Who will (not should) be the Democratic presidential nominee in 2008?

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

Let me get this straight. Did you see the movie JFK? If so, you must believe in conspiracies. That is exactly what you are saying here.

Just because some one reads a book does not mean that they subscribe to a conspiracy theory. Just because I meet some one once does not mean that I am a close advisor. If you attend a church for 20 years and this same person is very influential in the writing of your book, that person is a big influence over your life.

If a lifelong catholic runs for the White House, I can understand abortion advocates being concerned with abortion legislation being passed, regarless of the candidate's actual statements regarding his position. This is the same thing.

The problem that Obama has, and will have is that he cannot let the debate devolve into issues. He will be seen as a fringe liberal, and that will scare many voters away. As long as he keeps the debate about his cult of personality, he will attract the mindless mob.

You bring up a very good point though. There are many conspiracy theories out there that many people have not heard or have not given any credence to. But, you're going to tell me that a close spiritual advisor of a candidate for president, one who attended this church for 20 years, has no belief in any of this at all. Even though, he credits this same person as being a huge influence on his life. But, that's ok because these are mainstream beliefs?

Sorry, I can't buy that.

Let me explain this carefully, so you won't completely miss what I'm saying again.

1) I'm not saying reading a book means you believe in a conspiracy. I am saying reading a book and saying "I believe that" means you believe in a conspiracy.

2) I'm not at all saying any particular conspiracy theory is mainstream, but that belief in conspiracies in general likely is.

3) I'm not saying Wright should be excused because people believe in conspiracies, but that the discussion should at least pay attention to the fact that lots of people including prominent politicians of all ideologies believe in things equally as crazy as what Wright said.

4) You can believe whatever you want, but I believe it's at least reasonable to look at what the person has said and done and to put at minimum equal weight on that.

5) You have had numerous reasons to be opposed to Obama before any of this and I'd argue that your concern about Wright has less to do with a genuine fear of his influence and more to do with playing into biases you already had.

[Ksyrup]

Great speech.

I guess this is where I say that I wish he was a community leader or preacher, and not a candidate whose policies and political philosophy I largely do not agree with.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Great speech.

I guess this is where I say that I wish he was a community leader or preacher, and not a candidate whose policies and political philosophy I largely do not agree with.

He knows a preacher. You should check him out.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

He knows a preacher. You should check him out.

Do you have a link to some video of him I can check out?

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I suspect all of our regular priests, ministers and/or rabbis say stuff in their speeches with which we disagree.

Originally Posted by Barack Obama

Absolutely – just as I'm sure many of you have heard remarks from your pastors, priests, or rabbis with which you strongly disagreed.

Barack Obama stole my post!!!

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Do you have a link to some video of him I can check out?

I call Oprah and see if she can hook me up.

[Noop]

Great Speech.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

And by that I mean, you don't attend his church, and you certainly don't have him as a part of the most significant moments of your life. That is very troubling to me.

Well, not all of the most significant moments.

Remember, at the last minute, Obama decided not to have Wright at his announcement to run for the presidency last year, even though Obama said last week he wasn't aware of Wright's vitriolic sermons.

[SirFozzie]

The reaction I'm seeing elsewhere, is not Home Run.. it's grand slam.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

James Inhofe has said that 9/11 was punishment by God for America's sins.

The best parallel I can think of is if John McCain had Inhofe as his "family preacher" for 20 years with Inhofe baptizing his kids and marrying him to his wife. If that were the case, I think you would see 10-times more outrage from the mainstream media than we have seen on the Wright issue.

In the end, I think Obama has handled it fairly well (esp yesterday's speech), but the nature of his campaign will open him up for similar criticisms moving forward. It's no different that if W (while running as a uniter of Dems and Reps in 2000) had a bunch of stories come out about how he was a very obstructionist governor. Once you set the tone/goals of your campaign, you open the door for those items to be criticized if your history doesn't support them.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

The reaction I'm seeing elsewhere, is not Home Run.. it's grand slam.

Has there been a more direct speech confronting race in this country by a mainstream political leader in at least the past thirty years? Or more?

