blog, after Arianne was left out, the show has become a fan-fic.

You have Doran, Areo Hotah, Trystanne, 3 Sand Snakes (at least). Would it kill them to put in Arianne? Who is arguably the most compelling (in addition to being a strong female character who likes having sex) and has a pretty cool plotline, which also tells you something about Dorne's POV about what's going on in King's Landing?

I mean, if you take out the stuff with Aegon and Jon Connington, its just something entirely different at that point.

I agree with you, but I'm not sure I agree with your second paragraph wholeheartedly.

[ISiddiqui]

Of course I don't feel as if everyone will agree with the loss of confidence, but it's been growing in me for a while now. These changes are just added straws, so to speak. This is a show that I'm no longer trying to find a friend who has HBO that will let me watch the show at his house - I can wait for the Blu-rays.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Of course I don't feel as if everyone will agree with the loss of confidence, but it's been growing in me for a while now. These changes are just added straws, so to speak. This is a show that I'm no longer trying to find a friend who has HBO that will let me watch the show at his house - I can wait for the Blu-rays.

Appreciate the books for what they are and appreciate the show for what it is, that's my motto.

The show was NEVER going to be a perfect retelling of the books - just like PJ's LOTR wasn't a perfect retelling of Tolkien. I feel like you can either embrace that and enjoy them both for the individual things they are, or you can not enjoy one, and it's like...why would you actively discourage yourself from enjoying something when you like the underlying story so much?

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

My confidence in the show is extremely low at this point (as it seems the showrunners had some success in consolidating some story lines and now feel they can write the story better than GRRM can).

They probably can't write a better story, but they've already proven they can write a better edited version.

Not that I'm saying Arys Oakheart was a super amazing character, but if you are going to include Dorne, not having the "Making Myrcella Queen" plot really leaves you with a bunch of nothing from AFFC and the showrunners have to make up a plot of their own. As stated by a blog, after Arianne was left out, the show has become a fan-fic.

I actually like Oakheart as a character. In GRRM's universe it was somewhat refreshing to have a badass knight who also has a) unimpeachable integrity, b) isn't trying to get bound up in political intrigue and c) isn't a naive doofus, despite (a) (Hi Ned Stark!).

You have Doran, Areo Hotah, Trystanne, 3 Sand Snakes (at least). Would it kill them to put in Arianne? Who is arguably the most compelling (in addition to being a strong female character who likes having sex) and has a pretty cool plotline, which also tells you something about Dorne's POV about what's going on in King's Landing?

Well, if we go back to our understanding that the showrunners know the rest of GRRM's outline, and how it finishes, then it sort of indicates that that whole sub-plot comes to a whole lot of nothing.

It looks to me like a real-time retcon. Clearly Dorne & Jaime will be a big part of the season, and I expect there will be a ton of intrigue, and maybe part of that would be some sort of Lannister-Dorne alliance, where "Lannister" in this case is Jaime? I don't know, we're clearly speculating in the dark here.

I mean, if you take out the stuff with Aegon and Jon Connington, its just something entirely different at that point.

Wonder if we'll still see them, but as some sort of "late surprise" in an upcoming season.

[JAG]

Anyone read the World of Ice and Fire sample on GRRM's website?

WORLD OF ICE AND FIRE SAMPLE | George R.R. Martin

I wasn't thinking I'd get it before, but now I'm leaning towards buying it.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

It looks to me like a real-time retcon. Clearly Dorne & Jaime will be a big part of the season, and I expect there will be a ton of intrigue, and maybe part of that would be some sort of Lannister-Dorne alliance, where "Lannister" in this case is Jaime? I don't know, we're clearly speculating in the dark here.

They won't do a lannister-dorne alliance. Not after Oberyn's whole part last year.

I read that it was something like "Jamie undercover going to rescue Myrcella" basically.

[flere-imsaho]

Sorry, I meant a Jaime-Doran alliance.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Sorry, I meant a Jaime-Doran alliance.

I still don't see that happening. That to me would like...fundamentally "break" the show.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Wonder if we'll still see them, but as some sort of "late surprise" in an upcoming season.

Keep in mind, it's also entirely possible that Aegon is yet another red herring. It's not like Martin doesn't have a track record of devoting large numbers of chapters to characters who appear & die without doing much of anything to advance the plot.

If that's the case, there'd be zero reason for the show to bother.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

Keep in mind, it's also entirely possible that Aegon is yet another red herring. It's not like Martin doesn't have a track record of devoting large numbers of chapters to characters who appear & die without doing much of anything to advance the plot.

If that's the case, there'd be zero reason for the show to bother.

AEGON IS NOT A RED HERRING!!!

STOP BRINGING YOUR ASOIAF DRAFT STRATEGY OF TALKING DOWN THE TRUE HEIR TO THE THRONE IN HERE!!!

[Coffee Warlord]

Ha!

On a serious note, I don't *want* Aegon to be a red herring. The more I think about it, and the more I think about what Martin's been doing lately, the more I'm fairly certain he is a red herring. I think both he and Quentyn existed solely to move the remaining players towards each other (namely, moving Tyrion and Varys to the Targaryen camp, and getting Dany out of Mereen).

