OT: A Song of Ice and Fire Series (spoilers inside)

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs3

From the wiki

Well, there you go then. Thanks RD3.

[NobodyHere]

I was thinking of buying the boxset to re-read the series myself.

[flere-imsaho]

Latest fan speculation, apparently, is that Roose Bolton is a descendant of the Night's King.

Not sure I know/care about that, but it did get me thinking about how the Boltons seem to have a proportionally larger part in the show so far than the books. Given where we are, this kind of thing might (should?) indicate who has importance as the books wind up.

[ISiddiqui]

I was thinking about that as well, but it all might be mere speculation because the show writers were giddy that they had an actual honest to goodness villain rather than a flawed antagonist.

I am of the opinion that Stannis takes Winterfell after the events of Dance with Dragons, so I guess we'll see.

[flere-imsaho]

Of course, an argument could be made that Roose Bolton attempting to make a strong and unified north a reality.

[ISiddiqui]

More fun stuff from reading the books. The Drogo-Dany consummation scene which was totally rapey in the show? One of the most consensual sex scenes in fantasy I've ever read. Yeah, Drogo leads her to a secluded spot, but then begins to engage in foreplay - rubbing her shoulders, etc. And while naked, he asks her "No?" (It's the only Common Tongue word he knows) and Dany says "Yes" and guides his hand to parts below.

Talk about completely changing the entire tenor of a scene.

Of course in the book Khal Drogo is far more refined as well, as the Magisters of Pentos have given the Khal a palatial residence where he and his bloodriders wear silks and act Pentos-y. The wedding goes into traditional horserider and, then they gotta go to Vaes Dothrak to get the blessing on the marriage, but it appears in the books that Drogo has been living in Pentos in luxury for a while.

[DaddyTorgo]

Yeah - Drogo in the books > Drogo on TV.

Although Jason Momoa absolutely killed bringing the character to life (within the confines of the work he was given).

The Dany/Drogo relationship in the show just feels...right. Felt much more of a connection to Drogo then in the books.

Drogo's speech, the whole "and to my son..." bit...that was absolutely EPIC.

[ISiddiqui]

More reading:

The Bran dreamseer dream while still in coma took me by surprise - because of how detailed it was. Bran could see everything going on to his family as the three eyed crow implored him to fly or die and then he looked way up North and shocked the heck out of him and was told that is what he must live, and as soon as he work, he named his direwolf Summer. We know the Children of the Forest have wight resistant powers, what will Bran be able to do to defeat the Others - kind of interesting.

Also, I didn't realize what a spendthrift Robert was!! When Ned found out the realm was in debt (to the tune of 300 golden dragons), he mentioned that under Aerys II, the Treasury was FULL (say what you will about the madness, the realm made money ). What in the world was Robert doing for 30 years to waste all that money? Do tournaments cost that much?

[NobodyHere]

Maybe Littlefinger had some sticky fingers

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

The Bran dreamseer dream while still in coma took me by surprise - because of how detailed it was. Bran could see everything going on to his family as the three eyed crow implored him to fly or die and then he looked way up North and shocked the heck out of him and was told that is what he must live, and as soon as he work, he named his direwolf Summer. We know the Children of the Forest have wight resistant powers, what will Bran be able to do to defeat the Others - kind of interesting.

Good thing to bring back up, especially as I haven't read the books in a while. Again, this is why Bran's story is the most interesting thread so far for me.

Also, I didn't realize what a spendthrift Robert was!! When Ned found out the realm was in debt (to the tune of 300 golden dragons), he mentioned that under Aerys II, the Treasury was FULL (say what you will about the madness, the realm made money ). What in the world was Robert doing for 30 years to waste all that money? Do tournaments cost that much?

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Maybe Littlefinger had some sticky fingers

Option 1 is what NobodyHere suggests, I think.

