POTUS 2024 - Harris vs Trump - General Election Discussion

[GrantDawg]

Washington Post reporting that Nancy Pelosi has told House Democrats that she believes that Biden will be convinced to exit the race soon.

[CrimsonFox]

hmmmmm the RNC has been called the "Grindr Superbowl" and got used so much there it crashed the app. Didn't see that coming.

[Lathum]

Seeing reports he is gonna drop out this weekend.

[RainMaker]

If he's going to do it, they should leak it tonight and say "Joe Biden is scheduling a statement from the White House on this date". The speculation alone will overshadow the RNC.

[Passacaglia]

In case anyone is still looking for something anti-Trump from NYT

Donald Trump Is Unfit to Lead https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...-android-share

[Brian Swartz]

Wow. If that actually happens, this is going to get insane.

[Lathum]

Tester has now called for him to drop.

It's over.

[Coffee Warlord]

Sweet jesus Hogan was maximum cringe. Why.

[JPhillips]

A guy just out of jail, a professional wrestler, a porn star, his defense attorney...

It sure isn't the GOP of the nineties.

[Ksyrup]

Local Fox News just said Biden is expected to make a major announcement shortly after the RNC ends - I guess that means tonight? Odd not to get any kind of alert to that effect. Just a matter of fact statement following an interview of one of the reporter's friends who lives in Butler and attended the rally/shooting.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Weird.

My wife is at Newark Airport and said Trumps plane is there

Trying to get Melania there?

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

Sweet jesus Hogan was maximum cringe. Why.

.

Originally Posted by Cuervo on FB

So, tonight at the convention we have Hulk Hogan as a speaker, and Dana White (UFC) is going to be the lead-in to Trump. I guess the new Republican party knows its audience - 14 year-old boys. (Or 50 year-old boys with 14 year-old brains.)

[RainMaker]

It feels like both sides want to lose.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

Sweet jesus Hogan was maximum cringe. Why.

My child is watching the clip for the sheer comedy.
I'm wondering if there's some nation I could buy citizenship to.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Local Fox News just said Biden is expected to make a major announcement shortly after the RNC ends - I guess that means tonight? Odd not to get any kind of alert to that effect. Just a matter of fact statement following an interview of one of the reporter's friends who lives in Butler and attended the rally/shooting.

He’s been getting major negative messages from his allies. Not sure what the announcement will be but would not be surprised if he drops out.

He reminds me of (great) grandpa who insists he can still drive. Okay, maybe not to the same degree but it’s time …

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

My child is watching the clip for the sheer comedy.
I'm wondering if there's some nation I could buy citizenship to.

You can. I've considered it if your boy wins.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Edwards64

He reminds me of (great) grandpa who insists he can still drive. Okay, maybe not to the same degree but it’s time …

It reminds me of a situation where a few relatives say the grandpa can't drive all of a sudden when they were fine with it until recently, even though it's been clear for a while there was a problem.

Or like a trope on some of the West Wing episodes, where they pontificate on wanting to talk to the respondents of a poll who think foreign aid is too high and simultaneously don't want it reduced.

[CrimsonFox]

Another incident of democrats attacking other democrats...
Tenacious D had a concert and they threw Kyle Gass a birthday party on stage with a cake. Jack Black said "make a wish" and Kyle replied "don't miss Trump next time". As a result everyone is attacking Gass. Jack cancelled the rest of the tour.

I mean...who WASN'T thinking that.

[CrimsonFox]

Why don't they just switch the ticket to Harris/Biden. NO one cares about the vp anyway. He can do all the work and have all the naps he wants....altho wait...biden loves making deals. he might not actually cast the deciding vote in congress during the 50/50.

