The Trump Presidency – 2016

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by tarcone

State last voted republican in a presidential election in 1988. Both senators and the states house is democrat. I wouldnt say Washington is a republican state

I'm not saying it's a republican state. It leans heavily democrat as a whole, but if you were to remove the Seattle/Tacoma Metro areas the rest of the state is probably majority republican.

I currently live in an upper-middle class millennial and young money suburb of Tacoma. It's probably 70% democrat. The town 2 streets over from me is an older community that probably swings just as far toward the GOP. Get outside of this area and you hit a lot of rural farmland that is heavily GOP.

[Edward64]

Somewhat counter-intuitive. Interesting read though.

Hispanics Rally to Trump, Boosting His 2020 Chances | RealClearPolitics

So much good news erupted last week for the president with the conclusion of the Mueller inquiry that stunning new polling data was largely glossed over. McLaughlin & Associates revealed that Hispanic approval for Trump in March jumped to 50%. This number matched the January Marist/NPR/PBS survey that shocked cynics with its own 50% approval finding. Even if those polls are too aggressive, February’s Morning Consult/Politico poll showed Trump’s Hispanic approval vaulting to a still-impressive 45%.

What explains this stunning trend? I see three key factors:

The Economy – Hispanics neither desire nor expect a laundry list of deliverables from government, but rather seek the conditions to advance and prosper independently. As the most statistically entrepreneurial demographic in America, Hispanics have thrived amid the Trump boom as regulatory and tax relief unleashes a small business surge. Every American benefits from this new dynamism, but Hispanics most of all. For example, the Hispanic jobless rate has now been below 5% for the last 11 months; prior to the Trump presidency, it had only been below 5% for one month ever (in 2006).
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Immigration – Leftist politicians and their media allies wrongly assume that Hispanics espouse softness on immigration illegality. In reality, a 2018 YouGov/Economist poll detailed that only 20% of Hispanics support the practice of “catch and release” of families crossing our border illegally. Indeed, Hispanic Americans often suffer the worst, most immediate consequences of porous borders. Too often, Hispanic workers must compete against unfair, illegal labor.
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Social Issues – As the Democratic Party lurches left on social issues, the largely Catholic and Evangelical Hispanic community of America finds itself orphaned by the Democratic Party. Increasingly, Democrat lawmakers and leaders support abortion up until the very day of birth (and even beyond), so Hispanics naturally gravitate to pro-life Trump. A 2018 Pew poll, for instance, found that 61% of whites believe abortion should be legal in most/all circumstances, but only 44% of Hispanics concur.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Somewhat counter-intuitive. Interesting read though.

Hispanics Rally to Trump, Boosting His 2020 Chances | RealClearPolitics

Considering the writer of the article and the poll used, to say it needs to be taken with a grain of salt is a monumental understatement.

Democrat lawmakers and leaders support abortion up until the very day of birth (and even beyond)

I mean, really?

[Edward64]

Found a couple analysis that is somewhat relevant to the woman-at-home discussion.

I can easily believe mid-west and southern women lean towards stay-at-home and that east and west coast women think differently.

(PDF) Life Satisfaction of Career Women and Housewives

Abstract Profound changes in gender roles have taken place over the past several decades in the United States. Women’s roles have changed most: women are marry-ing later in life and at lower rates, having fewer children, and working more outside of the household. “Career women” are the new normal and housewifery has gone out of fashion. At the same time, women have become less happy. We use the US General Social Surveys from 1972 to 2014 to explore these latest trends. We find that,until recently, women were happier to be housewives or to work part-time than full-time, especially, women who are older, married, with children, in middle or upperclass, and living in suburbs or smaller places. The effect size of housewifery on sub-jective wellbeing (SWB) is mild to moderate, at about a fourth to a third of the effect of being unemployed. Therefore, we argue that one possible reason for the decline in average happiness for women was increased labor force participation. Yet, the happiness advantage of housewifery is declining among younger cohorts and career women may become happier than housewives in the future

