Chaos in Baltimore

[Grover]

Undue force - Sun Investigates - The Baltimore Sun

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Lathum

An this goes back to my point about how they only hurt the cause by detracting from the peacful protests. Maybe if they don't loot or riot the peacful protest becomes the story? Maybe not.

I actually doubt it. I didn't hear all that much about what was going on in Baltimore until the riots - even though yesterday apparently there were these massive peaceful protests prior to the rioting.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Lathum

An this goes back to my point about how they only hurt the cause by detracting from the peacful protests. Maybe if they don't loot or riot the peacful protest becomes the story? Maybe not.

If we use FOFC as a microcosm for the country, it would seem the only way to have the cause heard is to loot and riot.

The arrest happened on April 12th- No thread

He died on the 19th and right around that time officers involved were suspended- No thread

Peaceful protest have gone on for over a week now- No thread

Riots happened- Thread started

Please do not take this as me advocating or giving approval for the riots. I am not. What I take issue with is the idea that at some point, the collective we would give a damn about that community's grievances outside of this riot. The recent evidence says otherwise.

[RainMaker]

Riots happening is a rare occurrence. Career criminals dying is not.

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

When the "social change" that's desperately needed is an end to the bullshit victim culture & a firm declaration that acting like f'n animals isn't acceptable behavior ... well, that's not a message that's going to fly past the lunatic fringe on the left so what difference would it make?

You are correct that the left claims the moral high ground and that has perpetuated the problem. However, your inability to recognize that the right benefits just as much politically and economically from the situation is, at best, lazy.

[Logan]

So is the implication that those rioting were patiently watching CNN every night, waiting for coverage of their issues and the peaceful protests that arose in response, and when it didn't come, they then took to the streets to loot and burn shit?

[Raven]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Obviously the media doesn't particularly care to cover the peaceful protests. Or will cover it for an hour or so and then lose interest. I mean there were tons of peaceful protesters in Baltimore yesterday. Far, far more than the rioters. I used to completely abhor rioters, but then I understood why the violence comes, and then I understood that the violence actually keeps things in the media narrative, so maybe out of the bad comes something worthwhile. Maybe one time it becomes our society's Boston Tea Party. I can hope, at least.

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I actually doubt it. I didn't hear all that much about what was going on in Baltimore until the riots - even though yesterday apparently there were these massive peaceful protests prior to the rioting.

Stop. Seriously.
You seem to have strong opinions about this situation, and are more than willing to (repeatedly) share them, yet you have no clue what is going in.

If you didn't know about the protests, it's because you weren't watching the news. AND the peaceful protests happened 3 days ago, not yesterday. The peaceful protests Saturday turned into violent and destructive acts. The riots started yesterday.

Just take a step back and admit you're full of shit. You're talking to hear yourself talk.

[EagleFan]

Insane.

Heard about it. Felt bad for those involved. Waiting to hear more before passing judgment.

Riots happen. No change to opinion on the original situation but now want to see every criminal from yesterday's riot hung. They were criminals, not protestors.

[ISiddiqui]

You live in Baltimore according to your location - of course it was all over the news there. I didn't hear about the peaceful protests in Atlanta. Most of us didn't. We heard people were mad about the Gray death and that's likely it. See, I didn't even know the protests were 3 days ago and I'm on Facebook every single day. That's exactly what I'm talking about.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Raven

Stop. Seriously.
You seem to have strong opinions about this situation, and are more than willing to (repeatedly) share them, yet you have no clue what is going in.

If you didn't know about the protests, it's because you weren't watching the news. AND the peaceful protests happened 3 days ago, not yesterday. The peaceful protests Saturday turned into violent and destructive acts. The riots started yesterday.

Just take a step back and admit you're full of shit. You're talking to hear yourself talk.

Welcome to the Michael Brown thread where everyone was an expert on St. Louis and St. Louis politics. Bleeding hearts talking about this wonderful quaint peaceful town of Ferguson and the iron fists like Jon who wanted to fire bomb the place. It's frustrating but I guess we are all guilty of it a little bit when we comment on anything happening somewhere else.

[ISiddiqui]

To further point out that the protests were not on the mainstream media, here is an article talking about Jon Stewart skewering CNN for not covering them:

Jon Stewart hits CNN for covering White House Correspondents’ Dinner and not Baltimore protests - The Washington Post

[panerd]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

You live in Baltimore according to your location - of course it was all over the news there. I didn't hear about the peaceful protests in Atlanta. Most of us didn't. We heard people were mad about the Gray death and that's likely it. See, I didn't even know the protests were 3 days ago and I'm on Facebook every single day. That's exactly what I'm talking about.

