OT: A Song of Ice and Fire Series (spoilers inside)

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Well that's less than the Hannibal Lecter books right?

Or the guy who used to write the Redwall series.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Or the guy who used to write the Redwall series.

RIP Brian Jacques

I loved those books

[Vince, Pt. II]

Yeah, the Redwall series probably has some cookbooks beat for amount of food described.

[NobodyHere]

Or just get the cookbook



Or, sticking to the thread subject, get this cookbook!

[bronconick]

Well, Wyman Manderly had ..kinds of food in ASOIAF.

[ISiddiqui]

So I've heard some folks get really pissed about the fact that Lysa's revelation that she killed Jon happened now rather than during the "Only Cat" scene. I do think it would have been much more powerful then, but I don't think it entirely ruins that scene.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

So I've heard some folks get really pissed about the fact that Lysa's revelation that she killed Jon happened now rather than during the "Only Cat" scene. I do think it would have been much more powerful then, but I don't think it entirely ruins that scene.

i couldnt remember if she every made this admission in the books...was wondering if it was a HBO created thing (like bran being captured)

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by saldana

i couldnt remember if she every made this admission in the books...was wondering if it was a HBO created thing (like bran being captured)

Same here. My wife looked at me during that scene and I told her that I didn't remember that at all.

[MrBug708]

Me too. I must have totally missed that in books

[Vince, Pt. II]

Definitely happened in the books.

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

Reddit full explanation

Obviously book spoilers abound.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

Definitely happened in the books.

Yep... right before Lysa was shoved through the Moon Door by Littlefinger.

[flere-imsaho]

Agree with this: How Game of Thrones the Show Is Telling a Better Story than the Books | Vanity Fair

Quote:

As a Game of Thrones book reader, I’m often accused of being a purist. And I must admit that, in the past, I’ve believed that the HBO show is at its best when it sticks closely to the books.

...

But as much as I admire George R.R. Martin’s saga, turns of phrase, and dramatic highs, as we move forward in the series, it’s no longer possible to ignore the flaws in his books. Impossible for us to ignore, and impossible for the show to ignore. So what we’ve seen, increasingly, is a show going off-book. That is to say, almost every scene in this episode that wasn’t Tyrion’s trial? That was off-book. Yara going to rescue her brother Theon? Davos pleading Stannis’s case? Off-book. The small council meeting with the comedy stylings of Mace Tyrell? Off-book. That fantastic conversation between Varys and Oberyn? Off-book. Even Hizdahr’s speech to Dany about reclaiming the body of his father was off-book. And as much as the book purist in me wants to revolt, I can’t deny that what the show is doing here is very smart. In fact, they might be telling a better story than the books.

There's more.


But anyway, up until this point the changes have seemed relatively minor, and mainly in the service of a) cutting down on the number of characters or b) getting rid of stuff that wouldn't work on TV. But with the most recent episode we're seeing changes that are more significant. The Yarra / Asha storyline will now develop quite differently, and probably Theon as well, somewhat. Will Stannis end up doing his ill-fated march through the snow with the Northmen? Will Stannis even end up at the wall (well yes, probably).

Yes, there's still Cersei's shame, Margaery's imprisonment, episodes with the Sand Snakes in Dorne (maybe?), the Connington stuff, Mereen and Arya, etc....

But if you think about what's in the books, and the speed at which things are going, is there enough for more than one more season before they run out of book material (unless they slow way down)?

I suspect next season sees both Tyrion & Arya overseas, Dany faffing about more in Mereen, some stuff in Dorne to keep the sex on the screen, the only real martial stuff happening with Stannis both at the wall and campaigning in the north and Bran making it underground (though I could definitely see that happening this season, and if it does, then we almost certainly see stuff from Bran next season that is in no current book).

If all that goes that way, then, what ends up happening:

1. The next book gets released before Season 6 and all is cool.
2. The next book is further delayed so a Season 6 gets further delayed.
3. The series goes past the books.

I still think the series will end with the TV show first, then the books, and Martin will proclaim some sort of new content "paradigm". Which it will be, of course, though it was not intended to be, and certainly is no credit to him.

I also think it's interesting that as the series has headed into the books where the bloat really started, they've streamlined more-and-more.

Anyway, that's your rampant speculation for the day.

