Lakers vs Magic and the 2008-2009 NBA Playoffs/Finals Thread

[Jas_lov]

Orlando was 2-0 vs the Lakers in the regular season so the regular season doesn't mean shit. A healthy KG and the Celtics are easily in the finals. The Lakers were much improved this year so it would have been a great series between those two.

But other than that I don't think the Lakers got lucky and avoided good teams in the playoffs. Orlando was better than Cleveland and Denver was the next best the west had to offer this year and the Lakers beat them both pretty handedly. You have to give their front office, Phil, and Kobe a lot of credit.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Jas_lov

Orlando was 2-0 vs the Lakers in the regular season so the regular season doesn't mean shit. A healthy KG and the Celtics are easily in the finals. The Lakers were much improved this year so it would have been a great series between those two.

But other than that I don't think the Lakers got lucky and avoided good teams in the playoffs. Orlando was better than Cleveland and Denver was the next best the west had to offer this year and the Lakers beat them both pretty handedly. You have to give their front office, Phil, and Kobe a lot of credit.

That I agree with (on Boston). They were probably the toughest matchup for the Lakers. That said, I still don't know that they get past the Cavs or the Magic. They didn't show themselves to be as good as the Cavs when KG was healthy, and they were only a little better than the Magic at that time as well.

It would have a been a great series to see, though, yes.

[RainMaker]

Houston is better with Yao. They had a better chance of winning that series with him in there than with him out.

I'm not saying Denver and Orlando is bad, I'm saying neither team could beat the teams that were in their spots last year. Orlando is not better than last year's Celtics while Denver is not better than last year's Spurs.

That means the Lakers had an easier time. If KG's knee doesn't go kaput, they probably lose in the Finals again. I'm not saying they don't deserve the title or that they were lucky, just that it's much easier to run the table this year than it has been in previous seasons. None of the teams they beat were considered legitimate championship contenders before the playoffs began.

[Neon_Chaos]

Easily the best playoffs from first round to the Finals in the past three or so seasons. Almost every game in every series was a must-watch.

The Lakers had a tougher road to the Finals this year, but they managed to keep it together and deliver in the clutch, specially in Games two and four of the Finals. This could easily have been 3-1 Orlando, if things didn't fall into place for LA.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

That I agree with (on Boston). They were probably the toughest matchup for the Lakers. That said, I still don't know that they get past the Cavs or the Magic. They didn't show themselves to be as good as the Cavs when KG was healthy, and they were only a little better than the Magic at that time as well.

It would have a been a great series to see, though, yes.

The Celtics wouldn't have gone past the Cavs, even if KG had been healthy. That Cavs team was built to destroy the Celtics, specially after the Conference Finals loss last year. That's why the Cavs were ill-equipped to handle the Magic at all.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Houston is better with Yao. They had a better chance of winning that series with him in there than with him out.

I'm not saying Denver and Orlando is bad, I'm saying neither team could beat the teams that were in their spots last year. Orlando is not better than last year's Celtics while Denver is not better than last year's Spurs.

That means the Lakers had an easier time. If KG's knee doesn't go kaput, they probably lose in the Finals again. I'm not saying they don't deserve the title or that they were lucky, just that it's much easier to run the table this year than it has been in previous seasons. None of the teams they beat were considered legitimate championship contenders before the playoffs began.

Houston is a better team with Yao. They did NOT have a better chance of winning that series with him in there than with him out, and the results bear that out. The Lakers were obliterated twice by the post-Yao Rockets. If anything should have been made clear to you in the Finals, it is that quick point guards give the Lakers far more issues than big time centers.

I don't have an issue with you saying the path this year was less than last year's. I have an issue with you disrespecting the achievement, which is still quite significant. Calling it "easy" is disrespectful to what the Lakers did, insults the other teams in the league and insults the level of work the Lakers put into the championship.