I think you are sincere but what you are ranting about is human nature. I consider FOFC a deeper and more introspective group of people and yet these threads all have similar number of posts...

Hello Mr...er Mrs. Jenner? - Front Office Football Central

WikiLeaks - Front Office Football Central

BREAKING NEWS!!! (Brittany Spears!) - Front Office Football Central

Ukraine? - Front Office Football Central (7 posts here by the way)

Can a FEMALE child molester ever be called "hot"? - Front Office Football Central

And the last one has 100's of times the number of posts. The news is just giving the general public what they want. They want fires, death, destruction, boobies... they don't care about issues.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by panerd

The news is just giving the general public what they want. They want fires, death, destruction... they don't care about issues.

Unfortunately you are correct. But it kind of makes the point that riots may actually bring more light to the subject than any protest for how many ever days.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Unfortunately you are correct. But it kind of makes the point that riots may actually bring more light to the subject than any protest for how many ever days.

I agree but I think that gives way too much credit to the rioters who have been pretty accurately described here by many as opportunistic criminals. You and a couple other people's message is being lost here as you are coming across as very sympathetic to the rioters and if that isn't your purpose than you should clarify.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by panerd

I agree but I think that gives way too much credit to the rioters who have been pretty accurately described here by many as opportunistic criminals. You and a couple other people's message is being lost here as you are coming across as very sympathetic to the rioters and if that isn't your purpose than you should clarify.

A lot of them are using the opportunity for criminal behavior, but the violence is a result of continued built up angry at humiliation and oppression that has occurred on the streets of Baltimore. If I am coming across as sympathetic to the rioters, it is likely because in some respects I AM. I can completely understand where they are coming from. As King said "riots are the language of the unheard".

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Unfortunately you are correct. But it kind of makes the point that riots may actually bring more light to the subject than any protest for how many ever days.

It brings more light, negative light.

How can you not see that thousands, if not millions, turned on their TVs last night and many though to themselves " more young black men destroying the community they live in and peoples property and livelihood in the process, guess they all do deserve to be in prison, maybe they deserve the treatment they get from the police."

I know you are stong in your faith, are benevolent, and by and large see the good in people, it resonantes through your facebook posts, but I think you have some serious blinders on here.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

A lot of them are using the opportunity for criminal behavior, but the violence is a result of continued built up angry at humiliation and oppression that has occurred on the streets of Baltimore. If I am coming across as sympathetic to the rioters, it is likely because in some respects I AM. I can completely understand where they are coming from. As King said "riots are the language of the unheard".

I think the Aurora, Newtown, and VTech shootings bring light to mental illness and gun issues but am hardly sympathetic to the criminals.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Lathum

It brings more light, negative light.

How can you not see that thousands, if not millions, turned on their TVs last night and many though to themselves " more young black men destroying the community they live in and peoples property and livelihood in the process, guess they all do deserve to be in prison, maybe they deserve the treatment they get from the police."

I know you are stong in your faith, are benevolent, and by and large see the good in people, it resonantes through your facebook posts, but I think you have some serious blinders on here.

And how many people are looking at it and saying Holy Crap, what is going on in Baltimore, and realizing that the police department is ridiculously dirty. I was talking to someone today and pointed out that they had to pay close to $6mil in the last five years due to excessive force and that person realized just how fucked up the system is in Baltimore.

I'd rather have people turned off if some people realize that the system is broken, rather than having people not even knowing what is going on.

I think that the aftermath of the Ferguson riots started a conversation that wouldn't be taking place without them. More people are thinking about how racist police departments are causing social problems today. I think it's helped, regardless of the people it's turned off - 2 steps forward, 1 step back is still moving forward.

[ISiddiqui]

For example, it was 10:44 PM last night, after the riots started that the likely Democratic candidate for President tweeted:

Hillary Clinton on Twitter: "Tonight I am praying for peace & safety for all in Baltimore, & for Freddie Gray's family - his death is a tragedy that demands answers. -H"

The violence forced Clinton to address the issue, when she had not (at least through Twitter) done so before. "demands answers" - maybe it'll cause folks to think.

