The Trump Presidency – 2016

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Wouldnt the whole voter fraud issue be solved by making everyone show a picture ID when they vote?

No.

Because the goal isn't to solve voter impersonation fraud. If it was we could already declare victory. If that wouldn't work we could hand out free IDs.

The goal is to make it harder for Dem groups to vote. That's why these laws are almost always paired with rules limiting early voting or reducing polling places or making it illegal for clerks to tell people where they should vote, etc.

[cuervo72]

Ok. Are you going to guarantee that the places that provide the ID are readily accessible, both as a function of distance and hours? i.e. would a single, working mother who doesn't drive be able to travel to get an ID without making any major arrangements to deal with work (many jobs aren't going to let you just take off half a day willy-nilly) or childcare?

I'm not sure I would call an ID "inexpensive" if I had to miss half of a day of work to get it. Or travel 50 miles to find the nearest office.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Why would it have to be free?
An ID is pretty inexpensive.

1) you're either willfully ignorant, or a moron. I'll let you decide.

In 5-Year Effort, Scant Evidence of Voter Fraud - The New York Times

The Bush Administration spent FIVE YEARS chasing down this voter fraud unicorn and they found enough evidence to get 86 convictions, more than 30 of which amounted to "Sheriff Joe P. Asslicker paid voters to vote for him" sort.

2) Your lack of understanding of basic civics is showing. The 24th Amendment prohibits poll taxes - which is what Southern states used to keep those pesky darkies from voting, along with things like "was your grandfather a citizen?" and literacy tests that were literally designed in such a way that the poll worker had leeway to determine whether or not the person taking it was a "good" voter without having to admit it was about skin color.

Saying "well, an ID isn't THAT expensive" is still a financial roadblock to voting, no matter how minor you find it, and that's FUCKING UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

I mean, are we done here? Are you ready to let go of this "voter fraud is a thing and costs Republicans elections" canard, or is this math you do as a Republican to make yourself feel better?

[miked]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Why would it have to be free?
An ID is pretty inexpensive.

If you are going to require something for a constitutional right, should it not be free or very easy? Would you say that if I created a law that said you need a state ID to vote, but then closed down the places to get them in all the counties with large minority populations, that I am attempting to disenfranchise people? Welcome to Alabama.

By the way, check this out. I'm not overly dumb, but this is pretty confusing.

http://www.alabamavoterid.com/getfreephotovoterid.aspx

[larrymcg421]

Poll workers aren't police officers or bartenders. ("He could be a fucking bartender for all we know!") I've used ID's that have very old pictures of me and look nothing like how I look now with no problem and not even a squint from the worker to see if that really is me. I bet if I found Ben's old SC driver's license lying on the ground, I could present it at his SC precinct and vote without issue.

[larrymcg421]

Also, a poll tax is a poll tax, even if the tax is a very low amount. It's unconstitutional to charge for a document you need to vote.

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Poll workers aren't police officers or bartenders. ("He could be a fucking bartender for all we know!") I've used ID's that have very old pictures of me and look nothing like how I look now with no problem and not even a squint from the worker to see if that really is me. I bet if I found Ben's old SC driver's license lying on the ground, I could present it at his SC precinct and vote without issue.

Just show them the patriotic undies pic and you're in.

[tarcone]

Why wouldnt you have an ID already? And are you that racist to assume that a person living in a lower socio-economic area doesnt have the wherewithall to get an ID?

How is that a poll tax? You need IDs for a lot of things in life. So it is best to have one, in general.

[JPhillips]

It's best to have health insurance, but making people buy that is apparently an act of tyranny. The cost is lower, but the principle is the same with a mandatory ID fee.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I bet if I found Ben's old SC driver's license lying on the ground, I could present it at his SC precinct and vote without issue.

My SC license says that it is good through December 2017, so since moving I have kept it with me as a backup just in case I lose the NC one. One day last week I went to drop off my youngest at preschool and the office admin stopped me and said "Someone found your driver's license on the ground and turned it in. You haven't gotten a NC driver's license yet?"

Yeah, it was the SC license...lying on the ground...just a few days ago.

So, uh, Larry, how long ya been stalkin' me???????????