CCF Press Advisory: Gender and Millennials Online Symposium | Council on Contemporary Families

Nika Fate-Dixon identifies similar trends among young people in the 18-25 age group, using data collected since 1977. In “Millennials Rethinking the Gender Revolution? Long-Range Trends in Views of Non-Traditional Roles for Women” she found that by 1994, 84 percent disagreed with the claim that a woman’s place was in the home. In 2014, however, the percent disagreeing had dropped to three-quarters. While Pepin and Cotter found that the backtracking on gender equality occurred among both men and women high-school seniors, Fate-Dixon found a sharp and growing gender gap among people in their early 20s, with men driving most of the decline.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Considering the writer of the article and the poll used, to say it needs to be taken with a grain of salt is a monumental understatement.

Can you find a poll that shows the hispanic support is not substantially accurate? You may not like the author of the piece but he is quoting multiple sources?

McLaughlin & Associates revealed that Hispanic approval for Trump in March jumped to 50%. This number matched the January Marist/NPR/PBS survey that shocked cynics with its own 50% approval finding. Even if those polls are too aggressive, February’s Morning Consult/Politico poll showed Trump’s Hispanic approval vaulting to a still-impressive 45%.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Proof that Trump supporters are a bunch of simple minded idiots who are easily brainwashed.

I get you were responding to Tarcone's post (and I agree with some of his post and disagree with other pieces).

However, if you truly believe this applies to all/most of Trump supporters, you are wrong. I have spoken to several of my well-educated, intelligent colleagues who supported Trump and they are "not simple minded idiots".

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Can you find a poll that shows the hispanic support is not substantially accurate? You may not like the author of the piece but he is quoting multiple sources?

This article is from January but shows why some of the polling he's quoting is inaccurate.

Is Trump really winning over Hispanics? - POLITICO

And a more recent article that touches on the same things.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/?utm_term=.c30e8a7c52a7

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Atocep

This article is from January but shows why some of the polling he's quoting is inaccurate.

Is Trump really winning over Hispanics? - POLITICO

And a more recent article that touches on the same things.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/?utm_term=.c30e8a7c52a7

Can't read the WP because don't have a subscription. The politico story did shoot down NPR/Marist and seemed to contradict the article's claim on Politico/Morning Consult.

I found the Politico/Morning Consult for Mar 2019. Did a search on "hispanic" and does contradict what I had posted originally. Good to know, it was counter-intuitive and somewhat weird to think Trump had that strong of support.

https://morningconsult.com/wp-conten..._RVs_v1_DK.pdf

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Can't read the WP because don't have a subscription. The politico story did shoot down NPR/Marist and seemed to contradict the article's claim on Politico/Morning Consult.

I found the Politico/Morning Consult for Mar 2019. Did a search on "hispanic" and does contradict what I had posted originally. Good to know, it was counter-intuitive and somewhat weird to think Trump had that strong of support.

https://morningconsult.com/wp-conten..._RVs_v1_DK.pdf

The secret to reading washington post articles is to right click and open in incognito window in Chrome. FYI

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by tarcone

I dont think you want to characterize these Trump supporters as dumb asses and all the other things you are saying.

That is the arrogance that has them feeling its "us against them and Trump is for us."

The comments about those supporters on this board is what is driving them out to vote. And keeping this country divided.

Whatever you think of Trump, there is a large portion of this country that already felt crapped upon by the "elitists" and democrats. And Trump came in and spoke directly to them. And they bought in.

They are not going away. And throwing Biden up isnt the answer. Dems have a better chance with Sanders if he can rally the 18-25 crowd out to vote. Otherwise, he is re-elected.

Ehh, they're pretty stupid. Especially if what you say is true that they base their vote on what other people think of them.

And I'm sure many people do feel shit on in red states. Many of those states are dirt poor and need to leech off the blue states for financial support. Including Iowa. For all the talk about handouts, maybe those states should pay their own way before bitching about others.

Originally Posted by tarcone

This is the thought process that cost them in 2016. Do not underestimate the silent majority. They vote in the right places to win the electoral college.

