Lakers vs Magic and the 2008-2009 NBA Playoffs/Finals Thread

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

When you get a lot of calls from the refs, have 17 more free throw attempts against your opponent, and miss 15 of those free throws during a close game, you probably deserve to lose.

What he said. I don't believe in the thought process that says that teams foul the same amount therefore the foul shots would be the same. What good is "home cooking" when you can't close out the advantage you give. I'd just as well suspend Kobe for the next game, I doubt it would matter other then giving the Lakers an extra 3 million in playoff revenue

[Neon_Chaos]

I certainly don't think that the refs are in it for the Lakers to win. I just think they're horrible at what they do.

There were lots of no calls on Kobe's shots this entire series, lots of phantom fouls on both the Lakers and the Magic.

Oh, and how about this beauty of a "block" from Dwight, on the same game that Gasol was being questioned for goaltending Lee's final shot attempt

[Danny]

Should have been an offensive foul on Kobe. The shot a minute or so before where Kobe air balled was a foul. Some bad calls on both sides, but of course all the focus is on the Laker's one at the end. Magic had more than their chances to win and blew it, bottom line. Also, you people who think the NBA prefer a Lakers win over a long series are foolish, longer the series the more money they make.

[RainMaker]

I don't know why you guys act surprised. Superstars don't play by the same rules as everyone else in the league. Lebron and Kobe could take a baseball bat on the court and start swinging and they'd call the other guy for not having his feet set. Welcome to the NBA!

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

I certainly don't think that the refs are in it for the Lakers to win. I just think they're horrible at what they do.

There were lots of no calls on Kobe's shots this entire series, lots of phantom fouls on both the Lakers and the Magic.

Oh, and how about this beauty of a "block" from Dwight, on the same game that Gasol was being questioned for goaltending Lee's final shot attempt

Somehow Bynum probably was whistled for the foul

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Danny

Should have been an offensive foul on Kobe. The shot a minute or so before where Kobe air balled was a foul. Some bad calls on both sides, but of course all the focus is on the Laker's one at the end. Magic had more than their chances to win and blew it, bottom line. Also, you people who think the NBA prefer a Lakers win over a long series are foolish, longer the series the more money they make.

NBA doesn't give a crap how long the Finals go. They get paid a flat rate for their TV package and the contract has many years left on it. It's a superstar league and they care about protecting their superstars at all costs. That is how they sell the league.

I don't think the series is fixed or anything. I just think the refs are incompetent and bias.

[larrymcg421]

Summary of the last couple pages:

"Magic blew the game, but that should have been an offensive foul on Kobe!"
"OMG, the Magic missed free throws. It's their own fault."
"Van Gundy choked, but how do you not call that on Kobe?"
"OMG, the Magic blew the lead. It's their own fault!"
"I agree that the Magic blew it, but I hate that Kobe gets away with elbows like that."
"OMG Dwight committed goaltending two games ago. Face it, the Magic blew it!"

[Neon_Chaos]

Yup, the Magic blew it.

The Lakers didn't take a single free throw in the 4th quarter, and in OT, until the FT by gasol on the very last play of the game.

[larrymcg421]

But the point I was making is that's not a response to complaints about the call, since everyone complaining about the call agrees that the Magic blew it.

If you're looking for people who think the Magic didn't blow it, then you'll have to find another thread, but "The Magic blew it" is a pretty stupid argument since no one is saying otherwise.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

But the point I was making is that's not a response to complaints about the call, since everyone complaining about the call agrees that the Magic blew it.

If you're looking for people who think the Magic didn't blow it, then you'll have to find another thread, but "The Magic blew it" is a pretty stupid argument since no one is saying otherwise.

But the Magic blew it.

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Didnt watch the game. And this is why. The NBA has the worst reffing in all of sports. And thats another reason I will never watch the NBA.

Thanks for that. Maybe you could give us a list of things you don't watch. I'll start on mine:

Pixar movies- sorry they're for kids

Soap Operas- Do I really need to explain?