On Option 2 (spending a lot of money), in Feudal Europe, retaining an entourage was expensive. It's probably the #1 reason that kings did not keep an army together any long than they needed to, and also relied heavily on paying off the nobles and their retinues through looting & ransoms while under campaign.

Given that Martin spends a good amount of time, right off the bat, showing the extent of the retinue Robert brings to Winterfell, it's probably safe to assume he's making the point that this is how Robert normally rolled, and it would have been expensive (combined with other spending, of course).

Option 3 (a little of both) is probably the most likely. So where is Littlefinger's money? Some was probably spent on bribes, but does he have a "war chest" somewhere? Is his in league with the Iron Bank?

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Option 1 is what NobodyHere suggests, I think.

I suppose what I was musing at was that Littlefinger had the dual purpose of making himself rich by stealing money all the while getting loans from the Iron Bank on behalf of the Iron Throne.

Therefore he could possibly buy himself an army and then march on the broke King's landing, or perhaps use another diabolical scheme to take the throne.

[ISiddiqui]

In the chapter it was mentioned, though, that half of what Robert owed was to the Lannisters. One could say that Tywin was fleecing the crown, but it would make little sense considering who would get the throne after Robert.

[flere-imsaho]

I supposed the reason Tywin was happy to lend all that money to the throne was a) sort of an "insurance" policy should people get different ideas about the line of succession and b) in the knowledge that when Joffrey came to the throne Tywin could just forgive the debts.

Either is interesting in the knowledge that the Lannisters' traditional source of wealth (the gold mines) is no longer active (though they still probably get plenty from normal feudal tithing).

It would also explain the problems raised once Tywin finds out that as much as the throne owes the Lannisters, it owes the Iron Bank more.

Tywin knows that once Robert is gone, his family (the Lannisters) can use the throne to generate money (just through normal feudal obligations). Owing a huge amount to the Iron Bank, plus having drained Casterly Rock's own treasury, puts a lot more pressure on Tywin to find a solution.

It would be interesting to know how much of that was Littlefinger's plan all along (thus netting him Harrenhall, amongst other things).

[ISiddiqui]

Actually, the crown owed the Lannisters more than the Iron Bank. The Iron Bank had part of the other half (along with the Tyrells, the Free Cities, etc).

[flere-imsaho]

Ah, thanks for the clarification. Still, if we assume Tywin didn't know about it, and given the Iron Bank's reputation anyway, and Tywin having few other ways to raise the money, it's easy to see how it compounds the problem for him.

But hey, he's dead now and doesn't have to deal with it.

[ISiddiqui]

Cersei is bound to do a good job... right?

[flere-imsaho]

BTW, Jonathan Pryce is a great casting decision, especially in that role. He's going to chew scenery like there's no tomorrow.

[ISiddiqui]

I had also completely forgotten that Stannis was the one going around with Jon Arryn, seeing if the "seed was strong". In fact, there is a lot of discussion about Stannis in Game of Thrones - seems to be more about Stannis than Renly actually saying things. Since Stannis was merely spoken of and had retreated to Dragonstone, I guess I never took much heed of it before.

It seems that Stannis knew what Jon Arryn knew - Joffery, Tommen, and Myrcella weren't Robert's and when Jon was killed, Stannis figured he'd be next, and fled to Dragonstone to prevent assassination.

And I had thought Stannis only knew due to Ned's letter - it appears he had the proof first.

[ISiddiqui]

Reading on in Game of Thrones, Ned's stupidity just still makes me wince. Only one is really for "honor" though. He turns down Renly's offer of 100 swords because he'd be kidnapping the children (exactly what Cersei does with Sansa when she makes her move). Having Uncle Renly bring Joff, Tommen, and Myrcella to Maegor's Holdfast for safe keeping wouldn't have been all that horrible for the kids, I'd imagine.

