OT: A Song of Ice and Fire Series (spoilers inside) - Page 33

bronconick · 06-05-2014, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I am not, at all, denying that you have a point, Imran. And your scenario is still the far more likely eventuality. Besides indulging in random speculation, what I think I'm doing is outlining the second-most-likely option at this point, which could become more likely if either a) the show really outstrips the books and/or b) Martin starts worrying about his mortality.

But on the same topic, given how fast the show has gone and how slow the books are to come, isn't it now more-or-less a certainty that they'll catch up in a season or two? This is an honest question, not a sarcastic one. I've read a lot of criticism & analysis, but no one's really laid out when and how they'd run out of written content. Anyone want to take a stab?

Honestly, i think the next season will finish with a spoiler of book 6 unless it's released before then.He has two battles that he pushed from 5 to 6, and HBO is going to want one of them to end next season.

flere-imsaho · 06-05-2014, 10:47 AM

Apparently they're casting for a "young Cersei" and thus may be showing, next season, some of the backstory to the current story. Since I can't remember exactly where I got that rumor in my reading, take that as a big grain of salt.

But in other news, there's this from Entertainment Weekly:

Quote:

George R.R. Martin is on board with most of the changes the show has made to the story this season, although he misses the stuff that's been removed:

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It's been a great season. Though by and large we are seeing more differences from the books and I've been predicting that from the beginning. There's a certain snowball effect of making changes and I think that will continue.

He also believes that the show will not be able to follow the producers' seven-season plan, given how much of the story is left to tell. And to deal with the fact that the show may run out of published material to adapt, Martin advocates capping the series with staggered feature films. This would give him more time and give the big final set pieces a larger budget. Of course, HBO sees itself as primarily a TV company and is on record as not endorsing this option. and Martin himself believes this is unlikely, because movies based on The Sopranos and Deadwood have never materialized.

And finally, Martin's still being firm-but-hedging about whether the series will be finished after book seven:

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My plan is to finish in seven. But my original plan was to finish in three. I write the stories and they grow. I deal with certain things and sometimes I find myself not at the end of a story. My plan right now is still seven. But first I have to finish Book Six. Get back to me when I'm half-way through Book Seven and then maybe I'll tell you something more meaningful.

Ronnie Dobbs3 · 06-05-2014, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Apparently they're casting for a "young Cersei" and thus may be showing, next season, some of the backstory to the current story. Since I can't remember exactly where I got that rumor in my reading, take that as a big grain of salt.

http://winteriscoming.net/2014/06/05...-rumored-cast/

ISiddiqui · 06-05-2014, 10:49 AM

Well, it'd be good to have a young Cersei so they could show the fortune teller telling her that one of her brothers would kill her - I think that while she's been focusing on Tyrion doing it, it'll end up being Jamie.

flere-imsaho · 06-05-2014, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

There is more than enough material for 2 seasons from combining Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons (the people who say nothing happens haven't particularly thought that through - also there are lots of minor storylines they could milk).

Thanks for taking a crack at it, and I think much of your speculation is probably spot on.

One thing that's interesting, however, is the idea of "milking" the minor storylines for extra content while they wait for Martin. You're absolutely right that there's plenty of content there if they do so, but also note that to do their avoidance of many of the minor storylines has, in general, been praised as keeping things more on track / interesting / compelling / etc.... So, say, wallowing around in Mereen politics or spending too much time on Quentyn, etc... could cause the show to lose interest. If they have to go that way, it'll be a tightrope to walk.

ISiddiqui · 06-05-2014, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bronconick

Honestly, i think the next season will finish with a spoiler of book 6 unless it's released before then.He has two battles that he pushed from 5 to 6, and HBO is going to want one of them to end next season.

You wouldn't need a battle as much as a big shock. I don't think Cersei being thrown in jail by the High Septon would necessarily qualify, but joining it with Aegon still being alive may.

Ronnie Dobbs3 · 06-05-2014, 10:54 AM

Also, if a leaked audition tape for Obara Sand is accurate (but might be false dialogue merely for the audition)

Season 5 and possibly future book spoilers

Spoiler

ISiddiqui · 06-05-2014, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Thanks for taking a crack at it, and I think much of your speculation is probably spot on.

One thing that's interesting, however, is the idea of "milking" the minor storylines for extra content while they wait for Martin. You're absolutely right that there's plenty of content there if they do so, but also note that to do their avoidance of many of the minor storylines has, in general, been praised as keeping things more on track / interesting / compelling / etc.... So, say, wallowing around in Mereen politics or spending too much time on Quentyn, etc... could cause the show to lose interest. If they have to go that way, it'll be a tightrope to walk.