Courtroom drama shows- Same shit, different crimes

NASCAR- Not a fan of driving around in circles for three hours.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Are you kidding me? The flagrant elbow by Kobe Bryant was FAR worse than what Pietrus did. I'll go one step further than the poster above, not only is it an offensive foul for any other player in the league, it's a flagrant and the guy is suspended for the next game.

If Reddick did that to Kobe, he'd be out the rest of the series. Everytime I want to watch the game again, the league shows how big of an F'n joke it it. Every single time.

Of course the Magic choked the thing away and that's what people will focus on. That doesn't change the fact that yet again, the NBA refs decided a game on a BS non call at the end of a game. This was similar to the Jordan vs. Russell shot that ended the Jazz series. The refs don't call an obvious foul on a star player and the underdog team goes home.

I have never, ever, ever wanted to see a team simply take a cheap shot at someone before in my life. Lakers have the series. I think they were the better team anyway. When they are allowed to throw elbows to the faces of opposing players, they are damned sure the better team. You suck Stern.

Well said, Troy.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Didnt watch the game. And this is why. The NBA has the worst reffing in all of sports. And thats another reason I will never watch the NBA.

Originally Posted by bhlloy

And this really is the crazy thing. The guy has a history of doing it. Wouldn't you expect the refs to be looking for that, rather than swallowing their whistles. This one just has me shaking my head. Both referees saw exactly what happened as clear as day. They had seconds to blow the whistle and they just decided not to call it.

And no, the NBA is absolutely no harder to call than the NHL or college basketball. They just either a) call the game depending on who is in the game and what the situation is, b) are corrupt as hell or c) are completely incompetent (and possibly a combination of all three). NBA refereeing just makes zero sense and the league has no intention of doing anything about it.

Yep and this is why I'm getting closer every year to taking Tarcone's stance and not watching anymore NBA games.

[flere-imsaho]

Each year I watch a bit of the playoffs and a bit of the Finals. And each year I wonder if it's just me who thinks the officiating is effectively random. I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who thinks this way.

[Gary Gorski]

There's reports that after the series SVG will be getting a contract extension for getting them to the finals - that extension better come with a bench coach who understands how to handle end game situations. Equal blame for Howard for missing FTs, Hedo for missed FTs and a terrible shot at the end of OT and Pietrus for a terrible shot at the end of regulation.

The officiating always leaves something to be desired but I don't think the Lakers had a FT in the 4th Q while the Magic had a ton. And I went and watched the replay of the Kobe elbow - its not quite as cut and dry to me at least. Jameer Nelson is still moving towards Kobe - it almost looks like he walked right into it. It's not like the double team was established and then Kobe brought the ball up from his hip with his elbows flying. There was no doubt Nelson had been clipped when it happened but I can understand how the officials in a split second could not decide whether Kobe actually threw an elbow or was he in the process of making an attempt to avoid the double team that was coming and Nelson just walked into it. Of course the fact that it was Kobe made the no call a little easier to make but I'm still not convinced it was the wrong call (and I've been a semi-fan of the Magic since they drafted Shaq fwiw)

[Arles]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Each year I watch a bit of the playoffs and a bit of the Finals. And each year I wonder if it's just me who thinks the officiating is effectively random. I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who thinks this way.

I'm with Flere and it's what makes it tough to invest yourself in rooting for a team in the NBA. There's such a small margin for error that poor officiating can really tip the balance. I have no dog in the playoffs, but I can see how agitating it is for each set of fans with the terrible/blown calls.

To me, actually getting a playoff run for your team and then having idiotic rules cost you players for a key game (Suns, Knicks) or have you face "star-shocked" referees if you are playing a Lebron/Kobe/Jordan makes it almost naive for a fan to go into these playoffs fully invested in their team. I think having a passing interest in the NBA (watch a few playoff games and maybe a handful of regular season games) is about all I can muster. There's just no reason for more when you can really get into sports like the NFL, MLB, college and even the NHL and have a much more rewarding/satisfying season.