The second idiotic move though is something that has nothing to do with Ned holding to his "honor", but rather being a moron. The guy already doesn't trust Littlefinger, but then to stick to telling him that he wants Stannis on the throne, even after Littlefinger tells him that'd mean all out war is just ridiculously stupid. I remembered Littlefinger betrayed Ned with the Gold Cloaks (and though it was some strange way to get Cat), but reading it again, it seems like Littlefinger was perfectly happy to support Ned as Protector of the Realm, but was horrified to learn that Ned wanted to put Stannis on the throne and he'd execute half the Lords and start a bloodbath of a war.

--

Oh, and I was thinking today of the mistake of not casting Quentyn - the guy is supposed to be short, so it would have been the best possible chance of casting Daniel Radcliffe in the show . (and the short story arc of Quentyn would have made it easily capable of selling it to a movie star - you only need to film a few episodes worth of scenes)

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Reading on in Game of Thrones, Ned's stupidity just still makes me wince. Only one is really for "honor" though. He turns down Renly's offer of 100 swords because he'd be kidnapping the children (exactly what Cersei does with Sansa when she makes her move). Having Uncle Renly bring Joff, Tommen, and Myrcella to Maegor's Holdfast for safe keeping wouldn't have been all that horrible for the kids, I'd imagine.

The second idiotic move though is something that has nothing to do with Ned holding to his "honor", but rather being a moron. The guy already doesn't trust Littlefinger, but then to stick to telling him that he wants Stannis on the throne, even after Littlefinger tells him that'd mean all out war is just ridiculously stupid. I remembered Littlefinger betrayed Ned with the Gold Cloaks (and though it was some strange way to get Cat), but reading it again, it seems like Littlefinger was perfectly happy to support Ned as Protector of the Realm, but was horrified to learn that Ned wanted to put Stannis on the throne and he'd execute half the Lords and start a bloodbath of a war.

It's interesting to think if Littlefinger really wouldn't have betrayed him if he decided to take the throne himself. I imagine he might not, because he figured that Ned would be a pretty easy target to manipulate and could off him later to get to Cat.

I think what Littlefinger was worried about with Stannis, wasn't so much that it'd mean all out war, Littlefinger thrives in that environment as we saw, but that Stannis would likely tell Littlefinger to fuck off at best, kill him at worst. Littlefinger probably knew that he couldn't "play" Stannis.

Ned's biggest flaws are his honor and his loyalty/love for those he's close to. Both lead him to make some poor decisions.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

I think what Littlefinger was worried about with Stannis, wasn't so much that it'd mean all out war, Littlefinger thrives in that environment as we saw, but that Stannis would likely tell Littlefinger to fuck off at best, kill him at worst. Littlefinger probably knew that he couldn't "play" Stannis.

This.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Oh, and I was thinking today of the mistake of not casting Quentyn - the guy is supposed to be short, so it would have been the best possible chance of casting Daniel Radcliffe in the show . (and the short story arc of Quentyn would have made it easily capable of selling it to a movie star - you only need to film a few episodes worth of scenes)

Meh on stunt casting, though.

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

It's interesting to think if Littlefinger really wouldn't have betrayed him if he decided to take the throne himself. I imagine he might not, because he figured that Ned would be a pretty easy target to manipulate and could off him later to get to Cat.

I agree with this. Despite Ned being all about honor, he would have been easy for Littlefinger to manipulate since he also tended not to believe there were intrigues going on.

I think what Littlefinger was worried about with Stannis, wasn't so much that it'd mean all out war, Littlefinger thrives in that environment as we saw, but that Stannis would likely tell Littlefinger to fuck off at best, kill him at worst. Littlefinger probably knew that he couldn't "play" Stannis.

Yes, exactly.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

I think what Littlefinger was worried about with Stannis, wasn't so much that it'd mean all out war, Littlefinger thrives in that environment as we saw, but that Stannis would likely tell Littlefinger to fuck off at best, kill him at worst. Littlefinger probably knew that he couldn't "play" Stannis.

