2009-10 College Football Coaching Hiring/Firing Thread

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

A lot of people were shocked he didn't get the MSU job. That is why a lot of this came out. It was rumbled around the time, but yeah. He was never a candidate for the Michigan job, but you could base that on his merit to that point.

MSU though would have been a perfect fit which is why it's so odd.

The one argument against him being a "perfect fit" at MSU is that with his ego he'd be gone in 2-3 years while Dantonio seems much more content to stay at MSU for a while. I disagree with the rationale against stepping stone coaches (it's not an issue for ND, but for UMass there's been a lot of debate) - in my mind if a coach comes in and has success only to move higher, it makes your program look better for the next hire and gives you the 2-3 years of success - but I can see why many people find it distasteful and want a coach who wants to be there "for the school" rather than as a step on his career advancement.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

The one argument against him being a "perfect fit" at MSU is that with his ego he'd be gone in 2-3 years while Dantonio seems much more content to stay at MSU for a while. I disagree with the rationale against stepping stone coaches (it's not an issue for ND, but for UMass there's been a lot of debate) - in my mind if a coach comes in and has success only to move higher, it makes your program look better for the next hire and gives you the 2-3 years of success - but I can see why many people find it distasteful and want a coach who wants to be there "for the school" rather than as a step on his career advancement.

Which is also true. It's hard to really say with him. My friend while at CMU worked in the Athletic Center and said Kelly was the biggest prick ever, but obviously that is nothing new. Doesn't matter when you win though.

I think X's and O's why he's perfect for ND, but I am not sure how he'll handle the media if he gets the job. I do think there won't be a middle ground though. He'll either win big or flame out in a blaze of glory.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Is he "proven"? No, I guess not. But it's hard to ignore the positive trajectory he has Stanford on, and given the context - the Pac-10 is an absolute meat-grinder this year with 6 good programs and 3 more competitive ones, his 8-4 record is all the more impressive. The Pac-10 wasn't as good most years when Ty was at Stanford, and while he took Walsh's players and had an immediate 4 game improvement, he declined in years 3 and 4 before bouncing between good years and a mediocre year before leaving for Notre Dame.

I can understand the hesitancy given the past history of TyWilly, but I think Harbaugh is genuine. Obviously some of the credit for his success goes to the talents of Toby Gerhart, but by the same token, give credit to Harbaugh for fully exploiting Gerhart's talent.

Obviously we'll know better in 2-3 more years whether Harbaugh is a flash in the pan or a proven high level coach, but by then he may no longer be available - he'll either be at a top-notch football school or he'll be basically entrenched at Stanford. If he can consistently win at Stanford and compete for Pac-10 titles, I see little reason for him to leave for another college job - at that point he's either at Stanford for a long time or he decides to jump to the NFL.

I agree with most of this, but I'm just extremely wary about hyping "the next big thing" effectively off a 2-game span (Oregon/USC) especially when he loses 3 of the 5 around that game. Considering his team was superficially the same (albeit slightly better) than Charlie Weis' Notre Dame, what shows he is a better coach than Jeff Tedford, Mike Riley or even Mike Stoops?

You can say the same about most of the hot candidates - Gary Patterson coming from TCU has the shadow of Dennis Franchione and Chris Peterson at Boise that of Koetter and Hawkins, but admittedly as an East Coaster with less insight into the PAC-10 I'm not sold on Harbaugh any more than Tedford or Riley.

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

I think X's and O's why he's perfect for ND, but I am not sure how he'll handle the media if he gets the job. I do think there won't be a middle ground though. He'll either win big or flame out in a blaze of glory.

I eagerly anticipate the stories saying ND had to sell out their integrity to finally be relevant again.

[jbergey22]

I wonder what Charlie will do now. He actually did a good job of getting recruits especially offensively. I wonder if he stays in the college ranks or heads back to the NFL as an O Cordinator.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

I wonder what Charlie will do now. He actually did a good job of getting recruits especially offensively. I wonder if he stays in the college ranks or heads back to the NFL as an O Cordinator.

NFL teams are lining up at his door. He'll be back in no time. College is way too much work. Especially after you got $18m to leave one that was your alma mater. No way he's doing that shit again.