I don't mean THOSE minor storylines

. I mean the fun ones - like Tyrion & Penny and the Ser Robert Strong stuff (though I guess Ser Robert Strong could be a major player later on).

Coffee Warlord · 06-05-2014, 11:02 AM

I think you're the first person I've heard call the Tyrion/Penny stuff 'fun'.

ISiddiqui · 06-05-2014, 11:07 AM

It amused me.

I think people were more about the "let's get on with it" because they thought that Dance would end with the Second Battle of Meereen. In re-reading Dance, it is much more amusing because you realize that Battle will be in Winds.

Ronnie Dobbs3 · 06-05-2014, 11:11 AM

A Reddit thread Dicussing how S5 will likely look, germane to this discussion. The top two comments by BryndenBFish in particular.

What changes would you make to A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons while adapting them for the show?

GrantDawg · 06-05-2014, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

I think you're the first person I've heard call the Tyrion/Penny stuff 'fun'.

You bringing this up makes me think I need to re-read the series, or at least the last two books. I've read through book three about 6 times, but I've only read book 4 twice, and book five once. I couldn't for the life of me think of who Penny was, then reading her wikki makes me realize I don't remember crap about the last book.

ISiddiqui · 06-05-2014, 02:26 PM

The last 3rd of Book 5 was pretty awesome. Unfortunately the first 2/3rds was like Book 1 exposition Hell most of the time.

DaddyTorgo · 06-05-2014, 08:29 PM

I'm rereading Feast and then Dance at the moment.

flere-imsaho · 06-06-2014, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

The last 3rd of Book 5 was pretty awesome. Unfortunately the first 2/3rds was like Book 1 exposition Hell most of the time.

I'd agree with this. It definitely started getting better again.

Thomkal · 06-06-2014, 10:47 AM

Want to be a character in the series and killed off in an horrible way? Got $20,000?

George RR Martin Wants To Write You Into Game Of Thrones, Kill You Off

One person at random who donates anything will get the chance to fly (with a friend) to New Mexico to have dinner with GRRM and ask any and all Game of Thrones questions.

sabotai · 06-15-2014, 09:15 PM

Some departures from the book in that last episode, although I did enjoy the Brienne vs. The Hound fight.

I'm on book 5 now (~10% into it) and I'm guessing they jumped deeper into book 5 with Bran's storyline there at the end?

NobodyHere · 06-15-2014, 09:24 PM

Any details for non-HBO watchers?

ISiddiqui · 06-15-2014, 09:25 PM

I heard there was no Lady Stoneheart. Leaving it for next season it seems (well it was at the end of A Feast for Crows).

sabotai · 06-15-2014, 09:35 PM

Nope, no Lady Stoneheart yet.

RainMaker · 06-15-2014, 11:01 PM

Are they definitely going to do Lady Stoneheart or is there a chance the character will be completely skipped over?

ISiddiqui · 06-15-2014, 11:29 PM

I can't imagine that GRRM wrote Lady Stoneheart in the series to have her do nothing important. And since she likely will do something important, they have to have her in the series, right?

Chief Rum · 06-16-2014, 12:40 AM

Wasn't Lady Stoneheart at the end of Storm of Swords? Her part at the end of A Feast For Crows was where she and the Brotherhood encountered Brienne if I recall correctly.

flere-imsaho · 06-16-2014, 07:25 AM

I personally suspect they're not going to do Lady Stoneheart. I think the character is one GRRM created because it was neat, but ended up not having a significant role for in the rest of his roadmap for the story. As in, she'll be a catalyst for certain actions, but not a major player. And if that's the case, there are plenty of other characters being used by the show that could provide that catalyst function.

Coffee Warlord · 06-16-2014, 07:32 AM

I'm suspecting the same, though they left it at a point where it'd be easy for Brienne to encounter her at the start of next season.

RIP Hound and Ayra Show. You were fun, though I'm ready for some House of Black and White.

DaddyTorgo · 06-16-2014, 08:18 AM

My thoughts on the last few weeks:

-Hound vs. Brienne was fun. Gives Brienne more of a badass vibe, which is why I suppose they made the change.

-Don't like what they changed with Sansa's story personally. I guess they're just trying to simplify it for viewers and all, but eh. She was looking very fetching in that dress backlit by the light though. And it definitely enables them to go faster on skeezy-Littlefinger I guess.

-I liked that we got basically a full episode at the Wall (or so it felt like). Appropriate gravitas.

-Byebye Tywin.

-Dragons!!

-Ummm - Children of the Forest & Bloodraven!! Fuck yeah!

bronconick · 06-16-2014, 08:23 AM

If Varys stays on the boat, I wonder if they're cutting that (clunky to me) revelation at the epilogue of book 5.

