Breakout Kings: Werewolf Style (Game over - village wins)

[JAG]

Fun game EF, probably the most enjoyable 'vanilla' game I've followed.

I don't really get the undeserved win comment but I don't want to go into that. Julio, nice first game as a wolf. I think the village had a pretty good game other than unluckily having Ray on the block early and not getting much value from our roles.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Good game so far, surprised that Danny is posting.

Yeah on my phone post during commercials and breaks. Helps me seem busy so my grandma doesnt talk during game

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by JAG

Fun game EF, probably the most enjoyable 'vanilla' game I've followed.

I don't really get the undeserved win comment but I don't want to go into that. Julio, nice first game as a wolf. I think the village had a pretty good game other than unluckily having Ray on the block early and not getting much value from our roles.

I guess it's more that I think Julio deserved a better shake at the end; especially when it seemed that the most damning thing against him was a vote that he made after a reveal, when the two things happened pretty much at the same time. No chance to argue his case today. While the relatively inactive Chubby saw no heat.

[LoneStarGirl]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

Incidently I know we get bored at the end of games and like adding funny comments but I think we need to dial back a little on dead people making comments in thread while the game is still going on. Happened in portal and in this game where some comments were borderline ABOUT the game and the wolves have a hard enough time trying to convince villagers of things like "how many wolves are left" without someone unintentionally putting an idea in their head.

Who would do such a thing?

[Danny]

Chubby shouldnt have receieved heat, it was pretty pbvious he wasnt a wolf. It was pretty pbvious to me after cpnsidering everything that the right vote for today was julio.

[LoneStarGirl]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox;

and yes lonestar...yesyes you were right all along ha!

somebody earlier in the game called me rusty, but I think it's one of the best games I've ever played. I just need to work on getting people to follow me, and be more convincing with my arguments

[JAG]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

This game went entirely wrong as far as the mechanics that I had planned.

It seems like that's the Murphy's Law of running a game. In my Asgard game almost half the players were vanilla villages and I had some cool mechanics for them upon death, and it took something like 4 days until one died and it just ended up being a sideshow.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Danny

It wasnt a case of probably the wolf left was te cunning, it was 100%. I wasnt making wild assumptions, the rules were clear. If i got killed and you were up for lynch, you think anyone would have beloeved your story?

It seems like you're the only one who thinks it was 100% (including the person who wrote the rules).

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by Danny

What should people base their vote pn then? The voting analysis (who when and why) has been the same simce i started playing and its easily been the best way of catching wolves. Post analysis soild be used to but i dont agree that too mich emphasis is placed on vote analysis. It is what caused me to push for britrock and then to vote julio in the end

Post analysis. It's like playing poker, you have to find the bluff. You shouldn't play poker based entirely on betting history. I've seen too many games where myself or someone comes out with a valid theory based on how someone was acting and it got shot down because that person had a "good voting history"; only for it to bite us in the end.

The worst games that I have played as a villager are games where I fall into the voting history trap and start looking at that too much. That is why I stopped keeping the voting history lately when I played.

The best games that I have played are when I carefully watch reactions to events or posts. Call someone a wolf here or there and see what shakes out. Claim unyielding trust for someone and see if they change anything about how they play or get too comfortable.

Only then will voting history help.

At least in my opinion. But we know what opinions are like...

[Danny]

Yeah lsg was in the zone this game before she got killed

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Danny

Yeah on my phone post during commercials and breaks. Helps me seem busy so my grandma doesnt talk during game

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

It seems like you're the only one who thinks it was 100% (including the person who wrote the rules).

And i was right.

Explain a realistic scenario to me where the wolves remaining were not crimson and the cunning at that time?

[Autumn]

That's how I sussed out Golden Eagle this time around, just watching to see who reacted how to the votes, and then how he reacted to some pressure. Doesn't always work but it's nice when it does.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

I guess it's more that I think Julio deserved a better shake at the end; especially when it seemed that the most damning thing against him was a vote that he made after a reveal, when the two things happened pretty much at the same time. No chance to argue his case today. While the relatively inactive Chubby saw no heat.