And basically saying it doesn't add "much" to Kobe's legacy, that's just sad. That's you trying to bring a guy down because you don't like him. Give respect. They earned it, and he earned it. Be classy.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

The Celtics wouldn't have gone past the Cavs, even if KG had been healthy. That Cavs team was built to destroy the Celtics, specially after the Conference Finals loss last year. That's why the Cavs were ill-equipped to handle the Magic at all.

I agree. The Celtics hadn't shown they would beat the Cavs in a seven game series, even healthy. That's not to say they're worse. I view it like this. There were three top teams in the East, and they formed a triangle. The Magic were an ideal team to beat the Cavs. The Cavs had shown in the regular season that they had at least a slight edge over the Celtics, and seemed likely to be the team that could beat them (especially with home court). I don't think the Magic could beat the healthy Celtics in a series. So it came down to matchup, who met who first. Well, KG being out removed the Celtics from the equation (kudos to them, though, for the fight they gave without him). So that meant it was going to be Magic-Cavs, and the Magic were going to the Finals.

Easy to say in hindsight, of course--I don't think any of this was that obvious before the playoffs, but it seems so now.

I would have loved to have seen a (healthy) Celtics-Cavs series, too, though.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Houston is a better team with Yao. They did NOT have a better chance of winning that series with him in there than with him out, and the results bear that out. The Lakers were obliterated twice by the post-Yao Rockets. If anything should have been made clear to you in the Finals, it is that quick point guards give the Lakers far more issues than big time centers.

I don't have an issue with you saying the path this year was less than last year's. I have an issue with you disrespecting the achievement, which is still quite significant. Calling it "easy" is disrespectful to what the Lakers did, insults the other teams in the league and insults the level of work the Lakers put into the championship.

And basically saying it doesn't add "much" to Kobe's legacy, that's just sad. That's you trying to bring a guy down because you don't like him. Give respect. They earned it, and he earned it. Be classy.

What do you feel this adds to his legacy that wasn't already there? He was already considered a great player who has had a great career. I wasn't bashing his title, I'm just saying I don't think people will look back on this and call it a major moment.

Fact is that while it's another title, it doesn't hold the weight that beating Lebron or a KG-led Celtics would have. Beating Lebron moves him up to another level, beating Hedo Turkoglu doesn't.

I have nothing against Kobe. I enjoyed the close games in this playoffs but still believe it was a much weaker path to a championship than in previous seasons.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

What do you feel this adds to his legacy that wasn't already there? He was already considered a great player who has had a great career. I wasn't bashing his title, I'm just saying I don't think people will look back on this and call it a major moment.

Fact is that while it's another title, it doesn't hold the weight that beating Lebron or a KG-led Celtics would have. Beating Lebron moves him up to another level, beating Hedo Turkoglu doesn't.

I have nothing against Kobe. I enjoyed the close games in this playoffs but still believe it was a much weaker path to a championship than in previous seasons.

You must have missed the media diarrhea the past seven seasons about Kobe needing to win one without Shaq then. I realize I live in LA, where it's everywhere, but even outside of LA, I would have thought it was pretty apparent.

This is the long awaited title that is all Kobe, that seals him as a great player on his own right, and no one can say anymore he was just a second fiddle to Shaq. Of course, his "greatness" has long been established, but the "win one without Shaq" criticism has been on him heavy for some time now.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

That will go down as one of the worst NBA Finals in history.

I think the win helps Kobe's legacy a bit, but not too much. The Lakers had an easy playoffs and avoided most of the teams and players that would have given them trouble. While the overall playoffs was exciting, it has to be one of the worst talent-wise that we've seen in a long time.

Fail

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

You must have missed the media diarrhea the past seven seasons about Kobe needing to win one without Shaq then. I realize I live in LA, where it's everywhere, but even outside of LA, I would have thought it was pretty apparent.

This is the long awaited title that is all Kobe, that seals him as a great player on his own right, and no one can say anymore he was just a second fiddle to Shaq. Of course, his "greatness" has long been established, but the "win one without Shaq" criticism has been on him heavy for some time now.

That's just ESPN bullshit. Kobe was always considered a great player and one of the best in the league at this time.

