Mad Men Season 4 Discussion

[thesloppy]

Duck has skillz. Took Don's back, threw on some kinda anaconda choke, tossed him to the ground with an inside leg trip, right into the full mount, ready for palm strikes to the bridge of the nose.

THIS FIGHT IS OVER! DUCK PHILLIPS CAN BANG! DUCK PHILLIPS IS NO JOKE!

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Radii

I think this is mostly transparent, though perhaps I am making some leaps. Peggy is a 21st century gal. She wants to work, she loves her career, but she feels severely pressured by what society says she's supposed to do. She's not supposed to put work before family, she's supposed to get married and have kids, and if she doesn't people think she's broken. She's just conflicted enough by it to go through the motions but in the end career is always going to win.

I got that. And I think Peggy will fit an Anna role with Don, but the boyfriend (as unsatisfactory as he was) was correct that she'll never stand up Don. Yes, career is always going to win over anything personal, but I'm not sure that's a good thing. We don't celebrate people who put their jobs over everything else... or at least we shouldn't.

[samifan24]

What a great episode last night.

[DataKing]

Don't have much time to type right now, but I just had to pop on and say that Sunday night's episode was the best in the entire series (thus far). Absolutely epic. The argument between Don and Peggy was perfectly done. Absolute f'ing perfection.

[AENeuman]

SF Gate TV guy does a fun deconstruction of each episode. Here is the link for the latest. Amazing the buzz this episode is getting

"Mad Men" Spoiled Bastard. Ep. 7: "The Suitcase." : Tim Goodman. The Bastard Machine

[OldGiants]

Only got around to watching this last night. A great episode, indeed, but no love for Ida Blankenship, the office 1930's hotty, according to Roger's tape?

"If I wanted to watch two Negroes fight, I'd throw a dollar out of my window."

Anna carrying the suitcase on her way to 'a better place' (Don's words) tied in nicely with the Samsonite ads.

Most of you probably do not remember that American Tourister used the gorilla tossing around the suitcase idea in 1970.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2ZeIoLz8FE

[OldGiants]

One last thing, the parallel between the Liston-Clay fight and the Don-Duck fight was clever. Both were extremely brief, and the winner was not expected. Nearly every sports writer picked Liston to win easily, and you would have thought the much younger Don would demolish Duck, too. Don saying 'Uncle' reminded me of the 'No Mas' response from Roberto Duran.

[OldGiants]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

I KILLED 17 MEN IN OKINAWA.

Liston Vs. Clay: The braggart won.
Don vs. Duck: The braggart won.

The more I think about this episode, the greater it gets.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by OldGiants

One last thing, the parallel between the Liston-Clay fight and the Don-Duck fight was clever. Both were extremely brief, and the winner was not expected. Nearly every sports writer picked Liston to win easily, and you would have thought the much younger Don would demolish Duck, too. Don saying 'Uncle' reminded me of the 'No Mas' response from Roberto Duran.

I hadn't caught that at all, awesome

[Radii]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Yes, career is always going to win over anything personal, but I'm not sure that's a good thing. We don't celebrate people who put their jobs over everything else... or at least we shouldn't.

Never saw this reply, you're right there of course, and just because i love peggy and her hopefully now ex-boyfriend is a bit of a turd doesn't mean it wasn't a really shitty thing to do.

I guess I like seeing Peggy want her career and go for it and shoo away the societal pressure to have a family to the point that I'm more willing to overlook some pretty bad flaws she has a lot more than I am with the other characters who I don't like as much

[ISiddiqui]

And that is perfectly understandable .

I do like that Mad Men doesn't try to make a character completely "likable", and when Don was become too idolized, the Mad Men crew decided to take him down (because as like in The Sopranos, the main character isn't supposed to be a good person).

[Pyser]

did anyone else think that was a really bad episode?

slow motion close ups of alcohol, the lame zooming in while dollying out, the even lamer shot of don "drowning", coupled with never ending diary writing?

an aesop fable, betty's last line of "we have everything" or whatever crap it was

first time maybe ever i was glad an episode of mad men was finally over

[DataKing]

Last night's episode was definitely a downer after the brilliant one the week before. But I did actually enjoy Don's journal voice-over, not for the mechanism itself but for some of the things he said. And the little "conversation" between Joan and Peggy in the elevator was pretty good.

[samifan24]

I didn't think it was a very strong episode and I didn't care for Don's voiceover. We've rarely heard voiceovers to convey thoughts before so I don't see the need to start doing so now.

The highlight of the episode for me was the elevator conversation between Peggy and Joan. Peggy (and the audience) thought she did something good but Joan ripped her down, as if reminding her that she chose to be a career woman over having a family.

[ISiddiqui]

It was a slower episode (how could it not be), but I thought it was actually pretty good. Then again, I love introspective episodes. Don getting his life back together and taking control over some things was actually well done. Especially with him refusing to go up with the psych woman (forget her name) and then taking her advice and going to see his son on his birthday.