[ISiddiqui]

I don't think I agree with the article at all. I think the author misses why people fell in love with the books. It's not for the same reasons people watch the show - at least not specifically. Yes, book readers and show watchers both enjoy the political wheeling dealing in a fantasy realm, but the book readers love the backstory, the history, the lore. Yes, Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons slowed down the story, but Feast for Crows also introduced Dorne and went deeper into the Iron Islands.

I mean, I'm reading the Tales of Dunk & Egg, which are short stories in other compilations because I want to know more of the background of Westeros (and I now somewhat know the lineage of the Mad King Aerys II - at least up to Daeron II, his great-great-grandfather, who survived the Blackfyre Rebellion, which btw, also included Bloodraven - who was the Hand of the King of Daeron, even though he was a Great Bastard as well.) Yes, some of us are as dorky as the Lord of the Rings fans who read the Silmarillion over and over again - but that's what we love about the books, the rich world it has created.

I really think that the author's ideas of how the show makes the watchers invested in Oberyn and Davos seems to infer that book readers weren't really invested in Oberyn or Davos, to which I would say... WTF?!!!

Also, I do think that the shows invention of plots are there because they know that they can't fill all of the plots from Feast and Dance in 1 season. At least in a few instances it will take a few seasons and therefore, they'll need to do "fill in" add ons.

[sabotai]

But as much as I admire George R.R. Martin’s saga, turns of phrase, and dramatic highs, as we move forward in the series, it’s no longer possible to ignore the flaws in his books. Impossible for us to ignore, and impossible for the show to ignore. So what we’ve seen, increasingly, is a show going off-book. That is to say, almost every scene in this episode that wasn’t Tyrion’s trial? That was off-book. Yara going to rescue her brother Theon? Davos pleading Stannis’s case? Off-book. The small council meeting with the comedy stylings of Mace Tyrell? Off-book. That fantastic conversation between Varys and Oberyn? Off-book. Even Hizdahr’s speech to Dany about reclaiming the body of his father was off-book. And as much as the book purist in me wants to revolt, I can’t deny that what the show is doing here is very smart. In fact, they might be telling a better story than the books.

This is funny considering how many of the non-book readers mentioned in the other thread that they were bored with the episode until the trial scene(s).

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by sabotai

This is funny considering how many of the non-book readers mentioned in the other thread that they were bored with the episode until the trial scene(s).

I absolutely loved that episode because it featured so much great dialogue from characters I love from the books. Oberyn has come off great on screen, but I had the sense most show viewers disliked Davos (and Salladhor Saan), and his speech might've been my favorite part of the episode or even season.

It's not telling a "better story" but rather expanding on one - knowing all the background from the books is the key to enjoying that scene as much.

[ISiddiqui]

This is hilarious:

George R. R. Martin Explains Why He Writes Game of Thrones in DOS

GRRM writes Song of Ice and Fire on a DOS machine!

[DaddyTorgo]

Anybody want to see a couple pages of the World of Ice & Fire?

Seemingly excerpted at random, so they don't string together into a coherent narrative necessarily, but they'll give you an idea of what it'll be like...

[DanGarion]

[MrBug708]

I've been wondering this for a while, but who is Lord Paramount of the Stormlands? I know in spirit, it should be Stannis, but I'm assuming it's some lesser Lord who is pledged to the Iron Throne?

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

I don't believe it has been named since the war started. Perhaps it is the carrot to have someone take Storm's End.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs3

I don't believe it has been named since the war started.

Right. Wiki says Robert -> Renly -> Stannis.

[DaddyTorgo]

Oh, and FYI

Interesting post on Lena Hadley's Instagram last month (SFW, concerning a potential character).

http://instagram.com/p/nEeNM0PA3L/

[MrBug708]

I'm assuming that, as long as Stannis doesn't die, he'll likely end up back in the Stormlands? Unless Gendry ends up there first?

[Ronnie Dobbs3]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Right. Wiki says Robert -> Renly -> Stannis.

Is this accurate? I thought Stannis got passed over by Robert and it went to Renly. Renly died, and no one has since been named?

I mean I know Stannis has the castle, but we're talking official title.

