Werewolf CXL - The Dark Knight Returns - GAME OVER

[CrimsonFox]

From a chit-chat post from me to Jackal after Lathum was killed:

I would look at DT/ntn/Sal

[CrimsonFox]

Bug, does your new missus know you are a Two-Face?

[saldana]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

From a chit-chat post from me to Jackal after Lathum was killed:

Hind sight is always 20/20, lol

[MrBug708]

What's with all of the talking post death? Tsk tsk

[hoopsguy]

BTW, congrats on the engagement MrBug. Hopefully this was something that you were in fact excited about

[CrimsonFox]

Most excellent game Saldana! I didn't really suspect you much at all until long after I was dead and looked back. The two things that jumped out at me were that 1) you were in angry hysterics last game and suddenly are all nice and comforting, helpful, and friendly this game and 2) you made a post about me saying "CF is not normally like that". I'm not? And as you hadn't played in awhile I thought it was an odd thing to say. Still you left so much doubt that you were bad it was really well done.

[CrimsonFox]

Great job Bug and ntn too. I guess we should have suspected it since you both were talking and all.

[MrBug708]

Haha...I was afraid that a helpful bug would be a wolf bug

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

BTW, congrats on the engagement MrBug. Hopefully this was something that you were in face excited about

It was nice to win the game...I hoped engagement Goodwill would keep ne alive

[CrimsonFox]

Oh and yeah I was just paying the "being obvious " card for both sides of the track. It didn't totally work but eh. Getting lynched early to protect the village was the other half of it since I was just a vanilla. ell...that didn't totally work out either. :P

I was THIS CLOSE to submitting
"unovte abe
vote cf"
on day 1. Had it typed and everything. But I chickened out as things were too weird and I wanted to see if 2pac would lynch me. Sorry Abe. I shoulda done it.

As for day two I just wanted to lynch myself so other roles wouldn't be taken and the 2face thing obviously didn't work and I was too big of a question mark for village by then.

[CrimsonFox]

how to get lynched:
1) act weird
2) vote for self
3) nonchalantly say "I won't be back until after deadline"
4) Come back 1/2 hour before deadline and then just lurk
5) At the end try to "save yourself" by switching votes
6) vote for self as a cap

[ntndeacon]

I actually left a hint too. the 1st five posts after we started began with I S L E Y

[MrBug708]

I never would have gotten that sadly but I was looking for clues like that

[CrimsonFox]

Was good what DT did. Pretty great stuff throwing himself in the line of fire to prevent them looking for villains.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by saldana

Hind sight is always 20/20, lol

well yeah. But it still feels nice. And you I was the least sure about but figured you were a good bet.

[CrimsonFox]

So what was it like for wolves in this game? Paradise I would expect.

[CrimsonFox]

And how much was Autumn crying when Danny and Jackal bit the dust at the same time?

[J23]

Originally Posted by Danny

I really don't think so. There was a lot there for analysis I believe. The villager just didn't put in the effort in this one.

I completely disagree with there being a lot for analysis.

Of course, when 2 out of every 3 posts has nothing to do with the game itself, it becomes a lot harder to go back and read information. I really have no idea why people insist on posting huge amounts of meaningless crap in these threads. It really, really makes it difficult for me to try to be involved in the game when I have pretty limited time to read up on the thread and make sense of things. On top of that, people bring up post count in the thread like it's a sign of how involved people are.

Thanks for running the game Autumn. I really enjoyed a lot of the writeup you did, and it was an interesting ruleset. I just think that the way things played out didn't help to cause any meaningful discussion.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by J23

I completely disagree with there being a lot for analysis.

Of course, when 2 out of every 3 posts has nothing to do with the game itself, it becomes a lot harder to go back and read information. I really have no idea why people insist on posting huge amounts of meaningless crap in these threads. It really, really makes it difficult for me to try to be involved in the game when I have pretty limited time to read up on the thread and make sense of things. On top of that, people bring up post count in the thread like it's a sign of how involved people are.

Thanks for running the game Autumn. I really enjoyed a lot of the writeup you did, and it was an interesting ruleset. I just think that the way things played out didn't help to cause any meaningful discussion.

Just off the top of my head from someone who barely followed along after dying.