[CamEdwards]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Has there been a more direct speech confronting race in this country by a mainstream political leader in at least the past thirty years? Or more?

Would Obama have given this speech had his pastor of 20+ years not been caught on tape referring to the U-S of K-K-K-A?

There's a reason why Obama had to be direct. And frankly, when you strip out the high-falutin' rhetoric, this is what the speech comes down to re: Wright (which again, is WHY he's having to give the speech to begin with).

"Did I strongly disagree with many of his political views? Absolutely – just as I’m sure many of you have heard remarks from your pastors, priests, or rabbis with which you strongly disagreed."

And again, Obama's defense is that this is only a portion of Wright the person, and the sum of the man is greater than the hate-filled vitriolic pastor who's preaching racial divisiveness and screwy conspiracy theories. That's Obama's line in the sand, and no amount of silver-tongued oratory can change that.

He sat in a pew for 20+ years and listened to this crap on at least a semi-regular basis, and does not believe that it's offensive enough to change churches. I think he will find that many Americans disagree.

[rkmsuf]

"Did I strongly disagree with many of his political views? Absolutely – just as I’m sure many of you have heard remarks from your pastors, priests, or rabbis with which you strongly disagreed."

I've never heard remarks like those of Rev Wright from my pastor or any priest I've listened to. And if I had I'd be heading for the hills.

It's like the Rev said something about hating vanilla ice cream or denouncing fast food if you listen to Obama.

[JPhillips]

He sat in a pew for 20+ years and listened to this crap on at least a semi-regular basis, and does not believe that it's offensive enough to change churches. I think he will find that many Americans disagree.

And yet some of those same people will go to church or sit in front of their television and listen thoughtfully as a preacher tells them HIV is God's curse on homosexuals or the USA was created to destroy Islam or Catholicism is an apostate religion.

I'm sure Obama will lose a lot of votes over this, but do we really want to go down a road where we condemn people who go to church and hear messages we find offensive? Or will we just limit our outrage to one presidential candidate?

[CamEdwards]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

And yet some of those same people will go to church or sit in front of their television and listen thoughtfully as a preacher tells them HIV is God's curse on homosexuals or the USA was created to destroy Islam or Catholicism is an apostate religion.

I'm sure Obama will lose a lot of votes over this, but do we really want to go down a road where we condemn people who go to church and hear messages we find offensive? Or will we just limit our outrage to one presidential candidate?

Let me put it this way. I don't believe I'd be voting for a candidate that attended Fred Phelps' church.

Do we want to go down a road where we condemn people for sitting idly by for 20+ years and not confronting hate speech UNTIL it threatens their presidential campaign? Sure. I have no problem going down that road, no matter what candidate we're speaking about.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

And yet some of those same people will go to church or sit in front of their television and listen thoughtfully as a preacher tells them HIV is God's curse on homosexuals or the USA was created to destroy Islam or Catholicism is an apostate religion.

I'm sure Obama will lose a lot of votes over this, but do we really want to go down a road where we condemn people who go to church and hear messages we find offensive? Or will we just limit our outrage to one presidential candidate?

I think a good place to start is outrage over someone potentially the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

And yes I condem him for hearing this stuff and going back for 20 years considering he could be leading the entire country.

Let's get Rev Wright on the ticket while we are at it. He didn't really mean those things he was preaching about.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Let's get Rev Wright on the ticket while we are at it. He didn't really mean those things he was preaching about.

That's the crux of this thing. Rev. Wright isn't on the ticket. People are making this out to be that Obama = Wright when that is clearly not the case.

[JPhillips]

I'm not just talking about presidential candidates. What about the tens of thousands of folks that watch the 700 Club regularly? I'm fine with you not voting for Obama, although I'm sure your decision was made before this erupted. Not voting for him, though, isn't where these condemnations end. Almost all of you vocally opposed to Wright have been demanding that Obama should have left his church and the fact that he didn't impunes his character.

My question is whether that obvious character fault you see applies to the millions of people of all ideologies that go to churches or follow a television ministry where things equally as crazy and offensive are said. If not, why?

