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View Poll Results: Who will (not should) be the Democratic presidential nominee in 2008? | |||
Joe Biden | 0 | 0% | |
Hillary Clinton | 62 | 35.84% | |
Christopher Dodd | 0 | 0% | |
John Edwards | 10 | 5.78% | |
Mike Gravel | 1 | 0.58% | |
Dennis Kucinich | 2 | 1.16% | |
Barack Obama | 97 | 56.07% | |
Bill Richardson | 1 | 0.58% | |
Voters: 173. You may not vote on this poll |
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03-17-2008, 04:39 PM | #1451 | |
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Of course not, but when your campaign is based upon unity and hope, how can you so closely associate yourself with someone so divisive? Certainly, this is going to cause many to question whether your message is honest or simply good politics. If he were campaigning on economic stimuli and health care reforms, it would be less on an issue. He's not and never has. |
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03-17-2008, 05:01 PM | #1452 | |
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This is how I see it. I understand the concerns, though, but I think ultimately this will be no big deal. |
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03-17-2008, 05:02 PM | #1453 | |
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Oh, I think he knew. In January 2007, Obama asked Wright if he would deliver a public invocation at his announcement to run for president. But Wright said Mr. Obama called him the night before the Feb. 10 announcement and rescinded the invitation to give the invocation. Instead, he prayed in private with Obama before the announcement. |
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03-17-2008, 05:03 PM | #1454 |
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CNN says no Florida re-vote.
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03-17-2008, 05:06 PM | #1455 |
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03-17-2008, 05:09 PM | #1456 | |
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http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archi...17/776838.aspx Quote:
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03-17-2008, 05:37 PM | #1457 |
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03-17-2008, 05:41 PM | #1458 | |
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This is interesting:
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmi...News_Hour.html From a Newshour interview by Gwen Ifill talking to Barack Obama: Quote:
Okay, seriously... if that's the major focus of the speech then I'm just about willing to pronounce the Obama campaign over. Obama's been saying "we're the one's we've been waiting for." But this seems to be "You are the one with the problem." I mean this is the same platitudinal bullshit that Obama's been saying all along. And this is his big address on race? Wow. As a sneak preview, color me unimpressed.
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03-17-2008, 05:48 PM | #1459 | |
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dola
Another gem from the same interview: Quote:
I'm finding Obama's responses amazingly pedestrian (for lack of a better word). I thought he was supposed to be a rhetorical genius.
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03-17-2008, 06:00 PM | #1460 |
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03-17-2008, 06:39 PM | #1461 |
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Tribune editorial on Rezko and Obama after he spent time with them answering every question they had about it. Story ran yesterday.
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03-17-2008, 10:14 PM | #1462 |
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The Florida revote means nothing come the general. There isn't one person who will switch there vote due to the primary delegates. I think it's likely a red state, but that has nothing to do with any revote issues.
As to Wright, humans have a tendency to buy into conspiracies. This certainly isn't something specific to Wright or black churches. Look at how many people think Saddam was behind 9/11 or how many think it was a Jewish/government plot. People of all ideologies are prone to believe bullshit conspiracies when the truth is too hard or random to accept. While Wright is offbase to think HIV was a government plot, unfortunately he's certainly not on the fringe to believe in crazy conspiracies. Supergrover: I know it will hurt him politically, but I still don't see how Wright's words change Obama's positions. In the end the choice is clear, do you believe everything he's said for decades or do you believe it's all a conspiracy designed to put some sort of Black power radical in the White House?
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03-17-2008, 10:20 PM | #1463 |
This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off.
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03-17-2008, 10:30 PM | #1464 | |
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I think you are stretching it there. People who believe in crazy conspiracies are definately on the fringe as it pertains to those beliefs. |
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03-17-2008, 10:35 PM | #1465 |
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This actually happened at the best possible time for Obama, because there's no votes for five more weeks. This will be a dead story by then
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03-17-2008, 10:39 PM | #1466 |
This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off.