Why were Saldana, Bug and ntn voting for someone who was 100% not a supervillian? Why did everyone abandon the the thought of who could be the night 2 kill once Lathum was determined not to be that person? Why was ntn making a concerted effort to post more than he normally does? Why was DT being so non chalant when he tends to be more active and involved as a wolf? Why did Mr. Bug tone down his zaniness as the game got closer to the end? Why was Saldana, someone who went several nights as relatively trusted never night killed? Once it was clear the deranged did not do unvote/votes early on, Why were early vote days not analyzed to see if there was a player or two who simply could not get any support or no votes at all? After narc suggested Lathum who seemingly was good, who were players then seemed ok with the lynch and kind of follow along? Why did people think PF could be two face when he is historically more involved as a wolf and it was fairly obvious the wolves were active. He also is not the type of personality who would fake being inactive for cover.

[CrimsonFox]

All excellent questions. There was info there it was just a different kind of info. Really had to rely on the first few days which there WAS info there. And especially look at people's posts. And if that's not enough you have to engage people. Ask why they vote for cvertain people. Make them answer questions. And if they don't, that's information too.

[CrimsonFox]

Oh yeah the heat on dzilla puzzled me. His responses seemed very honest and truthful . He wasn't nervous at all either. The scan on him really puzzled me considering so many were shouting for DT and sal. And the Lathum vote extremely puzzled me when he WAS a scan target and came up good. That should have at least been the percentage play not to vote him out that day with others still in question.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Autumn

NTNdeacon was ...

damn ntn you're hot!

[Narcizo]

Agree with Danny that there was information there. Then again my interpretation of the information lead to me exclusively voting AND scanning villagers so I'm not going to be one to cast any stones. Yes, it was dumb to lynch Lathum but when you have the wolf target Hoops and then Danny and Jackal night three and Chief isn't a wolf (I was convinced he until mau scanned him - I even was half thinking of ways he could be afterwards) then it's hard to see past that. Pretty certain I would have gone after Saldana day five once Lathum came up good though if I'd been alive. I'd have a much harder time getting to Bug though.

I think Two-Face not being able to kill the seer was probably too big an advantage for the village. And I don't like the fact that a mass-reveal on day one would probably have won the game for the village. Kind of sucks that all the villagers who usually drive the conversation also had roles - I think vanilla villagers have to step up and try to be more involved to provide some cover for the roles in that sort of situation. But I also agree that there was too much Off-topic stuff going on on day one that was a distraction and probably pretty annoying to people with limited time.

I thought it was a good game Autumn - kind of disappointed at my own play in this one but, then again, I hate being a seer. I was surpised that none of the derangees didn't use the opportunity of there being no reveals to fake reveal. Then again I guess the fact that we had already all the roles out there by day four made that harder for them.

[Narcizo]

Oh and when I got the mail that told me that Two-Face had killed me I was really hopeful that Lathum was Freeze and that the game was all but finished. It was only when I'd talked to Crimson that I realised that it was, at least, as likely that Chief had blocked a kill attempt on Mau. Really Two-Face should have hit Chief rather than me on that night.

[CrimsonFox]

WOW! I just realized that Bug it was YOU that suggested that it could have been the chief block. Nicely played.

[CrimsonFox]

I think we've hit a new era in WW where UtR only means distinterested villager so whoever is talking is a wolf. :P

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by J23

I completely disagree with there being a lot for analysis.

Of course, when 2 out of every 3 posts has nothing to do with the game itself, it becomes a lot harder to go back and read information. I really have no idea why people insist on posting huge amounts of meaningless crap in these threads. It really, really makes it difficult for me to try to be involved in the game when I have pretty limited time to read up on the thread and make sense of things. On top of that, people bring up post count in the thread like it's a sign of how involved people are.

Thanks for running the game Autumn. I really enjoyed a lot of the writeup you did, and it was an interesting ruleset. I just think that the way things played out didn't help to cause any meaningful discussion.

+1

All the crap posts really took away from this game.

[SnDvls]

Dola - I also think the village took the easy way out from Lathum to the end. Just a vote and a sit back not really thinking about the big picture just how they could end the game faster

[Danny]

Originally Posted by SnDvls

+1

All the crap posts really took away from this game.

I agree that some of us (myself as one of the main offenders) should cut back on off-topic pointless posts. But that is not what took away from the game. There was only 1300 or so total game posts even with the all these off-topic posts and it would not have been hard to go back and look at votes and some specific posts. And once the individuals who were the primary offenders (Probably Abe, Crimson and I) were dead, activity basically fell to nothing.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

WOW! I just realized that Bug it was YOU that suggested that it could have been the chief block. Nicely played.

Hmmm?