[CrimsonFox]

another hot take....Michelle Obama bows to the pressure and wants to avoid another trumpland and runs as Obama/Harris

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Washington Post reporting that Nancy Pelosi has told House Democrats that she believes that Biden will be convinced to exit the race soon.

gah....why7 do they write articles like this....it just makes Dems look SO BAd

SERIOUSLY STOP writing articles that someone is GOING to do something

[Ghost Econ]

It's weird that the people in the party making the most noise about him dropping out are the ones that are his age. Most of the youngins are either in support of Biden or quiet.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

another hot take....Michelle Obama bows to the pressure and wants to avoid another trumpland and runs as Obama/Harris

This is as far from a hot take as you can get. It’s been discussed at length by the talking heads and right wing conspiracists forever. While it would be great to see their heads explode she’s stated several times she has zero interest.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Ghost Econ

It's weird that the people in the party making the most noise about him dropping out are the ones that are his age. Most of the youngins are either in support of Biden or quiet.

Because they don’t want to run now. They wanna let Trump burn the country then fundraise off it for a 28-32 run.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

… all of a sudden when they were fine with it until recently, even though it's been clear for a while there was a problem.

Hindsight is 20-20, most conceded there was some decline, but how much? And then all of a sudden there was Adm Stockdale moment. The debate did matter (this time) after all.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

It reminds me of a situation where a few relatives say the grandpa can't drive all of a sudden when they were fine with it until recently, even though it's been clear for a while there was a problem.

Or like a trope on some of the West Wing episodes, where they pontificate on wanting to talk to the respondents of a poll who think foreign aid is too high and simultaneously don't want it reduced.

Watch this from 3.5 years ago and tell me you can't see a difference. At this age, things can change gradually sometimes, and then others times there can be major jarring jumps. The fact that he seems to have been shielded from people a good bit the last year seems to suggest a little of both.

This was President Biden just 3.5 years ago.

When I posted this in my IG stories three weeks ago I even had former Biden and Obama staffers direct messaging me in shock at the difference. pic.twitter.com/kJE1qXlOQy

— Yashar Ali 🐘 (@yashar) July 18, 2024

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It feels like both sides want to lose.

Tonight has been a journey for us all pic.twitter.com/RadtqcWtWm

— David Folkenflik (@davidfolkenflik) July 19, 2024

[Lathum]

I didn't watch the speech but Trump definitely will not be able to maintain boring unity speeches. His base will demand red meat and if it is one thing he is good at it is reading the room and giving the base what they want.

[GrantDawg]

Fine, they have Hulk Hogan, but wait til Lin-Manuel Miranda rips off his beret at the DNC

— Tommy Vietor (@TVietor08) July 19, 2024

[JPhillips]

Why is Trump obsessed with Hannibal Lecter?

[cartman]

It seems after last night that Mike Judge was way too conservative with his Idiocracy timeline

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Edward64

He’s been getting major negative messages from his allies. Not sure what the announcement will be but would not be surprised if he drops out.

He reminds me of (great) grandpa who insists he can still drive. Okay, maybe not to the same degree but it’s time …

It's so strange. No announcement of any kind happened. The way it was an after-thought news item (from a local Fox affiliate during the 10pm news) combined with the lack of other "breaking news" alerts made me think it wasn't real. I have no idea what they were talking about. Maybe that was part of a previous news item that wasn't verified and they never took off the teleprompter?

[PilotMan]

So the announcement this morning appears to be that Biden is going campaigning.

Whoopie.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Hindsight is 20-20, most conceded there was some decline, but how much? And then all of a sudden there was Adm Stockdale moment. The debate did matter (this time) after all.

I don't think it was an Adm Stockdale moment, but in terms of how much, a majority of Americans and a third of Democrats were saying he would have 'severe' problems handling the responsibilities of a second term at least as far back as last fall, consistently. I do not buy for a second the 'oh, we didn't know it was like this' stuff. People knew.

This is not about Biden's incapacity or whatever. This is about not thinking he can win. It's a 'Hail Mary' to try to fix that which I hope doesn't blow up but I think it has a very sizable chance of doing so if Biden does in fact drop out (I don't care how many people think that's foregone, I'll believe it when I see it). It doesn't appear there was a major shift in polling after the debate. The states that Trump is ahead in now, he was ahead in before in almost all cases.

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Watch this from 3.5 years ago and tell me you can't see a difference.

There's definitely a difference from 2020. A difference that was mostly well-known, and people still overwhelmingly chose him in the primary being well aware of it.