[Gary Gorski]

Also I wanted to comment on Howard - he needs to check himself a bit. He complains about not getting the ball in the post or gets so angry about it he starts committing dumb offensive fouls...is he the only one who understands that unless he's got an opportunity to overpower one defender and dunk that he's a complete liability with the ball there? He's a horrible free throw shooter (as evidenced again last night), he's got no post moves and he turns the ball over all the time. How hard is it to understand that you're going to be double and triple teamed so rather than put the ball down on the floor where its going to be stripped just wait for the double and kick it out. And it's completely unexcusable for any NBA player to shoot 50 and 60% from the free throw line. You've got millions of dollars and your "job" is to play basketball - get in the gym and learn how to shoot some free throws rather than wasting time shooting commercials.

[Danny]

Tell us how you really feel about free throw shooting Gary

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

I went and watched the replay of the Kobe elbow - its not quite as cut and dry to me at least.

OMG, are people really saying that should have been a foul on Kobe, and the Magic lost the game because of it? I thought it was a clear flop by Nelson. Almost like he spent a few years in Europe. And this is coming from a guy who has a soft spot for Nelson and HATES Bryant.

I am not the biggest JVG fan, but his analysis of Nelson's poor defense on Fisher at the end of regulation was brilliant - "He's doing you a favor if he drives past you. Why would you try to stop it?"

Pietrus should be suspended for that last play. If that's not a Flagrant II (seems more official with Roman numerals) why have them in the rulebook.

[Neon_Chaos]

Like I posted earlier,

Jameer RAN into that elbow. There was no clear intent at all. Kobe posted up, lifted the ball to protect it, and Jameer just ran into it.

No foul.

[Kodos]

It was absolutely a foul on Kobe. And the Magic have absolutely nobody to blame but themselves.

Glad I've only watched about 8 quarters of NBA basketball this season.

[BrianD]

It didn't look like there was any malicious intent in the Kobe elbow, and I'm not even positive he saw the guy coming. Even so, you get someone in the face with an elbow, that should be a foul. Intent should only matter in determining the severity of the foul.

[Kodos]

The famous Jordan pushoff against Utah always irritated me too.

[Honolulu_Blue]

There seems to be a lot of anger and negativity towards the NBA in this thread.

You guys should stop watching NBA basketball (like a few wise folks have already suggested) and start watching hockey! It's fast, physical and you'll be able to follow the puck on your great big HD TVs. There are some issues with officiating from time to time, but nothing as constant as this.

Climb aboard the NHL Train, fellas! We've got plenty of room.

[Big Fo]

I'll watch the game seven tonight. But if they're on at the same time the NBA with its problems is still more entertaining than hockey.

[Kodos]

Hockey suxxors.

[Arles]

I hadn't been following hockey a ton, but these playoffs have been outstanding. The last game in Pittsburgh was great and I will be glued to the TV tonight.

It's just nice to watch a sporting event playoff where your first thoughts aren't "well, I hope the refs don't f*ck things up tonight".

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Arles

I hadn't been following hockey a ton, but these playoffs have been outstanding.

except for the Bruins laying a mega-turd!

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by Kodos

The famous Jordan pushoff against Utah always irritated me too.

He didn't push off!

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Climb aboard the NHL Train, fellas! We've got plenty of room.

Where can we find the games?

[Karlifornia]

I watch a lot of Warriors games. A lot. I'm a huge fan. I never have these "OH MY GOD THE REFS SCREWED US" feelings that a lot of people seem to have. Maybe I'm naive. Maybe I just don't care enough. However, I've never been sitting there after a Warriors loss thinking "This one falls squarely on the refs' shoulders"

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Arles

I hadn't been following hockey a ton, but these playoffs have been outstanding. The last game in Pittsburgh was great and I will be glued to the TV tonight.

