The official 2008 MLB thread

[ISiddiqui]

Wow... Pittsburgh ended up with a MUCH better deal than they would have gotten with the Florida proposed deal!

[molson]

I wish Manny similar success to what Nomar and Pedro enjoyed after they left town.

[stevew]

I can never root for bay again. good to see him go to a team in contention however. Know nothing about the specs other than Hansen was supposedly highly regarded at one point. I would have preferred hermedia just cause he's above league average in the past and still young. A lot of people will probably dog the Pirates for not getting a ton for their guys. But even with a couple more average pitchers this year they would probably be at .500 or a few above right now. I wonder if this means they will bring up Andrew mcclutcheon now or continue to let him develop.

[henry296]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Wow... Pittsburgh ended up with a MUCH better deal than they would have gotten with the Florida proposed deal!

I'm not that impressed with Moss or LaRoche (unless it helps his brother hit in the first half). I know Hanson is a high potential guy but has had many chances already and probably isn't a future closer if Capps recovers. What about the other guy from the Dogers. For some reason the Tampa offer impressed me the most.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Yeah, I wasn't that excited about Manny straight up for Bay , though I knew "A" prospect would be included. However, I had no idea that the Sox would have to cough up Moss who is a decnt backup rightfielder and Hansen who has sucked so far but was a very high draft pickk with tons of upside. We really just gave whatever we had to. I also, think that if it wasn't for the last hour interest by the Devil Rays (same division as sox) the Sox wouldn't have agreed on this deal. So I think we wanted to get rid of manny but at the end we just wanted to keep the DevilRays from getting Bay and thusa lock in the East division.

Moss is a solid MLB regular, but he never would have gotten the chance in Boston - certainly not while Tito is managing (Moss should have been getting more AB's over Coco and Ellsbury when Ortiz was out. If he didn't get his chance then, when would he?) We have multiple solid AAAA outfielders to backup in addition to Coco - Van Every if we need someone to play the field, Chris Carter if we just need a DH/PH for September.

The only options to replace Manny as our big RH bat this offseason would be signing Teixiera to a huge deal and moving Youk from 1B where he's borderline GG to LF where he's average defensively, trading for Bay where we would have had to give up more straight up with the Pirates instead of having LA add Laroche, or trading for Holliday from Colorado, which would have cost as much or more than Bay (and his road splits are a big decline.)

In 2010, maybe Josh Reddick will be ready, or we can resign Bay if he does well here. Then we have to start worrying about replacing Ortiz/Drew as the big LH bats (Lars should be ready by then.)

Hansen has the potential, but he's still not throwing strikes. He's also out of options, and it wasn't guaranteed he'd make the roster next year. Combine that with the injury risk from his delivery and he (along with Moss) is much better for the Pirates than us. I wish we had gotten something to replace him in the pen this year like Ron Mahay, but hopefully Hunter Jones gets his chance now.

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by stevew

I can never root for bay again.

Why not? He's always been a good player for the Bucs and apparently a good guy, too. I despise the Red Sox but I still hope Bay does well there.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by henry296

I'm not that impressed with Moss or LaRoche (unless it helps his brother hit in the first half). I know Hanson is a high potential guy but has had many chances already and probably isn't a future closer if Capps recovers. What about the other guy from the Dogers. For some reason the Tampa offer impressed me the most.

Why doesn't Andy LaRoche impress you? He has some really nice stats in the minors.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by samifan24

Why not? He's always been a good player for the Bucs and apparently a good guy, too. I despise the Red Sox but I still hope Bay does well there.

Piss on the beaneaters

Anyways I guess laroche is supposed to be good at some point. I could deal with a two laroche infield I suppose. I wonder if this means they project Alvarez as more d a rf or if this was just a deal for now.