I was actually throwing out helpful hints to the village at times

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Danny

I agree that some of us (myself as one of the main offenders) should cut back on off-topic pointless posts. But that is not what took away from the game. There was only 1300 or so total game posts even with the all these off-topic posts and it would not have been hard to go back and look at votes and some specific posts. And once the individuals who were the primary offenders (Probably Abe, Crimson and I) were dead, activity basically fell to nothing.

Yeah the idea that our over activity is the reason for other people's inasctivity is kinda weak. You (and by you I mean everyone) have the power to guide the conversation and the game to whatever direction you want. And if you don't steer it at all and just follow others everywhere, well it's your own fault when it's a wolf who you've been following.

As for day 1 in general, it's always nonsense. Even without loony posts from danny, abe, and me, day one is lots of people saying nothing with their posts. Always nothing but a guess. May as well have fun with it. And if you aren't having fun, well not sure what you're looking for.

Anyway sorry if I did go too over the top and made things crash a little for the village, but I did have intentions of just throwing myself into the limelight so that others could gain some information and not get killed themselves.

[CrimsonFox]

well overall I think the tension of not having any results every day just kept building really and some people gave up without that instant info. Only thing I can think.

[mckerney]

Hooray team!

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

how to get lynched:
1) act weird
2) vote for self
3) nonchalantly say "I won't be back until after deadline"
4) Come back 1/2 hour before deadline and then just lurk
5) At the end try to "save yourself" by switching votes
6) vote for self as a cap

I voted to save you.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

how to get lynched:
1) act weird
2) vote for self
3) nonchalantly say "I won't be back until after deadline"
4) Come back 1/2 hour before deadline and then just lurk
5) At the end try to "save yourself" by switching votes
6) vote for self as a cap

All of these steps are unnecessary. Instead only one step is needed.

1) Name yourself CrimsonFox

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Danny

All of these steps are unnecessary. Instead only one step is needed.

1) Name yourself CrimsonFox

hshaha true

[J23]

Originally Posted by Danny

Just off the top of my head from someone who barely followed along after dying.

Why were Saldana, Bug and ntn voting for someone who was 100% not a supervillian? Why did everyone abandon the the thought of who could be the night 2 kill once Lathum was determined not to be that person? Why was ntn making a concerted effort to post more than he normally does? Why was DT being so non chalant when he tends to be more active and involved as a wolf? Why did Mr. Bug tone down his zaniness as the game got closer to the end? Why was Saldana, someone who went several nights as relatively trusted never night killed? Once it was clear the deranged did not do unvote/votes early on, Why were early vote days not analyzed to see if there was a player or two who simply could not get any support or no votes at all? After narc suggested Lathum who seemingly was good, who were players then seemed ok with the lynch and kind of follow along? Why did people think PF could be two face when he is historically more involved as a wolf and it was fairly obvious the wolves were active. He also is not the type of personality who would fake being inactive for cover.

I voted for Saldana and mentioned that he and DT were my biggest targets. Unfortunately, there's not a whole lot of evidence to be brought up in this game other than more gut reads rather than voting history. Maybe I'm just a bad player, but I don't really remember who acts what way as a wolf vs. non-wolf, and wouldn't ever really bring up that kind of argument. The fact is that by the time a lot of the questions you listed could be asked, the village was pretty far behind.

[J23]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

Yeah the idea that our over activity is the reason for other people's inasctivity is kinda weak. You (and by you I mean everyone) have the power to guide the conversation and the game to whatever direction you want. And if you don't steer it at all and just follow others everywhere, well it's your own fault when it's a wolf who you've been following.

As for day 1 in general, it's always nonsense. Even without loony posts from danny, abe, and me, day one is lots of people saying nothing with their posts. Always nothing but a guess. May as well have fun with it. And if you aren't having fun, well not sure what you're looking for.

I'm not saying that the village was inactive because of the nonsense posts. I'm saying that personally, I find it harder to be involved when I have to try to sift through so much random crap to get to meaningful posts that I can try to analyze. As I said, I have limited time that I can dedicate to the game and when I have to spend a good portion of that time weeding through meaningless posts, it makes me a lot less likely to bother with it.

As for day 1 in particular, I expect nonsense reasoning for votes and some back and forth. It's also why I really never care to contribute much on day1. Of course, this game was a bit over the top, even for day1.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

I think Two-Face not being able to kill the seer was probably too big an advantage for the village. And I don't like the fact that a mass-reveal on day one would probably have won the game for the village.