I wouldn't say he did it all alone though. He has a great supporting cast. Pau is an all-star and one of the best scoring big men in the league. Lamar is a tough matchup that has the talent to be an all-star caliber player on any night. Remember before the Lakers bulked up their team, Kobe was struggling to get his Lakers into the playoffs.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

What do you feel this adds to his legacy that wasn't already there? He was already considered a great player who has had a great career. I wasn't bashing his title, I'm just saying I don't think people will look back on this and call it a major moment.

Kobe is within reach of another two titles in his career and that puts him in some rare company. He's already a top 5 guard of all time with everyone not named Jordan still within reach of passing.

Fact is that while it's another title, it doesn't hold the weight that beating Lebron or a KG-led Celtics would have. Beating Lebron moves him up to another level, beating Hedo Turkoglu doesn't.

Wow. Incredibly asinine comment. Nobody cares who you beat. Nobody remembers AI, or Kidd, or Miller losing in the finals to the Lakers and those were East teams built just like this Magic team. One superstar and a bunch of average joes.

I have nothing against Kobe.

I think we need a sound clip of Christian Bale going off. It would sound rather appropriate

I enjoyed the close games in this playoffs but still believe it was a much weaker path to a championship than in previous seasons.

That Dallas Miami series was certainly the stuff legends are made of...

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

That's just ESPN bullshit. Kobe was always considered a great player and one of the best in the league at this time.

I wouldn't say he did it all alone though. He has a great supporting cast. Pau is an all-star and one of the best scoring big men in the league. Lamar is a tough matchup that has the talent to be an all-star caliber player on any night. Remember before the Lakers bulked up their team, Kobe was struggling to get his Lakers into the playoffs.

I wouldn't say he did it alone either. But this is his title. No doubt about it.

Neither did Jordan (do it alone), who also struggled to get his Bulls titles before Pippen and Grant got up to par and they hired Jackson and improved the talent around him.

That doesn't mean Jordan doesn't deserve full credit for his titles.

The cast around Kobe has improved. But there is no doubt this is his team.

And ESPN BS or not, it was there and leveled at him all the same, by Shaq, by the media (both ESPN and non-ESPN), by fans.

BTW, Kobe only really "struggled" to get his team into the playoffs once, in 2005, when they didn't make it in. They weren't the 8th seed from 2006-08, you know.

[Chief Rum]

You know, Bug, one wonders, speaking of Rainmaker's assertion about KG--what would have happened in 1991 if Magic and Byron don't get hurt?

[Neon_Chaos]

Heck, what if Bynum didn't get hurt last year!

I hate playing what-ifs. These were the cards the Lakers were dealt with this season. Kobe finally wins a title as the leader and finally steps out of the looming shadow of Shaq.

One thing I'm hoping he'd do is REST.

Kobe Bryant hasn't rested since the summer of '07. Two straight finals appearances and the Olympics... the guy is a complete nut.

I sure hope he finally gets that broken finger fixed in the offseason.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Kobe is within reach of another two titles in his career and that puts him in some rare company. He's already a top 5 guard of all time with everyone not named Jordan still within reach of passing.

I don't like combining the two guard spots since they are so different from one another. But Kobe is the 2nd best SG to play the game. Something he was before he won this title.

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Wow. Incredibly asinine comment. Nobody cares who you beat. Nobody remembers AI, or Kidd, or Miller losing in the finals to the Lakers and those were East teams built just like this Magic team. One superstar and a bunch of average joes.

Do you know anything about NBA history? Do you really feel Bird and Magic's legacies would be the same had they not done battle with one another in the Finals? Would Russell's titles have the same lore had he not had to go through Wilt to do it? Don't you think it would have mellowed Jordan's legacy if he hadn't had to go through the biggest superstars in the league in the finals?

The Magic weren't built like the Lakers. Howard isn't a superstar no matter what ESPN tells you. He's a talented young player who disappears when it matters most. Maybe he'll grow into a superstar, but he's not right now. The Magic are built around a lot of really good players who happen to play well together.