It's just nice to watch a sporting event playoff where your first thoughts aren't "well, I hope the refs don't f*ck things up tonight".

I don't know, wait until Holmstrom or Franzen "accidentally" bowl over the goaltender like they usually do, and nary a call from the refs.

Seriously, though, the officials in the NHL are much, much better than the ones in the NBA. And I only consider the NHL guys to be functionally competent at best.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

I watch a lot of Warriors games. A lot. I'm a huge fan. I never have these "OH MY GOD THE REFS SCREWED US" feelings that a lot of people seem to have. Maybe I'm naive. Maybe I just don't care enough. However, I've never been sitting there after a Warriors loss thinking "This one falls squarely on the refs' shoulders"

I know what you mean. It's something those of us that don't follow good franchises are familiar with. It's called "not nearly close enough to matter."

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

And I only consider the NHL guys to be functionally competent at best.

And that's probably being kind on a lot of nights.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

There seems to be a lot of anger and negativity towards the NBA in this thread.

You guys should stop watching NBA basketball (like a few wise folks have already suggested) and start watching hockey! It's fast, physical and you'll be able to follow the puck on your great big HD TVs. There are some issues with officiating from time to time, but nothing as constant as this.

Climb aboard the NHL Train, fellas! We've got plenty of room.

I haven't watched hockey in at least 5 years, but tonight's game has me hooked in unless it becomes a blowout.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And that's probably being kind on a lot of nights.

Yeah, but like has been said functionally competent is still light years better than the NBA

SI

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

Where can we find the games?

NBC, right now

SI

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

I watch a lot of Warriors games. A lot. I'm a huge fan. I never have these "OH MY GOD THE REFS SCREWED US" feelings that a lot of people seem to have. Maybe I'm naive. Maybe I just don't care enough. However, I've never been sitting there after a Warriors loss thinking "This one falls squarely on the refs' shoulders"

I think a key point people have tried to make in this thread is that the refs did not screw the Magic, but rather that the refs are completely incompetent at what they do. I did not watch much of the game, but the stretch I did watch at the end of the first half seemed to have the refs calling the game VERY tight, but fair, calling it tight on both teams. Which is what makes the no-calls at the end so perplexing.

The real beef are the OBVIOUS fouls that they choose to swallow their whistles on even when staring right at the play. And the whole NBA tradition of stars "getting the calls" is absurd. I was in Orlando and Tampa (college in Tampa, co-op in Orlando) when the Magic came to be, and I remember when they landed Shaq how he couldn't do anything his first 2 years because he wasn't getting the calls. It wasn't until he was established that they let him throw his weight around and he became a dominant player, all because they started calling him differently.

And I'll always come back to Shaq as exposing the fundamental problem with the NBA: when a guy can become a superstar by shoving people backward until he can dunk the ball, you have a problem.

Same gripe is with the NHL: you just have no clue how the refs will call a game, and no clue how they'll call it period to period. It just seems like officials in both sports blow whistles pretty close to at random. And it sucks trying to watch a game and ruins the experience.

That's where all the bitching is coming from.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Arles

I'm with Flere and it's what makes it tough to invest yourself in rooting for a team in the NBA. There's such a small margin for error that poor officiating can really tip the balance. I have no dog in the playoffs, but I can see how agitating it is for each set of fans with the terrible/blown calls.

To me, actually getting a playoff run for your team and then having idiotic rules cost you players for a key game (Suns, Knicks) or have you face "star-shocked" referees if you are playing a Lebron/Kobe/Jordan makes it almost naive for a fan to go into these playoffs fully invested in their team. I think having a passing interest in the NBA (watch a few playoff games and maybe a handful of regular season games) is about all I can muster. There's just no reason for more when you can really get into sports like the NFL, MLB, college and even the NHL and have a much more rewarding/satisfying season.