I'm not sure that htat's true, about the mass reveal. This ruleset has been pretty heavily tested elsewehre, and I know in particular they cut down on the number of what I called Superhero-Wannabes to prevent them from revealing. But if all the good guys revealed, you'd still have five bad guys among 8 vanilla villagers (even ignoring fake wolf reveals). It would make things easier for the village, but it would also mean Two Face would have it easier finding the disturbed citizens.

[Autumn]

As for the non-game posting, we always have silly posts, but it did seem overboard this game. People talked about Coldplay as much as the game on day one.

[PackerFanatic]

I am so, so sorry everyone (especially Autumn). It has been a crazy busy week and I just plain forgot about this game. No excuse at all

[MrBug708]

I forgive you

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by PackerFanatic

I am so, so sorry everyone (especially Autumn). It has been a crazy busy week and I just plain forgot about this game. No excuse at all

Thanks. I would have messaged you (or replaced you) but I was so busy I missed it. Now you can say you totally would have won it for the village though.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Autumn

You did really great, Bug, it was nice watching you so invested in it. Chief did a great job on the other side with his blocks in particular.

Thanks, Autumn. It was tricky trying to work out who to protect while also not being obvious about it.

[CrimsonFox]

oh yeah great game chief. how did the blocks/attempts go? I could sense you were playing rockpaper scissors pretty fiercely.

[Tyrith]

I would agree that the sheer quantity of nonsense posts on Day 1 had a long-term impact on the game. There is something to be said for being immersed in the game, for setting up an environment that is conducive to there being lots of discussion, analysis, and generally being engaged with the gameplay.

Having so much unrelated posting in the game early on breaks that sense of immersion, and it's not an automatic that it's going to come back once the nonsense stops. Games clearly have momentum, and this one never got any going.

Personally, it's not a switch in my head - I can't be not invested in a game for the first couple of days and then suddenly have to carry the momentum for a game, unless there is some specific game catalyst for that switch. While some amount of various nonsense is perfectly reasonable - we're all friends here - the volume of it in this game made it hard for me to get going, in combination with the ruleset which made the first couple of days even more of a crapshoot than normal.

[hoopsguy]

There is something to be said for being immersed in the game, for setting up an environment that is conducive to there being lots of discussion, analysis, and generally being engaged with Coldplay.

What???

In all seriousness, I'll try to avoid ever discussing this band again in a werewolf game.

[Tyrith]

Or maybe you should just GM a Coldplay based WW game...although I have no idea what that would look like :P

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Tyrith

Or maybe you should just GM a Coldplay based WW game...although I have no idea what that would look like :P

Zinto and I are on the case!

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

oh yeah great game chief. how did the blocks/attempts go? I could sense you were playing rockpaper scissors pretty fiercely.

lol...actually the days run together, so I am not sure without looking back right now what I did on any given night. Knowing Two Face could not attack mau helped. It allowed me to make some reasonable guesses on what the other supervillain would do (Dr. Freeze, that was sal, I believe, as it turns out). It also allowed me to do a little bluffing.

I was massively disappointed both wolves went after the forensics scientists the one night. The consensus was that mau should be protected but Commo was revealed, too. Commo made a case that he was fairly useless to the village at that point, but I was hoping a BG block would reveal the supervillain in question. So I actually left mau unprotected and protected Commo, figuring Dr. Freeze would go for mau, while Two Face would necessarily go after the one other good role revealed, Batman. As it turns out, Bug probably figured I would bluff and sal probably got skittish at the obvious block coming on mau (which wouldn't have happened, lol).

I also thought I would be killed sooner.

Incidentally, on Night One, I was uber close to protecting hoops, a natural choice to protect. In the end, I decided to protect Danny, because hoops had received some heat on Day One, and I also felt that the other BG would likely protect hoops. The flaw in that plan, of course, was that hoops himself might be the other BG. D'oh!

Had I protected hoops, we would have had a super strong villager confirmed as a villager (without his role being revealed) and saved us a night kill, too.

Autumn, was my identity revealed to the attacking wolf in the night write up for the kill attempt that I blocked? I got no reveal out of it, but wasn't sure if the wolves would. Of course, I was already "out" in thread, so my identity was no secret. Just wondering about different ways of playing the role.

We need to stop focusing on killing the players posting a lot.

Despite the deadness at the end, I enjoyed this game, playing it and following along. Definitely a different sort of game. Thanks for running it, Autumn, you did a good job. And I loved the writeups, very well written.