Originally Posted by MrBug708

That Dallas Miami series was certainly the stuff legends are made of...

That was a pretty shitty series, but it had some good drama and a great comeback.

[Neon_Chaos]

Rainmaker's right, Lebron James is an ass for not living up to his end of the deal.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

Rainmaker's right, Lebron James is an ass for not living up to his end of the deal.

No one's blaming Kobe for that. Just a fact that beating Lebron or a KG-led Celtics would have done more for his legacy than this Magic team.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't like combining the two guard spots since they are so different from one another. But Kobe is the 2nd best SG to play the game. Something he was before he won this title.

No doubt.

Do you know anything about NBA history? Do you really feel Bird and Magic's legacies would be the same had they not done battle with one another in the Finals? Would Russell's titles have the same lore had he not had to go through Wilt to do it? Don't you think it would have mellowed Jordan's legacy if he hadn't had to go through the biggest superstars in the league in the finals?

Yup. And Jordan went through one of the driest talent periods of the NBA, but that didn't seem to taint his legacy.

The Magic weren't built like the Lakers. Howard isn't a superstar no matter what ESPN tells you. He's a talented young player who disappears when it matters most. Maybe he'll grow into a superstar, but he's not right now. The Magic are built around a lot of really good players who happen to play well together.

It's almost like playing as a team has it's advantages?

That was a pretty shitty series, but it had some good drama and a great comeback.

The point is, no one cares about the losing team. It means little on who you beat. You can't control that aspect so why should it matter?

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

No one's blaming Kobe for that. Just a fact that beating Lebron or a KG-led Celtics would have done more for his legacy than this Magic team.

Kobe's legacy was sealed with an Finals MVP. Unless he wins 2 more titles, then we would have some interesting debates around here

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Yup. And Jordan went through one of the driest talent periods of the NBA, but that didn't seem to taint his legacy.

The 90's saw Robinson, Drexler, Olajuwon, Ewing, Stockton, Malone, and Barkley in their prime. Jordan had to go through the Bad Boys, a tough Knicks team, and teams out of the West led by Magic, Payton, Barkley, Drexler, and Stockton/Malone. He never went into a Finals against a team that didn't have a Hall of Famer on the team.

I don't think the era is as flashy as others due to the defensive rules and style, but it was a rather competitive one. If Jordan was able to play his entire career without hand checking and with defensive 3-seconds, I don't want to even think of what he'd have done. Not to mention the rules currently in place that would have probably suspended the entire Knicks and Pistons roster for their fouls on him in the playoffs.

The big difference in the two is that Jordan was the best player in the league throughout the 90's. Kobe has never been the best player in the league at any given time.

[Big Fo]

I wonder how the offseason will go for Orlando. Turkoglu will opt out of his deal, Gortat will be gone, everyone else who matters will be back. They don't have a first round draft pick.

Turkoglu will want a fair bit more than the $6.9m he made this season and resigning him long-term would make things pretty inflexible in terms of the salary cap. I like Turk but I'm also tired of seeing Howard having to get every rebound, defend the interior all by himself, and seeing Lewis having to guard guys like Gasol. A proper power forward might make up for the loss of Turk's shooting and playmaking by easing the load on Howard and allowing Lewis to play his natural position. Maybe Alston could be traded for a bigger guard who can nail threes, they have too many guards right now.

However, the current group was a missed layup and a missed foul shot away from being up 3-2 in the Finals, and all that with All-Star point guard Nelson either not playing or playing but ineffective in the Finals after being rushed back from that shoulder injury. Boston's big three will be another year older and Cleveland struggles with Orlando, doesn't really have anything that enticing to trade for another star (Shaq isn't the answer imo), and hell Lebron might leave them after next season anyway. Maybe Orlando should resign Turkoglu even if the price is a bit much, they could be looking at a few more Finals appearances in the coming years.

The future is bright despite how much tonight sucked.

