OT: A Song of Ice and Fire Series (spoilers inside)

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

We'd have to draw the line at drafting dragons though .

Not necessarily...I imagine by the end of October there'll be info on plenty more dragons out there.

[ISiddiqui]

I'm not entirely sure. Besides, aside from size, do we really know much about which dragon is better than another? They can all breathe fire, maybe a slightly smaller one is faster? Who knows?

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Oh, yeah? Well I'll draft the Seven-Faced God and call it a day.

I'll counter that with the Many Faced God.

[Autumn]

Hmm, a draft could be good. How about:

Castle
Lord
Knight
Family Member
Creature
Servant
House

[ISiddiqui]

Screw y'all, R'hillor trumps any other god - The Red God gets shit down.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Hmm, a draft could be good. How about:

Castle
Lord
Knight
Family Member
Creature
Servant
House

I was thinking of something like this myself:

Queen
King
Hand of the King
Lord Commander of Kingsguard
Master at Arms
Maester
Master of Coin
Heir (x2?)
Seat of Power

with maybe:
Master of Whispers
Diplomat

Also I would have each drafter pick their own sigil and motto.

[Coffee Warlord]

Are there really enough characters for THAT many people in a draft, given what, 8-10 drafters?

100+ characters, even in Game of Thrones univsere, is gonna stretch things a little thin.

[Coffee Warlord]

1) King (or Queen)
2) Hand of the King
3) Lord Commander of the Kingsguard
4) Master of Coin
5) Master of Whispers
6) Maester
7) Seat of Power
8) Heir Apparent

Maybe that?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

Are there really enough characters for THAT many people in a draft, given what, 8-10 drafters?

100+ characters, even in Game of Thrones univsere, is gonna stretch things a little thin.

History mate.

[Coffee Warlord]

Yeah, but is it really all that interesting of a draft if half our guys are relatively obscure folks from one two hundred years ago? I'd actually argue it'd be a far more interesting draft with the rule of, "Character must have been alive at start of book 1."

[NobodyHere]

Assuming we only choose from characters alive on Day 1, the end of Dance of Dragons has 50 pages that only list characters. I think we'll be able to find 100 characters (assuming 10 slots with 10 drafters).

[Autumn]

Yeah I would think the categories would have to be broad enough to make for interesting selections. you're not going to find eight interesting Masters of Coin.

[Coffee Warlord]

How about...

1) King/Queen
2) Hand of the King
3) Lord Commander of the Kingsguard
4) Master of Whispers
5) Field Marshal (aka General)
6) Fleet Admiral
7) Seat of Power
8) Heir Apparent
9) Sent to the Wall (the fun pick, aka you draft one total asshole that you ship off to the Night's Watch)

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

Yeah, but is it really all that interesting of a draft if half our guys are relatively obscure folks from one two hundred years ago? I'd actually argue it'd be a far more interesting draft with the rule of, "Character must have been alive at start of book 1."

Eh.. to be honest that wouldn't really interest me at all.

The rich world is what I love most about the series.

[ISiddiqui]

So early on in Clash of Kings we get an insight into why Davos is so fiercely loyal to Stannis. I think one of the things the show skips over is this - and a lot of the unsullied show watchers are kind of confused as to why this fantastic character of Davos is so loyal to this crappy character of Stannis (also their feelings about Stannis are super ridiculously wrong, but they are unsullied - I guess some latitude must be given ). The chapter where the wooden Seven are burned, Davos thinks to himself that Stannis has given him everything. And to a large extent its true. Davos also thinks about how his sons would have been fodder for the Wall, but now are sons of a knight, and some will be knights themselves. He now had land where his wife is called m'lady by servants. And all of that was done by Stannis. I would imagine that someone would have the strongest loyalty to the one that basically lifted them out of where they were and into the highest class possible, securing for them and their children a much better future. At one point Davos half-jokes with Sallador Saan that Stannis is his god, as he made Davos.