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I also think trying to bring some legitimacy to conspiracy theories by equating the Sadam & 9/11 issue with the government/HIV thing is way off-base and a bit disturbing. One is an incorrect belief based on a mistaken set of facts; the other is truly a fringe, wacko belief. Misinformation does not equal a conspiracy.
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M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete." Last edited by Ksyrup : 03-17-2008 at 10:40 PM. |
03-17-2008, 10:45 PM | #1467 | ||
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Well, he has announced he will give a speach tomorrow (Tuesday) on the subject, going beyond the comments, but to discuss the issue of race in the campaign. Here is his quote: Quote:
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03-17-2008, 10:53 PM | #1468 |
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Ksyrup: I completely disagree. Remember that the government did in fact let blacks suffer the ravages of syphilis long after we knew the cure. Saying that HIV is a government invention to a poor, black audience does have a perverse set of facts that backs that up. After all it wouldn't be incorrect to say, "The US government has studied sexually transmitted diseases by withholding treatment from black men and allowing them to die.
Certainly you'd agree that saying that 9/11 was a government conspiracy is just as nuts? And if you don't want to accept that what about people who believe that Kofi Annan is/was the Anti-Christ? Or that there are backward messages in heavy metal? Or that I-35 will be some super highway to multi-nationalism? I'd bet that over half the population believes in some sort of crazy conspiracy theory.
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03-17-2008, 11:22 PM | #1469 |
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I didn't put much stock into Rev. Wright's conspiracy rants until he brought up that part about Neil O'Donnell being paid to throw Superbowl XXX away.
I now blame George Bush for the sickle cell. |
03-18-2008, 01:37 AM | #1470 | |
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WTF are you talking about? When did I say anything about conspiracies? Look, Obama's entire campaign has been based upon the fact he's different. He's a uniting force of nature that will bring and end to disparate politics and instead foster change through cooperation and understanding. That's it. Now, how can someone bring about unification when he calls someone family who is obviously a crackpot? Should Wright's opinions affect your views of Obama? Not if you believe in him because of policies. However, if you believe in him as a conduit of unity, then Wright's words better reverberate, because I guarantee you they will with many in this country. |
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03-18-2008, 01:41 AM | #1471 | |
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He was linking Saddam and 9/11 not the government and 9/11. Anyone who believes HIV and crack are government conspiracies doesn't deserve to be part of any intelligent discourse on race in this country. |
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03-18-2008, 07:26 AM | #1472 |
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Supergrover: But there's no evidence that Obama believes any of the most offensive things that Wright has said. I still want to know how Wright's statements change Obama's positions. In the end what's truly important is what Obama will or won't do. Wright's words in and of themselves don't mean anything to me.
Will it hurt Obama, of course. I said many posts ago that I wouldn't be surprised if Wright kills Obama's campaign sooner or later. My point is that most of the people going crazy about Wright are people that were opposed to Obama to begin with and see a way to destroy him. I don't believe that any of you seriously believe that Obama is secretly a black separatist. On conspiracies in general, I've been giving this a lot of thought. I think people are so drawn to conspiracy theories because they are a way to retain a predetermined worldview in the face of contrary evidence. Without doing the research necessary to prove this, I would hypothesize that some, perhaps most, people are more willing to accept an irrational theory that supports their closely held beliefs than accept verifiable facts that go against their beliefs. I'd bet that while each individual conspiracy theory is on the fringe, the totality of fringe conspiracy believers in general is near or above a majoity of the population.
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03-18-2008, 07:35 AM | #1473 | |
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Wait a minute - "9/11 was a government conspiracy" and "9/11 was perpetrated by Sadam Hussein" are two totally different things. One is a true conspiracy theory, the other a mistaken belief. That's the dichotomy I was trying to draw with the Sadam/HIV thing. There is no Sadam "conspiracy theory." And also, I can say from personal experience that there are, in fact, backwards messages in heavy metal. But they were either purposely planted there, or just something that people think they hear from a mish-mosh of sounds...they weren't placed there by Satan. And yes, I had an awful lot of free time during college.