[RainMaker]

I actually think this might be a window of opportunity that closed on the Magic tonight. The East only gets tougher from here on out. Chicago and Miami will get better in the coming years. Lebron is just going to get hungrier and his supporting cast can't get much worse. And the Celtics will probably get KG back at some point next year and are in talks with adding someone like Stoudamire to the roster.

They'll be a top tier team in the East, but I definitely think things get much tougher for them.

[Neon_Chaos]

The question I'm looking forward to being answered is how long is Detroit's rebuilding going to take.

Joe Dumars simply threw in the towel for this season with the Iverson-Billups trade, freeing up nearly $30 mil in expiring salary at the end of the season.

Detroit is going to have a lot of money ($18 mil, IIRC) and an established core (Hamilton, Prince, Stuckey) to attract free agents in the next two years.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Easy playoffs? Maybe an easy Finals. Not sure you could say the rest of the playoffs was all that easy for them, though. Sure, there was no Lakers-Kings sorta series in there, but certainly Houston and Denver were not easy series.

Which is all that more damning because it's not like Houston was anywhere near full strength, missing TMac for all of the series and Yao for half and that went 7 games. I'm not going to say something too stupid like "it's an easy playoff so they don't get credit for the win". Far from it- this isn't the NFL where you can win 3 games and you get the trophy. You still have to win 16 and once you get out of the first round, everyone is a quality opponent. I just wish my team were at full strength because we would have had a legit shot to win it all. That's regret on our side and takes nothing away from the title.

I don't like Kobe at all and *I* think it really does matter that he finally won one where it's his team and without Shaq. I could take any of the top 10 players today, put them on a team with early LA Shaq and a competent supporting cast and we might as well just hand them 2 or 3 titles. No one was saying Kobe wasn't a good player, say, on par with Deron Williams or Chris Bosh. This is about weighing him against the all time greats and, yes, he was falling short.

He's not on a team of rubes where he's the only good player, tho, as I have heard in some places. Odom and Gasol, in particular, could be good 2nd/3rd options on any championship caliber team so Kobe had a good team and good role players like Fisher around him. But, again, Jordan had his Pippen and a good ensemble when he started winning. But this was definitely his team where he was the only superstar and that does mean something.

SI

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I actually think this might be a window of opportunity that closed on the Magic tonight. The East only gets tougher from here on out. Chicago and Miami will get better in the coming years. Lebron is just going to get hungrier and his supporting cast can't get much worse. And the Celtics will probably get KG back at some point next year and are in talks with adding someone like Stoudamire to the roster.

They'll be a top tier team in the East, but I definitely think things get much tougher for them.

I would say just the opposite - that this has the chance to be the start of a good run for the Magic but the biggest factor in anything is Dwight Howard. Howard needs to become a dominant center. If he can add at least one post move and improve his FT shooting and ability to pass out of double teams then Orlando is the team to beat. I think they need to keep Turk - yeah it puts them into luxury tax territory but a lineup of Nelson, Lee, Turk, Lewis and Howard is very, very solid.

The Celtics will have KG back but might trade Ray Allen (last year of his contract and Ainge knows his team is OLD plus has contract decisions coming up like Rondo). I don't see Perkins being able to stop Howard. Same for the Cavs - we already saw what a bad matchup that is for them. Miami only gets better if they add another superstar - Bosh wants to play there so they might get him in 2010 or see if they can trade for him but I can't see Toronto trading him unless they got Beasley in the deal and I don't like Chicago - Rose is going to be a good player but they may lose Gordon to free agency and they really need to make some moves to straighten the roster out. If they keep Gordon then why have Salmons and Deng? Who's going to take Deng with his contract? Who's going to stop Howard in the post? Brad Miller? Noah? Ty Thomas? Please...

Detroit is interesting because of the cap room and both Gordon and Boozer have been rumored as possible adds as well as the possibility of trading Rip or Prince. I say if we find a buyer for Rip to do it. Detroit might end up with a decent starting lineup but we have zero depth. Dyess is probably going to a contender (and he should after playing his ass off here to get a ring), Amir Johnson was a disaster and Joe wants to move his contract, Maxiell is a good energy guy but that's what he's good for - 20-25 minutes of high energy but that's his ceiling IMO. Bynum, Afflalo - maybe they turn into decent role players. Even if they sign Boozer that still leaves them one post player short and they might be able to draft Mullens but he's going to take time to develop too.