[Swaggs]

He can be very picky w/ all the money he has coming his way.

He'd be smart to take a year off, get his weight and health under control (he almost died from a failed gastric bypass several years ago), and then come back. He's only 53-years old now and is connected to Parcells and Belichick. He could take a year off, serve as an offensive coordinator in the NFL for a few seasons and then probably get an NFL head coaching job.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

NFL teams are lining up at his door. He'll be back in no time. College is way too much work. Especially after you got $18m to leave one that was your alma mater. No way he's doing that shit again.

I do think he'll end up as an NFL OC, partly because he's better as an OC than an HC, but also because his buyout is probably invalidated if he took another college HC job.

And for the record, I have no idea why people keep talking about an $18m buyout. The $18m was approximately the amount left on the contract (6years x 3m) and the buyout was assuredly less than that. I'd also wager money that his buyout was lowered last December as part of the agreement to him coming back for 2009.

[cthomer5000]

4-5 million seems to be the tossed about numbers for his actual buyout.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I agree with most of this, but I'm just extremely wary about hyping "the next big thing" effectively off a 2-game span (Oregon/USC) especially when he loses 3 of the 5 around that game. Considering his team was superficially the same (albeit slightly better) than Charlie Weis' Notre Dame, what shows he is a better coach than Jeff Tedford, Mike Riley or even Mike Stoops?

Mike Riley and Jeff Tedford are excellent coaches. Riley will never leave Oregon State again - he's been down that road and is content the 2nd time around to stick with what he knows. Corvallis is his hometown, his dad coached there, he's built what was arguably the worst BCS program in the country for 20+ years into a Pac-10 title contender - there's little incentive for him to leave.

Tedford is losing a little bit of shine with his inability to get past USC and win the conference, but he's had opportunities to go elsewhere and has thus far resisted. His family loves it in the Bay Area, he has a good recruiting base and facilities improvements appear to finally be on there way. I wouldn't rule out Tedford jumping to a higher profile job, but it probably has to happen soon, and I wouldn't be surprised if he's more inclined to go to the NFL if he ever decides to leave Cal.

Stoops? I don't think he belongs in that category, and I'm more impressed with what Harbaugh has done. It took Stoops five seasons to break .500, and his team has backslid some this season.

As for Harbaugh and Stanford comparing to Notre Dame and Weis - Stanford was 2 wins better than the Irish against a harder schedule. I think that's more than just "slightly better", and certainly not "superficially the same".

I'd rank the Pac-10 coaches like this at the moment:

1. Carroll
2. Riley
3. Tedford

Gap

4. Harbaugh
5. Kelly

Gap

6. Stoops
7. Erickson
8. Neuheisel
9. Sarkisian

Huge gap

10. Wulff

With another good season next year, Harbaugh jumps into the top level of Pac-10 coaches with Carroll, Riley & Tedford. Kelly can make that jump as well - right now, you can't be sure how much he's riding off the coattails of Bellotti. Neuheisel and Sarkisian could make jumps up too with good seasons next year, and Stoops and Erickson are in danger of falling.

Wulff is probably gone after next season.

[bhlloy]

I don't know what the answer is at Washington State but it's just stunning to see the level they are recruiting at compared to the rest of the Pac-10. When you can promise unlimited playing time, a chance to be on TV and play in a major conference and don't really have strict academic standards, it's completely unexcusable to be recruiting the kind of no-names that WSU is right now. Hell, I can't remember a single recruit in SoCal over the last 3-4 years that has even mentioned WSU. Sure it's a tough job but you have to at least compete. Look at what Sarkisian has done since he's been there, Washington is actually a serious player for a lot of the upper level LA kids and are at least competing for some of the elite guys.

They actually have a local kid #8 TE in the nation this year, their next best recruit is the #31 TE in the nation. They have as many 2 star guys as 3 star guys and even a couple of 1 star guys (who usually don't even get recruited by a D1 program). Scout goes down to 250-300 usually in ranking by position and a bunch of their recruits aren't even ranked. In 2009 their best player was the #39 receiver in the country. These are the kind of kids you fill out a class with, not the kind you are getting in October and November. I really don't see a way back for them but if there is one, they have to get rid of Wulff ASAP and find a coach who has some recruiting pull.