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M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete." Last edited by Ksyrup : 03-18-2008 at 07:37 AM. |
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03-18-2008, 07:36 AM | #1474 |
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Exactly, I was responding to the original comment using the Sadam example.
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03-18-2008, 07:40 AM | #1475 | |
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What a fucking whiner. She won the state, now she's quibbling.
Quote:
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03-18-2008, 07:42 AM | #1476 |
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Ksyrup: I'm not trying to attack you on a 9/11 conspiracy. All I'm trying to point out is that there are a multitude of fringe conspiracies that people believe in and are no objectively crazier than Wright's beliefs. We humans seem to have a love for hard to explain conspiracies. That's my point.
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03-18-2008, 07:55 AM | #1477 | |
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I don't take it as an attack, I'm just pointing out the difference between a true conspiracy and a mistaken belief that you lumped in as being equivalent to a conspiracy. The problem with making a statement like "there are a multitude of fringe conspiracies that people believe in and are no objectively crazier than Wright's beliefs" is that it legitimizes them to some extent AND excuses him from any responsibility in the position he's in. Personally, I'm fascinated by certain conspiracy theories. I remember when I first heard of that Titor guy years ago, I spent a solid week reading stuff on the net about it. And then when I finished, I came back to reality and put that back on the shelf where it belonged, in the fiction section. I also have some issues with people who buy into that kind of stuff. Yes, I know people who legitimately believe 9/11 was started by Bush as a pretext for the Iraq War, and also believe Pearl Harbor was bombed by the US as a reason to get us into WWII. I do not give their opinions much credence. But they're just people posting on a messageboard. They are not on a pulpit preaching to people and mixing conspiracy theories with the Word of God. Let's say a Cabinet member of Congressman or someone bought into the 9/11 conspiracy theory. Do you think it would be responsible of them to use their office as a means to argue their belief? And if they did that, would you not think less of them or question their judgment on other things? Again, this all comes back to Obama - which is the reason we're even discussing this - and me just not understanding how one could listen to something like this and not want to get as far away from it as possible. It's one thing to argue that the US government has not acted in the best interests of the black community. It's another to throw out such ridiculous nonsense as fact, in the context of being the leader of a church.
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03-18-2008, 08:10 AM | #1478 |
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We have exactly what you describe in Congress right now. James Inhofe has said that 9/11 was punishment by God for America's sins. In the White House it's been widely reported that Cheney is a fan of Laurie Mylroie who wrote that the 1993 WTC bombing was Saddam's doing. Richard Perle even wrote a blurb for the cover saying the book was, "splendid and wholly convincing." I'm sure some of the same people pushing the Clinton/drug dealer stuff in the nineties are working in the White House now. I bet I could find more if I tried.
I'm not trying to excuse Wright's conspiracy theories. I'm just trying to make it clear that the belief in conspiracy theories in general is a mainstream position. Honestly it's more of an academic argument, but since I'm an academic it has appeal to me.
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03-18-2008, 08:12 AM | #1479 | |
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She actually didn't win the state, if winning means the person who got the most delegates. She won the primary, but he won the caucus and that resulted in a positive net number of delegates for him. The media invented that she won, but he won more delegates out of Texas than she did. And she has no one to blame for the process, since Bill Clinton was part of the group that helped re-write the rules there back in the 90s. |
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03-18-2008, 08:50 AM | #1480 | |
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I simply disagree. It's not mainstream. Curiosity in conpiracies is mainstream; belief in nearly all of them (I'll allow that there is probably some bit of truth to some conspiracy theory out there somewhere) is either flat-out ignorance or, as you say, something people latch onto as a way to explain the unexplainable. I've never heard of the WTC or Clinton/drug dealer things, and they certainly are not out there as mainstream positions. Frankly, given the political implications of the Clinton thing, my guess is that is/'was being pushed more for political gain than as a belief in a "conspiracy theory." And the Inhofe thing you refer to is NOT a conspiracy theory, either - unless you're arguing that God is conspiring against us. That's a Falwellian comment that got some play when it happened, but I don't see any evidence that it took hold in the mainstream public as having any legitimacy. It's just a stupid comment from the kind of person that has made me, as a conservative, all but decide I'm either sitting this election out, or voting Libertarian.