I think NBA refs have a huge factor on the game, but I still think other sports can claim the same thing. Take football for instance. With the parity we have and how important momentum can be, a bad pass interference call or holding call that kills a big drive can change entire games. Just last year I can remember seeing football games being decided on marginal roughing the passer calls that kept drives alive that shouldn't have been.

[Eaglesfan27]

Very nice stretch of plays by Howard. He should have gotten a foul on the last possession as well.

[sterlingice]

So, I don't usually care or even pay attention to something like this but are they trying to out-ugly each other on the halftime set? Stu Scott has horrible "stylish" glasses while Magic's suit could provide enough light for the state of Rhode Island

SI

[kingfc22]

Bring it on home Kobe.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

For the Finals, I just think this is going to be ugly and over quick- Lakers in 4 or 5. They have some big bodies underneath and, well, what else do the Magic have when the threes aren't falling and someone is collapsing down on Howard?

SI

I'm not great with predictions but this was dead on

SI

[Neon_Chaos]

Five long years.

What a great season for Kobe and the Lakers.

[kingfc22]

Ehhh...Joey Buss that was painful

[RainMaker]

That will go down as one of the worst NBA Finals in history.

I think the win helps Kobe's legacy a bit, but not too much. The Lakers had an easy playoffs and avoided most of the teams and players that would have given them trouble. While the overall playoffs was exciting, it has to be one of the worst talent-wise that we've seen in a long time.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

That will go down as one of the worst NBA Finals in history.

I think the win helps Kobe's legacy a bit, but not too much. The Lakers had an easy playoffs and avoided most of the teams and players that would have given them trouble. While the overall playoffs was exciting, it has to be one of the worst talent-wise that we've seen in a long time.

Easy playoffs? Maybe an easy Finals. Not sure you could say the rest of the playoffs was all that easy for them, though. Sure, there was no Lakers-Kings sorta series in there, but certainly Houston and Denver were not easy series.

[Chief Rum]

Heck, even the Finals was very competitive at times, with the OT games.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Easy playoffs? Maybe an easy Finals. Not sure you could say the rest of the playoffs was all that easy for them, though. Sure, there was no Lakers-Kings sorta series in there, but certainly Houston and Denver were not easy series.

Houston didn't have McGrady or Yao (for the last few games at least).

Denver was a good team, but not a Conference Finals caliber team in my mind. The West was weak this year and had more parity.

Orlando in the Finals was a joke. They are a good team, but they are nowhere near the caliber of a Finals team. The Lakers avoided a matchup with Cleveland that would have been much tougher for them to handle.

Also the loss of KG looms over these playoffs. A healthy KG probably puts the Celtics in the Finals. That's a much tougher series than the Magic team they saw.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Houston didn't have McGrady or Yao (for the last few games at least).

Denver was a good team, but not a Conference Finals caliber team in my mind. The West was weak this year and had more parity.

Orlando in the Finals was a joke. They are a good team, but they are nowhere near the caliber of a Finals team. The Lakers avoided a matchup with Cleveland that would have been much tougher for them to handle.

Also the loss of KG looms over these playoffs. A healthy KG probably puts the Celtics in the Finals. That's a much tougher series than the Magic team they saw.

And Houston actually played a style of game without Yao that was tougher for the Lakers to handle.

You say Denver was not a Conference Finals caliber team, and yet they swept through the playoffs to that point, and were picked by many to beat the Lakers.

If Cleveland was a tougher matchup, why did Orlando beat them--and handily? Are you the only person paying attention to basketball that actually thinks Cleveland is more than LeBron and a relatively weak supporting cast? The Lakers beat Cleveland on the road when no one else did. That's the tougher matchup?

And as for KG, no denying that a healthy Boston would have changed the complexion of this playoffs. But the Lakers also swept them in the regular season, and Cleveland was still proving to be the better team over Boston in the regular season even when KG was around (albeit not by much).

Really, at this point, to crap on the achievement the Lakers have done sounds seriously like sour grapes. Give them their just due. They earned it.