Coffee Warlord · 06-16-2014, 08:48 AM

Given his love for writing about boat travel, clearly Martin just used his influence to make the showmakers put even MORE people on boats.

ISiddiqui · 06-16-2014, 08:51 AM

Varys will just come back at some point. Besides, that scene is one of my favorite scenes in the enter books - it better not be cut!!

Anyways, my fears with the 9th episode and moving Stannis's salvation of the Night's Watch to the 10th episode are realized. Stannis's heroism gets lost in the Tywin dying, Arya leaving plots. Oh well. In the books, Stannis is an unyielding legalistic, but generally respectable guy. In the series, he seems like a villain.

JPhillips · 06-16-2014, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Varys will just come back at some point. Besides, that scene is one of my favorite scenes in the enter books - it better not be cut!!

Anyways, my fears with the 9th episode and moving Stannis's salvation of the Night's Watch to the 10th episode are realized. Stannis's heroism gets lost in the Tywin dying, Arya leaving plots. Oh well. In the books, Stannis is an unyielding legalistic, but generally respectable guy. In the series, he seems like a villain.

Yeah, the way Stannis arrived after Mance had offered peace really changed the character of Stannis' attack. His army slaughtered some free folk rather than saved the realm.

DaddyTorgo · 06-16-2014, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Yeah, the way Stannis arrived after Mance had offered peace really changed the character of Stannis' attack. His army slaughtered some free folk rather than saved the realm.

Good point.

Ronnie Dobbs3 · 06-16-2014, 10:53 AM

I wonder if the portrayal of Stannis is because they know where this is headed; shading him appropriately for the heel turn? Though this would be complicated by the Battle of Winterfell I would think.

ISiddiqui · 06-16-2014, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs3

I wonder if the portrayal of Stannis is because they know where this is headed; shading him appropriately for the heel turn? Though this would be complicated by the Battle of Winterfell I would think.

True. Stannis vs. the Boltons... the way the show has Stannis portrayed now, a lot of the unsullied may just want both of them to die and thus not care. Perhaps Stannis does do something horrid in the end game and that view is shading his character now, but until then, you are just going to make viewers not care about what is going on up North.

Vince, Pt. II · 06-16-2014, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

...Oh well. In the books, Stannis is an unyielding legalistic, but generally respectable guy. In the series, he seems like a villain.

Do people just want to overlook the fact that he willfully slept with Melisandre and kept his wife around? He's kind of a dick, and not really all that great a ruler. He has a self imposed legalistic/moralistic code, but he ignores it when it suits him. He's personally overseen people who were loyal to him burned alive.

When you're trying to pick between the different rulers still alive in Westeros sure, he's not bad. But that's like saying that the guy who shoved grandma down the stairs for her welfare check is a pretty cool guy when you're looking at the inmates of San Quentin.

flere-imsaho · 06-16-2014, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

True. Stannis vs. the Boltons... the way the show has Stannis portrayed now, a lot of the unsullied may just want both of them to die and thus not care. Perhaps Stannis does do something horrid in the end game and that view is shading his character now, but until then, you are just going to make viewers not care about what is going on up North.

I'll bet they solve that problem (at least temporarily, so that Stannis-vs-Boltons isn't a case of "we hate them both, who cares") by playing up Stannis' support for Jon Snow as much as humanly possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

Do people just want to overlook the fact that he willfully slept with Melisandre and kept his wife around? He's kind of a dick, and not really all that great a ruler. He has a self imposed legalistic/moralistic code, but he ignores it when it suits him. He's personally overseen people who were loyal to him burned alive.

Yeah, it was probably Renly who would have made the best king, as he understood the whole point of winning the people's trust/support as a key element of "kinging". Made him a good complement to Margaery (or vice versa) and it was a good bit of writing by GRRM to overturn that particular trope by killing him.

Edit: It may be overlooked (I don't know), but two of Renly's scenes served as great foils to point out how bad most of the leaders are. First his outburst at Robert about why war sucks, while they were hunting, and the later his 1:1 meeting with Stannis trying to explain to him why he'll be such a bad king (just before getting killed).

flere-imsaho · 06-16-2014, 12:16 PM

Commentary / speculation from a book reader on another board I frequent. I agree with much of this, though I still suspect Lady Stoneheart may not be in the show:

Spoiler

Alright, so the things I have to say about Ep 9, Ep 10, and Season 4 kind of blur together so bear with me.

King's Landing: The non-combat trial, buildup, combat trial, and Jaime's farewell to his brother all feel executed perfectly to me. Tyrion's finale could've stood some more buildup, but I'm rather good with the speed of it. I, for one, don't need or even particularly want the "where do whores go" existential drugery. So much of that thread going forward is internal. Not only did that make for slooooooow reading, conveying that to a visual medium would likely turn off viewers faster than these slight differences start ruffling the feathers of my fellow literati. Tyrion strangling Shae still made sense (from a plot perspective...it was kind of fast from a physical perspective), given he's already pushed to the brink and given up on his family and the Seven Kingdoms.