Anyways I have the feeling that in 2 years well be having the same conversations about doumit to the yanks and mcloth to the sox. Or vice versa.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by henry296

I'm not that impressed with Moss or LaRoche (unless it helps his brother hit in the first half). I know Hanson is a high potential guy but has had many chances already and probably isn't a future closer if Capps recovers. What about the other guy from the Dogers. For some reason the Tampa offer impressed me the most.

Niemann has #3 potential, but Brignac is ridiculously overrated. He had one good offensive year in the CAL league, but is Brandon Wood redux.

LaRoche is a much better talent who should have been playing earlier in LA. Similar to Moss, but LaRoche didn't have better players blocking him.

Hansen's a lottery ticket. He has the stuff, but his control is off. In the minors it was because Boras changed his delivery and he lost his slider, but even now that he's gone back to his orginal, violent delivery he still throws too many balls and walks too many guys.

[henry296]

I knew LaRoche was a high end prospect, but didn't realize how good his minor numbers were. I do get concerned when even top prospects bat near the mendoza line in the first 100 or so games. I know limited sample, but worries me as a leading indicator.

I have no problem with this trade, the goal realistically is to be competitive in 2010 or more likely 2011 and Bay and Nady probably aren't part of that plan. I think McClouth and Doumit will still be under Pirates control in those years.

[stevew]

I could see the pirates over 81 wins next year and in the wildcard mix in 2010. By then they will still have to find a middle infield and have the dollars to keep mccloth doumit and mahalom

[molson]

Originally Posted by stevew

I could see the pirates over 81 wins next year and in the wildcard mix in 2010. By then they will still have to find a middle infield and have the dollars to keep mccloth doumit and mahalom

Their revenue's also on the rise ($137 million last year), so they've set themselves up if they increase the payroll (they spent 60% of their revenue on payroll in '04, and only 39% in '07). If they get back up around 60% they'd be close to $85 million or more, assuming continued revenue increases.

(all according to Forbes.com)

[MrBug708]

A few thoughts....

Boston has only Boston to thank for Manny's attitude. He's been doing this for years but now that he isn't the MVP candidate that he once was, they've decided he wasn't worth the headache. Bay is an upgrade for Boston in the sense that he is cheaper (not that money really was an issue) and he isn't a headache. Then again, I can't see how Jason Bay will scare pitchers like Manny did. That isn't a good thing for Drew and Ortiz. And Bay is coming into a stadium that is better for hitters, he's also going to the AL and has struggled in interleague play. And now he's in the midst of a playoff race.

As for the Dodgers side. I like the idea of getting some sort of power hitter for the team. And LaRoche hasn't quite panned out like the Dodgers hoped (But neither did Edwin Jackson either), but now the Dodgers are paying like 50 million dollars to three OF's, two of which probably won't be on the field other then in situational roles. But who wants Pierre for his contract duration or Andruw Jones?

I think the Dodgers have no interest in picking up Manny's option and will be happy to take the draft picks

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by stevew

I could see the pirates over 81 wins next year and in the wildcard mix in 2010. By then they will still have to find a middle infield and have the dollars to keep mccloth doumit and mahalom

They are going to have to make some moves to reach either of those goals, I think. They currently only have one player with a .900+ OPS (Doumit), 2 players with a .850+ OPS (Doumit and McLouth). Meanwhile, Jack Wilson (.666), Freddy Sanchez (.603), and Jose Bautista (.745) will continue to receive a ton of AB's until LaRoche supplants at least one of them. The other LaRoche is a servicable below-average player for his position. The Pirates lost their two best offensive players this year (even though Nady was a perfect sell-high candidate). Doumit is having a classic 27-year-old breakout year, but I think he should be able to maintain an .800-.850 OPS over the next couple of years. The rest of the lineup will be filled with prospects who could pan out and players with limited ceilings.

I'm not sure that lineup can compare with the rest of the offenses in the division. And then there is the pitching (the weaker part of the team). It is young with upside, but the Pirates haven't done so well in developing young pitchers. This year, Maholm (3.79) is the only starter with a sub-5.00 ERA. I have no confidence that any of the three other young guns, Duke (5.27), Snell (6.04), and Gorzelanny (6.57) will ever approach their ceilings.