[JPhillips]

Apparently Trump has doubled the dues for membership at Mar-a-Lago.

Good thing we didn't elect crooked Hillary.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

It's best to have health insurance, but making people buy that is apparently an act of tyranny. The cost is lower, but the principle is the same with a mandatory ID fee.

Are you really equating health insurance to an ID?
That has to be the weakest argument I have seen you come with.
Spending hundreds to thousands a year on something is not the same as spending $10 every 6 years. And you need an ID for multiple purposes. Not just to vote.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Apparently Trump has doubled the dues for membership at Mar-a-Lago.

Good thing we didn't elect crooked Hillary.

From your mouth to my ears. It is a great thing we didnt elect HRC

[JPhillips]

"This isn't just about the 2016 election. This is about the integrity of our voting system," Spicer said, responding to a reporter's question on Trump's announcement that he will order an investigation into voter fraud.

"Attorneys who were representing the President-elect during the recounts in several states emphatically stated 'All available evidence suggests the 2016 election was not tainted by fraud or mistake,'" the reporter pressed. "How do you square those two things?"

"There's a lot of states that we didn't compete in where that's not necessarily the case. You look at California and New York, we didn't look at those two states in particular," Spicer said. "I mean, as the president has noted before, he campaigned to win the electoral college, not the popular vote."

He said that Trump would have campaigned more in "big states, very populous states in urban areas" if he was trying to win the popular vote.

"But he played the game according to the rules of the game, which is electoral strategy," Spicer said. "That being said, I think when you look at where a lot of these issues could have occurred in bigger states, that's where I think we're going to look."

They're not even trying to hide it.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Are you really equating health insurance to an ID?
That has to be the weakest argument I have seen you come with.
Spending hundreds to thousands a year on something is not the same as spending $10 every 6 years. And you need an ID for multiple purposes. Not just to vote.

The principle is the same. If not, I'm curious at what dollar amount tyranny kicks in.

[digamma]

While the video is kind of funny, it doesn't appear to be the most scientific study.

Data I've seen suggests about 1 in 10 don't have IDs for whatever reason, young and haven't gotten one, old and don't need one, poor, rich and get driven everywhere, whatever. The data also shows that you are three times more likely not to have an ID if you are a minority.

So, we're basically forcing 10% of the voting population to jump through an extra hoop to vote, and it most often costs something (which is a poll tax) and data shows it disproportionately affects minorities.

It doesn't seem like a big deal because it's just a little ID, but I think it is.

[tarcone]

Its tyranny to have a state ID? Which you need to do multiple things in life.
IDs are not required, but are recommended. They are easily obtainable. For anyone.
Why is it that big a deal to have one ot vote?
Who will it hurt?

[cuervo72]

What if you're getting a new ID? My aunt recently had to transfer her license to PA, from CA. She initially couldn't complete the process because PA found that GA (where she lived before CA) never canceled her license there, and until that got done PA couldn't do anything. She eventually got her license (btw, current license wasn't good enough, she needed her SS card too), but she spent an entire day there (possibly more - I can't find the post, but I think she had visited once and found out about the GA snafu, then had to go back again later).

My other aunt is in her 50s and just got her license. Not sure what she used as ID prior to that.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Why wouldnt you have an ID already? And are you that racist to assume that a person living in a lower socio-economic area doesnt have the wherewithall to get an ID?

How is that a poll tax? You need IDs for a lot of things in life. So it is best to have one, in general.

1) Oh, lots of reasons. Maybe you grew up poor. Your family couldn't afford a car, so you took public transit where you need to go. School, the store, work, whatever. Or you walked. None of those things need an ID. Maybe you're older, and were born in a time and place where registration of birth wasn't compulsory. The strictures placed on acceptable documents by Republican pushes for voter ID law mean that you may not have the ability to produce the required documents, so where you may have lived without one perfectly well before, you're now in a place where the need for one is being pressed on you by external forces and your ability to actually get one has increased difficulty attached.

2) lower socio-economic status has nothing to do with race, you dumb chucklefuck. Do areas of greater poverty have greater diversity? Frequently, yes! But to the extent that you mentally equate "poor" with "people of color," you are proving Democrats and affiliated organizations protesting these laws correct about their intent.