I felt like Danny made a pretty convincing case why Chubby was unlikely to be a wolf based on his votes and those who had voted for him. Voting analysis isn't bulletproof, especially with clever or daring wolves, but I think it's always worth looking at as part of the puzzle. Post analysis is a bit more difficult because we have a lot of good liars here.

I guess I felt like the village played a solid game in a challenging ruleset.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by JAG

It seems like that's the Murphy's Law of running a game. In my Asgard game almost half the players were vanilla villages and I had some cool mechanics for them upon death, and it took something like 4 days until one died and it just ended up being a sideshow.

It seeems to go one way or the other. I either have a triggered type of event planned for that never gets triggered or I put something in that would take exactly like what happened in this game to blow it.

Oh well, back to planning for TAR 2.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by Danny

And i was right.

Explain a realistic scenario to me where the wolves remaining were not crimson and the cunning at that time?

Vanilla wolves, most all games have them.

[LoneStarGirl]

The night I got night killed I put in an order to protect myself because I knew Julio in all his wolfy glory would come after me. Then Ray came out and revealed himself, and I couldn't decide if I should protect myself or him... Which is why I proposed that question, 'who should be the protected?' which kinda gave away the fact I was the body guard. If I would have stayed with my gut and not moved to protect bhlloy this game would have been done early.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Danny

And i was right.

Explain a realistic scenario to me where the wolves remaining were not crimson and the cunning at that time?

Being right is different from it being 100%. I thought it was likely, too, just not 100%.

The realistic scenario involves having another wolf, or that Ronnie could have the ability to see through the cunning.

[LoneStarGirl]

Originally Posted by JAG

I felt like Danny made a pretty convincing case why Chubby was unlikely to be a wolf based on his votes and those who had voted for him. Voting analysis isn't bulletproof, especially with clever or daring wolves, but I think it's always worth looking at as part of the puzzle. Post analysis is a bit more difficult because we have a lot of good liars here.

I guess I felt like the village played a solid game in a challenging ruleset.

I agree. If I was still in this game at that point I would have followed him

[JAG]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

JAG, that's your cue! JAG has a forum we've used before for outside discussion about the game itself. It's been very successful too. I'll let him advertise it more but you should alert him to give you a username/password and the address. That keeps the idle corpses happy really

Yeah, I really should've started a thread for this one. Next time.

[Passacaglia]

And congrats on getting your grandma not to talk during the game!

[Danny]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Vanilla wolves, most all games have them.

No chance. I knew ronnie could have been converted and a roles player could have been converted, no way there were 4 starting wolves in a game this size wrh two potwntial converts.

[EagleFan]

I was hoping that brit would use his second ability.

He could help a "non runner" escape the lynch. You would not know the details of the person that he saved just that he somehow escaped the lynch.

Example: if Danny was the lynch vote you would have been told that you cannot find Danny, he had somehow escaped the lynch and is still in the game.

I wasn't sure if it would get used but thought it could lead to an ineresting slight of hand by the wolved.

[JAG]

Why did the wolves not brutal bhlloy N2?

[EagleFan]

Really Devils fans? You saw that replay and think it's a goal?

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

And congrats on getting your grandma not to talk during the game!

Not sure if this is sarcastic or not, but lets nt make this personal in out of game matters. You have no idea what i sacrifce for my family.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by JAG

Why did the wolves not brutal bhlloy N2?

GE submitted the brutal before the reveal and never changed it.

A chain of events would have been triggered if they did.

LSG would have bocked the NK on herself that night as that was her conditional (protect bhlloy unless he was brutaled then self protect). That would mean that either her or CF would have been converted and there would have been a night with no night kill which would have probably caused all sorts of speculation about a conversion.

[EagleFan]

...and that conversion ad loss of powers would have come about as planned, over the next two nights.

Does that mean I can blame GE for the crashing of those mechanics?

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Danny

Not sure if this is sarcastic or not, but lets nt make this personal in out of game matters. You have no idea what i sacrifce for my family.