While I think the influx of young talent is nice for the Pirates, I think next year is going to be uglier than this year. They need to add a few components and hope that by 2010 things will start to turn around.

At least you have some hope, though. I'm a Nats fan.

[stevew]

I appreciate the analysis and I do agree with most all of it. Laroach and moss are both going to get a long look the rest of the year in the starting lineup. The offense obviously will go down the rest of this year but I think guys like Sanchez and laroache were headed back to their historic levels.

The pitching is obviously shit. But hope springs eternal.

Neal Huntington said Joey bats is a utility hit as of now. He will probably get non tendered or traded.

Sanchez has been an amazing out machine all year. They did some crap with batting the pitcher eighth and I was waiting for someone to tell him how many more runs would be created by moving Freddie to the bench.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Hearing that Bay to Tampa is not quite finalized yet, and Tampa thinks Bay is going to Boston. - Gammons

And here I thought Tampa just dropped the "Devil" in their name.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Schilling would know what a clubhouse disruption looks like, or someone not working in the offseason and showing up 20lbs overweight and I'm not sure he's really spending much time in the clubhouse this year (wasn't Ortiz there when on the DL but Schilling off at home?)

More seriously and ignoring the messenger, I don't get this line of argument. No one has ever given a convincing argument that "clubhouse chemistry" actually detracts from a team's performance on the field. Do guys like Varitek or Youkilis not try as hard at the plate because they had a bad day? Does Beckett or Lester not give 100% on the mound because Manny's in left? If they actually do, what does that say about them? And if they don't, then where does it hurt the teams on field performance?

I'll take an OF of Manny, Milton Bradley and JD Drew with Bonds at DH any day of the week.Yeah, we've definitely never seen Manny not running out ground balls or heard about him being a clubhouse cancer before. Say in 2004 or 2007 for example. He clearly made those teams worse, and it's only my love of numbers and lack of ability to watch a game that lead me to wanting Manny on the team.

Or maybe you're in the group of fans that doesn't want someone in "their" uniform unless they're perceived to be a good guy. FWIW - Varitek is an asshole, You is a douchebag and Pedroia is the cockiest person I've ever met. What goes on outside the lines has no effect on who I cheer for on the field and vice versa.


Bay to TB might not have gone through.

Curious, but what's Manny's WBA or whatever when he decides to not play because he doesn't like the pitcher going that day?

[Chief Rum]

Two things occur to me about this deal:

1. I am more interested now in watching the Dodgers play.

2. As a fan of a team that has been swept twice by the Red Sox in the postseason in the last four years, Ortiz-Manny-Lowell scared me a lot more than Ortiz-Bay-Lowell does.

[MrBug708]

Dont forget JD Drew!

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Dont forget JD Drew!

I'm not.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Curious, but what's Manny's WBA or whatever when he decides to not play because he doesn't like the pitcher going that day?

The same as JD Drew's or David Ortiz's when they're injured. And infinitely better than Jason Varitek's, Julio Lugo's or Alex Cora's when they are in the lineup.

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I'm not.

Hey, that's the reigning World Series MVP!

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

A few thoughts....

Boston has only Boston to thank for Manny's attitude. He's been doing this for years but now that he isn't the MVP candidate that he once was, they've decided he wasn't worth the headache. Bay is an upgrade for Boston in the sense that he is cheaper (not that money really was an issue) and he isn't a headache. Then again, I can't see how Jason Bay will scare pitchers like Manny did. That isn't a good thing for Drew and Ortiz. And Bay is coming into a stadium that is better for hitters, he's also going to the AL and has struggled in interleague play. And now he's in the midst of a playoff race.

As for the Dodgers side. I like the idea of getting some sort of power hitter for the team. And LaRoche hasn't quite panned out like the Dodgers hoped (But neither did Edwin Jackson either), but now the Dodgers are paying like 50 million dollars to three OF's, two of which probably won't be on the field other then in situational roles. But who wants Pierre for his contract duration or Andruw Jones?