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M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete." Last edited by Ksyrup : 03-18-2008 at 08:51 AM. |
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03-18-2008, 09:27 AM | #1481 |
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If you don't like Inhofe what about Sen Coburn's assertion that there are so many lesbians in Oklahoma schools that girls can only go to the bathroom one at a time?
As to Inhofe's comment, that kind of assertion has been preached by numerous pastors around the country. I'd imagine tens of thousands of people or more have heard some variant of God caused 9/11. If you won't see that as a conspiracy theory, at least you should be able to see it's of no substantive difference to God damn America. Mylroie is fairly influencial within a subset of Neocons, it just so happens that many of them are also the ones running the country. If Obama's relationship with Wright is out of bounds why isn't Cheney's agreement with Mylroie? The Clinton drug dealer stuff was in the Wall Street Journal. It's crazy, but certainly was out in the mainstream. Again, though, I'm not arguing that any one conspiracy is a mainstream thought, just that belief in conspiracies in general is mainstream.
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03-18-2008, 09:37 AM | #1482 |
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Just to aid in the discussion here:
con·spir·a·cy /k?n'sp?r?si/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kuhn-spir-uh-see] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, plural -cies. 1. the act of conspiring. 2. an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot. 3. a combination of persons for a secret, unlawful, or evil purpose: He joined the conspiracy to overthrow the government. 4. Law. an agreement by two or more persons to commit a crime, fraud, or other wrongful act. 5. any concurrence in action; combination in bringing about a given result. Many people believing in something crazy (e.g. God caused 9/11) isn't a conspiracy. |
03-18-2008, 09:43 AM | #1483 | |
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Re: Coburn... I don't even know what that means, or that it logically makes sense. It sounds stupid on its face, though. Re: Inhofe, the issue here is the influence of someone like that on the President, not the statement/idea in a vaccuum. So even accepting your suggestion that the Inhofe statement is equivalent to the God Damn America statement, the question is, shouldn't the influence of the person making the statement on a Presidential candidate at least be a consideration when judging the candidate? If Bush considered Inhoke a close confidant and spiritual guide, then I think it would be proper to question whether Bush agrees with that kind of statement. That's he just a Senator means the party as a whole should have to answer for it, to the extent he represents the party, but I don't see this as analogous to the Obama situation, given his close relationship to Wright. Re: Mylroie - this goes back to the hindsight thing. Sure, that link should have been questioned. What are you going to do about it now? We have the information about Obama/Wright now, and therefore it may or may not play a part in our evaluation of the candidate, as we each see fit.
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03-18-2008, 09:44 AM | #1484 |
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I think this discussion of Wright and Obama could get to something interesting if allowed. The fact is that in churches all across the country, of varying ethnic compositions, angry rhetoric is the norm. Political speech is heard every Sunday. Hateful attacks on some mysterious "them" is a part of weekly sermons all around the country. The fact is that Wright's type of angry denunciation isn't by any means unique. A discussion about what is said in churches of varying political and racial mixes could benefit the country.