It was sarcastic -- I was just making fun of how you quoted your own post randomly here in the midst of all this WW discussion. I don't get why you would take it personally.

[Autumn]

I forget all about that stuff now. Yeah, I thought it was crazy they didn't brutal Bhlloy.

I can't believe bhlloy didn't use that other ability. I would love something like that as a wolf. Talk about messing with their minds.

[Danny]

Oh, i meant to quote efs post askimg wjy i was posting durimg game. No harm done

[Danny]

Wow either post game ww discussions or the hockey gameos goomg to give me a heart attack

[Danny]

I must say it was very nice to actually live through a game like this. I can't remember the last time that happened as a villager.

[britrock88]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

I was hoping that brit would use his second ability.

He could help a "non runner" escape the lynch. You would not know the details of the person that he saved just that he somehow escaped the lynch.

Example: if Danny was the lynch vote you would have been told that you cannot find Danny, he had somehow escaped the lynch and is still in the game.

I wasn't sure if it would get used but thought it could lead to an ineresting slight of hand by the wolved.

I was looking forward to it... but GE got a lot of heat on Day 2, I tried to cover for him while he and LSG were busy in real life, and drew everyone's attention myself. If my role had given me 2 days' safety, I would have used it the next night, absolutely. I wonder how useful/confusing it might have been at that point.

[britrock88]

Originally Posted by Autumn

It's very unusual (unique?) to have a mechanic where you know you're going to be converted, Britrock, so it isn't something that has come up a lot.

I think my stance, and I think Danny's, is that you should play for the team you're on as long as you're on that team, rather than play the optimal play for you. I think since there's no actual consequences of winning or losing in this game it's easy to metagame things, but I think usually the spirit of the game is to play for your team.

It's ironic this happened this game since my next ruleset also depends on people playing in the spirit of their team. So it's a good time to discuss this I guess!

Reading your premise, I got that feeling, which brought me back to this discussion. We'll see how any affected players cope with this next game!

[britrock88]

Originally Posted by Danny

What should people base their vote pn then? The voting analysis (who when and why) has been the same simce i started playing and its easily been the best way of catching wolves. Post analysis soild be used to but i dont agree that too mich emphasis is placed on vote analysis. It is what caused me to push for britrock and then to vote julio in the end

I know I was obvious for avoiding GE on Day 2, but I didn't expect my moving from Julio to Chubby immediately in the footsteps of bhlloy would be so damning of Julio. I honestly thought that it might help people catch on to the fact that I was trying to avoid GE and push ANY plausible second candidate, thereby giving Julio some breathing room. Too bad it didn't work out that way.

[Julio Riddols]

This one was exciting from the get go. I tried to play it as if I were a villager for the most part, but my wolf bias was pretty obvious (far more obvious than I had expected it would be) when the votes were looked at. I was stubborn about moving to GE early when he got a lot of heat, but he was the most experienced wolf on the team and I felt like that would have been a huge loss out of the gate for us, so I tried unsuccessfully to find a logical reason to disagree with his being lynched. We got lucky though and hit a few big night kills early, so losing GE wasn't as damning as it could have been, but once britrock got picked up on it was just a matter of time.

Watching the numbers dwindle I felt there was an outside shot for us, but I am not certain my night kill choices would have been enough to win if I had done them differently either.

Learned a lot and enjoyed my first time wolfing it up, but I think I was a bit of a detriment to my team early with my lack of experience and being unavailable much of two days early in the game.

And yeah, LSG had us pegged right off the bat. I'll be watching what I say and do from now on around her. I was very lucky no one else followed her line of thought much til the endgame approached.

Much fun was had, that is for sure. I felt like it was my first day at a new school every time I came back to see what had happened in the thread, knowing I was a wolf. Anxious and nervous.

[Chubby]

Yay we won! I tried to play it quieter because I always die when I talk!

