02-12-2020, 03:51 PM | #1651 | |
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Explain the Nevada debacle last year if it wasn't about a preference toward a candidate? Why can they suddenly not figure out who won a caucus that's been taking place for hundreds of years? You can read for yourself what they thought of Bernie and what they did within the DNC. The e-mail database is right here. Some highlights from those e-mails here. Are you really arguing that there is nothing behind the scenes of the DNC to keep Bernie down? |
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02-12-2020, 03:58 PM | #1652 |
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Bernie posts his tax plan on his site in the open. You can plug in your numbers and see if you'd be paying more or less.
Bernie's tax plan I get if people don't want it but playing dumb like you can't figure out a marginal tax rate seems disingenuous. |
02-12-2020, 04:08 PM | #1653 | |
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I just don't understand how it's possible to be a non-Bernie Democrat if you think the party is rigging everything. Even though I disagree with them, I kind of understand the Bernie supporters wanting to burn everything down (including perhaps Milwaukee at the convention) considering what they believe about what the party has done. I mean, that level of corruption is bigger than anything you correctly accuse the Republicans of doing. Last edited by molson : 02-12-2020 at 04:09 PM. |
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02-12-2020, 04:12 PM | #1654 | |
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Maybe what you said is the reason why Democrats get their ass kicked all the time. |
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02-12-2020, 04:16 PM | #1655 | |
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Right. If you do believe this craziness then you should be railing against the Democratic Party night and day and be angry Sanders is running for the Democratic nomination instead of running third party.
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02-12-2020, 04:23 PM | #1656 |
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You can't win as a third party in this country. The two parties have rigged it so.
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02-12-2020, 04:26 PM | #1657 |
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Well apparently you think you can't win in the Democratic Party either so what's the difference?
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02-12-2020, 04:31 PM | #1658 |
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02-12-2020, 04:34 PM | #1659 |
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Remember how the Democrats changed the rules specifically for Mike Bloomberg the other day? A guy who endorsed W and was the keynote speaker at the Republican Convention in 2004.
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02-12-2020, 04:41 PM | #1660 | ||
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This is just ridiculous bullshit. Pete gave money to a tech company for text messaging outreach (4th place Biden did as well). If anything, the app's failure hurt Pete since he didn't get the normal election night declaration of victory and damaged the reputation of the normally important caucus that he just won. Quote:
Caucuses work differently and they've traditionally announced the winner of the delegates rather than the winner of the popular vote. If you go back and look at past caucus results, popular vote totals aren't listed.
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02-12-2020, 04:43 PM | #1661 | |
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The guy is literally 3rd in national polling right now. He has just crossed Warren. Him not being on the debate stage with that support is ridiculous.
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02-12-2020, 04:44 PM | #1662 | |
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That much is true, and I can't stand Buttigieg. Delaying Iowa results blunted his numbers. Buttigieg has an argument that he may have done even better in New Hampshire if Iowa hadn't fucked up so badly.
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02-12-2020, 04:51 PM | #1663 | |
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If you could come up with a "60-70% Bernie", I might prefer him. He just goes too far and is just too anti-business across the board. |
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02-12-2020, 04:53 PM | #1664 | |
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And there were reports that some candidates had complained to the DNC, including Warren, because they weren't able to fight back against Bloomberg if he wasn't in the debates.
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02-12-2020, 04:56 PM | #1665 | |
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You basically just described Joe Biden (I guess Amy Klobuchar as well).
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02-12-2020, 05:34 PM | #1666 | |
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Yep. Its really frustrating. So are the Trumper-like social media brigades against anyone who says anything they don't like about Bernie. With Warren flailing I'm ready to jump in to Bernie's camp but its not a 100% comfortable jump. |
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02-12-2020, 06:12 PM | #1667 | |
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He didn't win. |
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02-12-2020, 06:22 PM | #1668 | |
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Perez is the idiot who said we will never change the rules. Then did so the minute he got a check. Remember that Bloomberg isn't even on the fucking ballot in Nevada which this debate is for. |
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02-12-2020, 06:24 PM | #1669 | |
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02-12-2020, 07:23 PM | #1670 |
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Yes he did. The popular vote has never mattered in the Iowa caucus system. You can argue that's a dumb system (I'd agree), but it's what's been in place for a long time, well before Bernie ran for President. In fact, Bernie likes the caucus system, since he did better in those in 2016.
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02-12-2020, 08:12 PM | #1671 | |||
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The Iowa Caucus was riddled with inconsistencies and errors. Quote:
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But at least they can go back and correct all those errors. Wait, no they can't.