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by cartman

That's the crux of this thing. Rev. Wright isn't on the ticket. People are making this out to be that Obama = Wright when that is clearly not the case.

Clearly Obama hated the message of the Rev. I'm mean who wouldn't see right through that into the good of the man.

Please. People have gone insane.

[Noop]

Transparent. That is the word.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

Do we want to go down a road where we condemn people for sitting idly by for 20+ years and not confronting hate speech UNTIL it threatens their presidential campaign? Sure. I have no problem going down that road, no matter what candidate we're speaking about.

Since he didn't fall flat on his face with this speech, like it appears you were convinced was going to happen with your "color me unimpressed" posts from yesterday, I guess you have to keep plugging away.

How do you know that Obama didn't bring this up some of these instances to Wright in private in the past? You make is sound like Wright was preaching hate from the pulpit and in public 24/7, like a Phelps, when by all accounts that isn't the case. Yes he went way over the line in many instances, but it doesn't seem to be the core of what he was preaching.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I'm not just talking about presidential candidates. What about the tens of thousands of folks that watch the 700 Club regularly? I'm fine with you not voting for Obama, although I'm sure your decision was made before this erupted. Not voting for him, though, isn't where these condemnations end. Almost all of you vocally opposed to Wright have been demanding that Obama should have left his church and the fact that he didn't impunes his character.

My question is whether that obvious character fault you see applies to the millions of people of all ideologies that go to churches or follow a television ministry where things equally as crazy and offensive are said. If not, why?

I would think it would apply. Those people aren't running for office.

I would submit that if you knew about people's crazy affiliations like that then they would have a hard time getting voted into many leadership positions outside of their belief structure.

although I'm sure your decision was made before this erupted

see, this is where people are cucko. it's almost like how dare you not see the brilliance of this man. no way you are enlightened if you let this rev stuff bother you.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Clearly Obama hated the message of the Rev. I'm mean who wouldn't see right through that into the good of the man.

You, obviously, as someone whose only exposure to the Reverend has been the clips shown on the news and YouTube. I have no more exposure to the man than you do, so I'd more likely believe those who know the man, rather than those who pass judgement on him based on 30 second clips.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by cartman

Since he didn't fall flat on his face with this speech, like it appears you were convinced was going to happen with your "color me unimpressed" posts from yesterday, I guess you have to keep plugging away.

Nice.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by cartman

You, obviously, as someone whose only exposure to the Reverend has been the clips shown on the news and YouTube. I have no more exposure to the man than you do, so I'd more likely believe those who know the man, rather than those who pass judgement on him based on 30 second clips.

So if that's the case and he's filled with all this good, how do those thoughts and words ever come out of his mouth?

Please.

[CamEdwards]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I'm not just talking about presidential candidates. What about the tens of thousands of folks that watch the 700 Club regularly? I'm fine with you not voting for Obama, although I'm sure your decision was made before this erupted. Not voting for him, though, isn't where these condemnations end. Almost all of you vocally opposed to Wright have been demanding that Obama should have left his church and the fact that he didn't impunes his character.

My question is whether that obvious character fault you see applies to the millions of people of all ideologies that go to churches or follow a television ministry where things equally as crazy and offensive are said. If not, why?

Gee, do I believe that you're judged in part by the company you keep, and that applies to people who aren't running for president? Yes. Yes I do. I don't think it's inexplicable or even unfair to hold those that are running for the highest office in the country to a higher standard than Joe Average, however. The president promotes and can guide social policy in a way that the average viewer of the 700 Club cannot, and it's ludicrous to ignore that.

[JPhillips]

rkmsuf: No, I've actually read things Cam has said and no full well he was opposed to Obama well before last week. And like I sadi, for most of the critics hear this goes farther than worrying about leadership. Look at how many folks are saying that Obama should have left the church and not doing so is a clear moral failure. All I'm asking is whether this same moral failing can be observed in in the millions of others who follow pastors that a lot of people object to.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

So if that's the case and he's filled with all this good, how do those thoughts and words ever come out of his mouth?

Please.