I think the Dodgers have no interest in picking up Manny's option and will be happy to take the draft picks

Hey, Bug?

Red Sox are picking up the tab on Manny's contract this year.

Manny agreed to decline arbitration in exchange for the Dodgers declining his '09 and '10 options.

This isn't costing the Dodgers a penny in real cash.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

The same as JD Drew's or David Ortiz's when they're injured. And infinitely better than Jason Varitek's, Julio Lugo's or Alex Cora's when they are in the lineup.Hey, that's the reigning World Series MVP!

And AS MVP. And I still don't want him anywhere near a team I like.

[Sublime 2]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

And AS MVP. And I still don't want him anywhere near a team I like.

Only All Star MVP...Lowell was the 07 World Series MVP.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Schilling would know what a clubhouse disruption looks like, or someone not working in the offseason and showing up 20lbs overweight and I'm not sure he's really spending much time in the clubhouse this year (wasn't Ortiz there when on the DL but Schilling off at home?)

More seriously and ignoring the messenger, I don't get this line of argument. No one has ever given a convincing argument that "clubhouse chemistry" actually detracts from a team's performance on the field. Do guys like Varitek or Youkilis not try as hard at the plate because they had a bad day? Does Beckett or Lester not give 100% on the mound because Manny's in left? If they actually do, what does that say about them? And if they don't, then where does it hurt the teams on field performance?

I'll take an OF of Manny, Milton Bradley and JD Drew with Bonds at DH any day of the week.Yeah, we've definitely never seen Manny not running out ground balls or heard about him being a clubhouse cancer before. Say in 2004 or 2007 for example. He clearly made those teams worse, and it's only my love of numbers and lack of ability to watch a game that lead me to wanting Manny on the team.

Or maybe you're in the group of fans that doesn't want someone in "their" uniform unless they're perceived to be a good guy. FWIW - Varitek is an asshole, You is a douchebag and Pedroia is the cockiest person I've ever met. What goes on outside the lines has no effect on who I cheer for on the field and vice versa.


Bay to TB might not have gone through.

FWIW - 'Tek signed autographs for all the neighborhood kids on halloween and sat out front of his house in newton in a lawn chair, youk stopped for burritos for the team on his way to the park earlier this year and signed autographs for the hundreds of middle school kids who were at the burrito place (early release day), and I have nothing to say about pedroia

[Bad-example]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

Manny agreed to decline arbitration in exchange for the Dodgers declining his '09 and '10 options.

So the Dodgers can still offer arbitration and pick up a couple draft picks? That makes the deal much sweeter.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by stevew

A lot of people will probably dog the Pirates for not getting a ton for their guys.

I think the Pirates did very well, overall. I'm not as down on them for the Nady/Marte deal as I am high on the Yankees for making the trade and I like the Bay trade.

One of the Pirates biggest problems is outside of McCutchen they have damn near nothing in the minors. These two trades gave them quantity in Moss, Hansen, Morris, Ohlendorf, Karstens, Daniel McCutchen. They got quality in LaRoche. Then they got a high upside gamble in Tabata. Not bad considering what they gave up.

These are moves the old front offices in Pittsburgh were unable to make. I don't think the Pirates are going to be good in '09, but the creativity and willingness to deal Huntington showed is definitely reason to believe the Pirates will have another winning season eventually.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I think the Pirates did very well, overall. I'm not as down on them for the Nady/Marte deal as I am high on the Yankees for making the trade and I like the Bay trade.

One of the Pirates biggest problems is outside of McCutchen they have damn near nothing in the minors. These two trades gave them quantity in Moss, Hansen, Morris, Ohlendorf, Karstens, Daniel McCutchen. They got quality in LaRoche. Then they got a high upside gamble in Tabata. Not bad considering what they gave up.