I'll say the guy who had the most people who wanted him to win is the winner. Not some imbeciles who can't do basic math and apparently can't correct those errors when smarter people tell them how. |
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02-12-2020, 08:17 PM | #1672 |
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Given the tax savings they get, they kind of are. I don't want to start this debate again - but if my company dropped health coverage tomorrow - there is a 0% chance I would a raise to match that benefit. At best, i would get a raise to match 30% of it and then be out 70% and have to pay for the government coverage (which would be worse). I've talked to our finance and HR people in planning about this. It's no big deal to them - either they pay the full benefit (and get the massive writeoff) or they give the employees 25-30% (if even that) and have no writeoff. They would prefer the current system as it would cost about the same and they could assure their people have good health care - but it's not a big deal financially either way.
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02-12-2020, 08:26 PM | #1673 | |
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Here’s some info:
Reasons to Purchase Group Coverage | Health Coverage Guide by Small Business Majority Quote:
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02-12-2020, 08:32 PM | #1674 | |
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Salary is a write-off just like health insurance premiums. Your finance guy should take a Freshman level accounting course. Your salary wouldn't increase at a 1:1 because premiums are pre-tax deductions, but it would go up a considerable amount. Health insurance is considered part of compensation by every major company in the world. If it wasn't, as you suggest, why in the world would they offer it to employees? Out of the goodness of their heart? And maybe your company wouldn't raise your salary, but a competitor would to poach talent. |
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02-12-2020, 08:34 PM | #1675 | |
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Salaries are also business expenses so I'm not seeing your point. Also, I thought I had good health insurance up until the point my special needs son was diagnosed. It's been a constant fight getting anything covered ever since. I was just fighting with a claim rep today... apparently the tonsillectomy he was recommended is an elective procedure. They're fucking scum. |
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02-12-2020, 08:34 PM | #1676 | |
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You know what else is "100% tax-deductible as ordinary business expenses, on both state and federal income taxes"? Employee salaries. |
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02-12-2020, 09:00 PM | #1677 |
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Just an example. Let's say you make $50,000 in your job. The company also covers $5,000 a year in health insurance premiums. They are paying $55,000 to keep you employed.
If you went to them and said I no longer need insurance, I would like a raise of $5,000 a year, why would they say no? They would be paying you the same amount of money minus the health insurance paperwork. |
02-12-2020, 09:59 PM | #1678 |
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I think there is some truth to both sides here. Yes, health care is part of your current compensation and should be considered as such, but any suggestion that the government would side with the individual over corporations, and make sure that void gets filled in your favor, should M4A come to pass in the future, sure seems like wishful thinking to me.
The suggestion that some companies would be willing and able to match your previous level of total compensation in order to keep and/or poach talent certainly rings true, I just hesitate to believe that our government would put forth a solution which put the burden on corporations rather than one that puts the burden on individuals, even if we get a progressive in the White House.
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Last edited by thesloppy : Today at 05:35 PM. |
02-13-2020, 07:32 AM | #1679 | ||
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Doesn't your video contradict what you said? They are going to fix them, but they have to go through an official recount process because the campaigns (including Bernie's) signed off on them. Quote:
Was Hillary the winner in the 2016 general election? The nomination is a battle for delegates, so the person who gets most delegates is the winner. And as I said, the popular vote has never once mattered in the Iowa caucuses. But this is all a distraction from my point. Networks have reported Pete as the winner. Without the app failure, Pete would've been reported the winner on election night. So the app failure hurt him instead of helping him.
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02-13-2020, 09:32 AM | #1680 | |
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For the last few decades economists have been saying the system of employer funded health insurance, bolstered by tax writeoffs, is a bad system. For one it hides the true cost of insurance from individuals. Two, it hinders employee mobility - tying them to jobs that may not be as good (in terms of advancement) for the health benefits. I doubt employers would increase salaries to cover the full amount of health care initially, but it would make things far more transparent in terms of compensation. In the long run it would make things far more clear and companies would compete more on salary than on salary & health care.