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Autumn

That's how I sussed out Golden Eagle this time around, just watching to see who reacted how to the votes, and then how he reacted to some pressure. Doesn't always work but it's nice when it does.

yeah I read it similarly although I thought GE was wolfy before that with his voting explanations. That's why I went to him. When I unvoted him and went to bhlloy that was just show. I knew bhlloy was a villager likely for his reactions to things.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Chubby

Yay we won! I tried to play it quieter because I always die when I talk!

except the parts that you were talkative. And talkative about wanting to be quiet. How deliciously ironic.

[CrimsonFox]

Chubby, who would you have voted for between julio, Narc, and silent pass if danny was NKed? Narc same question.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by LoneStarGirl

somebody earlier in the game called me rusty, but I think it's one of the best games I've ever played. I just need to work on getting people to follow me, and be more convincing with my arguments

yeah I was pretty happy with my villager play as well.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

13) CrimsonFox - Erica Reed (day five lynch)

yay I won!
wah I lost!

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Danny

Chubby shouldnt have receieved heat, it was pretty pbvious he wasnt a wolf. It was pretty pbvious to me after cpnsidering everything that the right vote for today was julio.

heh why? He could have been a wolf. He didn't actually vote for GE but made fun of other people for not doing it. That could have easily been a wolf doing that once GE was getting a bunch of votes

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

I guess it's more that I think Julio deserved a better shake at the end; especially when it seemed that the most damning thing against him was a vote that he made after a reveal, when the two things happened pretty much at the same time. No chance to argue his case today. While the relatively inactive Chubby saw no heat.

yeah that last day was weird. Not that Danny changed his mind. He often does that. But I never saw the nightfall coming especially from Narc who chastises people in other games for nightfalling on the later days. And when he was that suspicious of danny.

The other two going quiet really hurt him. In fact I purposely did not nightfall so that all the paranoia and arguing would continue over the weekend to give julio a better shot. I wonder now if they had done that vote on friday if danny would have gut reactionvoted to narc instead.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

okay7 those clips are AWESOME. Where were they from? All kinds of places or just one movie?

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Dangit, I should have gone with ketchup and relish, that would have made much more sense!

The wisest thing ever said in a WW game. ketchup and relish....yes!
but you did indeed blow it

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

I think a better comparison would be...

You are a criminal that was working with the police but are about to attempt to escape from prison. Do you tell the cops 12 hours before you escape where you are escaping to?

Not really for me. I knew nothing about the theme so I really wasn't thinking about that. It is instead. I am a WW player on the side of good who is doing his job as seer before I die. Saying "I know I will be converted" is metagaming and I didn't want to do that. Even in your flavortext you said that it was because Ray died that sent me over the edge and give up the good life to go on the run. Ehhh I just think it needed some hardfast tweaks in the rules if you want to make sure something goes the way you want it. Even put contingency rules in the behind the scenes rules that you don't have to list up front. LIke "if things really break, then this can happen so that said game stays fun". That kinda thing. But I geuss the problem here was we knew bhlloy was dying. So we were prepped with our moves.

[CrimsonFox]

Hey Narc! Join the fun!

[Narcizo]

As a wolf I'll take a village who rely on post analysis and gut over ones who use voting analysis any day.

When I woke up I was sure Danny was the wolf even though logic dictated he couldn't be. I was shocked to see that we'd won. I actually thought Julio was the wolf when we lynched Chief but had I said that at the time I thought it would look like I was laying the ground for the next day. Sorry Chief.

I think Danny and Autumn had great games. Danny for reading the night kills and not voting me if nothing else. I also think me being (almost) able to forget my certainties and vote logically is pretty huge for me. I definitely think the village deserved the win in a very tough ruleset.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

As a wolf I'll take a village who rely on post analysis and gut over ones who use voting analysis any day.

Yep, Vote analysis (which again is not just who someone votes for, but when they vote, the circumstances of the vote, their explanation of the votes and their typical patterns of play) and other objective info (nk choice, etc...) is especially key the further you get in games.

I certainly rely on gut, especially early in games, but the further a game gets, the less emphasis that should be placed on gut.