These are moves the old front offices in Pittsburgh were unable to make. I don't think the Pirates are going to be good in '09, but the creativity and willingness to deal Huntington showed is definitely reason to believe the Pirates will have another winning season eventually.

I do have faith in the current regime that they will find talent and help it develop. For insance their shoestring budget bench has come up huge this year. The Doug m guy with the hard to spell last name has been much more versitile than I thought. He's played third and right good enoughn to spell some guys. Plus he has that classic gritty white boy hustle team leader thing down pat and only makes about a mill. He will Be a good manager in the future

The pitching being this awful is not a good sign however. I dunno if doumit not being a great catcher is some of the problem. It can't help. If they can get guys back to merely pitching average next year they should improve some. Although they obviously lost a lot of offense.

Laroache just has to work out and right now his major league record is weak. Hopefully he can inspire his brother to hit before July. When Adam is on he's a fuckin beast. He was killing the ball for about the last 100 or so AB before he got hurt. Before that he was weak sauce

Doumit and mclouth really responded well this year which is a great sign obviously. With the power porch in right they could use another lefty power bat. I think moss and Andy are both rightys though. They have jobs to lose

I'll amend my statements if they don't pay the ransom for Alvarez. They knew going in he was an excess of 10m guarantee guy with boras so they better not go cheap and claim foul play

Hansen might get a look at closer. He probably has better stuff than capps. I'm glad capps was hurt cause he was getting lit up before he went down.

I sure hope zach duke is hurt. Otherwise he needs to get sent down or moved to the pen. 11 something era in his last 5 starts. He's never going to be the elite guy he flashed as a rookie but I don't think he's this awful. Although his last 2 years seem to indicate he does suck.

[korme]

Originally Posted by Lathum

this post made me laugh...

I never understood the hate for Dunn. Of course you want more avaerage but the guy can change a game in one swing.

The Reds pitching is so young and talented ( assuming Dusty doesn't wreck all their arms) I can see them being a contender in the next 1-3 years. Keeping Dunn around adds veteren leadership and a big bat. Bruce is gonna continue to develop, Edwin is getting better, and Phillips is a stud( especialy on defense).

If they can add a little bullpen depth and maybe an above average hitting first baseman they can be scary.

I'm fine with Votto. Look at you, Lathum. CIN > NYM?!!

[SirFozzie]

Boston Red Sox - Ramírez lobbied to stay - The Boston Globe

Of all the Manny moments in Boston, the last ranks as one of the most confounding. Within an hour after Red Sox general manager Theo Epstein informed Manny Ramírez he had been traded to the Los Angeles Dodgers Thursday, Ramírez's agent, Scott Boras, called the Sox back, according to a source with direct knowledge of the negotiations. If the Sox dropped the option years on his contract - which they had agreed to do if they traded him - Boras said Ramírez would not be a problem the rest of the season.

For the Sox, the source said, Ramírez's pledge of good behavior only served as a tacit admission that his disruptive conduct of the last couple of weeks had been calculated, and they had had good cause to suspect more was in the offing if they did not trade him. The Sox told him thanks but no thanks, what was done was done, and pack plenty of sunscreen.

You think Manny realized he overplayed his hand at the end?

[Chief Rum]

Gawd, Gary Matthews Jr. is such a waste of a player.

[sterlingice]

Just had a fun little scuffle in the Royals game. Olivo gets hit (again) by the White Sox- that's gotta be at least 3 if not 4 times this year. Probably not intentional this time with the bases loaded, but it was already 6-0 and looking worse.

Olivo runs out at the pitcher but gives the pitcher a second to react and Pierzynski grabs him from behind. So he gets what he really wants, a chance to punch AJ, who looks like a real tool with his goofy blond hair, a couple of times.

Also, John Buck gets to enter the game as a friend of mine put it, "using a little poetic license", as a pinch runner.

I would not be surprised to see a White Sox, particularly AJ, hit later on in the game by a scrubby reliever for the Royals.