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02-13-2020, 10:31 AM | #1681 | |
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Instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water, why not keep employer-subsidized coverage and use tax subsidies to incentivize companies to cover people not covered by their employer. Right now, Medicare costs amount to 15% of the entire Gov't Budget (with 46% of that cost coming from the general fund) and it only covers around 18% of the population. If we suddenly changed to 100% covered - they expense would be catastrophic. We would need massive tax increases and the coverage would drop significantly for most people on Employer care. I just don't understand the logic in increasing the cost (and decreasing the coverage) for half the country that currently had employer-subsidized health care. Plus, there is no proof that going to M4A will result in decreased medical costs and you are making a big gamble that it will. once the cat is out of the bag and employers no longer provide health insurance, it would be very difficult to roll all that back if it becomes a financial disaster. |
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02-13-2020, 10:49 AM | #1682 |
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I'm sure there's no chance of M4A passing Congress any time soon, but I'm equally sure that if it were able to pass, a stick or carrot to businesses could also be passed to shift that insurance money to salary.
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02-13-2020, 11:22 AM | #1683 | |
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Healthcare is part of total compensation and also subsidized by the company, I don't see it as either or. I don't know if M4A is the right answer but do want a robust Public Option at the very least. Healthcare should be more like how pensions evolved into 401k/IRA, it should be more portable. Obamacare is not perfect and do think more things can be done. More needs to be done reforming the Payer, Provider and Pharma industries. All 3 industries are bloated with inefficiencies and (my wording) arrogance. Start with transparency, easy reference charts on how much a procedure will cost me (or estimated cost/range) with a Dr. or Provider. When I go to the optometrist or dentist, they can tell me how much their services will cost me out of pocket. When I go to a hospital or clinic, they say "we don't know right now, we will bill you whatever insurance does not cover" ... I've said it before - what other services do you buy that cannot provide you with some (estimated) cost to you when you wish to buy something? I will say that our expectations need to be managed also. I've read that there is a ton of money that goes into extending end-of-life by X months. Heck with that, at a certain age ... manage my pain, find a way to make me comfortable, but I do not want extraordinary measures taken at the cost to taxpayers. I rather those funds go to other things. I'll let the medical ethics folks come up with the guidelines. Bottom line goal should be - baseline affordable & average medical care should be available & portable to everyone; additional private insurance should be available; I should not have to worry about going bankrupt because of unexpected medical conditions (And to get our government to do this, take away their government healthcare, including retirement, and have them go through similar company subsidized healthcare in the open market) Last edited by Edward64 : 02-13-2020 at 11:26 AM. |
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02-13-2020, 11:45 AM | #1684 | |
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Right. One of the problems with the compromises made with the ACA is that people are still subject to private insurance - which may have large deductibles or cost sharing. Not to mention that insurance companies have an incentive in denying procedures even when your doctor says it is necessary. There has been a controversy lately in the news that Anthem Blue Cross & Blue Shield has started to introduce something called "true emergency" - meaning that if you go to the ER if Anthem doesn't think it was a true emergency, it won't cover any of it. So some people were told to go to the ER by Urgent Care or their Doctors were denied because Anthem didn't think it was a true emergency. They seem to have backed down a little bit because they got sued, but this sort of stuff is what we have to deal with when private insurance is in the mix.
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02-13-2020, 12:01 PM | #1685 | |
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The good news is that this already happens. I work for the government and get my healthcare through them as my employer. I pick a plan from among those offered by various insurance companies and pay monthly for it, and my employer pays some of the costs. That my employer happens to be the government is neither here nor there. It is the exact same setup I had when I worked in the private sector. Last edited by albionmoonlight : 02-13-2020 at 12:02 PM. |
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02-13-2020, 12:06 PM | #1686 |
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02-13-2020, 01:46 PM | #1687 | ||
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Thanks for the clarification. I looked it up and was wrong. Re: the last paragraph on retiree health benefits, do you know if the retiree premiums are comparable to the private sector buying on Obamacare or is it subsidized by the government? Here is where the U.S. Congress buys its health insurance - Marketplace Quote:
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02-13-2020, 01:54 PM | #1688 | |
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02-13-2020, 03:27 PM | #1689 | |
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I don't know about retiree premiums. Still a couple decades before I need to think about that :-) |
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02-13-2020, 08:49 PM | #1690 | ||