Silent minority. He won based off a centuries old system that was put in place to keep slave states happy. Not from the will of the people.

Originally Posted by tarcone

And being in those locales you know Im right. People are looking to go back to when the USA was number 1. And we controlled our destiny. And households had 2 parents. And there was discipline.

Its value based. Trump speaks to those values.

He's a thrice divorced trust fund baby who was out fucking a pornstar while his wife was caring for his newborn child.

Some kind of values those people hold.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I get you were responding to Tarcone's post (and I agree with some of his post and disagree with other pieces).

However, if you truly believe this applies to all/most of Trump supporters, you are wrong. I have spoken to several of my well-educated, intelligent colleagues who supported Trump and they are "not simple minded idiots".

If you're rich, you should vote for Trump. He's going to benefit you. Heck, even old people have a decent case voting for him because they'll pay less taxes and be dead by the time the debt needs to be repaid.

[thesloppy]

I think lots of critics fall over themselves to paint Trump's base as the most offensive characters possible while ignoring that the common thread is simply self interest. The great majority of the GOP base isn't necessarily actively stupid, racist, corrupt or morally bankrupt so much as they just put their own individual interests in front of anything else, and that's relatively basic human nature.

...that said, those folks who remain in the GOP camp appear to value the appeal to those interests even beyond any actual action taken towards them, so I dunno how or why Dems would choose to court those folks.

[Izulde]

Booty Man = Buttigieg BTW. Didn't feel like typing the full name out and figured it'd make a nice pun.

Anyway, it looks like the last couple pages is showing I made good use of my ignore list, considering some of his comments would definitely have triggered a box-worthy response on my mind end.

[thesloppy]

Listen, Booty Man clearly speaks to the butt-fixated minority that makes up the invisible backbone of this country, and I'm not going to give up my vote just because you made him up earlier today.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Atocep

The secret to reading washington post articles is to right click and open in incognito window in Chrome. FYI

TIL. Thank you!

(and should work for NYT also)

... wait, is that cheating? Should I be doing this? Is my moral compass way off?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

If you're rich, you should vote for Trump. He's going to benefit you. Heck, even old people have a decent case voting for him because they'll pay less taxes and be dead by the time the debt needs to be repaid.

Just focus on the "all/most ... are simple minded idiots". Admittedly the colleagues I talk with are middle-income to rich but they are not SMI.

Its fair to use name calling because its happened the other direction in spades. But if you really, really believe this, you are wrong.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

The great majority of the GOP base isn't necessarily actively stupid, racist, corrupt or morally bankrupt so much as they just put their own individual interests in front of anything else, and that's relatively basic human nature.

There is obviously truth in what you say but don't think that is the full story. Toss in patriotism, toss in believing in MAGA.

Poll Shows Veterans' Support for Trump Is Strong | Military.com

Nearly 6 in 10 military veterans voted for Republican candidates in the November midterm elections, and a similar majority had positive views of President Donald Trump's leadership. But women, the fastest growing demographic group in the military, are defying that vote trend.

That's according to AP VoteCast, a nationwide survey of more than 115,000 midterm voters — including more than 4,000 current and former service members — conducted for The Associated Press by NORC at the University of Chicago. It found that veterans overall approved of Trump's job performance, showing high support for the president's handling of border security and his efforts to make the U.S. safer from terrorism.

Male veterans were much more likely to approve of Trump than those who haven't served, 58 percent to 46 percent.

But 58 percent of female veterans disapproved of Trump, which is similar to the share of women overall (61 percent).

[RainMaker]

Nothing screams patriotism like a guy who pussed out of Vietnam, trashed distinguished members of the military, and spent a chunk of his campaign trying to team up with a foreign adversary.

Nonsense like "patriotism" and "values" are tools to mask the real reasons you can't say out loud.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Nothing screams patriotism like a guy who pussed out of Vietnam, trashed distinguished members of the military, and spent a chunk of his campaign trying to team up with a foreign adversary.

Nonsense like "patriotism" and "values" are tools to mask the real reasons you can't say out loud.