[JPhillips]

Yeah, I'm not sure Stannis would use the title as he considers himself the King.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

I'm assuming that, as long as Stannis doesn't die, he'll likely end up back in the Stormlands? Unless Gendry ends up there first?

If he doesn't win the whole thing (Oh, the howling that would result... and I'd love it).

[MrBug708]

Well he hasn't been conquered yer so I'm assuming if he doesn't win the throne, he is either dead or bends the knee. If a Targ wins the throne, they probably want Dragonstone back. The Baratheon's, as I'm sure all of the houses, probably won't lose their Lord Paramount status. At least from where I'm sitting here

[ISiddiqui]

Have we considered that since Stannis's great grandfather was Aegon V Targaryen (why Robert got the throne after the rebellion, he was closest in line to the Targaryens once you take away Viserys and Daenerys), he could potentially be the 3rd dragon?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Yeah, I'm not sure Stannis would use the title as he considers himself the King.

He wouldn't use it, but it passes back to him. It's not like it just sits there vacant.

[Coffee Warlord]

I'm guessing for now it's something like this.

Technically speaking, Stannis is the current Lord Paramount of the Stormlands still.

From the Crown's point of view, the current titleholder is in rebellion. As it's still an active conflict (well, active for Martin's standards these days), there's no reason/basis to grant the disputed titles to someone else. It maintains the possibility (however unlikely), that Stannis could surrender and keep his lands/titles.

Long story short, there's no political reason to transfer the title until the "rebellion" is settled. The North's title wasn't moved until that war was basically settled, with the claimants very dead.

[flere-imsaho]

Must read, especially if you like speculation of the sort of "how are they going to fit book content into the end of this season and the upcoming season?"

http://io9.com/whats-in-store-for-yo...1582878876/all

[ISiddiqui]

So, from what I understand, they changed Sansa's (and LF's) story. Sansa reveals herself, seemingly like she's finally grasped the political stuff that LF was trying to teach her - though it seems like she got that exceedingly quickly.

I'm not sure I like the change. I enjoyed LF's scheming with Lyn Cobray and to try to marry off "Alayne" to Harrold Hardyng and Sansa gradually figuring out what LF was trying to do - kind of a political awakening.

[flere-imsaho]

I'm betting Sansa + Young Griff before it's all over. Maybe Varys makes this happen by getting one over on his "auld enemy" LF when the latter is brought low by his one "irrationality", that being his infatuation for Cat/Sansa.

Taken in that context all the Harrold stuff is irrelevant filler from the books.

[ISiddiqui]

If that's the way it works out .

In any case, Hardyng allows Sansa to claim the Vale for herself and Winterfell (though that claim would be in dispute if Davos finds Rickon in Skagos). I mean there is nothing saying that after the marriage, Hardyng finds himself having an unfortunate accident either.

And Aegon is going to find Arienne ready and willing to wed him before he runs into Sansa.

Though it'd be utterly hilarious if in the end it ends up being Sansa and Tyrion again .

[Vince, Pt. II]

I don't like the show change because it forces Littlefinger's hand and outs him to the Lannisters before they have actually fallen. This doesn't seem to play well with his character at all, as someone who is extremely careful and plays the game well.

[NobodyHere]

Has Sansa's and Tyrion's marriage ever officially been annulled? Could that be a factor later on?

[Coffee Warlord]

It was never consumated. They mentioned in the books a few times that implied it was never "official".

[NobodyHere]

oic

[ISiddiqui]

Yeah, I think they can get out of it as both Sansa and Tyrion will indicate lack of consummation (of course, Tyrion is in Essos so can't be asked but I doubt that will much of a stumbling block). I am guessing that Cersei may try to advance the idea that the marriage was consummated, but no one will believe her (esp not after her Walk of Shame).

[Barkeep49]

The news yesterday that Martin needs (perhaps) an 8th book was not encouraging. It feels more and more that HBO is going to have the only complete telling of the story when all is said and done.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

The news yesterday that Martin needs (perhaps) an 8th book was not encouraging. It feels more and more that HBO is going to have the only complete telling of the story when all is said and done.

To be fair, late last week, his publisher said Winds of Winter was coming "soon", which is a good deal faster than expected, based on past performance. I think the presence of the HBO show is pushing Martin abit (finally).