I dunno so much about that. Melissandre seems to be able to play Stannis when she wants... though she has... um... more to offer. I think a hint may have been when it was sideways referenced that Stannis once wanted to close all the brothels in King's Landing. It may be a more personal hit in the wallet for Littlefinger .

In addition, I do think that all out war was something Littlefinger wanted to mostly avoid. Or at least war between the Lannisters and the Throne. Especially since the Lannisters owned half the debt of the Throne. Masters of Coin (or Secretaries of Treasury) are usually put in a very difficult position in finding money for wars.

[ISiddiqui]

I'm just going to keep talking about some of the stuff I see while reading, even if no one cares... mostly because I love this world Martin has created (and somewhat to see myself talk ).

Anyways, the portrayal of Joffrey I find interesting. Joffrey is, of course, an evil little shit. But that isn't totally obvious early on in Game of Thrones. I mean, yes, he is an arrogant tool (esp towards Robb and Jon while fighting with wooden swords at Winterfell), but in his interactions with Sansa, he seemingly has a deeper kindness. Of course its all told from Sansa's view, but still, he seems to genuinely care for her, while being arrogant and petty. The bad sides are obvious, in dealing with Robb and Jon at Winterfell and Arya and the other kid on the way to King's Landing. But at some points he almost seems like that bad guy who turns good - kind of like the role Jaime has undertaken.

Even right before Ned dies, it seems like perhaps that exists. When Sansa goes to the counsel pleading for mercy for Ned, Cersei and the rest of the small council chastises her. It is Joffrey who lets her speak and then promises mercy.

Of course in the next chapter that has Joffrey, you see he doesn't mean it at all. And then he's a complete asshole to Sansa, making her get out of bed while she is in grief, having Meryn Trant hit her across the face, making her see Ned's head on a pike. But for a second there, Joffrey was more complex and I think Martin wanted a sense of whiplash there.

Nicely done work.

[flere-imsaho]

Good points, Imran.

Unsuitable people becoming kings was, of course, a standard thing in the Middle Ages, and Martin provides plenty of examples in Westeros, with Joffrey being one of the more obvious ones.

To me, it makes Tywin's conversation with Tommen (in the show) at Joffrey's casket really brilliant. In getting Tommen to really think about what's important as a king, it's also pointed out how really rare a "good" king would be.

[flere-imsaho]

I don't know if you've all seen, but apparently there's an interview with Martin out there where he says that some fans have already deduced the ending. Of course, given that there are so many fans this is sort of a "million monkeys with typewriters eventually produce the works of Shakespeare" thing, but still.

[Barkeep49]

I've really enjoyed your thoughts as you read ISiddiqui, just don't have much to add of value in response but like that you'll continue to post them.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I'm just going to keep talking about some of the stuff I see while reading, even if no one cares... mostly because I love this world Martin has created (and somewhat to see myself talk ).

Anyways, the portrayal of Joffrey I find interesting. Joffrey is, of course, an evil little shit. But that isn't totally obvious early on in Game of Thrones. I mean, yes, he is an arrogant tool (esp towards Robb and Jon while fighting with wooden swords at Winterfell), but in his interactions with Sansa, he seemingly has a deeper kindness. Of course its all told from Sansa's view, but still, he seems to genuinely care for her, while being arrogant and petty. The bad sides are obvious, in dealing with Robb and Jon at Winterfell and Arya and the other kid on the way to King's Landing. But at some points he almost seems like that bad guy who turns good - kind of like the role Jaime has undertaken.

Even right before Ned dies, it seems like perhaps that exists. When Sansa goes to the counsel pleading for mercy for Ned, Cersei and the rest of the small council chastises her. It is Joffrey who lets her speak and then promises mercy.

Of course in the next chapter that has Joffrey, you see he doesn't mean it at all. And then he's a complete asshole to Sansa, making her get out of bed while she is in grief, having Meryn Trant hit her across the face, making her see Ned's head on a pike. But for a second there, Joffrey was more complex and I think Martin wanted a sense of whiplash there.