So you are saying the % of military that supports Trump are ...

"all/mostly ... are simple minded idiots" or something else ...?

(Go ahead, I can guess but say it so there is absolutely no misunderstanding)

[PilotMan]

You know, the large chunk of the military aren't exactly pulling from the top of the playing deck. There are great examples of exemplary leaders, but a substantial part enlist for a reason.

[miked]

I keep hearing about going back to some long-forgotten values and the way things were. That we should visit some of these rural areas and cater to them to understand America. Many of these states are the poorest, dumbest, unhealthiest, welfare-taking-est places in the country. They constantly elect republicans because of "values' even at the expense of everything in their lives. I just don't get it. The last people in this country who should feel persecuted are white Christians. OMG, the Walmart lady said Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas, this country has gone to trash!

I agree with the above posters, too many idiots allowed to vote (and by the way, there is a greater than 50% chance the "values" guy you voted for has either cheated on his wife, paid for an abortion, or banged some dude in a bathroom). But hey, White People Rule!

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

You know, the large chunk of the military aren't exactly pulling from the top of the playing deck. There are great examples of exemplary leaders, but a substantial part enlist for a reason.

Ouch.

Not sure this tells the full story but here's a statistic. I think there is value in having obtained a HS degree. You may have been thinking about college with your "top of the playing deck" but tbh, that's pretty presumptive.

6 facts about the U.S. military's changing demographics | Pew Research Center

Military officers have considerably higher levels of educational attainment, on average, than enlisted personnel and U.S. adults. More than eight-in-ten DOD active-duty officers have at least a bachelor’s degree, including 42% who hold an advanced degree. They are four times as likely as average adults ages 18 to 44 to have completed a postgraduate degree.

The educational profile of enlisted personnel is much different. The vast majority of enlisted personnel (92%) have completed high school or some college. This compares with 60% of all U.S. adults ages 18 to 44. Fewer than one-in-ten enlisted personnel (7%) have a bachelor’s degree, compared with 19% of all adults ages 18 to 44.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by miked

I keep hearing about going back to some long-forgotten values and the way things were. That we should visit some of these rural areas and cater to them to understand America. Many of these states are the poorest, dumbest, unhealthiest, welfare-taking-est places in the country. They constantly elect republicans because of "values' even at the expense of everything in their lives. I just don't get it. The last people in this country who should feel persecuted are white Christians. OMG, the Walmart lady said Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas, this country has gone to trash!

I agree with the above posters, too many idiots allowed to vote (and by the way, there is a greater than 50% chance the "values" guy you voted for has either cheated on his wife, paid for an abortion, or banged some dude in a bathroom). But hey, White People Rule!

I could say the same thing about people voting for democrats. Except they live in large metro areas which are some of the poorest, dumbest, unhealthiest, welfare-taking-est places. But they think the dems are for them. So they vote that way. They buy the lie that some dem is going to improve their lot in life through government hand outs.

It cuts both ways. Face it, our country is full of dumb people. The GOP finally found a guy that could rally more of their dumb people out to vote. The dems failed.

I guess it comes down to which party can throw out a person to rally the uninformed.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I get you were responding to Tarcone's post (and I agree with some of his post and disagree with other pieces).

However, if you truly believe this applies to all/most of Trump supporters, you are wrong. I have spoken to several of my well-educated, intelligent colleagues who supported Trump and they are "not simple minded idiots".

OK.

I'll rephrase.

Not all Trump supporters are simple minded idiots, just a very large portion, but just about all simple minded idiots are Trump supporters.

I bet a Venn diagram of people with truck nuts and people who support Trump is pretty much a circle.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by tarcone

I could say the same thing about people voting for democrats. Except they live in large metro areas which are some of the poorest, dumbest, unhealthiest, welfare-taking-est places. But they think the dems are for them. So they vote that way. They buy the lie that some dem is going to improve their lot in life through government hand outs.

It cuts both ways. Face it, our country is full of dumb people. The GOP finally found a guy that could rally more of their dumb people out to vote. The dems failed.