3) a poll tax is any compulsory financial gate between the voter and the poll. If an ID is required to vote, that means the state cannot charge for the ID. It doesn't. fucking. MATTER. How ubiquitous the uses for that ID may be outside the polling place. You cannot place a financial impediment between a prospective voter and his or her ability to cast a ballot for the politician or initiative of their choice. It doesn't matter how pure your intentions. It ain't constitutional.

"You need an ID for so many other things what's the big deal get over it prevent voter fraud" probably makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, but as we've been over, oh, COUNTLESS times for the last 8 years, the prevalence of voter impersonation fraud is vanishingly low. Provable fraud in general is a fraction of a fraction of a percent of ballots cast in the last several elections - and to the extent it's provable, it's generally not impersonation fraud. It's the sort of fraud that ID doesn't catch in real time. Maybe it's getting paid off by a local candidate to vote for them. Maybe it's confusion over which precinct you're supposed to vote at and attempting to vote at multiple precincts (this, uh, is a thing that Donald Trump did, by the way). Maybe it's "it doesn't matter who votes, it matters who counts the votes," in which case ID does fuck all to preserve the integrity of elections.

Pick any or all of those. Voter ID laws make the public feel warm and fuzzy inside while a) having zero impact on electoral outcomes and b) doing precisely nothing to combat the types of fraud which actually COULD affect the outcome of races.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by digamma

While the video is kind of funny, it doesn't appear to be the most scientific study.

Data I've seen suggests about 1 in 10 don't have IDs for whatever reason, young and haven't gotten one, old and don't need one, poor, rich and get driven everywhere, whatever. The data also shows that you are three times more likely not to have an ID if you are a minority.

So, we're basically forcing 10% of the voting population to jump through an extra hoop to vote, and it most often costs something (which is a poll tax) and data shows it disproportionately affects minorities.

It doesn't seem like a big deal because it's just a little ID, but I think it is.

So minorities choose not to get an id. Which is required to do many things in life. But not to vote. Because who cares who you are? Just come on down and vote.
And that extra hoop takes all of maybe an hour. That costs all of $10?
A poll tax? How do they buy alcohol? or csh a check?

And that video shows blacks who are in a lower socio-economic area, laughing at you guys. Because you think they are too stupid or poor to get an ID.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

My SC license says that it is good through December 2017, so since moving I have kept it with me as a backup just in case I lose the NC one. One day last week I went to drop off my youngest at preschool and the office admin stopped me and said "Someone found your driver's license on the ground and turned it in. You haven't gotten a NC driver's license yet?"

Yeah, it was the SC license...lying on the ground...just a few days ago.

So, uh, Larry, how long ya been stalkin' me???????????

Haha, that's hilarious. I was mostly mad that your ID was for SC and not MI/WI/PA where it could've done more good. My fraudulent vote was completely wasted in SC.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

2) lower socio-economic status has nothing to do with race, you dumb chucklefuck. .

Race had already come up as a reason, and this is a personal attack. One week.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by tarcone

So minorities choose not to get an id. Which is required to do many things in life. But not to vote. Because who cares who you are? Just come on down and vote.
And that extra hoop takes all of maybe an hour. That costs all of $10?
A poll tax? How do they buy alcohol? or csh a check?

And that video shows blacks who are in a lower socio-economic area, laughing at you guys. Because you think they are too stupid or poor to get an ID.

OK as a hypothetical, let's ignore the data and say you're right that I think minorities are too stupid or poor to get an ID. How does that change the fact that you're making someone jump through an extra hoop to exercise a constitutional right?

You are a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

[nol]

Originally Posted by tarcone

So minorities choose not to get an id. Which is required to do many things in life. But not to vote. Because who cares who you are? Just come on down and vote.
And that extra hoop takes all of maybe an hour. That costs all of $10?
A poll tax? How do they buy alcohol? or csh a check?

"Maybe an hour." What a moron. Also would like to hear of one specific thing besides voting that an old person who takes public transportation needs a photo ID for.