Nicely done work.

You allude to it, but I think a lot of that was really due to the POV's that we were seeing Joffrey through and how those changed based on his actions.

It does really show off the interesting bits of that style of writing though.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Unsuitable people becoming kings was, of course, a standard thing in the Middle Ages, and Martin provides plenty of examples in Westeros, with Joffrey being one of the more obvious ones.

Indeed. One of things that I find VERY interesting is in reading the Dunk and Egg novellas. Egg, who becomes Aegon V, learns a lot of good lessons from Duncan the Tall. And you think, if you read just those novellas, that Egg will use those lessons when he comes Aegon V the Unlikely (due to his older brother dying and then the next in line, Aemon, who was already a maester , taking the black).

However, if you actually read through some of the stuff on wikis for A Song of Ice and Fire, probably pieced through from small things in the novels themselves, you'll find that Aegon V was a HORRIBLE king! He set up his kids in political marriages and then decided to let them all marry for love (setting up a lot of angry lords) and then after getting the entire Kingdom mad at him, he basically secludes himself at Summerhall trying to hatch a dragon and manages to kill himself and Duncan the Tall as well as his oldest son (named Duncan).

Of course that ends up leading to Jaeherys becoming King... who is the father to Aerys II.

Anyways, was thinking about this again when I just read when Maester Aemon tells Jon that he knows exactly what Jon is going through. And this time I noticed a tinge of regret in his voice, whereas before I didn't. As if Aemon knew that he could have spared the Kingdom and his blood a lot of pain if he became King rather than staying a Maester and then taking the Black (or if he remained a Maester in King's Landing, could have informed his younger brother Aemon that he's messing up).

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

I've really enjoyed your thoughts as you read ISiddiqui, just don't have much to add of value in response but like that you'll continue to post them.

Thanks! I plan on re-reading the rest in turn as well and I'll continue doing this. Discussing my thoughts, either out loud or in writing, tends to allow me to think through them, so it's been fun for me.

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

You allude to it, but I think a lot of that was really due to the POV's that we were seeing Joffrey through and how those changed based on his actions.

It does really show off the interesting bits of that style of writing though.

Oh, indeed. But I think that was Martin's plan. Because of the POVs and how they were used, we are to think better of Joffrey than he deserves, and we are to think more highly of Robb than we may if we were in Robb's head and knew his doubts and whatnot.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Indeed. One of things that I find VERY interesting is in reading the Dunk and Egg novellas. Egg, who becomes Aegon V, learns a lot of good lessons from Duncan the Tall. And you think, if you read just those novellas, that Egg will use those lessons when he comes Aegon V the Unlikely (due to his older brother dying and then the next in line, Aemon, who was already a maester , taking the black).

However, if you actually read through some of the stuff on wikis for A Song of Ice and Fire, probably pieced through from small things in the novels themselves, you'll find that Aegon V was a HORRIBLE king! He set up his kids in political marriages and then decided to let them all marry for love (setting up a lot of angry lords) and then after getting the entire Kingdom mad at him, he basically secludes himself at Summerhall trying to hatch a dragon and manages to kill himself and Duncan the Tall as well as his oldest son (named Duncan).

Of course that ends up leading to Jaeherys becoming King... who is the father to Aerys II.

Anyways, was thinking about this again when I just read when Maester Aemon tells Jon that he knows exactly what Jon is going through. And this time I noticed a tinge of regret in his voice, whereas before I didn't. As if Aemon knew that he could have spared the Kingdom and his blood a lot of pain if he became King rather than staying a Maester and then taking the Black (or if he remained a Maester in King's Landing, could have informed his younger brother Aemon that he's messing up).



Thanks! I plan on re-reading the rest in turn as well and I'll continue doing this. Discussing my thoughts, either out loud or in writing, tends to allow me to think through them, so it's been fun for me.