Since when has anyone said he is made of sugar and gumdrops and farts rainbows? He's human, and humans have a long history of going way over the line with things they say. Good humans and bad humans alike.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

Gee, do I believe that you're judged in part by the company you keep, and that applies to people who aren't running for president? Yes. Yes I do. I don't think it's inexplicable or even unfair to hold those that are running for the highest office in the country to a higher standard than Joe Average, however. The president promotes and can guide social policy in a way that the average viewer of the 700 Club cannot, and it's ludicrous to ignore that.

You mean like our current president whom you voted for?

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

So if that's the case and he's filled with all this good, how do those thoughts and words ever come out of his mouth?

Please.

People are complicated. Wright can be an angry man and a loving man all at the same time. Rarely is anyone as good or bad as they may appear.

[Scoobz0202]

Obama pretty much said that Wright was totally in the wrong, and that if what Wright said was the only thing he knew about him, he would run for the hills.

I don't think Obama is simplifying what Wright says at all.

Wright is like a brother to Barack. In my personal opinion, I would frown upon Barack if he were to just totally denounce Wright and move on. No matter what Wright says, Barack can not simply walk away from him. That would scream of political correctness, and that would scream that Barack is just any other politician. Which he so strongly has been trying to prove he is not.

I don't agree with everything Barack said. Fuck, he spoke for over a half an hour. He spoke about racial problems in America for over a half an hour. I am a white college student. How the hell do I know how Barack feels. I commend him for not cutting off Wright and running from him.

[JPhillips]

Cam: It's not about higher standards. Like I said, you can vote for whomever you wish for whatever reason you wish. You go a lot farther than that, however. Your condemnation of him for not leaving his church, condemnation of the man, not the presidential candidate, is what I'm asking about. Does that same condemnation apply to the millions of folks that follow pastors that some find objectionable?

[Vince]

I want to be able to fart rainbows.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

rkmsuf: No, I've actually read things Cam has said and no full well he was opposed to Obama well before last week. And like I sadi, for most of the critics hear this goes farther than worrying about leadership. Look at how many folks are saying that Obama should have left the church and not doing so is a clear moral failure. All I'm asking is whether this same moral failing can be observed in in the millions of others who follow pastors that a lot of people object to.

I can only speak for myself and I would feel the same way about others that subscribe to messages of hate through their church or following.

Clearly I don't get why a man would go to this church for so long, feel so close to this Rev while the messages we see from this preacher are horrible IMO.

What bothers me too is how supporters kind of brush it off as "isolated" or well Obama didn't believe those things. For me there is a disconnect there in spite of any spin or speeches going on.

I've been pretty neutral regarding hillary vs obama but this turns me off to him.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by cartman

Since when has anyone said he is made of sugar and gumdrops and farts rainbows? He's human, and humans have a long history of going way over the line with things they say. Good humans and bad humans alike.

pick anyone you know or any church you been too and tell me you've heard these statements or anything of the like

and if you had are you repeatingly seeking out these people.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

I can only speak for myself and I would feel the same way about others that subscribe to messages of hate through their church or following.

Clearly I don't get why a man would go to this church for so long, feel so close to this Rev while the messages we see from this preacher are horrible IMO.

What bothers me too is how supporters kind of brush it off as "isolated" or well Obama didn't believe those things. For me there is a disconnect there in spite of any spin or speeches going on.

I've been pretty neutral regarding hillary vs obama but this turns me off to him.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Noop

does than mean you'd care to make this about race or something?

[Noop]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

does than mean you'd care to make this about race or something?

I love how people have a holier then thou attitude to this whole thing. Looking from the outside in I can see why you feel that way but everything is not as easy as it looks.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Noop

I love how people have a holier then thou attitude to this whole thing. Looking from the outside in I can see why you feel that way but everything is not as easy as it looks.

so make a point then.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

pick anyone you know or any church you been too and tell me you've heard these statements or anything of the like

and if you had are you repeatingly seeking out these people.

I have heard priests make statements like these, focused on homosexuality and pre-marital sex mainly. But it wasn't every week, maybe a few times a year. Can you say how often Rev. Wright went over the line in his sermons? If it was all the time, I'd think there would be more than the same 4 or 5 instances that seem to keep coming up.