This is also driven home when it comes to Davos's dealings with other Lords. They don't respect him at all, especially because they know he's just a low-born smuggler. Davos thinks to himself that were Stannis to die, the Lords would quickly remove all that he had been given and return him to the lowborn life he had.

All that more than explains the loyalty Davos feels to Stannis. Any other lord would have likely rewarded Davos by giving him a ton of money and telling him never to be caught smuggling again. Stannis actually transforms Davos's life, which is the reason why some of the unsullied dreams that Davos turns on Stannis are not likely to happen.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Eh.. to be honest that wouldn't really interest me at all.

The rich world is what I love most about the series.

Maybe have some sort of "Historical Legend" category?

For example the Starks have Bran the Builder and the Lannisters have Lann the Clever.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Maybe have some sort of "Historical Legend" category?

For example the Starks have Bran the Builder and the Lannisters have Lann the Clever.

Those are Age of Heroes mythological dudes, however. Not the same as picking folks from the Blackfyre Rebellion or Aegon's Conquest.

[NobodyHere]

Sorry, I think I misunderstood you.

[ISiddiqui]

Besides, how are you going to find 8 or 10 people worthy of being "Lord Commander of the Kingsguard" if you don't go to the history GRRM has written? People alive at the beginning of Book 1 who may be good for the role are... Ser Barristan, Loras Tyrell, Syrio Forel, Oberyn Martell, GreatJon Umber, Brienne of Tarth, and that's about it, right? And even that is stretching it somewhat.

[NobodyHere]

I think there are plenty more than that. It's up to the drafter to make the case.

[ISiddiqui]

It's just going to devolve into argument then .

[NobodyHere]

Isn't that what a good draft is all about?

[ISiddiqui]

Besides, even in my list, Loras Tyrell is a TERRIBLE choice. He's the heir to Highgarden. Way to piss off Mace Tyrell and deny yourself a close ally in charge of the Reach.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

I think there are plenty more than that. It's up to the drafter to make the case.

This.

And I still think you have to use only people alive at book 1. There's way more information and backstory available to the "now" guys than there is with 99% of the pre-book characters.

[NobodyHere]

So I'm thinking (mostly copied from CoffeeWarlord, who has my favorite FOFC screenname btw)

1) King
2) Queen(The ladies of Westeros and beyond need loving too)
3) Hand of the King
4) Lord Commander of the Kingsguard
5) Maester
6) Field Marshal (aka General)
7) Seat of Power
8) Heir Apparent
9) Sent to the Wall
10) Servant (Must not be knighted)

[ISiddiqui]

In my continued series of re-reading of The Song of Ice and Fire (we are at early Clash of Kings):

The first Theon chapter is quite interesting in the sense of, the show has really tainted my view of the character. The show seemingly portrays Theon has this horrible person who turned his back on the Starks and how could he do such a thing?! The Theon chapter indicates how he could and why Catelyn was 100% correct when he warned Robb against sending Theon as an envoy. These are the things lost in the show, especially when you can't portray the inner thoughts of the characters.

Theon has been a prisoner at Winterfell for 10 years. When he comes to Pyke, he remembers how this was his home and how he was ripped from it to be a hostage when his father, Balon started his rebellion (fun foreshadowing, Theon walks across the rickety wooden and rope bridge to the Sea Tower and remarks how dangerous it is... I believe its the same one that Balon dies on). Theon thinks about how he was watching as his home was stormed and towers were reduced to rubble. And now he's finally back home and he can't wait to prove himself to his father, who he hasn't seen since he was a little boy.

It makes all the sense in the world as to why Theon would turn on Winterfell. Especially when you see it from his eyes as a hostage, not as, as sometimes seemingly gets portrayed in the show, as an honored guest.

[Autumn]

And I think importantly for his character, when he is sent back he is given the choice basically of being the spoiled little whelp who licks the Stark boots, or proving himself as a loyal son who hates the Starks. It's not much of a choice, and as you say, the real mistake was in sending him there.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Autumn

And I think importantly for his character, when he is sent back he is given the choice basically of being the spoiled little whelp who licks the Stark boots, or proving himself as a loyal son who hates the Starks. It's not much of a choice, and as you say, the real mistake was in sending him there.