Oh, indeed. But I think that was Martin's plan. Because of the POVs and how they were used, we are to think better of Joffrey than he deserves, and we are to think more highly of Robb than we may if we were in Robb's head and knew his doubts and whatnot.

Absolutely. And I think that's why so many people sympathize so much with Robb even moreso in reading the books the first time then in the TV show, because you get basically a 100% "good guy" vibe from him (even his refusing to marry the Frey is presented in such a way that you can go "oh those kids and their 'love' marriages". Would absolutely be different if we saw more from inside his head, or hell, even from his inner-circle.

[ISiddiqui]

Though I think the show fucked up by going the Talisa route. Jeyne Westerling indicated that Robb was basically tramping up and down the West, destroying Lannister bannermen at will.

And you have the questions of whether the Westerlings played this up when they realized Robb had eyes for their Jeyne.

Talisa is some random nurse who claims Essos aristocratic blood and people believe her? Meh.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Though I think the show fucked up by going the Talisa route. Jeyne Westerling indicated that Robb was basically tramping up and down the West, destroying Lannister bannermen at will.

And you have the questions of whether the Westerlings played this up when they realized Robb had eyes for their Jeyne.

Talisa is some random nurse who claims Essos aristocratic blood and people believe her? Meh.

Totally agree.

[flere-imsaho]

But Robb's dead soon thereafter. And the point about Robb's death is just to underline how ill-prepared he is to deal with the real game of thrones (i.e. intrigue). Unless I'm missing something significant about Jeyne.

[ISiddiqui]

Jeyne makes it a more interesting story. It ain't all about the end; how we get there is important in this story too .

[flere-imsaho]

I can't argue with that. After all, I'm the guy who likes Bran's story, so I shouldn't complain.

In addition, we may never read the ending anyway, so we should enjoy the story instead.

[ISiddiqui]

DRAGONS!!

Great ending to a good book. I especially liked (which I had forgotten) how Khal Drogo's bloodriders are all like a woman can't be a khal, WTF you giving us your bride gifts and asking us to follow you for? And then as soon as they pull away the ash from the pyre and see the baby dragons with Dany, they IMMEDIATELY bend down and go "blood of my blood". It's hilarious.

Also forgot about how Mirri Maz Durr wasn't just put to the pyre because she took Dany's kid (well, probably mostly for that), but because "death brings for life" (or something like that). Dany put the dragons' eggs on Drogo and bound Mirri because she expected something like the dragons hatching to happen (Targaryens have tried to hatch dragon eggs before, see Aegon V, so it seems to be in the line ).

[NobodyHere]

George R.R. Martin now has 'a lot more flexibility for killing people'

As if he needed any.

[Edward64]

Pretty cool video on the special effects of GOT.

Further Proof 'Game Of Thrones' Is The Most Spectacular Show On TV

[ISiddiqui]

The Library finally had a digital copy of "A Clash of Kings".

Prologue note - Shireen (I forgot she was revealed so early) has nightmares of "Dragons chasing [her]". And how true those nightmares shall be (either chasing her with Stannis or after Stannis is dead and Shireen is the heir on that line of argument).

[ISiddiqui]

The prologue of Clash of Kings really is the best in the series.. though its more of an opening Chapter than a Prologue... the only think that really makes it a prologue is it is told from the POV of Maester Cressen who dies in it. It's really interesting that we find the "strangler" here and a description of why it has to be in crystal form (what foreshadowing for something done a book and a half in advance). It also tends to showcase Stannis and Selyse for the first time and Selyse seemingly plays a bigger role than I originally thought. At this time, Selyse is pretty nasty and Stannis hasn't been won over to R'hillor. Selyse is just horrible to Cressen, and Stannis has to bring her down a notch or two, but he isn't kind to the Maester - Stannis sees him as old and unable to do the tasks he's supposed to. It's Davos who treats him with kindness.