Which is also why I think the whole Euron/Victarion thing will end up with one or both of them biting it as well. I think his solution to the infamous Mereeneese knot was mainly, "throw as many characters east as possible to give Dany what she needs to get on with it."

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

Ha!

On a serious note, I don't *want* Aegon to be a red herring. The more I think about it, and the more I think about what Martin's been doing lately, the more I'm fairly certain he is a red herring. I think both he and Quentyn existed solely to move the remaining players towards each other (namely, moving Tyrion and Varys to the Targaryen camp, and getting Dany out of Mereen).

Which is also why I think the whole Euron/Victarion thing will end up with one or both of them biting it as well. I think his solution to the infamous Mereeneese knot was mainly, "throw as many characters east as possible to give Dany what she needs to get on with it."

If he's a red-herring then who's your third Targ-blooded dragon rider?

Couldn't he just as easily be real and exist for that purpose and for the purpose of advancing the situation in Westeros & drawing Dany back to Westeros?

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

If he's a red-herring then who's your third Targ-blooded dragon rider?

Tyrion obviously! I'd actually say that prophecy could easily be a little less literal than that, and resolve itself in a different way, but I dunno.

Couldn't he just as easily be real and exist for that purpose and for the purpose of advancing the situation in Westeros & drawing Dany back to Westeros?[/quote]

Sure. But I still find it awfully odd that one would introduce such an integral character out of the blue like that, particularly under such deus ex machina circumstances. "Hey, guess what, I'm not dead!"

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

I still don't see that happening. That to me would like...fundamentally "break" the show.

How?

Given what we know of plot points for this season (Cersei's walk of shame, for instance), it's likely that Jaime will be in Dorne when the extent of her infidelity becomes known. Heck, it could even happen before he leaves.

The show's already been driving a clear wedge between the two, anyway.

If we assume Doran's being set up to be a badass political operator, then I can certainly see how once he gets Jaime in his presence, he's able to convince Jaime that he will need to go back and assert control, for the good of the kingdom, and that Dorne will help with that as necessary. Oh, and leave Myrcella in Dorne so she's safe, especially from Cersei.

It would seriously vary from the narrative in the books, but then just having Jaime in Dorne does that anyway. The end goal is for someone to get things back on an even keel in King's Landing. So maybe, then, at the end of the season it's not Kevan Lannister who gets killed, but a newly-arrived (and having settled things down) Jaime?

[Coffee Warlord]

Well. Check this image out for the upcoming season. They are not fucking around.

Spoiler

[flere-imsaho]

OK, then. We're definitely out of the books now.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

How?

There's that whole "your family was (at best) complicit in the rape & murder of my sister and the killing of my niece & nephew" thing...

[flounder]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

There's that whole "your family was (at best) complicit in the rape & murder of my sister and the killing of my niece & nephew" thing...

What better way to destroy your enemies than to divide them against each other, though? That's definitely a Doran thing to do.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by flounder

What better way to destroy your enemies than to divide them against each other, though? That's definitely a Doran thing to do.

Fair enough...but I just don't see it happening unless Doran knows he can kill Jamie at the end (such as Jamie being poisoned or something).

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

My confidence in the show is extremely low at this point (as it seems the showrunners had some success in consolidating some story lines and now feel they can write the story better than GRRM can).

I totally disagree. The show is fucking amazing. It has been and continues to be.

In my wildest dreams I never thought they would be able to pull off what they've pulled off on screen. The quality across the board - acting, writing, effects, set design, etc. - has far exceeded any kind of realistic expectations.

A lot of the stuff that they've done improved on the books. Not everything, no, but quite a bit. There had to be a lot of cuts and consolidation and shifting of people and events due to massive size of the books and a lot of the narrative choices GRRM made that would work in a book series, but never in a TV show.

I pretty much view the two separate. There is nothing that the show will do that, in any way, ruin the books for me. So long as the show stays true to the books in tone, theme and character, I'm all right with the changes, even some of the bigger ones. So far, I think they've done an amazing job adhering to the tone, theme and characters while making the necessary adaptations.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

OK, then. We're definitely out of the books now.

Good. Because the Tyrion chapters in "Dance" largely sucked. Everything with Penny was torture.

There is simply too much meandering in Books 4 and 5. The pace of a TV show won't permit that kind of senseless wandering and endless cyvasse playing. Shit needs to happen.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by JAG

Anyone read the World of Ice and Fire sample on GRRM's website?

WORLD OF ICE AND FIRE SAMPLE | George R.R. Martin

I wasn't thinking I'd get it before, but now I'm leaning towards buying it.

Comes out next week! I've had it on pre-order since June. Can't wait!

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Good. Because the Tyrion chapters in "Dance" largely sucked. Everything with Penny was torture.

There is simply too much meandering in Books 4 and 5. The pace of a TV show won't permit that kind of senseless wandering and endless cyvasse playing. Shit needs to happen.

This times a thousand.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Good. Because the Tyrion chapters in "Dance" largely sucked. Everything with Penny was torture.

There is simply too much meandering in Books 4 and 5. The pace of a TV show won't permit that kind of senseless wandering and endless cyvasse playing. Shit needs to happen.

I sped-read through a lot of those Tyrion/Penny chapters TBH. It was just all such boring BS.

Totally agree with you - if they can figure a way to compress it without damaging like the...core of the story, then I'm 1000% good with that.