On a side note, Cersei's threat to Tywin makes Tywin's death just that much more painful. The look on his face after she tells him shows that Tywin realizes his "legacy" completely unravels itself soon. So Tywin leads his death scene with the typical commanding, dismissal tone he always gives his children. His backpedaling grows in desperation as he realizes Tyrion refuses to recognize his authority anymore.

Varys's departure from King's Landing with Tyrion works well in a lot of ways, since we're never certain what Varys went about doing after Tywin's death. This carries a few side-effects intended primarily for the show/illiterati, but could also prove a boon to literati: we get more screen-time with Varys, which is a great thing. I enjoy the performance for the acting's sake itself and I always feel even Varys's appearance tells me something important is happening...and if you're not seeing it, then it's happening in the shadows. We'll also see the connection between Varys and Magister Illyrio. The link to the east will help set things up so much better when "Aegon" and Danerys start to move west.

The Wall: The biggest complaints stem from how this got dragged out. This could have been due to which actors they had on contract and what needed to happen with them. I'm not sure. But between Stannis dragging his feet to get north and the bizarre storming of Craster's Keep, this thread felt completely off-pace. Ygritte's fury and death may have hit harder had the battle taken place much sooner in the season. I feel like the battle needed to sit in at the mid-season and not take an entire episode. Cutting the entire Craster's Keep portion would've allowed for the arrival of Stannis in episode 6 or 7, allow Stannis to do something other than refinance and relocate, and given us time for at least the 998th Lord Commander Campaign Season...if not the election itself. Arguably, the extra time wasted on The Wall built up more resentment for the Jon Snow/Wall thread and took away time from other much-needed threads (the start of the Mereen Insurgency/Operation Slave Freedom, Who Cares About the Iron Islanders).

Bran and the Far North: It's about time! Seeing a Child and magic certainly remind us that there's more to this world than politics, sex, and gruesome deaths. I couldn't really tell if those skeletons were wights per se, but seeing them in combat for once really puts the danger in the North in perspective. Also, seeing them hostile and not under the control of the Old Man or the Child tells me that the Old Man doesn't necessarily represent The Other. I'm looking forward to seeing exactly what the Old Man teaches Bran, since I imagine it'll develop a bit faster than the books. Jojen's death really didn't do much for me, as I felt like he was just an exposition fairy that showed up right from nowhere. Jojen could've been Bran's Tyler Durden for all I cared. Might've actually made the thread more interesting.

Danerys and Mereen: Is it me, or was the goat-roasting wasting time? Couldn't they have just skipped to the little girl? Danerys's story came grinding down to slowness before she even set foot in Mereen...one change I didn't welcome from the books. Ah well. Hopefully, season 5 delivers on its promise of a heavily edited AFFC/ADWD combination and gets us all the way to her first dragon ride with reclaiming her true Khaleesi respect.

Brienne/Arya intersection: probably the absolute most welcome change from the book. Brienne's fight with The Hound was both brutal and yet surprisingly (and refreshingly) not gruesome for this show. The Hound's defense of her does seem a bit out of place, but he knows someone will pay serious money for her. Whoever made the decision to combine these together needs a decent bonus and pat on the back. Not only do we finally get to see a liberated Arya free to pursue her Faceless career aspirations, but we also see Brienne's desperation and guilt of her failures (Renly, Catelyn, accepting Jaime Lannister's aid, and now Arya). This buildup will actually make Stoneheart's appearance just that much more vicious.

Speaking of which...yeah. Stoneheart didn't appear. Get over it. We've got enough threads going on that the last thing we needed was a cliffhanger of another thread tangent. Remember how the cliffhanger of season 2 got resolved? (Sam surrounded by wights and White Walkers to Sam rejoining the remaining Night's Watch after a major off-screen battle) I'd rather not have another major cliffhanger tied up by so much off-screen development, thank you. We also need to get Jaime moving out of King's Landing before Stoneheart's appearance really feels threatening to sympathetic characters. I'm not sure how they'll do that now, unless the Blackfish is maintaining an army in counter-siege mode in Riverrun for some reason.

Season 4 took some weird detours of filler. While not as egregious as some of the Season 3 filler, still too much. One thing that both helps and hurts this show is the lack of any date/hard passage of time reference. It helps the show because the plot isn't restricted the intricate puzzling together of threads based on logical timing. It hurts because keeping track of what's happening when is pretty fuzzy. For instance, I feel like maybe a month of time passed at The Wall for the whole season...but somewhere between one and three months passed in Mereen. The Purple Wedding buildup might've taken a month, but the trial up to Tyrion's escape could've only been two weeks. I have no reference to know. This combination of filler and relativistic time leaves me spinning a bit on event progression in Season 4.