It also showcases how badass Melisandre is from the beginning, drinking almost an entire cup of strangler wine while giving Cressen a sip and Cressen is the one who instantly dies while Melisandre is unaffected - shows that the Red God gets shit done from the onset.

Tyrion riding into King's Landing is quite amusing as well. Especially Cersei's reaction. Tyrion's discussion with Varys at the inn where Shae is being kept and the underlying unsaid threats that are revealed in Tyrion's mind are highly entertaining (and unable to be replicated in the show, sadly).

[ISiddiqui]

It's amazing how much detail GRRM had created before he even went to writing the books. It may be the most amazingly detailed world creation in fiction. Today I was reading when the Old Bear tells Jon Snow about Maester Aemon's backstory (I think when I first read it, I was more like, c'mon with the exposition, where is the battle). Right in that backstory is the entire background for the Dunk and Egg tales (from after the Blackfyre Rebellion to when Egg was crowned). It's amazing that this early in "Clash of Kings" that we get something that becomes so detailed that happened 120 years before the events of the story - something that really isn't all that relevant (Brynden Rivers becoming the Three Eyed Crow is, but that's tangential to the tale). It's absolutely mindblowing.

Makes me wonder how many years GRRM spent creating this world and the current heraldry and perhaps when we are waiting for a new book, we don't account for all this time he spent before even writing the 1st book. And now, he has to make sure that he doesn't destroy some sort of continuity with all the detail he has constructed.

Also, Tyrion and Varys's scheming, and trying to see how much they can trust each other, is fantastic stuff.

[DaddyTorgo]

I need to put my preorder in on Amazon for "Worlds"

[ISiddiqui]

I'm surprised it's only 336 pages . Though I guess it is textbook size (ie, 8' by 11') and weighs 3.8lbs.

[DaddyTorgo]

Yeah. I sorta wanted to get the ebook version of it, but I want to be able to really enjoy the graphics and maps and such, so I'm going hardcopy.

[ISiddiqui]

Here's the description:

If the past is prologue, then George R. R. Martin’s masterwork—the most inventive and entertaining fantasy saga of our time—warrants one hell of an introduction. At long last, it has arrived with The World of Ice & Fire.

This lavishly illustrated volume is a comprehensive history of the Seven Kingdoms, providing vividly constructed accounts of the epic battles, bitter rivalries, and daring rebellions that lead to the events of A Song of Ice and Fire and HBO’s Game of Thrones. In a collaboration that’s been years in the making, Martin has teamed with Elio M. García, Jr., and Linda Antonsson, the founders of the renowned fan site Westeros.org—perhaps the only people who know this world almost as well as its visionary creator.

Collected here is all the accumulated knowledge, scholarly speculation, and inherited folk tales of maesters and septons, maegi and singers, including

• full-color artwork and maps, with more than 170 original pieces
• full family trees for Houses Stark, Lannister, and Targaryen
• in-depth explorations of the history and culture of Westeros
• 100% all-new material, more than half of which Martin wrote specifically for this book

The definitive companion piece to George R. R. Martin’s dazzlingly conceived universe, The World of Ice & Fire is indeed proof that the pen is mightier than a storm of swords.

Yeah, I think the book version is required here. Also the family trees are a bit difficult to fully follow on ebook (and I hope its more than just Stark, Lannister, and Targaryen - but that may just be the PR blurb).

[NobodyHere]

I think we need a Game of Thrones character draft

[ISiddiqui]

How about a Song of Ice and Fire character draft instead, because I'm totally drafting Baelor Breakspeare or Brynden Rivers in the first few rounds?

[JPhillips]

Oh, yeah? Well I'll draft the Seven-Faced God and call it a day.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

How about a Song of Ice and Fire character draft instead, because I'm totally drafting Baelor Breakspeare or Brynden Rivers in the first few rounds?

YES YES YES - although I'd make it more than a character draft. That way you could include locations too...

[ISiddiqui]

We'd have to draw the line at drafting dragons though .