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So if employees are too dumb to see the cost of insurance, why offer it at all? Seems a lot cheaper for a company to not offer health insurance and give their employees a few bucks more in their paycheck like you say. They won't know the difference. In reality, salaries are dependent on market pay rates. If you and your employer feel you are worth $112,535 in compensation, that's what you're worth. If they decide that you are now worth $103,000 in compensation, you wouldn't just accept it. Neither would competitors for labor in your field. Compensation is part of a market. You don't just magically wipe out a side of that equation and keep going. Everything adjusts. Quote:
Because the system sucks. Why is our health insurance tied into a company we work for? And because we can look at the rest of the world who do things at a fraction of the cost we do and get better results. Tax increases would be offset by the savings you get from your health insurance premiums. A 4% tax (which was proposed) is not going to be more than the $12,535 you'd be getting back until you make well over $300k a year. But you don't believe in how market economies operate so I don't think we'd come to the same conclusion. |
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02-13-2020, 08:54 PM | #1691 | |
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IIRC Premiums stay the same as a retiree (with the exception of a couple branches of government workers). To qualify for insurance as a retiree you have to keep an insurance plan (not necessarily the same one) for the 5 years prior to your retirement. |
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02-14-2020, 10:50 AM | #1692 | ||
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France (65 mil), Italy (60 mil), Netherlands (17 mil) and Norway (5.5 mil) The US has over 330 million people with much more diversity and coverage hurdles than those smaller countries. Plus, many of those countries have issues with wait times and massive tax rates. There is no country with over 130 million people near us on the World ranking. The closest is Mexico (not exactly a health care beacon). China, India, Indonesia, Pakistan, Brazil and Russia are abysmal. It's a stretch to think a system that works for the 37 million people in Canada will translate to the US and it's 330 million without massive issues. Quote:
Just think about it logically. If a factory worker makes 50K a year at my plant (they have access to the same health plan I do). Do you really think we would give him a 25% raise if health care was covered by the government? come on. |
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02-14-2020, 11:04 AM | #1693 |
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So there is this very, very strange knee jerk reaction on social media that Bloomberg is basically the same as Trump. It's one of the most baffling things I've seen. Bloomberg definitely has some sexism and racism in his closet, but its on order of magnitude less than Trump. Not to mention Bloomberg has been for gun control and taking on climate change for YEARS. In addition to a pathway to citizenship and increasing health coverage. Just because he's rich, he's basically Trump, wtf?!
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02-14-2020, 11:07 AM | #1694 |
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Mexico is exactly that, for OUR health care in particular. Millions of Americans Flood Into Mexico for Health Care https://psmag.com/economics/medical-...ming-in-mexico https://fortune.com/2018/10/31/utah-...o-drug-prices/ Many Americans Going To Mexico For Health Care | KPBS
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Last edited by thesloppy : Today at 05:35 PM. Last edited by thesloppy : 02-14-2020 at 11:10 AM. |
02-14-2020, 11:10 AM | #1695 | |
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Other countries spend a lot less per capita, but none of the Dem candidates are proposing this, even the, "let's just be Finland, it's easy!" guy. It's apparently not feasible in the U.S. Mayor Pete's plan is the only one that the CRFB projects would reduce the federal deficient - though it would also increase spending and we'd still be way ahead of other countries on per capita spending. Last edited by molson : 02-14-2020 at 11:11 AM. |
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02-14-2020, 11:15 AM | #1696 | |
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Yeah, people go to Mexico for cheap drugs and inexpensive minor dental work. But it's not like people are going to Mexico for Cancer treatment. There are also a ton of botched procedures (esp in plastic surgery) and no malpractice insurance (one of the reasons it is so cheap). It's a bit like the wild west down there, but it's not a bad option for a crown or buying antibiotics in bulk (some will be duds, so it's better to go quantity over quality). Still, it's not like people are going there for heart surgery, ACL surgery or more complicated illnesses. Saying people are going there for "health care" is akin to saying people go to McDonalds for a "gourmet dinner". Last edited by Arles : 02-14-2020 at 11:17 AM. |
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02-14-2020, 11:16 AM | #1697 | |
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IIRC, Sanders is proposing this, but in his vague way.
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02-14-2020, 11:17 AM | #1698 | |
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02-14-2020, 11:21 AM | #1699 |
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My real life Bernie supporters aren't saying anything close to the same things, FWIW.
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02-14-2020, 11:23 AM | #1700 |
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The CRFB projected Sanders' plan would add 13.4 trillion to the deficit. Nobody knows for sure I guess, but that's a pretty big difference (and more than double even what they project for Warren). One of the many things I don't quite understand about Sanders is how is vision depends on the perpetual existence of billionaires to tax. Nobody creates taxable wealth like the super-rich, and that can be a great asset for the country. That'd be great for teachers and other public servants to make more money, but, they don't create more capital like can be done in business and finance. But he also thinks billionaires make and retain too much money. So what happens after the rich are knocked down a few pegs and/or killed and ritually eaten by Bernie Bros? Last edited by molson : 02-14-2020 at 11:26 AM. |
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