[Scoobz0202]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

I can only speak for myself and I would feel the same way about others that subscribe to messages of hate through their church or following.

Clearly I don't get why a man would go to this church for so long, feel so close to this Rev while the messages we see from this preacher are horrible IMO.

What bothers me too is how supporters kind of brush it off as "isolated" or well Obama didn't believe those things. For me there is a disconnect there in spite of any spin or speeches going on.

I've been pretty neutral regarding hillary vs obama but this turns me off to him.

Then clearly you don't believe Obama when he says this is an isolated incident. At least, in his experience. And it's that fact that means nobody here will be able to come to common ground with you.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

so make a point then.

My point is things are not as easy as it seems to those involved in any situation.

[Fighter of Foo]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

I can only speak for myself and I would feel the same way about others that subscribe to messages of hate through their church or following.

Clearly I don't get why a man would go to this church for so long, feel so close to this Rev while the messages we see from this preacher are horrible IMO.

What bothers me too is how supporters kind of brush it off as "isolated" or well Obama didn't believe those things. For me there is a disconnect there in spite of any spin or speeches going on.

I've been pretty neutral regarding hillary vs obama but this turns me off to him.

Go read Obama's speech from today. It's pretty clearly articulated.

[Noop]

rkmsuf if I may ask where do you lean politically. Left or Right?

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by cartman

I have heard priests make statements like these, focused on homosexuality and pre-marital sex mainly. But it wasn't every week, maybe a few times a year. Can you say how often Rev. Wright went over the line in his sermons? If it was all the time, I'd think there would be more than the same 4 or 5 instances that seem to keep coming up.

For me, that doesn't make me feel better about the man at all.

Whatever, there are excuses to be made for everything.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Noop

rkmsuf if I may ask where do you lean politically. Left or Right?

make an arguement if I'm so unenlighened. Help me understand. seriously.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

make an arguement if I'm so unenlighened. Help me understand. seriously.

I just asked where do you lean. Would help me understand where your coming from alot better. As for you understanding I am not sure I can help with that someone mentioned reading his speech would help I will echo that statement.

[IMetTrentGreen]

There's a reason why Obama had to be direct. And frankly, when you strip out the high-falutin' rhetoric, this is what the speech comes down to re: Wright (which again, is WHY he's having to give the speech to begin with).

Actually, the Obama campaign is fixing to come out swinging at Hillary's secretive ways, i.e. refusing to release tax returns, earmarks, library donations, etc.

First he has to come clean on his own dirty laundry, which is why he sat down with the Time and the Tribune the other day to talk frankly about Rezko. Today he did the Wright speech. He may have had to do this anyway, and I'm glad he did, but the reason I think for it is that he can't have anything of his own he's dodging before coming at Hillary.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Noop

I just asked where do you lean. Would help me understand where your coming from alot better. As for you understanding I am not sure I can help with that someone mentioned reading his speech would help I will echo that statement.

What difference does it make. I'm on no team here.

Consider me neutral. Right smack dab in the middle.

This is what I'm talking about. It's almost impossible to fathom I've read the speech and in fact feel the way I've said I do. Amazing.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by cartman

If it was all the time, I'd think there would be more than the same 4 or 5 instances that seem to keep coming up.

If only I'd thought to bring my cell phone to church in 1986 so I could record him!

I thought Obama's speech, as discourse on the history and state of race relations, was great. As far as the specifics relating to Wright, I accept Obama's explanation, but I still have reservations about his judgment because, from my own perspective, there is no way I would tolerate listening to those kinds of statements - in a church, no less - without walking out and never coming back, let alone embracing the person and sharing my most personal moments with him. That bothers the hell out of me.

And that's about where I end up on this issue. He didn't convince he of anything regarding Wright, but he impressed me with his willingness and ability to be direct on the big picture issue of race. If he goes all the way to the White House, I just hope the message becomes more than a political slogan left in the dust of the 2008 campaign. And I mean that not directed to him or Democrats, but the nation as a whole.