ISiddiqui · 06-16-2014, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

Do people just want to overlook the fact that he willfully slept with Melisandre and kept his wife around?

On the advice of his wife, mind. Selyse was the R'hillor devotee who converted her husband.

Quote:

He's kind of a dick, and not really all that great a ruler. He has a self imposed legalistic/moralistic code, but he ignores it when it suits him. He's personally overseen people who were loyal to him burned alive.

How do we know he isn't that great of a ruler? After all, Storm's End held out for a year of siege under him. He seems to inspire great loyalty in those under his command (it doesn't hurt that he is the best battle commander in Westeros).

Quote:

When you're trying to pick between the different rulers still alive in Westeros sure, he's not bad. But that's like saying that the guy who shoved grandma down the stairs for her welfare check is a pretty cool guy when you're looking at the inmates of San Quentin.

Personally, I root for Stannis. The guy is concerned with doing his duty and saving the realm from the Lannister scum - and Ned Stark trusted him (yes, I know that's not all that hard to do, but still).

ISiddiqui · 06-16-2014, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Yeah, it was probably Renly who would have made the best king, as he understood the whole point of winning the people's trust/support as a key element of "kinging".

Though I refer you to the quote about Renly made by Cressen (prologue of Clash of Kings):
"The youngest of Lord Steffon's three sons had grown into a man bold but heedless, who acted from impulse rather than calculation. In that, as in so much else, Renly was like his brother Robert, and utterly unlike Stannis."

Robert was a favorite of the people as well.

And Donal Noye's words (in A Game of Thrones to Jon):
"Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He’ll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he’s copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day"

And this hilarious quote from Olenya Redwine (in Storm of Swords about Renly):
"He knew how to dress and he knew how to smile and he knew how to bathe, and somehow he got the notion that this made him fit to be king."

flere-imsaho · 06-16-2014, 01:15 PM

Well, absolutely, Imran. "Better king than either Stannis or Robert" probably isn't a high bar anyway.

ISiddiqui · 06-16-2014, 01:16 PM

But I think in the vast majority of Westeros, Renly and Robert were seen as much worse potential kings than Stannis.

flere-imsaho · 06-16-2014, 01:20 PM

Really?

NobodyHere · 06-16-2014, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

But I think in the vast majority of Westeros, Renly and Robert were seen as much worse potential kings than Stannis.

I got the exact opposite impression from the books.

ISiddiqui · 06-16-2014, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Really?

Yes really. Robert and Renly are charismatic and flashy and liked by the peasants, but the Lords know they are empty suits. (maybe I should have been clearer on that distinction)

flere-imsaho · 06-16-2014, 01:25 PM

Oh, by "vast majority of Westeros" I assumed you were saying everyone.

But, even having said that, I'd tend to assume most lords would want someone somewhat able to be influenced like Renly and Robert as opposed to the completely-unbending Stannis.

ISiddiqui · 06-16-2014, 01:27 PM

Well, you got an 'influenced' King in Robert and look what happened? The realm is up to its eyeballs in debt - while someone as smart as Littlefinger is Master of Coin.

flere-imsaho · 06-16-2014, 01:32 PM

But you're making the case that other Westerosi lords would want a strong, unyielding king. Given the proclivities of those Westerosi lords, that seems unlikely.

ISiddiqui · 06-16-2014, 01:32 PM

Anyways, I think it is not doubted that book readers tend to be more pro-Stannis than show watchers.

ISiddiqui · 06-16-2014, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

But you're making the case that other Westerosi lords would want a strong, unyielding king. Given the proclivities of those Westerosi lords, that seems unlikely.

A strong, unyielding king over a chaotic spendthrift king? I'd say so. Even if they lords are jockeying for position, having some sort of order is preferred.

flere-imsaho · 06-16-2014, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Anyways, I think it is not doubted that book readers tend to be more pro-Stannis than show watchers.

I'd agree with this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

A strong, unyielding king over a chaotic spendthrift king? I'd say so. Even if they lords are jockeying for position, having some sort of order is preferred.

But the period following Robert's Rebellion is generally regarded as a Pax Baratheon is it not?

I mean, I see your point, I'm just not sure I agree.

flere-imsaho · 06-16-2014, 01:39 PM

Question: Did Jojen Reed's eyes flash blue just before he was incinerated? If so, why would he become a White Walker instead of just a Wight? Was that another Clue about the Others?