SI

[Chief Rum]

Oh, and Teixeira is great. Thank you, short porch in Yankee RF.

I think GMJ owes Teix a chocolate shake or something.

[Chief Rum]

Apparently there are no limits to the depth the Angels will go to hand this game to the Yanks. Maybe they're trying to help the Yanks get into the postseason to make sure they play them there.

It's now a tie ballgame. Two more errors let the Bombers tie it up again in the bottom of the eighth.

People should be watching this for the pure comedy.

[Chief Rum]

Comedy. ARod hits an inning-ending double play ball with the bases loaded. Except Figgins boots it. Everyone safe. Still one out. And now we're losing.

This is just pathetic. Three errors in this inning. Four in the game. A fifth (also by Figgins) was ruled a hometown hit. Absolutely abysmal decision making by management in the sixth in keeping Lackey in. And wasting some terrific play by the offense trying to generate runs with Vlad on a day off and Torii in Arkansas for his grandma's funeral.

[Chief Rum]

No one's watching this?

Another ball off of Figgins' glove into left field. It probably deserved the hit it got because it wasn't an easy play, but it was made hard because Figgins leaned the wrong way off of the bat. It was definitely a makeable play. More runs score.

Oliver then struck out Sexson for the second out which should have come seven batters ago. Good idea, Darren. If you strike them out, the ball never has a chance for our pathetic defense to fuck it up.

Well, out of the inning. We allowed so many runs, Rivera doesn't even need to come in.

[INDalltheway]

I was watching and couldn't believe how they were giving them runs.. The Nady homerun then the Tex slam was pretty entertaining ball.

[Jas_lov]

I was also watching the Angels make 4 errors and give up 10 unearned runs, it truly was comical. The new additions in the Yankee offense, Nady and Pudge, came up big today. The new addition in the Tigers bullpen, Kyle Farnsworth, blew the save.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by korme

I'm fine with Votto. Look at you, Lathum. CIN > NYM?!!

never!

Votto is a nice player but hasn't shown the development I expected from him. He seems to get HR's in bunches then dissapear.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Lathum

never!

Votto is a nice player but hasn't shown the development I expected from him. He seems to get HR's in bunches then dissapear.

This is only Votto's first season. He is hitting .270-something with 13 homers with 60 games to go. I mean, we lived with Sean Casey hitting .300 with 2 home runs a season for like 7 years. I think Votto has a chance to get there within the next year or two.

His defense needs some work though. He has botched more than a couple of simple bouncers to first this year, and needs to learn when to come off the bag to avoid an error instead of trying to pick a bad throw clean, then watching it bounce into the seats.

[MrBug708]

Manny has had a solid three games thus far. 8-13 with 2 HR's

[molson]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

You think Manny realized he overplayed his hand at the end?

Nah, he got exactly what he wanted, the option years waived. I don't think he cared whether he went to LA or stayed in Boston, as long as he could be a free agent at the end of the season.

Boras talked him into it so he can get a cut of Manny's new contract (that's what Boras does, it's Boras first, client second) - it's certainly no slam dunk that he can find that $20/year million in free agency, especially after all this.

[mckerney]

Woohoo, first place for the Twins! And they've managed to get there even with Go-Oh For Four-mez in the lineup everyday.

[sterlingice]

Hey, we did our part in KC this weekend. Hell, we'd like our fruit basket at the end of the season for helping you out

2-7 Twins
5-7 White Sox
6-3 Tigers
4-4 Indians

SI

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Hey, we did our part in KC this weekend. Hell, we'd like our fruit basket at the end of the season for helping you out

2-7 Twins
5-7 White Sox
6-3 Tigers
4-4 Indians

SI

After incident with the champagne Torii Hunter sent the Royals in 2006 I'm not sure we can do that.

Thanks though.