[Raven]

You're basically saying "good for them, they did the only thing they could - Riot!"

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Raven

You're basically saying "good for them, they did the only thing they could - Riot!"

In essence, yes - though likely it wasn't a conscious effort to call attention to the problems by violence (they were the Black Panthers or Malcolm X or anything). It's unfortunate, but our news media simply doesn't care about issues unless there is blood and guts and violence. And it isn't new. If you saw "Selma", one of the things pointed out is that MLK wanted the police to use violence against them - so that it would be news and people would be shocked. Of course in that case, it was to incite violence against them rather than engage in violence, but still, that's what the media covers.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

In essence, yes

that comes off as racist though: as if you think that is the only response they can muster. expect more.

[ISiddiqui]

Obviously they did muster other responses earlier. No one paid attention. In order to get people to pay attention, as the movie title says "There Must Be Blood".

[stevew]

The orioles game tomorrow is at 2 and is "closed to the public"

[APC]

A couple years ago people looted stores and rioted in my city after a major tornado swept through town.

Check that, they weren't rioting and looting. They were drawing attention to decades of oppression from Mother Nature and the weather gods. The actions brought light to the subject of Mother Nature's oppressive ways. The media had no choice but to talk about this important issue instead of just doing the same silly weather forecast at 10:15 p.m. every night.

[Grover]

Time to push the political agenda...
The NRA Is Already Lying About What's Happening in Baltimore

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

To further point out that the protests were not on the mainstream media, here is an article talking about Jon Stewart skewering CNN for not covering them:

Jon Stewart hits CNN for covering White House Correspondents’ Dinner and not Baltimore protests - The Washington Post

Ah yes, SUCH a credible critic.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

In essence, yes - though likely it wasn't a conscious effort to call attention to the problems by violence (they were the Black Panthers or Malcolm X or anything). It's unfortunate, but our news media simply doesn't care about issues unless there is blood and guts and violence. And it isn't new. If you saw "Selma", one of the things pointed out is that MLK wanted the police to use violence against them - so that it would be news and people would be shocked. Of course in that case, it was to incite violence against them rather than engage in violence, but still, that's what the media covers.

Not sure that "it's time to put the animals down once & for all -- regardless of race, creed or color -- stop mollycoddling the most worthless elements of society simply because it isn't politically correct to call them out for their actions" is really the sort of "attention" that's going to work out for them but {shrug}

[Raven]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Obviously they did muster other responses earlier. No one paid attention. In order to get people to pay attention, as the movie title says "There Must Be Blood".

If there was 3 hour coverage of peaceful protests in Baltimore on Saturday, how much would you have watched? Would you have been glued to the tv or would you have been outside enjoying a nice Spring day with friends and family?

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I think that the aftermath of the Ferguson riots started a conversation that wouldn't be taking place without them. More people are thinking about how racist police departments are causing social problems today. I think it's helped, regardless of the people it's turned off - 2 steps forward, 1 step back is still moving forward.

I am not as certain as you that the distance travelled forward and travelled backward are those particular distances.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Ah yes, SUCH a credible critic.

What does it matter where the criticism comes from if it's valid?

[Logan]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

And how many people are looking at it and saying Holy Crap, what is going on in Baltimore, and realizing that the police department is ridiculously dirty. I was talking to someone today and pointed out that they had to pay close to $6mil in the last five years due to excessive force and that person realized just how fucked up the system is in Baltimore.

This is probably just a by product of where I live and I'm just being ignorant but I'll honestly ask, am I the only one who thinks this is actually a pretty low dollar figure?

[ISiddiqui]

One of the peaceful protesters told NPR the following:

"I see no shame in being violent to be heard," she said. "Because if you can't do it peacefully then what other option do you have?"

On The Streets Of Baltimore, Trying To Understand The Anger : The Two-Way : NPR

And that's basically the unfortunate choice that's been given.

Violence is ok for acceptable revolutions and even spoken highly about, as I've referenced with the Boston Tea Party (which yes, may not be the spark of the American Revolution, but it has been highly mythologized, no?). Though I guess we shouldn't worry too much as if this movement goes anywhere, the violence in it will be whitewashed as Mandela's violent past was...

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Logan

This is probably just a by product of where I live and I'm just being ignorant but I'll honestly ask, am I the only one who thinks this is actually a pretty low dollar figure?

It does come from 100 different victims though.