[cuervo72]

Heh, actually it looks like my aunt did have to go there twice. Also found this reply to her ordeal:

When I sold my home and moved from Forsyth county to Fulton county, I was stupid enough to put in a change of address at the post office.

This triggered Fulton county to send me a letter denying my voter registration because I was "Under 18 and an illegal alien." Never mind I have been voting 44 years.

Johns Creek police told me it's their "Standard letter" because I changed counties, and they go by the DMV. They said it would "take an act of God to change my license!"

It took Fulton county from March to November to fix it. I almost was denied voting in the election.

Simple!

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Why wouldnt you have an ID already? And are you that racist to assume that a person living in a lower socio-economic area doesnt have the wherewithall to get an ID?

Not at all. I think they have the same ability to get an ID as anyone else, but I believe it is harder in those areas for various reasons. I also don't believe (for reasons I stated earlier) that voter ID is an effective way to counter the minimal voter fraud that does occur. In the example we've talked about with Ben, he could vote in both GA and SC and the voter ID law in no way prevents him from doing that. There was a lady arrested in the 2016 election for early voting in two different locations. Voter ID wouldn't stop that.

How is that a poll tax? You need IDs for a lot of things in life. So it is best to have one, in general.

Of course it is best to have one. I have one. So does pretty much everyone on this board, I'm sure. But if an ID is required to vote, then there must be a free one or it is a poll tax.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by nol

"Maybe an hour." What a moron. Also would like to hear of one specific thing besides voting that an old person who takes public transportation needs a photo ID for.

Flying

[larrymcg421]

Wait, wait, wait. "Maybe an hour"???? I think we can spot the disconnect here. I have waited up to 5 hours before and that's not even in a low income area.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by bbgunn

My point is that it is refreshing to see intelligent discussion and debate by people passionate about their convictions, without name-calling, mama-insulting, racial insult-spewing, war-sowing language. Love you guys. Carry on.

Sigh... the old day(s)

[tarcone]

I havent been to an inner city DMV in about 20 years.
So it takes someone half a day. And the ID lasts ofr 6 years. Oh my, the burden. This will cause them to die because they couldnt take a half day off work.

Wait, dont you need some form of ID to get a job? Its been a long time simnce I applied for a job. But isnt that standard practice?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Why wouldnt you have an ID already?

Serious question for everyone: how often do you use your ID in situations where a poor person wouldn't need to?

I use my driver's license...

--to drive, only if I get pulled over, of course
--to get on airplanes
--at Will Call when I buy tickets online to a sporting event or concert
--as identification when I recently bought a house
--at some places when I pay by credit card

What are the reasons an ID would be needed for a carless person who doesn't have a credit card and can't afford to fly, attend sporting events, or buy a house? I'm sure there are some; I'm just coming up blank right now.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Heh, actually it looks like my aunt did have to go there twice. Also found this reply to her ordeal:



Simple!

When I moved to Missouri, It took me all of n hour to get my DL it was no hassle at all. Got in, got it done, left.

Simple!

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Serious question for everyone: how often do you use your ID in situations where a poor person wouldn't need to?

I use my driver's license...

--to drive, only if I get pulled over, of course
--to get on airplanes
--at Will Call when I buy tickets online to a sporting event or concert
--as identification when I recently bought a house
--at some places when I pay by credit card

What are the reasons an ID would be needed for a carless person who doesn't have a credit card and can't afford to fly, attend sporting events, or buy a house? I'm sure there are some; I'm just coming up blank right now.

Buy alcohol
Get a hotel room
Cash a check

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Buy alcohol
Get a hotel room
Cash a check

1. Heh. The benefits of being in my late 40s. Don't remember the last time I've been carded, but fair point. EDIT: That said, now I'm thinking of many of the poor elderly black women who've never touched a drop of alcohol in their life..they wouldn't need it for that.
2. Ah yes...do that all that time...but again, does a poor person ever need it for that?
3. Mobile deposit ftmfw!

[thesloppy]

You don't need photo ID to fly, fwiw.