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

To be fair, late last week, his publisher said Winds of Winter was coming "soon", which is a good deal faster than expected, based on past performance. I think the presence of the HBO show is pushing Martin abit (finally).

I dunno - I read that article by his publisher and soon was basically a BS word. Summarizing, from what I remember, she said basically: "It's coming soon. I haven't seen anymore of it to proof in a long time, but it's coming soon."

Which tells me nothing. Actually, edit: it tells me it's farther away then we think, or else she'd have significantly more of it edited and ready to go by now. Or at least would have freaking seen it.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

The news yesterday that Martin needs (perhaps) an 8th book was not encouraging. It feels more and more that HBO is going to have the only complete telling of the story when all is said and done.

It was basically rumor nonsense. His publisher was asked if it'd go more than 7 books and she said, well they said Seven Books for Seven Kingdoms and then when going over the Worlds of Ice and Fire book, she noticed 8 kingdoms (which is false - the Riverlands were not a Kingdom but under the rulership of the Iron Islands at the time of Aegon's Conquest.

Here is her (the publisher's) interview:
George R.R. Martin’s book editor hints at eighth book in fantasy epic - Salon.com

Here is Martin saying he is still planning on 7 books:
George R.R. Martin clarifies his publishing plan | Inside TV | EW.com

[flere-imsaho]

Yeah, whatever. I'm sticking with my prediction that HBO finishes the story, some other writer does a novelization of the unwritten books (which, heck, could be way more than 7 because why not cash in), and GRRM proclaims GoT an exciting new paradigm in multi-media storytelling.

[ISiddiqui]

There is no way in Hell that GRRM allows another writer to finish his story (in book form). The only way that could happen is if Martin dies.

[flere-imsaho]

Well, I don't know GRRM personally, but I contend it's not outside the realm of possibility that he could eventually come around to the idea that someone else could ghost write significant sections of the remaining books that he could then "finish" and/or "edit". I say this because it has been clear for ages that he's suffering from considerable writer's block, due to many reasons. Having someone else do the heavy lifting that he then finishes off could be tempting.

And it's not without precedent, as in some cases that's what the screenwriters have been doing already, with what content has made it to the screen which is not in a written book. It's still a jump, but then again, I'm just speculating.

And then yes, another option is that this would happen if he were to lamentably pass before completing the books.

Which furthers my point, to be honest. Even if GRRM plan to finish all the books, if he thinks of his mortality at all, wouldn't he want some "control" should he shuffle off the mortal coil early? Specifically, pick the person who would finish the books? And if he does that, would it be a big step to maybe have that person help now, proactively?

Again, speculation, and probably not going to happen.

But if it does I'm going to quote this post and say "neener-neener."

[ISiddiqui]

Recall this was the guy who rejected movie offers for Song of Ice and Fire because they couldn't do it justice. He accepted HBO's offer because he felt that 10 eps a season actually could do it justice and even then the deal had to include bringing GRRM on for stuff (how many other authors become co-executive producers of an adaptation of their works).

He's not one that gives away control that easily.

[flere-imsaho]

I am not, at all, denying that you have a point, Imran. And your scenario is still the far more likely eventuality. Besides indulging in random speculation, what I think I'm doing is outlining the second-most-likely option at this point, which could become more likely if either a) the show really outstrips the books and/or b) Martin starts worrying about his mortality.



But on the same topic, given how fast the show has gone and how slow the books are to come, isn't it now more-or-less a certainty that they'll catch up in a season or two? This is an honest question, not a sarcastic one. I've read a lot of criticism & analysis, but no one's really laid out when and how they'd run out of written content. Anyone want to take a stab?

[ISiddiqui]

I have a feeling, based on some publisher comments, that Winds of Winter shows up by 2015 (and likely right before or right after Season 6 of the show).

There is more than enough material for 2 seasons from combining Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons (the people who say nothing happens haven't particularly thought that through - also there are lots of minor storylines they could milk).

I think the issue becomes when the 7th book comes out. Winds of Winter will make it in time to make a few season out of it (I mean apparently three major battles were shuffled to early in Winds from Dance - because Dance was getting a bit big).

Though if Winds comes out soon, GRRM may be determined to work double (triple?) time to get Dream of Summer out by the start of Season 8 or 9, depending (maybe even the same day the season starts the book comes out?)