Like I said, I think everything for Orlando rests on Howard. The Magic are constructed perfectly for him - with Lee, Turk and Lewis all being outside shooters that should leave plenty of space for Nelson to be able to drive and for Howard to post. I think it would be a mistake to get another post player (or even play a guy like Gortat with him) because you're just adding another defender in the post and taking away Howard's room. If he can prove that he's got more than one move (back them down and dunk) and can pass or even take a dribble and then pass out of a double/triple team then they're going to be really, really tough to defend. The one move Orlando needs to do is ship Alston - that guy has the ability to implode that team with his attitude - not to mention that he's just way too inconsistent.

[Gary Gorski]

dola

I can think of one other move Orlando should make if they want to win a championship but they wouldn't have the balls to do it

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

You know, Bug, one wonders, speaking of Rainmaker's assertion about KG--what would have happened in 1991 if Magic and Byron don't get hurt?

I think you're mixing up series, Magic and Byron got hurt in the 89 Finals against the Pistons who swept them 4-0. Prior to the Finals, that Lakers team looked better than the 88 team that repeated and beat the Pistons 4-3.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The 90's saw Robinson, Drexler, Olajuwon, Ewing, Stockton, Malone, and Barkley in their prime. Jordan had to go through the Bad Boys, a tough Knicks team, and teams out of the West led by Magic, Payton, Barkley, Drexler, and Stockton/Malone. He never went into a Finals against a team that didn't have a Hall of Famer on the team.

Look at some of these players though, Drexler was on his way out of the league by 96, and his peak was awfully short.

How dominant was Patrick Ewing? Looking back, was it partially that he was an above average center, and part that there were no other great centers? Olajuwon, Stockton, and Malone were all great. Barkley could be up there as well, but who else were on those teams?

I think the 90s were haunted by the legacy of the 80s which was a league that propped up the superstars, and when Magic and Bird left, there were suddenly a lot fewer of them. The players you named were all players that they tried to pass the mantle to, but they lacked the skills of Magic and Bird.

Magic led the Lakers to all but two NBA Finals in the 80s. He won two titles against Dr. J, and two against Bird. His other title came against Isiah's Pistons. The two times they did not get to the Finals they lost to the Rockets. In 81, Magic was hurt and his comeback largely derailed the team and led ultimately to Westhead's firing in 82, while in 86, the Lakers were derailed by the Twin Towers of the Rockets.

In the 80s, the Celtics had to first beat Dr. J's 76ers, and then later had to beat the Pistons and Bulls. That was to just get to the Finals. Where they would meet the Lakers.

The 76ers had multiple HoF caliber players on the team, the Celtics had 3, (4 in 86 with Walton playing as a sixth man when healthy), the Lakers had 3, borderline 4. You simply didn't have teams of that caliber in the 90s. Portland had Drexler and Porter, but Porter was not HoF caliber. The Rockets had a number of past their prime superstars, with the exception of Olajuwon. But they never ran up against the Bulls in either of their runs. But they would have been annihilated by the Bulls. Outside of Stockton and Malone, can you name one other player on any of their Jazz teams?

The 90s just didn't have any great teams, outside of the Bulls, and it showed.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

I don't see Perkins being able to stop Howard.

Perkins didn't have much problem with Howard this year. Between Perk + Big Baby they were able to force him outside his range fairly consistently.

[MikeVic]

I thought Hornacek was good at what he did. The Sonics were a good team. Payton will be a HoFer, and they had respectable other players like Schrempf and Kemp.

I didn't read the argument going on, just this last post about the 90s having lesser talent when Jordan was around and although I don't feel like going through rosters, that just feels wrong. I remember being so excited to watch basketball back then.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

I thought Hornacek was good at what he did. The Sonics were a good team. Payton will be a HoFer, and they had respectable other players like Schrempf and Kemp.