[sabotai]

It's been awhile since I had to cash a check, but I don't remember having to show a photo ID to do so. I needed two forms of ID with my current address on it. My picture-less drivers license (back in the long long ago when that was still a thing) and my blood-donor card was all I used to show.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by tarcone

When I moved to Missouri, It took me all of n hour to get my DL it was no hassle at all. Got in, got it done, left.

Simple!

States like Alabama like to make it not so simple for minority areas. Charging any amount is still unconstitutional.

[Butter]

My dad is bedridden... my mom does almost everything for him. He doesn't drive, he doesn't really leave the house. He doesn't use a driver's license. But he does vote.

So, there's a real example of a guy who does not and will not need a driver's license or an ID, and probably won't have one when his expires next because he medically can't drive.

[Ben E Lou]

Dola:

Thinking of the nondescript poor elderly black woman led me to think of my mom. She stopped driving when she was around 70ish, but lived to age 85. Her world was pretty small as she aged. I doubt she had to show ID in the bank or at the pharmacy. I wonder what she did for ID after her last driver's license expired, or if she even had one.

[CrescentMoonie]

I just show the online ticket on my phone at this point. It is nice to get carded at bars in my 40s whenever I bother to shave.

[Ben E Lou]

Dang, you people SMASHED my dola.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

1. Heh. The benefits of being in my late 40s. Don't remember the last time I've been carded, but fair point.

What, you don't still get carded? I have to show mine on every alcohol purchase here -- both retail & dining out -- even thought I'm pretty freakin' clearly past 21.

[Ben E Lou]

But yeah...what Butter said about his dad. I'm sure my mother continued to vote. She wasn't even bedridden until the last 8 days of her life (fell and broke her hip..died 8 days later,) but I can't think of a reason that she would have needed a picture ID.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Dola:

Thinking of the nondescript poor elderly black woman led me to think of my mom. She stopped driving when she was around 70ish, but lived to age 85. Her world was pretty small as she aged. I doubt she had to show ID in the bank or at the pharmacy. I wonder what she did for ID after her last driver's license expired, or if she even had one.

I just spent two years in Honolulu for a PhD program and they offer a state ID card if you don't want a license. I didn't have a car, so I just kept my previous license, which is still good, and had the ID card for certain things (mainly store discounts for living local) around the city.

[albionmoonlight]

PROPOSITION: "This policy provides no benefit and will make life needlessly more difficulty/troublesome for [distinct group]. Accordingly, it is a bad policy and should be rejected."

RESPONSE: "I reject your argument because I, personally, am not a member of [distinct group]."

Unless and until we stop allowing that to be an acceptable response, public discourse will continue to degrade.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

What, you don't still get carded? I have to show mine on every alcohol purchase here -- both retail & dining out -- even thought I'm pretty freakin' clearly past 21.

Yeah, at some point a couple years ago Portland slipped into "every body gets carded every time" territory as well.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

What, you don't still get carded? I have to show mine on every alcohol purchase here -- both retail & dining out -- even thought I'm pretty freakin' clearly past 21.

And black people tend to look younger than we are, too. (All that lotion, I suspect.... )

Now I don't drink very often, but I'd say that I buy a bottle of wine at the grocery store probably every couple of months or so, and I'll get a glass of wine with dinner when I'm traveling for work fairly frequently (which again happens maybe once every other month,) but I can specifically recall the last time I was carded, because it happens so rarely that it surprised me: it was on my birthday....in 2014.

[NobodyHere]

Maybe we need a new picture ID thread

[sabotai]

I'm not a frequent drinker of alcohol, but I do look a lot younger than I am (when I wear a hat and hide my incredibly hilarious hair line), so getting carded has always been the norm for me. But the last several times I've been to the liquor store, I have not been carded.

I'll be honest. It hurts a bit.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by CrescentMoonie

I just spent two years in Honolulu for a PhD program and they offer a state ID card if you don't want a license.

Bad ol' Georgia does the same thing

Georgia ID Card for Voting Purposes Only
*Note: Must provide proof of valid voter registration
8 years No Fee when Qualified

And for those who want something more than strictly voting, there's also

Indigent ID Card
*Note: Customer must present voucher and required documents to receive ID card
8 years $5 (May be billable to shelters with agreements with DDS)