Indeed. And folks he meets in the Iron Islands (Damphair, Balon Greyjoy) all ask him outright if he's become soft (he shows up to meet his father wearing jewelry bought with gold instead of iron).

[BishopMVP]

Some cool links to some of the costume design choices made on GoT - Sansa's dress is awesome. 6 TV Shows That Put Insane Work Into Details Nobody Noticed | Cracked.com

[ISiddiqui]

So early on in Clash of Kings, Bran is holding court and all the North come to visit after Robb is declared King in the North. They mention that two don't come, and one is the Bastard of Bolton - who is forming up troops menacingly and then there is a discussion of "Reek" who doesn't bathe. It's amazing how GRRM is foreshadowing all of this in seemingly throw away asides. Really well done!

Also, the forming up of troops may indicate that Bolton was already planning something, even before Robb married Jeyne Westerling.

[PilotMan]

It would seem to me that the Bolton's were always looking out for #1 and were preparing for an opportunity. Whatever form that might take.

[ISiddiqui]

About a 3rd of the way through Clash of Kings...

It's interesting that words "The Song of Ice and Fire" are rarely referenced in the books. We all basically remember the (not said in the show frustratingly enough) vision in Qarth (more on Qarth below) in the House of the Undying where Dany sees Rhaegar Targaryen and Elia of Dorne with young Aegon and Rhaegar says "Yours will be the song of Ice and Fire" (another reason I think Aegon is real, FWIW).

However, the FIRST time Ice and Fire is mentioned is during a feast in Winterfell after Robb is King of the North and the Lords of the North come to pledge their fealty. Meera and Jojen Reed arrive during the feast itself and recite a highly ritualized oath culminating with them saying that they would be with Bran (the Stark in Winterfell) through ice and fire. Not that we didn't suspect it, but it appears Bran is very important to this thing... and makes me a bit pissy that the show killed Jojen. Then again they never said those words, so it wouldn't be the same, but it'd be nice to see Jojen get to keep his pledge to be with Bran in fire as well as ice.


So, I mentioned Qarth beforehand. The show fucks this up royally and I had completely forgotten. In the show, the 13 don't want Dany in and set up a championship battle (I think this is mostly to show what a badass Jorah is). In the books, Dany's bloodrider finds Qarth and brings Pyat Pree and a few others to the dead city Dany's tiny khalassar are in. They are given a heroes welcome and everyone is overflowing with generosity. At no point are the gates barred.

Speaking of gates, in the books, Qarth's gates are actually 3 gates, made of valuable metals and sparking. The city of Qarth is magnificent, yet in the show it basically resembles Pentos or maybe King's Landing. In the books, Qarth basically puts those cities to shame. Dany thinks that Xaro Xaros Daxos's manor makes Illyrio's look like a small house - it is that impressive. I think in Earth historical terms - Qarth is Babylon. It is the most impressive city in the books thus far (eclipsing the cities of Slaver's Bay), but you wouldn't know it from the show.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

About a 3rd of the way through Clash of Kings...

I'm loving these posts, btw. Please keep them up!

and makes me a bit pissy that the show killed Jojen. Then again they never said those words, so it wouldn't be the same, but it'd be nice to see Jojen get to keep his pledge to be with Bran in fire as well as ice.

D00d! Did you not see the fireballs!!!

So, I mentioned Qarth beforehand. The show fucks this up royally and I had completely forgotten.

I dunno. I take this to mean that Qarth's not going to be particularly important to the remainder of the story. Although, bear in mind, I can't remember what the situation is, vis-a-vis the most recent book, regarding Qarth. But if Dany's next step is to Westeros, then that's the end of Qarth in the narrative, presumably.