There's also the issue of tone. It was kind of sad to watch David Broder Sunday fret over the way Wright spoke. He was almost more fearful of the style than the words and I imagine his reaction is pretty common among older, mainstream Christians. In reality, though, that style that evolded from the Pentecostal tradition is common in lots of churches, regardless of racial makeup. The passion and fire of these preachers is what draws folks in regardless of that particular Sunday's message. If this controversy were able to expose more Americans to some of the different strains in American Christianity it would be good for all of us. I don't expect that to happen, but it would be nice.
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03-18-2008, 09:44 AM | #1485 | |
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Quote:
That's what I've been trying to get at.
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M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete." |
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03-18-2008, 09:47 AM | #1486 |
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I wonder what the pastor of W's church has said in his sermons or, for that matter, what kind of things Rev. Huckabee said in his....
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03-18-2008, 09:50 AM | #1487 | |
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I have to say that I have no idea what you are talking about here. Not that it's not true, but I personally have never been to a service where something even remotely close to this has happened. And I've been attending church services (fairly ) regularly my entire life. Maybe it's that I have always attended "mainstream" denominations - United Methodist and Presbyterian (with a couple of Catholic services when visiting my parents). But I have never heard "angry rhetoric" at a church service, never had political views expressed - in fact, I've heard many preachers go out of their way to say "however you choose to vote this week" or something along those lines. Even when something like abortion is raised, it's never in a political setting. Can't say I've ever heard a discussion of the gay lifestyle in church, other than how it affects who can be ordained. In short, I don't relate to this at all, and perhaps that's why I'm coming down on this where I do, because I would hightail it out of any church that even discussed politics to any substantive extent, let alone went off on "angry rhetoric" bends on certain issues under the guise of teaching the Word of God.
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03-18-2008, 09:50 AM | #1488 |
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Ksyrup: I'm close to agreeing with you. My question would be, what influence do Wright's words/thoughts have on Obama? As far as I can tell from what he's done and said over the past decade Wright's controversial thoughts have had no influence whatsoever. If evidence can be shown that Obama actually believes what Wright said I would quickly change my opinion of Obama. Until then, Wright's word's are just that, Wright's words.
Much the same way you say Bush's decisions aren't based on Inhofe's thoughts I believe Obama's decisions haven't been based on Wright's thoughts. I'd say the same about McCain and Hagee/Robertson/Falwell also. I'm much more concerned about what the actual candidate says and does as opposed to the supporters/mentors/endorsers.
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03-18-2008, 09:51 AM | #1489 | |
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But what substantive difference is there in a crazy conspiracy theory and a crazy theory?
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03-18-2008, 09:55 AM | #1490 |
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The text of the speech is out there.
hxxp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/18/obama-race-speech-read-t_n_92077.html hxxp://drudgereport.com/flashos.htm Choose the link that is least offensive to your sensibilities.
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03-18-2008, 09:56 AM | #1491 |
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Ksyrup: I've also been with mainstream churches my whole life (Methodist, Disciples of Christ), but I have enough friends and relatives that are evangelicals and have seen enough video to know this goes on all across the country. I couldn't begin to tell you how many people are exposed to this weekly and it's important to note that even the churches that engage in the type of speech that we're talking about don't do it every Sunday. It's important for people to realize that this kind of sermon is by no means limited to one guy in Chicago.
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03-18-2008, 09:57 AM | #1492 |
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This thread is unplayable.
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03-18-2008, 09:59 AM | #1493 | |
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I guess for me, the bottom line is that it goes to the candidate's judgment and leaves a lingering question of whether the person has left any lasting influence on him that would manifest itself. But mostly, it's just judgment - how can you not outright reject that in action, not just in words? And by that I mean, you don't attend his church, and you certainly don't have him as a part of the most significant moments of your life. That is very troubling to me. I mean honestly, if I came on this board and made it known that while I personally don't believe that killing abortion doctors is right, but that one of my closest friends advocates killing doctors, you wouldn't store that information about me in the back of your mind and approach me a little differently than you otherwise would? I'm not talking about a relative you're stuck with and have to put up with on Thanksgiving - Obama was free to choose or reject this man as a spiritual advisor, and seems to have embraced him. That may not tell me that Obama is going to act on his advisor's outrageous statements, but that tells me something about Obama's judgment. And it's not good. That's the bottom line for me.