[GrantDawg]

"There's definitely a difference from 2020. A difference that was mostly well-known, and people still overwhelmingly chose him in the primary being well aware of it."

No they weren't because most people don't pay that much attention. Most people probably still thought Biden was the 2020 version until he ambled on to that debate stage. And they chose him without being given a legitimate choice. There wasn't a competitive primary, and he did almost no campaigning.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

[GrantDawg]

While Biden's campaign workers still seem defiant, two more Senators and half a dozen new House members call for him step aside.

[Brian Swartz]

It's the same thing though? Again, there was a sizable amount of concern about his ability to do the job going back well into last year (and I'm being conservative here). People had the opportunity to demand another candidate. I think you're basically right on people not paying that much attention, that's just voters in general, but that's part of the point; you get the government you deserve. Don't care enough to be informed? Tough tiddlywinks, you get the results of that apathy. I have no sympathy for anyone who thought Biden 2024 would be Biden 2020. There weren't *that* many people who watched the debate, and frankly anyone who takes that approach is just being idiotic, full stop. Even if you hadn't seen Biden do anything in the previous four years, the idea that someone would not be as capable at 81 as they are at 77 is a 'sun rises in the east' level observation.

Just take the poll results mentioned earlier. A third of Democrats expected him to have severe problems. They chose not to make a serious effort to nominate someone else or convince Biden not to run, right up until the point where it looked like he probably wouldn't win. This is even assuming that indepedents are completely irrelevant, which they aren't. There's no getting around that.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

It's the same thing though? Again, there was a sizable amount of concern about his ability to do the job going back well into last year (and I'm being conservative here). People had the opportunity to demand another candidate. I think you're basically right on people not paying that much attention, that's just voters in general, but that's part of the point; you get the government you deserve. Don't care enough to be informed? Tough tiddlywinks, you get the results of that apathy.

There was a sizable amount of people (including me) that was concerned about his age 4 years ago. Almost as many people vote against him in that primary than voted for him. They fell in line when he became the candidate largely because he was better than Trump, and by his own words he was just a "placeholder for the next generation." There was general disappointment when he choose to run again, but his people and party leadership shut down any attempt at an opposing primary run because, as JPhillips has said many times, "a primary challenge to an incumbent makes him look weak and the incumbent tends to lose." Because of that, the public got a limited exposure to the president, a very choreographed and selective view of him. To pretend that this was some well thought out choice and not something the voters where back into is disingenuous.

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Even if you hadn't seen Biden do anything in the previous four years, the idea that someone would not be as capable at 81 as they are at 77 is a 'sun rises in the east' level observation.

There are scales to anything. I service a man who is 94 years old. Still drives, still lives at home. He jogs daily. He is still very sharp and spry, heck better than many people half his age. I see him regularly, can I say he is as sharp as he was 5 years ago when I first met him? Idk. He probably isn't, but I couldn't give you a quantifiable answer. How people age and when they fall off is a person by person determination.

Most people would have said pre-debate he probably wasn't as sharp as he was 4 years ago. But the idea that people that have very limited view of him outside of what the White House wanted you to see would be able to make a definitive determination about his capabilities is in your words "idiotic."

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Just take the poll results mentioned earlier. A third of Democrats expected him to have severe problems. They chose not to make a serious effort to nominate someone else or convince Biden not to run, right up until the point where it looked like he probably wouldn't win. This is even assuming that indepedents are completely irrelevant, which they aren't. There's no getting around that.

More than a third of Democrats didn't vote for him the primaries 4 years ago. The people that makes these type of decisions are not the rank and file. I have no problem castigating the Democratic leadership for this failure and allowing this situation to happen, but blaming the average voter who has their own lives to deal with for it is preposterous.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

There's definitely a difference from 2020. A difference that was mostly well-known, and people still overwhelmingly chose him in the primary being well aware of it.

That wasn't a real primary, come on.

[Brian Swartz]

It wasn't a real primary because almost nobody wanted one. If a real primary was demanded, it would have happened.

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I have no problem castigating the Democratic leadership for this failure and allowing this situation to happen, but blaming the average voter who has their own lives to deal with for it is preposterous.