I agree with what I think you're implying, however, that the show's missed a chance to show, in a sense, how backwards Westeros is, generally. To put it into historical terms, IMO Westeros is Europe in its pre-plague years, at best, and a number of the Free Cities are either on the cusp of the Renaissance or already there. Even Dorne seems to be ahead of the rest of Westeros (perhaps because it hasn't endured as much fighting) - a point I hope is emphasized in the next season.

To that point, if more time is spent in Braavos next season, maybe they're transfer Qarth's opulence to Braavos. The interactions with the Iron Bank so far have, if you're looking for it, implied that the nobles of Westeros are backwards little shits, so it'll be interesting to see if they expand upon that.

All of which leads us to another conclusion: dragons are/were a barrier to societal advancement, especially in terms of, say, technology. I have a strong suspicion this is part of Martin's thesis here. Westeros clearly hasn't advanced as much as other parts of the world. Ironically, then, the presence of dragons has made Westeros less capable to deal with the threat of the Others. I wonder if that'll ever come up in the books or show.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I'm loving these posts, btw. Please keep them up!

Thanks . I appreciate it!

I dunno. I take this to mean that Qarth's not going to be particularly important to the remainder of the story. Although, bear in mind, I can't remember what the situation is, vis-a-vis the most recent book, regarding Qarth. But if Dany's next step is to Westeros, then that's the end of Qarth in the narrative, presumably.

I agree with what I think you're implying, however, that the show's missed a chance to show, in a sense, how backwards Westeros is, generally. To put it into historical terms, IMO Westeros is Europe in its pre-plague years, at best, and a number of the Free Cities are either on the cusp of the Renaissance or already there. Even Dorne seems to be ahead of the rest of Westeros (perhaps because it hasn't endured as much fighting) - a point I hope is emphasized in the next season.

To that point, if more time is spent in Braavos next season, maybe they're transfer Qarth's opulence to Braavos. The interactions with the Iron Bank so far have, if you're looking for it, implied that the nobles of Westeros are backwards little shits, so it'll be interesting to see if they expand upon that.

Kind of. Qarth does show how backwards Westeros is, which the Free Cities can also do. However, the Free Cities have lots of trade with Westeros. Braavos lends the Iron Throne tons of money. Pentos and Lys do extensive trade with Westeros.

I think Martin's point was even greater than that - that the Eastern cities, like Qarth, Asshai, Yi Ti, etc. are on a different plane. It drives home that what people are fighting for are some of the crappiest kingdoms in the world - it's like how we look at people fighting like crazy over sub-Saharan Africa.

You almost get the feeling that Dany would have been better off hanging out in Qarth than ruling in Westeros even though everyone is trying to get her dragons (but they can't really just take them). Of course the show tries to undermine that entire feeling by not only making Qarth less impressive, but also inventing the story of the dragons being stolen.

One of the amusing things is when Dany enters into Qarth and her eyes grow wide, she remembers what Viserys said about how wonderful King's Landing was and thinks that its going to be absolutely amazing if Qarth, a lesser city, is this magnificent. Dany is going to be REALLY disappointed with Westeros after Qarth, Meereen, and even Pentos. I wonder if that's a final twist - she says screw it .

All of which leads us to another conclusion: dragons are/were a barrier to societal advancement, especially in terms of, say, technology. I have a strong suspicion this is part of Martin's thesis here. Westeros clearly hasn't advanced as much as other parts of the world. Ironically, then, the presence of dragons has made Westeros less capable to deal with the threat of the Others. I wonder if that'll ever come up in the books or show.

Hmmm, I'm not entirely sure I follow you here. Unless you are saying the competition among the Seven Kingdoms would have created more technological advancement than one Kingdom united by the power of dragons.

Obviously Valyria was very technologically advanced and that advancement came after their discovery of dragons (Valyria was basically a city of sheephearders before they discovered dragons).