06-05-2014, 10:49 AM	#1604
ISiddiqui Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Decatur, GA	Well, it'd be good to have a young Cersei so they could show the fortune teller telling her that one of her brothers would kill her - I think that while she's been focusing on Tyrion doing it, it'll end up being Jamie. __________________ "A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams

06-05-2014, 10:54 AM	#1607
Ronnie Dobbs3 High School Varsity Join Date: Feb 2013	Also, if a leaked audition tape for Obara Sand is accurate (but might be false dialogue merely for the audition) Season 5 and possibly future book spoilers Spoiler Jaime Lannister has been sighted sneaking into Dorne. Could be fake, could be replacing Balon Swann, or (unlikely) could be future Jamie plot we've yet to read http://winteriscoming.net/2014/06/04...-five-changes/

06-05-2014, 11:07 AM	#1610
ISiddiqui Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Decatur, GA	It amused me. I think people were more about the "let's get on with it" because they thought that Dance would end with the Second Battle of Meereen. In re-reading Dance, it is much more amusing because you realize that Battle will be in Winds. __________________ "A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams

06-05-2014, 02:26 PM	#1613
ISiddiqui Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Decatur, GA	The last 3rd of Book 5 was pretty awesome. Unfortunately the first 2/3rds was like Book 1 exposition Hell most of the time. __________________ "A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams

06-06-2014, 10:47 AM	#1616
Thomkal Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Surfside Beach,SC USA	Want to be a character in the series and killed off in an horrible way? Got $20,000? George RR Martin Wants To Write You Into Game Of Thrones, Kill You Off One person at random who donates anything will get the chance to fly (with a friend) to New Mexico to have dinner with GRRM and ask any and all Game of Thrones questions. Last edited by Thomkal : 06-06-2014 at 10:49 AM.

06-05-2014, 11:02 AM	#1609
Coffee Warlord Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Colorado Springs	I think you're the first person I've heard call the Tyrion/Penny stuff 'fun'.

06-05-2014, 11:11 AM	#1611
Ronnie Dobbs3 High School Varsity Join Date: Feb 2013	A Reddit thread Dicussing how S5 will likely look, germane to this discussion. The top two comments by BryndenBFish in particular. What changes would you make to A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons while adapting them for the show?

06-05-2014, 08:29 PM	#1614
DaddyTorgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Massachusetts	I'm rereading Feast and then Dance at the moment.

06-15-2014, 09:15 PM	#1617
sabotai General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Satellite of Love	Some departures from the book in that last episode, although I did enjoy the Brienne vs. The Hound fight. I'm on book 5 now (~10% into it) and I'm guessing they jumped deeper into book 5 with Bran's storyline there at the end?

06-15-2014, 09:24 PM	#1618
NobodyHere Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2013	Any details for non-HBO watchers? __________________ "I am God's prophet, and I need an attorney"

06-15-2014, 09:25 PM	#1619
ISiddiqui Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Decatur, GA	I heard there was no Lady Stoneheart. Leaving it for next season it seems (well it was at the end of A Feast for Crows). __________________ "A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams

06-15-2014, 09:35 PM	#1620
sabotai General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Satellite of Love	Nope, no Lady Stoneheart yet.

06-15-2014, 11:01 PM	#1621
RainMaker Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Chicago, IL	Are they definitely going to do Lady Stoneheart or is there a chance the character will be completely skipped over?

06-15-2014, 11:29 PM	#1622
ISiddiqui Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Decatur, GA	I can't imagine that GRRM wrote Lady Stoneheart in the series to have her do nothing important. And since she likely will do something important, they have to have her in the series, right? __________________ "A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams

06-16-2014, 12:40 AM	#1623
Chief Rum Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Where Hip Hop lives	Wasn't Lady Stoneheart at the end of Storm of Swords? Her part at the end of A Feast For Crows was where she and the Brotherhood encountered Brienne if I recall correctly. __________________ . . I would rather be wrong...Than live in the shadows of your song...My mind is open wide...And now I'm ready to start...You're not sure...You open the door...And step out into the dark...Now I'm ready.

06-16-2014, 07:25 AM	#1624
flere-imsaho Coordinator Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Chicagoland	I personally suspect they're not going to do Lady Stoneheart. I think the character is one GRRM created because it was neat, but ended up not having a significant role for in the rest of his roadmap for the story. As in, she'll be a catalyst for certain actions, but not a major player. And if that's the case, there are plenty of other characters being used by the show that could provide that catalyst function.

06-16-2014, 07:32 AM	#1625
Coffee Warlord Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Colorado Springs	I'm suspecting the same, though they left it at a point where it'd be easy for Brienne to encounter her at the start of next season. RIP Hound and Ayra Show. You were fun, though I'm ready for some House of Black and White.