I guess it comes down to which party can throw out a person to rally the uninformed.

Democrats more educated than Republicans, Pew Research Center survey finds - Washington Times

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

OK.

I'll rephrase.

Not all Trump supporters are simple minded idiots, just a very large portion, but just about all simple minded idiots are Trump supporters.

I bet a Venn diagram of people with truck nuts and people who support Trump is pretty much a circle.

I like the qualification, rephrasing ... but com'on give with one hand and slap with the other ... truck nuts?

I guess the stereotype of democrats being wine-sipping, elitist snobs may be true.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I like the qualification, rephrasing ... but com'on give with one hand and slap with the other ... truck nuts?

I guess the stereotype of democrats being wine-sipping, elitist snobs may be true.

Lathum is the type that drove those voters to Trump. As a highly educated friend would say he is part of the problem. My friend calls it the "wussification" of America. Our country is becoming soft and entitled. Which goes against the grain. This country was born and raised on violence. It is our culture. Right or wrong. But people still believe in the values instilled by the people that made this country great. nd a lot of people want to go back to that. We do not want to be France. We want to be the USA.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Edward64

CCF Press Advisory: Gender and Millennials Online Symposium | Council on Contemporary Families

If you look at the article this comes from it's pretty obvious there's a lot of noise in the results, so looking at any short period is a mistake.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Lathum is the type that drove those voters to Trump. As a highly educated friend would say he is part of the problem. My friend calls it the "wussification" of America. Our country is becoming soft and entitled. Which goes against the grain. This country was born and raised on violence. It is our culture. Right or wrong. But people still believe in the values instilled by the people that made this country great. nd a lot of people want to go back to that. We do not want to be France. We want to be the USA.

So Jesus is violence?

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

So Jesus is violence?

LOL. reaching pretty far arent you. Dig deep.

I over simplified my response and I apologize. But you are being obtuse and you know it

The values that created this country are being run down by the Dems. Again, we are not France.

But you are right, this country was created based partly on freedom of religion. So people could come to a place and worship their god anyway they wanted. No state religion, just your beliefs.

I know that frightens you. But no one is going to try and convert you. You are safe.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

So Jesus is violence?

Yes, JPhillips. You see, we need to go back to simpler times, when men were men. When it wasn't about your "book-learnin'" (I mean, what did that ever get us but an uppity black-man as president). No, we need to go back to time when violence proved the worthiness of a man. Back when women knew their place (which was where a man told her to be).



I personally think the problem started when we left the caves in first place.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I like the qualification, rephrasing ... but com'on give with one hand and slap with the other ... truck nuts?

I guess the stereotype of democrats being wine-sipping, elitist snobs may be true.

We did have a $65 bottle of wine with dinner last night, so maybe so.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by tarcone

LOL. reaching pretty far arent you. Dig deep.

I over simplified my response and I apologize. But you are being obtuse and you know it

The values that created this country are being run down by the Dems. Again, we are not France.

But you are right, this country was created based partly on freedom of religion. So people could come to a place and worship their god anyway they wanted. No state religion, just your beliefs.

I know that frightens you. But no one is going to try and convert you. You are safe.

Dude, again you have no idea who I am. I'm an elder in my church. I just find your love of violence as a founding principle to be appalling.

[Lathum]

So what Tarcone is saying is that we need to go back to a time when blacks had no rights, women were basically slaves existing to raise kids and be domestic slaves, and a culture of violence was the major part of our identity, otherwise we are going to turn in to France. Makes sense.

[JPhillips]

There's no point in an honest argument with tarcone because he's willing to contradict whatever he said in the past.

Dems should find an Obama, but Obama is the cause of Trump.

It's not about the economy, but Trump brought back all the jobs.

We need to embrace violence, but the cities are too full of violence.

[tarcone]

Wow. Oversimplify much?


Do you know the history of the country you live in? At all?

Do you understand any of the problems we have today?

You realize that the democrats were the party of slavery and fought against civil rights, correct?