[ISiddiqui]

One of the interesting things in the series that doesn't come across in the books is how broken Catelyn is after Ned's death. I think we all remember how heartbreaking it was to read Cat's thoughts at the Red Wedding, when she was silently pleading not to have her hair cut because Ned loved her hair, but even in Clash of Kings, she thinks about how she has died with Ned. It's really a very important part of her actions. After losing Ned, she's in perpetual grief and constantly thinking about him. It doesn't translate to the show, but I wish they would have done so.

[DaddyTorgo]

GUYS GUYS GUYS!!!!!

'Game of Thrones' season 5 to have first-ever flashback scene | Inside TV | EW.com

[flere-imsaho]

I think we already guessed that, based on casting?

[DaddyTorgo]

I must have missed that here. LOL

[flere-imsaho]

I'll put good money on fans of the TV show starting to complain this season about "flashbacks" and "stalling".

[ISiddiqui]

Though, from the link:

By making the first season, we set a rule: No prophecies, dreams or flashbacks. We failed the first two and this season the third. So yes, this season will finally have flashbacks.

NO PROPHECIES?!!! NO DREAMS?!! WTF?! So... Bran sees the Three Eyed Crow where? Dany learns what in the House of the Undying? I'm more and more wondering what the showrunners think they are doing.

[flere-imsaho]

Hey, just be glad they're also open to change.

[flere-imsaho]

I do wonder, however, how valuable flashbacks are going to be. I'm sure I'll be proven wrong, but it smells a lot like a stalling technique to me.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I do wonder, however, how valuable flashbacks are going to be. I'm sure I'll be proven wrong, but it smells a lot like a stalling technique to me.

On some level it may actually deepen some of the stuff us book readers have been yelling about for a whole. The flashback we know is about Maggy's (I think that's her name) prophecy that Cersei will die by her brother. That indicates one of the reasons she's so cold to Tyrion (she never suspects Jamie, but, of course it's likely to be him...), but we may get Ned (yay, Sean Bean again) and Howland Reed fighting to save Lyanna and getting the "promise me Ned" scene. Stuff like that.

[flere-imsaho]

To which I say: meh.

[ISiddiqui]

Oh, I almost forget to mention (but typing up Howland Reed jogged my memory) in reading Clash of Kings, my question about why the Reed kids are with Bran for so long without their father coming looking for them is answered right in the text. Bran tells Howland about his greendream of bringing Bran north beyond the Wall and Howland sends his kids up to Winterfell right away to do it. So Howland Reed is fine with his kids gone, because he knows their mission (or part of it). You wonder why Ramsey doesn't go after Howland Reed to see what he knows.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

On some level it may actually deepen some of the stuff us book readers have been yelling about for a whole. The flashback we know is about Maggy's (I think that's her name) prophecy that Cersei will die by her brother. That indicates one of the reasons she's so cold to Tyrion (she never suspects Jamie, but, of course it's likely to be him...), but we may get Ned (yay, Sean Bean again) and Howland Reed fighting to save Lyanna and getting the "promise me Ned" scene. Stuff like that.

It also explains some of Cersei's attitude towards Margaery Tyrell *quack* if I'm not mistaken.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

To which I say: meh.

That stuff makes the story. The showrunners have omitted so much essential stuff that shows the motivations or backstories.

When Jon is revealed to be the son of Rheagar and Lyanna, its better if the blocks are set in place, rather than an out of the blue moment. The later just looks like they just made it up while the former indicates that it had been part of the plan since the beginning.

[Coffee Warlord]

The Lyanna Scene (tm) would be absolutely huge.

And Martin would probably stab the showrunners if they dared put that in before he got to write it.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

It also explains some of Cersei's attitude towards Margaery Tyrell *quack* if I'm not mistaken.

I had forgotten... you are correct.

Maggy - A Wiki of Ice and Fire

Cersei: When will I wed the prince?
Maggy: Never. You will wed the king.
Cersei: I will be queen, though?
Maggy: Aye. Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.[2]

[DaddyTorgo]

What if they take some liberties and "combine" Maggy the Frog with Jenny of Oldstones?

That'd enable them to easily have one "prophesy character" who could reveal all of that stuff.