[miami_fan]

Ozzie admits to ordering past retaliation - MLB - Yahoo! Sports

Ozzie admits to ordering past retaliation
By Jeff Passan, Yahoo! Sports
Aug 3, 9:23 pm EDT

AP - Aug 3, 5:13 pm EDT MLB Gallery
More From Jeff PassanThe Kid, reborn with the White Sox Aug 4, 2008 Yankees barely contain glee at Ramirez trade Aug 1, 2008

KANSAS CITY, Mo. – Ozzie Guillen earned himself an almost certain suspension Sunday afternoon. He told a dirty little secret.

“I’ve hit people before on purpose,” said Guillen, the Chicago White Sox manager, after a game Sunday in which umpires levied a suspect ejection in the fifth inning of a blowout when Chicago reliever D.J. Carrasco hit Kansas City’s Miguel Olivo with the bases loaded and incited a bench-emptying square dance.

“Yes I have,” Guillen continued. “Because that’s my job. Protect my players.”

Managers know better than to admit publicly one of baseball’s most unsavory truths, that a select number of hit-by-pitches registered each year come laced with intent. The purpose pitch – or the purpose hit, in these instances – is simply a part of baseball, and whether it’s to keep a batter from getting too comfortable or avenge some kind of perceived misdeed, it will never go away, no matter how much Major League Baseball tries to police its game.

Baseball sees this as the type of thing reserved for hockey, or Ron Artest, which is why it likely will drop the hammer on Guillen sometime this week. And yet as he continued his rant following the White Sox’s 14-3 loss that dropped them out of first place in the American League Central for the first time since May 16, a kernel of truth revealed itself. This wasn’t a typical Ozzie blowup, full of misguided fire and silly brimstone, a mouth shooting out Silly String. He made mountains of sense, and his point is something that baseball ought to consider instead of condemn.

“Sometimes people have to have a little bit of common sense,” Guillen said. “I’m talking about the umpires, I’m not talking about Olivo.”


Well, Olivo needs it, too. He charged the mound after getting hit in the hand with the bases loaded in a blowout game by a pitcher whose fastball doesn’t touch 90 mph on a fast gun.

All of which relates back to Sunday’s home-plate umpire Tim Timmons and crew chief Gary Cederstrom. Dusting a batter is not black and white. However basic and brute the act, it takes a fair amount of consideration.

Who do you hit? Where do you hit him? Why do you hit him? When do you hit him?

“You think I’m going to bring somebody in to hit somebody and they’re going to throw a fastball 82 (mph) at the hands?” Guillen said. “I’m going to bring in my best guy and make sure he gets it done. That’s Major League Baseball. That’s baseball. That’s the baseball I grew up with. Not the (expletive) they play right now.”

By his best guy, Guillen said he meant Octavio Dotel or Matt Thornton, both of whom throw 95 mph. Carrasco is a sinkerball pitcher, and with one out and a slow-running free swinger at the plate, he threw three consecutive pitches inside trying to induce a double-play ball. Even Ozzie isn’t twisted enough to call for a retaliation pitch with the bases loaded just so he can cloak it with a good excuse.

Context counts.

An umpires’ biggest weakness – and this goes from the best (Tim McClelland) to the worst (C.B. Bucknor) – is delineating between pitching inside and throwing at a hitter.

Don’t cast this as an indictment on the whole lot. By and large, umpires are very good at their jobs. They get the vast majority of calls correct, employ consistent strike zones and remain strong in big moments. While failure is minimal, the scrutiny that results is exponentially worse.

Still, the tack baseball takes toward hit batsmen often inflames situations rather than extinguish them. Cederstrom explained that Carrasco’s three pitches were “up and in.” The pitch that hit Olivo nicked him on the wrist, which might be in but wasn’t up enough to arouse any suspicion.

“If he would’ve hit me with the first pitch, I would’ve been happy to take first base,” Olivo admitted. “But three times inside? It’s just so obvious.”

Actually, it wasn’t obvious at all, though emotions and memories and feelings tend to scuttle the truth in these situations. Guillen said Royals pitchers hit the White Sox six or seven times in a series in late July. It was five. And Olivo said Chicago had hit him three times this season. Carrasco’s was the second.