That's exactly backwards. I think blaming the Democratic leadership is what is preposterous. The 'having their own lives to deal with' bit ... I mean, voting citizenship is a responsibility. Government by the people, at a basic level, requires citizens who inform themselves and handle their lives at the same time. This degree of going out of our way to make excuses for the people who have the power is just an exercise in gross blame-shifting IMO. This isn't disingenuous, as you falsely alleged. It's a basic fact.

Party leadership cannot stop a candidate who the people want from being nominated. They can tip the scales in the case it being fairly even, but that's it.

[GrantDawg]

The rules to who gets on a ballot, how they get on a ballot, and the attention they get is in leaderships hands.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

There's definitely a difference from 2020. A difference that was mostly well-known, and people still overwhelmingly chose him in the primary being well aware of it.

In most cases, candidates have to make an appeal to voters to be available to be "chosen." Voters are mostly passive creatures who choose among the available options. It's more accurate to state that, whether it was Biden or the DNC or other party elderstatesmen/women, no one who was on a list of potential candidates made any kind of serious move to challenge him. And that's what it would have been - a challenge.

Seems stupid in hindsight, but to point to the primary as if voters are moving the chess pieces and politicans are just the pawns is a ridiculous take. They voted for Biden because the party - either forced by Biden or its own complicity - made clear he was going to be the nominee.

[Brian Swartz]

Think about what's being said here.

We need to defeat Trump to save democracy. Also, no of course people don't have the power to choose their own nominees, why would that be a thing? They just have to meekly do what the party tells them to.

At what point does the cognitive dissonance of all this not make one's head explode? Or is this 'democracy' that we are trying to save an Orwellian system that is Of the Party, By the Party, and For the Party?

Originally Posted by KSyrup

to point to the primary as if voters are moving the chess pieces and politicans are just the pawns is a ridiculous take. They voted for Biden because the party - either forced by Biden or its own complicity - made clear he was going to be the nominee.

Politicians aren't pawns, but if the people demand other options they will get them. The party absolutely cannot make clear who is going to be the nominee. The only way they get away with that is if people tolerate it. If they want another option, politicians will step up and give it to them.

Any of the elected Democrats now saying Biden should step down could have called for a different candidate. People could have lobbied their representatives at any level. They could have urged their own senators/governors to run. They could have done any number of things that they chose not to do. They aren't just helpless bystanders in this process, they have the power. When you choose not to exercise it, that's not the fault of the party who you delegated that authority to of your own free will. It's the fault of the electorate, period.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Any of the elected Democrats now saying Biden should step down could have called for a different candidate. People could have lobbied their representatives at any level. They could have urged their own senators/governors to run. They could have done any number of things that they chose not to do. They aren't just helpless bystanders in this process, they have the power. When you choose not to exercise it, that's not the fault of the party who you delegated that authority to of your own free will. It's the fault of the electorate, period.

People did once they knew there was a problem. The idea we all were personally interviewing the president daily and assessing his mental acuity is again ridiculous.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Watch this from 3.5 years ago and tell me you can't see a difference.

It also takes a lot longer for him to gingerly creep up the stairs on Air Force One (while clamping on to the hand rail for dear life) than it did 4 years ago. And he's totally abandoned that awkward jog he used to break into for a few paces to show everyone how vigorous he still was while he was shuffling along.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

While Biden's campaign workers still seem defiant, two more Senators and half a dozen new House members call for him step aside.

The writing is on the wall. It's essentially a vote of no confidence by your followers. The more that voice, the worse it will be when he greedily stays in.

[JPhillips]

Vance's plan to give parents extra votes for each kid is unworkable and dumb, so perfect for today's GOP.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Vance's plan to give parents extra votes for each kid is unworkable and dumb, so perfect for today's GOP.

It's a superficial issue to get people angry. So yeah, perfect for the Fox News crowd. They have no interest in a deep dive into why many younger people today are choosing to be child free.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

The writing is on the wall. It's essentially a vote of no confidence by your followers. The more that voice, the worse it will be when he greedily stays in.

We need a Padmé

Someone put a mic in front of Natalie Portman and have her call for a vote of nonconfidence