[Chief Rum]

I don't want to sway this conversation from where it is to a larger context, so feel free to ignore this message if you feel it would do so, Imran. But my primary issue with your stance is one I see a lot from more liberal standpoints--that willpower is an illusion, everyone is purely a product of their environments, that they don't have any control over their circumstances (usually because of oppression) and as a result they should not bear the responsibility for their actions or their lives.

I am a big believer in self-determination. We all have obstacles in our lives. It's up to our selves and only ourselves to overcome them and make our lives what we want them to be.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I don't want to sway this conversation from where it is to a larger context, so feel free to ignore this message if you feel it would do so, Imran. But my primary issue with your stance is one I see a lot from more liberal standpoints--that willpower is an illusion, everyone is purely a product of their environments, that they don't have any control over their circumstances (usually because of oppression) and as a result they should not bear the responsibility for their actions or their lives.

I am a big believer in self-determination. We all have obstacles in our lives. It's up to our selves and only ourselves to overcome them and make our lives what we want them to be.

Those who do wrong should be held accountable for their actions. Though I think many of us have differing views on "wrong". I've dealt with CVS before and would probably burn one to the ground given the opportunity.

Self-determination is huge, but I think there has to be some hope there for it to be brought to fruition. Being in a community where you're harassed and watching others being harassed constantly has to kill that drive is quite a few people.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

Those who do wrong should be held accountable for their actions. Though I think many of us have differing views on "wrong". I've dealt with CVS before and would probably burn one to the ground given the opportunity.

Self-determination is huge, but I think there has to be some hope there for it to be brought to fruition. Being in a community where you're harassed and watching others being harassed constantly has to kill that drive is quite a few people.

But those people allow that harassment to kill the drive. You control how you feel, and if someone else induces feelings in you, it is because you allow them to do so. More people need to take power over their own lives and stop blaming others for their circumstances.

I'm not saying the harassment doesn't exist or that the circumstances are fair or anything like that. But in the end, our actions and how we feel inside isn't about those external forces, but about how we choose to react to them.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I don't want to sway this conversation from where it is to a larger context, so feel free to ignore this message if you feel it would do so, Imran. But my primary issue with your stance is one I see a lot from more liberal standpoints--that willpower is an illusion, everyone is purely a product of their environments, that they don't have any control over their circumstances (usually because of oppression) and as a result they should not bear the responsibility for their actions or their lives.

I am a big believer in self-determination. We all have obstacles in our lives. It's up to our selves and only ourselves to overcome them and make our lives what we want them to be.

I have come to the conclusion that self-determination is overblown and to many, doesn't exist. Our environments and societies have vast power over our choices and over the way we even see the world. I have seen this in an extreme example in working with the Georgia Innocence Project - people who are freed from jail after spending 15-20 years behind bars for crimes they did not commit can't just be thrown into the real world. They literally can't function probably. Their environment shaped them in such a crazy way that that's what they default to in their new environment. They basically have to be deprogrammed. Now that's obviously an extreme, but our environment shapes us so much that it is almost difficult to see. I used to be a bigger believer in self-determination, but I now look at most of it as a crock.

I strongly believe that we all have SOME self-determination, but that is usually limited by the bounds placed upon us by our environmental factors. Sometimes people can break those bounds. Mostly they can't.

I also tend to rail against hyper-individualism (yes, you didn't build that and yes, it does take a village) and I feel a lot of times self-determination can fall into that.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I'm not saying the harassment doesn't exist or that the circumstances are fair or anything like that. But in the end, our actions and how we feel inside isn't about those external forces, but about how we choose to react to them.

I never grew up in that environment, so I can't say how easy it would be to shake off those types of experiences.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

But those people allow that harassment to kill the drive. You control how you feel, and if someone else induces feelings in you, it is because you allow them to do so. More people need to take power over their own lives and stop blaming others for their circumstances.

Ironically, though, those that take up violence are indeed resisting how others are trying to make them feel . Which, mind, is also the basis for every revolution.

[Marmel]

I find the rioters and the BPD all guilty. It will be a vicious cycle until some real leadship steps up and forces change in that city (and many cities around the country).

[nol]

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

that comes off as racist though: as if you think that is the only response they can muster. expect more.

No, what "comes off as racist" is that the expectations only apply to one side. The rioters (to say nothing of the much larger group demonstrating peacefully) didn't kill anyone, but any talk of holding police officers accountable for crimes is drowned out by those who want to up the punishment for looting to execution on the streets.