Guillen later said that on July 20, he instructed Carrasco to hit Royals designated hitter Billy Butler as retaliation for a Horacio Ramirez pitch that sidelined Jermaine Dye.

Carrasco missed. So much for Ozzie calling on his big guns.

If there was a time Sunday for a hit-by-pitch, Guillen said, it came earlier in the fifth inning. With Kansas City ahead 6-0, Mark Teahen led off the inning by trying to reach via a bunt.

“When Teahen bunts up by six runs, I didn’t even hit him. I should’ve,” Guillen said. “To teach him a lesson how to play baseball. And I didn’t. That’s why I want Major League Baseball to look at this thing the right way. … Everybody knows in the dugout Teahen did the wrong thing.”

Guillen didn’t stop there, and by the end, he had spent eight minutes bloviating on right and wrong. Whether he’s the correct emissary for such a conversation is dubious. In 2006, Guillen sent rookie reliever Sean Tracey into a game specifically to plunk Hank Blalock. Tracey missed. Guillen went bonkers. Tracey cried. Guillen shipped him to the minors the next day.

He hasn’t been back.

Credibility problems aside, Guillen’s honesty – or, perhaps better, forthrightness – does buy him some capital. He is right: Richie Garcia, the umpire supervisor at Kauffman Stadium, should be embarrassed. Had Olivo not charged the mound, Carrasco probably would not have been ejected. The umpires reacted poorly in concert with Olivo’s doing so.

The fact is, fights in baseball happen. Umpires may cut down on them by thumbing pitchers who throw inside, but the game, too, suffers. Players tend to police themselves. Unless they start throwing at each other’s heads – and with so much money at stake, that simply doesn’t happen anymore – umpires should be instructed to back off.


Fat chance. Status quo reigns. Guillen will get suspended. Same with Olivo, Carrasco and Royals starter Zack Greinke, who plunked Nick Swisher in the hip with a retaliation pitch (which, naturally, he denied). We’ll see more subterfuge and refutations and nastiness, because, as Guillen said, “I signed a five-year deal with this organization, and we play Kansas City a lot.”

And the dirty little secret is out.

Jeff Passan is a national baseball writer for Yahoo! Sports. Send Jeff a question or comment for potential use in a future column or webcast.
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So telling the truth might get you suspended

[molson]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

So telling the truth might get you suspended

If all players told the truth teams would have trouble fielding an entire roster.

[Logan]

If there was a time Sunday for a hit-by-pitch, Guillen said, it came earlier in the fifth inning. With Kansas City ahead 6-0, Mark Teahen led off the inning by trying to reach via a bunt.

“When Teahen bunts up by six runs, I didn’t even hit him. I should’ve,” Guillen said. “To teach him a lesson how to play baseball. And I didn’t. That’s why I want Major League Baseball to look at this thing the right way. … Everybody knows in the dugout Teahen did the wrong thing.”

Yes, because no one has ever come back from a 6-0 deficit with 5 innings to play. Give me a fucking break. Did Ozzie stop pinch-hitting? Allow relievers to continue to be smacked around, because after all, the game is over, why waste any of your other pitchers?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Logan

Yes, because no one has ever come back from a 6-0 deficit with 5 innings to play. Give me a fucking break. Did Ozzie stop pinch-hitting? Allow relievers to continue to be smacked around, because after all, the game is over, why waste any of your other pitchers?

There's a lot of really stupid unwritten rules that must have been established during the dead ball era.

[sterlingice]

If you watch the fight, it was clear Olivo didn't want to go after Carrasco. He gave DJ quite a bit of time to react and didn't really go after him. But as soon as Pierzinski tried to get him a little harder, he went right after AJ. Olivo is built like a fireplug- he didn't want to go after the spindly pitcher, he wanted the bitchy opposing catcher and he got his wish.

SI