The Joan & Peggy conversation in the elevator was good, but I think Joan was 100% wrong. Joan didn't handle it. She just told them that they'd be shot at in Vietnam and nothing would change. Peggy actually did something about it. Peggy was pissed at the lack of respect a woman was getting in the office and had enough. Joan was pissed that Peggy actually had some power to do something.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I happened to wander through just in time for the Blankenship scene. That's so true to life that it was hysterical to me & my wife. The one-liner from the silver haired dude, about "... surrounded by the people she answered phones for" was also a spot-on summary of the business.

That was the show that I would have watched religiously, similar to moments from the first couple of episodes of Season 1.

[samifan24]

A pretty good episode overall tonight, I thought. Matthew Weiner still manages to drop my jaw several times a season and tonight was one of those times. I really like how Sally is becoming the key focal point in the Don/Betty saga. It seems that long ago Sally chose Don over Betty but now I wonder just how far Weiner will take it to show how awful Betty is.

[Suicane75]

Sally morphing into Betty and her affection for Don was really creeping me out. And that's a task.

[samifan24]

Wow tonight's episode has been great and it's not even half over yet.

[Tigercat]

This episode is crazy. Don on the verge of being exposed, lucky strike leaving the agency, and Lane being slapped on the side of the head with a cane by his father.

[hoopsguy]

I thought there might be some posts in this thread before the episode was over - some pretty major stuff going on this evening.

[Scoobz0202]

Holy. Shit.

[thesloppy]

So, I've been discussing Mad Men at a few places, and this last episode, and the last shot in particular seem to have generated a divide among folks, as for what it means regarding Don's future.

I was surprised to see a number of people simply take Don's final gaze at Megan as some sort of wistful/casual/benign thing, another step on his path of enlightenment towards Don the Good Guy. On the other hand, it seemed pretty obvious to me that Don had come to question his entire being (or rather the life/being he had taken from the real Don Draper) and as everything was prepared to come crashing down, instead appeared to rebuild itself as a newer-better-stronger house of cards, his response was not to finally confront or abandon his assumed identity, but throwing himself back into it, once his bulletproof status had been re-affirmed. Likewise, to take Don's gaze on face value ignore that the entire episode had been spent showing how everything is SUPER on the surface at SCDP, but a shitstorm is definitely on the horizon.

Likewise, his postponement of a date with Faye right before the gaze seems an important image to me....if it meant nothing, there was no reason for it to even be mentioned, but for him to (somewhat coldly) dismiss Faye, so soon after both telling her his great secret and having the secret of their illicit relationship revealed (and Pete not particularly caring), says to me that her value may now be null (or at least lessened) to the new-old Don Draper. I think Don's gaze at Megan was definitely meant to hold some lust, towards something young, shiny and as-of-yet untouched by the creeping tendrils of his crappy life.

[samifan24]

I enjoyed tonight's episode and think it really set things up for an action filled final two episodes.

Spoiler

We were right about Don and Megan. When Don saw Faye at his door I thought she was breaking up with him. I also thought Roger might kill himself during the scene at his home. Also, I thought Pete was told to dump his father-in-law's account. That was weeks ago (probably months in show time). How has the father-in-law not found out that SCDP dumped him?

[Scoobz0202]

I got the Roger foreboding feeling as well.

[ISiddiqui]

Not sure we need a spoiler

However, Pete played hardball. Said bring in the entirety of Vicks or they'll have to dump Ponds. The father-in-law had to give all of Vicks to SDCP and the agency dumped Clearasil.

And yes, there is a super interesting couple of eps left in the season.

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Not sure we need a spoiler

I posted the spoiler before the west coast airing.

[AENeuman]

I always thought the "jumper" in the opening credits would be a real person. Seems like it could be Roger... what a way to end the season if so

[samifan24]

I thought tonight's episode was a bit slow but did a good job setting things in motion for next week's season finale.

[Scoobz0202]

Agreed. I'm sure the finale will be great as always

- The response to the letter was great. I'm hoping Don comes out shining. I love when Don kicks serious ass at his job.

- Sometimes I just want to fucking punch betty in the face.

- Loved Don covering Pete's share. Pete may be a shitbag 90% of the time but Don owed him.

[ISiddiqui]

I liked that Peggy was really the only one who got what Don was doing with that letter in the Times.

[Scoobz0202]

The little girl who plays Sally has truly been a joy to watch. Feels like as the season goes on she just gets better and better.

[DataKing]

Originally Posted by Scoobz0202

The little girl who plays Sally has truly been a joy to watch. Feels like as the season goes on she just gets better and better.

Agreed...but her little boyfriend still creeps me out.

[jeff061]

Really liked this episode.

Hoping Sally doesn't up and kill herself. Seems to be a bit young to pull that off. But them really humanizing her this season, her talk of death, the internalized anger and the emotional "final" goodbye to Don(has she seen him since?) seems to make it a possibility.

Something series defining is going to happen with her next episode.

Then again I am a dark souled individual.

[kcchief19]

You're not alone. I have a horrible sense of dread involving Sally. There's been a foreshadowing of something bad happening with Glen, and it may becoming to a head now that Betty wants to move to keep Sally and Glen apart. Don's a terrible father but Sally is her father's daughter -- something happening to Sally would hit him hard.