06-16-2014, 08:18 AM	#1626
DaddyTorgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Massachusetts	My thoughts on the last few weeks: -Hound vs. Brienne was fun. Gives Brienne more of a badass vibe, which is why I suppose they made the change. -Don't like what they changed with Sansa's story personally. I guess they're just trying to simplify it for viewers and all, but eh. She was looking very fetching in that dress backlit by the light though. And it definitely enables them to go faster on skeezy-Littlefinger I guess. -I liked that we got basically a full episode at the Wall (or so it felt like). Appropriate gravitas. -Byebye Tywin. -Dragons!! -Ummm - Children of the Forest & Bloodraven!! Fuck yeah! Last edited by DaddyTorgo : 06-16-2014 at 08:20 AM.

06-16-2014, 08:23 AM	#1627
bronconick College Starter Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Kalamazoo, MI	If Varys stays on the boat, I wonder if they're cutting that (clunky to me) revelation at the epilogue of book 5.

06-16-2014, 08:48 AM	#1628
Coffee Warlord Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Colorado Springs	Given his love for writing about boat travel, clearly Martin just used his influence to make the showmakers put even MORE people on boats.

06-16-2014, 08:51 AM	#1629
ISiddiqui Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Decatur, GA	Varys will just come back at some point. Besides, that scene is one of my favorite scenes in the enter books - it better not be cut!! Anyways, my fears with the 9th episode and moving Stannis's salvation of the Night's Watch to the 10th episode are realized. Stannis's heroism gets lost in the Tywin dying, Arya leaving plots. Oh well. In the books, Stannis is an unyielding legalistic, but generally respectable guy. In the series, he seems like a villain. __________________ "A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams

06-16-2014, 10:53 AM	#1632
Ronnie Dobbs3 High School Varsity Join Date: Feb 2013	I wonder if the portrayal of Stannis is because they know where this is headed; shading him appropriately for the heel turn? Though this would be complicated by the Battle of Winterfell I would think.