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03-18-2008, 10:06 AM | #1494 | |
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The following is the text of Barack Obama's speech in Philadelphia, as prepared for delivery and provided by his campaign.
Quote:
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03-18-2008, 10:07 AM | #1495 |
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I'd say he hit the proverbial home run with the speech.
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Thinkin' of a master plan 'Cuz ain't nuthin' but sweat inside my hand So I dig into my pocket, all my money is spent So I dig deeper but still comin' up with lint |
03-18-2008, 10:11 AM | #1496 | |
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Quote:
Mostly I was trying to point out that you and Ksyrup were arguing past each other because you were talking about different things by using "conspiracy theory" in different definitions. To answer your question though, I would say there is a big difference. Preaching that God caused 9/11 for whatever reason is probably not going to cause too much action. People aren't going to go attack God for being mean to us. People of different religions probably aren't going to start fighting over a theory like that. A conspiracy theory - like saying the (White) government created HIV to kill Black people could be potentially damaging. People believing in conspiracy theories tend to become very unhappy with those doing the conspiring, and they have an actual target to direct that unhappiness toward. |
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03-18-2008, 10:21 AM | #1497 | |
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Dayton, OH
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Let me get this straight. Did you see the movie JFK? If so, you must believe in conspiracies. That is exactly what you are saying here. Just because some one reads a book does not mean that they subscribe to a conspiracy theory. Just because I meet some one once does not mean that I am a close advisor. If you attend a church for 20 years and this same person is very influential in the writing of your book, that person is a big influence over your life. If a lifelong catholic runs for the White House, I can understand abortion advocates being concerned with abortion legislation being passed, regarless of the candidate's actual statements regarding his position. This is the same thing. The problem that Obama has, and will have is that he cannot let the debate devolve into issues. He will be seen as a fringe liberal, and that will scare many voters away. As long as he keeps the debate about his cult of personality, he will attract the mindless mob. You bring up a very good point though. There are many conspiracy theories out there that many people have not heard or have not given any credence to. But, you're going to tell me that a close spiritual advisor of a candidate for president, one who attended this church for 20 years, has no belief in any of this at all. Even though, he credits this same person as being a huge influence on his life. But, that's ok because these are mainstream beliefs? Sorry, I can't buy that. |
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03-18-2008, 10:21 AM | #1498 |
Dark Cloud
Join Date: Apr 2001
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03-18-2008, 10:24 AM | #1499 |
Dark Cloud
Join Date: Apr 2001
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The conservative slant of people who clearly don't understand the debate of what's going on with a good half of the population in this country make this thread really hard to read. And this coming from someone who sits right of center and won't vote for the Democratic nominee either. But the line between punditry and just saying "OMG, I don't get it. No one wants to vote for a fringe liberal" completely defies the reality of NOW.
You can cite 1988, you can cite 1888 or whatever you want. No one has any clue what's going to happen in November, but the fact of the matter is...this year is different because the challenge we face going forward are different. Maybe the past is instructive, but it's not a real crystal ball for what's to come. Something will change, things will be different and stuff will go in a different direction. The generation of twittering, emailing and bluetooth induced Americans don't care about who is a liberal and who is a conservative only care about sound bites and are looking for someone they feel they can trust. Whoever the people feel they can trust, they will vote for. Most of us are far more informed than Joe Average Voter. We don't represent the folks being polled or asked what they think on any of the sides of this debate. Last edited by Young Drachma : 03-18-2008 at 10:45 AM. |
03-18-2008, 10:26 AM | #1500 |
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Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Winnipeg, MB
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I only heard portions (stupid CBC kept cutting away), but Obama's speech was one of the best I've ever heard.
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