Im not advocating for Trump. But you guys are the problem. You sit in your suburban homes and spout off about how bad the country is and if you dont think the way we do you are wrong and stupid.

Your right JPhillips all I said that you posted is true.

If the dems want to win, they need to find a person with the qualities of Obama. And yes, his leadership led to Trump being elected.

It is not solely about the economy. But there are more jobs now then there were in the last administration. And fed people are happy people.

I never said we need to embrace violence. I am against violence. Never been in a fight in my life. And I apologize for the oversimplification of that statement. I was using it as a general statement of the values of this country. But you extremely intelligent liberals chose to play dumb and condescending.

That is the problem we are facing. This type of behavior divides this already divided country.

We need to get back to those values that made this country great. Hard work, taking care of yourself, raising your kids. That is being lost.

one of the greatest dems of all time once said "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what can you do for your country."

The democratic party has strayed way to far away from this brilliant idea.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Wow. Oversimplify much?

We need to get back to those values that made this country great. Hard work, taking care of yourself, raising your kids. That is being lost.

It all boils down this statement and you are dead fucking wrong. We've never lost those values. What evidence do you have that we have other than your own delusion?

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by lungs

It all boils down this statement and you are dead fucking wrong. We've never lost those values. What evidence do you have that we have other than your own delusion?

Not everybody, just them. You know, those people that always stereotype Republicans.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by lungs

It all boils down this statement and you are dead fucking wrong. We've never lost those values. What evidence do you have that we have other than your own delusion?

Well, I look at the inner cities where the kids have no fathers. And these cities are the worst places to live.

I can look at the poor rural areas and say the same thing. Kids raising kids.

I can look at all the entitlement programs the government gives to those that are poor. No incentive to work, just hand outs.

You dont see this? Are you serious?

Then you are the problem.

[tarcone]

You know lungs, Im surprised by your response.

I saw on the news a Minnesota dairy farmer crying on facebook over the prices of milk and it wasnt "fair" and basically begging for a government handout.

You saw the writing on the wall and changed your business model. You worked your ass off to change the production of your farm. You didnt cry for a hand out.

Im shocked.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Well, I look at the inner cities where the kids have no fathers. And these cities are the worst places to live.

I can look at the poor rural areas and say the same thing. Kids raising kids.

I can look at all the entitlement programs the government gives to those that are poor. No incentive to work, just hand outs.

You dont see this? Are you serious?

Then you are the problem.

It's all your own perception. Give me facts, give me statistics.

For what it's worth, I'm living the entitled life right now. Yeah, I've gotten on whatever government assistance I could after our farm shut down until I can get my business into money-making mode. If you think it's an easy life, you are out of your fucking mind. I have EVERY incentive to get off as soon as I can. It's not a sustainable lifestyle! So sit back and throw stones all you want, but I'm living it right now and you are completely full of shit.

Then you have the nerve to tell me that I'm the fucking problem? Fuck you, man.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by tarcone

You know lungs, Im surprised by your response.

I saw on the news a Minnesota dairy farmer crying on facebook over the prices of milk and it wasnt "fair" and basically begging for a government handout.

You saw the writing on the wall and changed your business model. You worked your ass off to change the production of your farm. You didnt cry for a hand out.

Im shocked.

You obviously didn't know my whole story.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by lungs

You obviously didn't know my whole story.

I do not. But I see the end result. I see you hitching yourself up by your boot straps and being successful.

The end result came from you working to get where you are. Did you have help along the way? Im sure you did. Did you quit working because of that help? No, you didnt.

It wasnt a crutch, but a helping hand. There is a difference.

[CU Tiger]

I am going to regret re-engaging but there are several folks in this thread who I respect greatly while differing in opinion.

There are also some folks I dis-repsect on higher levels though we share opinions.


However where I think we are talking past each other is this:

Originally Posted by Radii

The bottom % of people in this country are in terrible shape, both white and black, and only one side of those has a single part of their platform to try to help.