06-16-2014, 12:16 PM	#1636
flere-imsaho Coordinator Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Chicagoland	Commentary / speculation from a book reader on another board I frequent. I agree with much of this, though I still suspect Lady Stoneheart may not be in the show: Spoiler Alright, so the things I have to say about Ep 9, Ep 10, and Season 4 kind of blur together so bear with me. King's Landing: The non-combat trial, buildup, combat trial, and Jaime's farewell to his brother all feel executed perfectly to me. Tyrion's finale could've stood some more buildup, but I'm rather good with the speed of it. I, for one, don't need or even particularly want the "where do whores go" existential drugery. So much of that thread going forward is internal. Not only did that make for slooooooow reading, conveying that to a visual medium would likely turn off viewers faster than these slight differences start ruffling the feathers of my fellow literati. Tyrion strangling Shae still made sense (from a plot perspective...it was kind of fast from a physical perspective), given he's already pushed to the brink and given up on his family and the Seven Kingdoms. On a side note, Cersei's threat to Tywin makes Tywin's death just that much more painful. The look on his face after she tells him shows that Tywin realizes his "legacy" completely unravels itself soon. So Tywin leads his death scene with the typical commanding, dismissal tone he always gives his children. His backpedaling grows in desperation as he realizes Tyrion refuses to recognize his authority anymore. Varys's departure from King's Landing with Tyrion works well in a lot of ways, since we're never certain what Varys went about doing after Tywin's death. This carries a few side-effects intended primarily for the show/illiterati, but could also prove a boon to literati: we get more screen-time with Varys, which is a great thing. I enjoy the performance for the acting's sake itself and I always feel even Varys's appearance tells me something important is happening...and if you're not seeing it, then it's happening in the shadows. We'll also see the connection between Varys and Magister Illyrio. The link to the east will help set things up so much better when "Aegon" and Danerys start to move west. The Wall: The biggest complaints stem from how this got dragged out. This could have been due to which actors they had on contract and what needed to happen with them. I'm not sure. But between Stannis dragging his feet to get north and the bizarre storming of Craster's Keep, this thread felt completely off-pace. Ygritte's fury and death may have hit harder had the battle taken place much sooner in the season. I feel like the battle needed to sit in at the mid-season and not take an entire episode. Cutting the entire Craster's Keep portion would've allowed for the arrival of Stannis in episode 6 or 7, allow Stannis to do something other than refinance and relocate, and given us time for at least the 998th Lord Commander Campaign Season...if not the election itself. Arguably, the extra time wasted on The Wall built up more resentment for the Jon Snow/Wall thread and took away time from other much-needed threads (the start of the Mereen Insurgency/Operation Slave Freedom, Who Cares About the Iron Islanders). Bran and the Far North: It's about time! Seeing a Child and magic certainly remind us that there's more to this world than politics, sex, and gruesome deaths. I couldn't really tell if those skeletons were wights per se, but seeing them in combat for once really puts the danger in the North in perspective. Also, seeing them hostile and not under the control of the Old Man or the Child tells me that the Old Man doesn't necessarily represent The Other. I'm looking forward to seeing exactly what the Old Man teaches Bran, since I imagine it'll develop a bit faster than the books. Jojen's death really didn't do much for me, as I felt like he was just an exposition fairy that showed up right from nowhere. Jojen could've been Bran's Tyler Durden for all I cared. Might've actually made the thread more interesting. Danerys and Mereen: Is it me, or was the goat-roasting wasting time? Couldn't they have just skipped to the little girl? Danerys's story came grinding down to slowness before she even set foot in Mereen...one change I didn't welcome from the books. Ah well. Hopefully, season 5 delivers on its promise of a heavily edited AFFC/ADWD combination and gets us all the way to her first dragon ride with reclaiming her true Khaleesi respect. Brienne/Arya intersection: probably the absolute most welcome change from the book. Brienne's fight with The Hound was both brutal and yet surprisingly (and refreshingly) not gruesome for this show. The Hound's defense of her does seem a bit out of place, but he knows someone will pay serious money for her. Whoever made the decision to combine these together needs a decent bonus and pat on the back. Not only do we finally get to see a liberated Arya free to pursue her Faceless career aspirations, but we also see Brienne's desperation and guilt of her failures (Renly, Catelyn, accepting Jaime Lannister's aid, and now Arya). This buildup will actually make Stoneheart's appearance just that much more vicious. Speaking of which...yeah. Stoneheart didn't appear. Get over it. We've got enough threads going on that the last thing we needed was a cliffhanger of another thread tangent. Remember how the cliffhanger of season 2 got resolved? (Sam surrounded by wights and White Walkers to Sam rejoining the remaining Night's Watch after a major off-screen battle) I'd rather not have another major cliffhanger tied up by so much off-screen development, thank you. We also need to get Jaime moving out of King's Landing before Stoneheart's appearance really feels threatening to sympathetic characters. I'm not sure how they'll do that now, unless the Blackfish is maintaining an army in counter-siege mode in Riverrun for some reason. Season 4 took some weird detours of filler. While not as egregious as some of the Season 3 filler, still too much. One thing that both helps and hurts this show is the lack of any date/hard passage of time reference. It helps the show because the plot isn't restricted the intricate puzzling together of threads based on logical timing. It hurts because keeping track of what's happening when is pretty fuzzy. For instance, I feel like maybe a month of time passed at The Wall for the whole season...but somewhere between one and three months passed in Mereen. The Purple Wedding buildup might've taken a month, but the trial up to Tyrion's escape could've only been two weeks. I have no reference to know. This combination of filler and relativistic time leaves me spinning a bit on event progression in Season 4.

06-16-2014, 01:15 PM	#1639
flere-imsaho Coordinator Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Chicagoland	Well, absolutely, Imran. "Better king than either Stannis or Robert" probably isn't a high bar anyway.

06-16-2014, 01:16 PM	#1640
ISiddiqui Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Decatur, GA	But I think in the vast majority of Westeros, Renly and Robert were seen as much worse potential kings than Stannis. __________________ "A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams

06-16-2014, 01:20 PM	#1641
flere-imsaho Coordinator Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Chicagoland	Really?

06-16-2014, 01:25 PM	#1644
flere-imsaho Coordinator Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Chicagoland	Oh, by "vast majority of Westeros" I assumed you were saying everyone. But, even having said that, I'd tend to assume most lords would want someone somewhat able to be influenced like Renly and Robert as opposed to the completely-unbending Stannis.

06-16-2014, 01:27 PM	#1645
ISiddiqui Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Decatur, GA	Well, you got an 'influenced' King in Robert and look what happened? The realm is up to its eyeballs in debt - while someone as smart as Littlefinger is Master of Coin. __________________ "A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams Last edited by ISiddiqui : 06-16-2014 at 01:28 PM.

06-16-2014, 01:32 PM	#1646
flere-imsaho Coordinator Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Chicagoland	But you're making the case that other Westerosi lords would want a strong, unyielding king. Given the proclivities of those Westerosi lords, that seems unlikely.

06-16-2014, 01:32 PM	#1647
ISiddiqui Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Decatur, GA	Anyways, I think it is not doubted that book readers tend to be more pro-Stannis than show watchers. __________________ "A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams

06-16-2014, 01:39 PM	#1650
flere-imsaho Coordinator Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Chicagoland	Question: Did Jojen Reed's eyes flash blue just before he was incinerated? If so, why would he become a White Walker instead of just a Wight? Was that another Clue about the Others?

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