You know there's always a mindfreak in the Mad Men series finale ... we've already had SCDP go through the layoffs (is Bert Cooper really gone or did we see him back in the office at the end?).

As for Betty, I never cared for her even when we were supposed to. She's always seemed cold and ineffectual -- then again, maybe that's because January Jones is just an overrated actress.

[Logan]

I hope Glen kills Betty.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by jeff061

and the emotional "final" goodbye to Don(has she seen him since?) seems to make it a possibility.

Wasn't the Beatles concert after this? It wasn't onscreen, but I thought that was the episode following Sally running away from Mom.

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Wasn't the Beatles concert after this? It wasn't onscreen, but I thought that was the episode following Sally running away from Mom.

Oh yeah, think you're right.

In any case, this finale was more akin to silly anticlimactic mid-season filler. Just strange.

[Scoobz0202]

Agree 100%. Really the first time Mad Men has truly let me down. That was terrible. The only highlight for me was the final scene with Betty. That was one of the more brilliant scenes I've seen from this show. From the comedic moment of Don pulling out the hidden bottle, to Don's, "You'll just move again," and finally to them walking their separate ways.

But that alone wasn't enough to carry what was a mediocre episode. Let alone a season finale.

[jeff061]

And I can see plenty of uninteresting scenes with them as newly weds. Then the 6 episodes dedicated to Don and Betty cheating on each other's spouses with each other. Just don't get the direction.

[samifan24]

I don't know. I didn't have a problem with the episode. We got one big thing (Don) and two smaller things (Peggy and Joan). We didn't see anyone die and we didn't see the company collapse like we thought we would. I was still surprised that Don's decision happened so quickly but now I like how he confided in Faye and now Faye's upset, knows Don's secret and has mafia friends she can use to get back at him. It might not have been the greatest season finale but I still enjoyed it.

[jeff061]

Well, I didn't really need anyone to die.

But the 2 smaller things aren't worth mentioning and the "big" thing is an uninteresting cliche. Unless they totally twist things around next year, but my attention is not exactly hooked.

[ISiddiqui]

I thought it was brilliant actually. Don's slow change into Roger just keeps accelerating. Don thought it was ridiculous for Rodger to up and marry a secretary and here goes Don doing the same thing. And Peggy and Joan going WTF?!

[Landshark44]

I liked when Roger said "Who's She?", when told Don and Megan were getting married...

[OldGiants]

At first I was annoyed with Don's marital choice, but my wife pointed out Roger had done the same thing, and I laughed at that. Don thinks he wants a quiet typical home life, but what he really wants is a hot trophy wife. Otherwise, why did he dump the marketing pro?

Peggy was pissed at Don for dumping the marketing woman -- who she thinks of as a mentor, but who is not -- and now she will find Joan to be the mentor she needs. Joan is slowly sliding into becoming the new Ida Blankenship, about to become the subject of jokes by unbelieving new hires. That has begun to happen already, if you've noticed.

With the mention of Abe Beame in this episode, I began to think of other NY politicos of that era, in particular Nelson Rockefeller, who is Henry's ultimate boss. Since Rockefeller died in 1979, more than ten years down the road from where Mad Men is now, I don't think it will be Rocky who dies in the saddle in Mad Men. My prediction is that Henry will have a heart attack and die while boinking Betty next season. And likely Glen and Sally will hear it going on.

I also speculate that Joan's husband will be 'wounded in the war' and come home to realize that the baby looks like Roger and there is nothing he can do about it. The 'less than a man' thing will lead him to melancholia and conflict with Joan. Thus Joan her husband will both become the subject of pity and bad jokes.

[hoopsguy]

I guess I was hoping for more plotline about the business in the finale, given the state of the stories over the past year. I certainly expected something more dramatic.

I also think Don gravitated towards the secretary because she had demonstrated some good mothering skills with his kids, before this episode and again in California. Sure, the hot trophy wife thing was important and all, but I doubt that this was the only driver for him. I don't think hotness would have been enough to trump the advertising woman that he was with, as he seemed pretty satisfied with that relationship.

No surprise at all with Joan carrying the kid. Fun to think that "they are even bigger".

[cthomer5000]

Having just caught up on the season, I thought it was a terrible finale. Awful writing - unless they are literally trying to portray Draper as either completely insane or possibly possessing multiple personalities.

I was waiting for the whole engagement thing to be a dream sequence...even after 5 minutes or more. Stunned that it wasn't.

Truly bizzare choices.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

As for Betty, I never cared for her even when we were supposed to. She's always seemed cold and ineffectual -- then again, maybe that's because January Jones is just an overrated actress.

Yeah, the character is just proving to be an unlikeable bitch. She had her moments early in the show, but they are long gone now.

[Scoobz0202]

I've been reading that we won't be getting our summer fix (season 5). I've been reading it could even be 2012 before we get our season due to money disputes

[jeff061]

Thankfully the last episode was horrible enough to cushion the wait time.