You can say that the left only does it to pander to the poor for votes, and the people in power don't care, but once again, fuck it.. its the right thing to do, so I don't care why its done.

Where I think, at their core, the educated and intelligent centers of each part party ways is in the above.

It is what is the definition of help.


Instead of putting words in people's mouths let me speak only for myself, and what I think many who think like me think.


I oppose government welfare programs but strongly support helping the poor, down-trodden and in need.

I think the government is horribly inefficient and is the worst possible use of finite resources to help those people.
I know that if I keep more of my income out of government hands I will make a greater positive impact in my local area than they ever will.
I want to help the lower class. I don't think the left's policies help them. I think they hurt them.
I respect that many, maybe the majority, of the voter base of the left has their heart in the right place. They want to support policies that they think will help.

I also think that many of the controlling interest of the left party doesnt give two shtis about the lower class and wants to "help" them only to buy their votes.
In contrast, I think there is certainly a % of the right that wants to lower taxes just to keep more in their pockets.
I accept that there is a portion of the right that wants to abolish welfare (used generically) programs because they dont care about others and are selfish.
And I think there is a % that truly thinks all government mandated welfare programs amount to little more than giving a junkie a fix or a drunk a drink. And that they are not help and that they truly want to help them.


I think most reasonable people see that all the groups above I mention exist.

Where I think we disagree is the % of each group.

Some folks think 99% or all Rs are bad and evil and stupid and 1% are ok.
Some folks think 99% or all Ds are bad or evil and stupid and 1% are ok.

I think most reasonable people recognize neither of these to be true.

I think the real distribution is much, much closer to 80% of both parties being well intentioned though opposing on ideas on best way. I think the balance of power is essentially 49/51 and sways back and forth by the day and time.

I think there are a lot of folks on both sides who fail to consider that the other side may have a point, that stick their fingers in their ears and FA-LA-LA-LaLA so they dont hear the other side.

Its why I have a lot of emotional fatigue on the issue. I understand the belief that gov welfare helps. I disagree, but I understand it. If you have a new perspective I will gladly listen and try to learn. But when repeat tired platitudes and name call I tune you out.

Same goes for the side I agree with on any given issue. If you are just going to spew rheotric Im going to tune out and wander away pretty quickly.

Before I am labeled let me label myself.

Strong, Starchly right leaning on most, but not all, issues.
Voted for Trump in 2016. Knowing what I know now would vote for him in 2016 again.
Will not vote for Trump in 2020. Depending on what my options are determines whether I will vote D or abstain from any Presidential vote.

[BishopMVP]

Cities are the worst! Then why are they still growing while suburbs decline?

They're too violent! Except that levels of violent crime have gone down since the ideal time you want to go back to.

It feels a little like I'm the 15th guy into the fight & kicking somebody while they're down, but he's still saying dumb stuff, so...

[lungs]

Originally Posted by tarcone

I do not. But I see the end result. I see you hitching yourself up by your boot straps and being successful.

The end result came from you working to get where you are. Did you have help along the way? Im sure you did. Did you quit working because of that help? No, you didnt.

It wasnt a crutch, but a helping hand. There is a difference.

No, there is not a difference. My unemployment benefits total $16k for the year. When they are gone, they are gone. I'm getting $300/week. And my health insurance is now subsidized. That's it. When the six months are up, they are up.

And it's not just my own experiences that tell me living on the dole is not a good lifestyle. I had a homeless guy living on our farm for six years. The guy was in his late 50s, very few skills, worked his whole life until he got laid off from his factory job. Once his unemployment ran out, he was fucked. Food stamps were all he got. He tried to work, but he was old, slow, and not very smart. Nobody wanted him.

Trust me, living on the dole is not a lifestyle that is sustainable.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by lungs

No, there is not a difference. My unemployment benefits total $16k for the year. When they are gone, they are gone. I'm getting $300/week. And my health insurance is now subsidized. That's it. When the six months are up, they are up.