I didn't read the argument going on, just this last post about the 90s having lesser talent when Jordan was around and although I don't feel like going through rosters, that just feels wrong. I remember being so excited to watch basketball back then.

All the players in NBA Jam are better than 90% of this year's playoff rosters, and I may or may not be joking.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

dola

I can think of one other move Orlando should make if they want to win a championship but they wouldn't have the balls to do it

Fire the coach?

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

All the players in NBA Jam are better than 90% of this year's playoff rosters, and I may or may not be joking.

I'll take that as a serious comment and agree with it unless someone disproves it.

[Passacaglia]

Doesn't NBA Jam only have two players per team?

[Warhammer]

I'm not saying that there weren't great players in the 90s, what I am saying is that the overall talent pool was drying up a good bit. You didn't have the collection of talent that other teams had.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Perkins didn't have much problem with Howard this year. Between Perk + Big Baby they were able to force him outside his range fairly consistently.

Agreed - I guess I wasn't clear. I'm talking assuming Howard does what he needs to do to get to the next level. There's no next level for Perk and Big Baby I think if Orlando wants to win a title Howard has to be the dominant big man he can become. Right now you can stop him by either pushing him further than dunk range or just run multiple guys at him and let him turn the ball over.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Fire the coach?

Yup - if it could be botched SVG did it all playoffs long. He got away with the Cleveland series only because their coach is worse. Instead he'll get an extension for getting to the Finals. Shaq was right when he called him the master of panic and predicted that he would let the team down in important playoff situations which he did time and time again. He can blame Jameer Nelson all he wants for not stepping up on Fisher at the 3 line in game four but a) it was a dumb defensive play to begin with and b) why is Nelson even in the game when you need one defensive stop and have a taller and better defensive guard on the bench in Courtney Lee?

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Doesn't NBA Jam only have two players per team?

Three, actually, but if you put them with an average NBA bench nowadays, I think Pumpy might actually be onto something. Especially in the East.

SI

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

I'm not saying that there weren't great players in the 90s, what I am saying is that the overall talent pool was drying up a good bit. You didn't have the collection of talent that other teams had.

Alternatively it only seems like teams have less talent because the game has shifted to service the superstars at the expense of contributions from the role players.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I think a nice exercise would be to name the second-best player on each team and then pick the second-best player from each NBA Jam team and see who would kick whose ass. I mean, hell, I'm not going through that assignment, but I'm throwing it out there.

[MikeVic]

NBA Jam or NBA Jam TE?

[Big Fo]

TE shits on the original. Hardaway/Anderson/Grant (but with Shaq's attributes since he couldn't be in the game due to the abortion known as Shaq Fu) ftw.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I would use the original NBA Jam just to stress test my point. That would be epic.

[sterlingice]

I would use TE since it's the vastly superior version

SI

[MikeVic]

Get the ball rolling....

NBA Jam
NBA Jam Tournament Edition
NBA.com Team Index

Atlanta: Stacey Augmon vs Josh Smith? I liked Augmon as a player, and Smith is good too, but I'll say Augmon.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I really only say to use NBA Jam because it only had two players per team, and it would be fairly easy to agree on who the #2 guy was supposed to be. I'm trying to get us all on the same page here. This is supposed to be scientific!!!

[MikeVic]

LOL. Reading through the wiki entry for T.E., came across this:

Due to contractual obligations from having their own video games, several players were not allowed to be featured in NBA Jam T.E. Chief among those barred from appearing in the game were Michael Jordan (Michael Jordan in Chaos in the Windy City), Shaquille O'Neal (Shaq Fu),Charles Barkley (Shut up and Jam I&II) and Cedric Ceballos (Harlem Globetrotters).

One of these things is not like the others...

[Pumpy Tudors]

Yeah, what the hell is Michael Jordan in Chaos in the Windy City?

Oh, I see what you mean.

[sterlingice]

Really? Cedric Ceballos was on the Harlem Globetrotters?

SI