[ISiddiqui]

Interestingly, I was just reminded that on this day that arguments are being heard by the Supreme Court for homosexual marriage that one of the most important moments in the history of the LGBT movement was a riot - the Stonewall Riots of June 28, 1969 (June 28, btw, is the day that to this day most cities have their Gay Pride Parades).

[Raven]

Originally Posted by nol

No, what "comes off as racist" is that the expectations only apply to one side. The rioters (to say nothing of the much larger group demonstrating peacefully) didn't kill anyone, but any talk of holding police officers accountable for crimes is drowned out by those who want to up the punishment for looting to execution on the streets.

Haven't seen anyone say officers shouldn't be held accountable. In fact, I think that's far from what anyone is thinking.

And yes, I think you're right, no one was killed by the rioters (afaik), so no harm no foul?

[Raven]

And watching live coverage, there was a group of 70-100 or so people walking down the streets. One kicks over a trashcan, and another picks it back up and puts it back in place. Which message is louder of the two?

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I have come to the conclusion that self-determination is overblown and to many, doesn't exist. Our environments and societies have vast power over our choices and over the way we even see the world. I have seen this in an extreme example in working with the Georgia Innocence Project - people who are freed from jail after spending 15-20 years behind bars for crimes they did not commit can't just be thrown into the real world. They literally can't function probably. Their environment shaped them in such a crazy way that that's what they default to in their new environment. They basically have to be deprogrammed. Now that's obviously an extreme, but our environment shapes us so much that it is almost difficult to see. I used to be a bigger believer in self-determination, but I now look at most of it as a crock.

I strongly believe that we all have SOME self-determination, but that is usually limited by the bounds placed upon us by our environmental factors. Sometimes people can break those bounds. Mostly they can't.

I also tend to rail against hyper-individualism (yes, you didn't build that and yes, it does take a village) and I feel a lot of times self-determination can fall into that.

I completely agree that our environment is a powerful force which narrows us into the lives that perpetuate its own existence. It is a constant pressure, much like gravity, that we must deal with.

But also much like with gravity, we all get up and move around, even while its influence is everywhere.

Whereas you don't believe that people can overcome this (or at any rate, very very few can), I believe the opposite. All can, so long as you're alive to make the effort. The ones who don't didn't put in enough effort or didn't put in the right effort. And even worse, many of them just use the obstacles in front of them to keep them where they are; they give up, say "what can I do?"

That's a weakness in their own mind, not in the environment in which they grew up or live.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I completely agree that our environment is a powerful force which narrows us into the lives that perpetuate its own existence. It is a constant pressure, much like gravity, that we must deal with.

But also much like with gravity, we all get up and move around, even while its influence is everywhere.

Whereas you don't believe that people can overcome this (or at any rate, very very few can), I believe the opposite. All can, so long as you're alive to make the effort. The ones who don't didn't put in enough effort or didn't put in the right effort. And even worse, many of them just use the obstacles in front of them to keep them where they are; they give up, say "what can I do?"

That's a weakness in their own mind, not in the environment in which they grew up or live.

To be honest, I think that's a bunch of Pollyanna hooey.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

I never grew up in that environment, so I can't say how easy it would be to shake off those types of experiences.

You never grew up in your brother's or sister's environment (assuming you have a sibling) despite having the same parents and living in the same house.

That probably sounds odd, but what I am saying is that everyone's "environment" is entirely personal to them. Those personal environments may share circumstances (such as your parents, your childhood home, your school, your hometown, etc.), but each is as individual to us as a fingerprint.

My point is that overcoming environment and circumstance is an absolute, not a relative truth. You don't need to have grown up in a bad part of Baltimore to understand the struggle of overcoming external factors you have no control over. The specific struggles are different, but the fact of needing to overcome them is the same for all of us.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

To be honest, I think that's a bunch of Pollyanna hooey.

So I am the optimist? Well, I am fine with that, I suppose. I would rather live life believing that I can than accepting that I can't.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Ironically, though, those that take up violence are indeed resisting how others are trying to make them feel . Which, mind, is also the basis for every revolution.

But does that better their circumstances? I don't think it has, does or will. I think it turns more against them than for them. It makes their circumstances harder, not easier. And for what? The momentary high of throwing it in the face of "whitey" by breaking their black neighbor's shop window and taking a six pack?