And it's not just my own experiences that tell me living on the dole is not a good lifestyle. I had a homeless guy living on our farm for six years. The guy was in his late 50s, very few skills, worked his whole life until he got laid off from his factory job. Once his unemployment ran out, he was fucked. Food stamps were all he got. He tried to work, but he was old, slow, and not very smart. Nobody wanted him.

Trust me, living on the dole is not a lifestyle that is sustainable.

There are ways to scam the system and the poor learn how to do it. I have studied this. Read Ruby Paynes book sometime. There are ways around the system. And they figure it out.

Your middle class thought process is completely different than that of the poor. It is well documented. Read into this stuff. You know that 16k isnt sustainable. But that is your Middle class upbringing.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

I am going to regret re-engaging but there are several folks in this thread who I respect greatly while differing in opinion.

There are also some folks I dis-repsect on higher levels though we share opinions.


However where I think we are talking past each other is this:





Where I think, at their core, the educated and intelligent centers of each part party ways is in the above.

It is what is the definition of help.


Instead of putting words in people's mouths let me speak only for myself, and what I think many who think like me think.


I oppose government welfare programs but strongly support helping the poor, down-trodden and in need.

I think the government is horribly inefficient and is the worst possible use of finite resources to help those people.
I know that if I keep more of my income out of government hands I will make a greater positive impact in my local area than they ever will.
I want to help the lower class. I don't think the left's policies help them. I think they hurt them.
I respect that many, maybe the majority, of the voter base of the left has their heart in the right place. They want to support policies that they think will help.

I also think that many of the controlling interest of the left party doesnt give two shtis about the lower class and wants to "help" them only to buy their votes.
In contrast, I think there is certainly a % of the right that wants to lower taxes just to keep more in their pockets.
I accept that there is a portion of the right that wants to abolish welfare (used generically) programs because they dont care about others and are selfish.
And I think there is a % that truly thinks all government mandated welfare programs amount to little more than giving a junkie a fix or a drunk a drink. And that they are not help and that they truly want to help them.


I think most reasonable people see that all the groups above I mention exist.

Where I think we disagree is the % of each group.

Some folks think 99% or all Rs are bad and evil and stupid and 1% are ok.
Some folks think 99% or all Ds are bad or evil and stupid and 1% are ok.

I think most reasonable people recognize neither of these to be true.

I think the real distribution is much, much closer to 80% of both parties being well intentioned though opposing on ideas on best way. I think the balance of power is essentially 49/51 and sways back and forth by the day and time.

I think there are a lot of folks on both sides who fail to consider that the other side may have a point, that stick their fingers in their ears and FA-LA-LA-LaLA so they dont hear the other side.

Its why I have a lot of emotional fatigue on the issue. I understand the belief that gov welfare helps. I disagree, but I understand it. If you have a new perspective I will gladly listen and try to learn. But when repeat tired platitudes and name call I tune you out.

Same goes for the side I agree with on any given issue. If you are just going to spew rheotric Im going to tune out and wander away pretty quickly.

Before I am labeled let me label myself.

Strong, Starchly right leaning on most, but not all, issues.
Voted for Trump in 2016. Knowing what I know now would vote for him in 2016 again.
Will not vote for Trump in 2020. Depending on what my options are determines whether I will vote D or abstain from any Presidential vote.

This is a great post that gives a viewpoint much better than making insane generalizations about where a women would be happier or why we need more violence.

Personally I never thought all republicans were bad, but when you see the kind of person Trump so obviously is and continue to support him I can’t help but question your ethics and morality.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Cities are the worst! Then why are they still growing while suburbs decline?

They're too violent! Except that levels of violent crime have gone down since the ideal time you want to go back to.

It feels a little like I'm the 15th guy into the fight & kicking somebody while they're down, but he's still saying dumb stuff, so...

You know big cities have neighborhoods and different sections right?

St Louis is considered one of the most violent cities in the world. But there some really nice neighborhoods. I lived in a couple of them in my day.

Your point has no value.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by tarcone

There are ways to scam the system and the poor learn how to do it.

The sweeping generalizations you have made the last few pages of this thread are nothing short of repugnant.