[RainMaker]

I wouldn't mind the Bears taking a swipe at Weis. Can't be any worse than what we have right now.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

I don't know what the answer is at Washington State but it's just stunning to see the level they are recruiting at compared to the rest of the Pac-10. When you can promise unlimited playing time, a chance to be on TV and play in a major conference and don't really have strict academic standards, it's completely unexcusable to be recruiting the kind of no-names that WSU is right now.

Pullman has to be the dowdiest place to play in any of the BCS conferences. I mean, at least Waco is warm.

The lack of success I think caps it off. A program like that, has to really cultivate its regional roots because if they can't afford you a chance at bowl games or anything else, a kid would rather go sit on the bench at a better school than start at one where they know they'll probably never have success.

It doesn't help that Boise State is in their territory. I think the upstarts in the Pacific Northwest/Intermountain West (plus TCU) have made it harder for those second-tier BCS programs that don't have a ton of in-state talent to compete. The fact that they're disproportionately out west hurts, because at least the Yankee schools have their own weak BCS league.

It's almost akin to the decision of a kid on the fringe to go top-tier FCS versus lower-level FBS because he'll get the chance to compete for a national title and if he performs really well, an outside shot at the next level and of course, the same chance to play.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I wouldn't mind the Bears taking a swipe at Weis. Can't be any worse than what we have right now.

Bill Cowler would be a great fit in Chicago IMO. He could bring back that tough defense and power running game they used to be known for. I hate the Bears as a passing team. NFC Central used to be the Black and Blue division now it is getting soft.

Oops wrong thread. Ill keep it on topic from now on

[bhlloy]

I guess to be fair I should point out that there is one program in the Pac-10 that does recruit almost as badly as WSU - Oregon State. But at this point who can deny that Riley has an amazing eye for talent (and OSU typically recruits the JC's very, very well) whereas WSU's strategy just seems to be "anybody with a pulse". Plus OSU has recruited some big time guys along the way - the Rodgers brothers, Phillip last year, Simi Kuli was a JC guy but could have probably gone to any program in the country.

[bhlloy]

DC - great points. With the national attention that Boise has got the WAC, it's no surprise that is hurting WSU even more. It's absolutely no contest to which program a kid from Idaho or Eastern Washington would rather go to these days.

But that is even more the point really, WSU has to hire somebody to go head to head with the upstart programs. Not a nice guy like Wulff who is a solid coach, but is never going to be able to get the talent to show it.

[dawgfan]

Pullman is a tough place to recruit to. You have to have a coach that has an eye for potential and can develop that potential, and can recruit to a specific system. You also have to target kids that are maybe looking to escape urban settings where they are likely to be drawn into trouble, or kids that really value small, close-knit communities. They have to be able to deal with cold weather and not a whole lot to do compared to bigger cities, as Pullman is quite isolated and not very big. It's the toughest place to recruit to in the Pac-10, and among the toughest of any BCS conference schools.

That said, WSU fans would tell you that Wulff is actually recruiting quite well, and who's to say at the moment they're wrong? I guess we'll see over the next 4-5 years. He's got a decent QB in Tuel, good WR prospects in Karstetter and Simone and some good young guys on defense like Bland. And with only a few exceptions, he's been redshirting his classes to build for the future at the expense of the present. That philosophy has also extended to them moving away from recruiting JC kids, preferring to build for the long term with H.S. kids.

Also, keep in mind that in Scout.com's system, a 1-star rating simply means that a player hasn't been evaluated. The lowest rating they give to someone they've evaluated is 2-stars.

I do think there's a lot to the theory that Boise State's success has hurt WSU. They are strong competition for the Inland Empire kids that WSU used to build off of. That said, some of it is simply evaluation mistakes. WSU didn't even offer Kellen Moore for example.

I'm not convinced Wulff is a good enough coach to survive in the Pac-10, and I think he's going to have to ditch his no-huddle offense - it just doesn't seem to be working. When you compare him to the rest of the coaches in the Pac-10, he just doesn't seem to measure up. But to be fair, it's still early to form a full judgment on his tenure.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

I guess to be fair I should point out that there is one program in the Pac-10 that does recruit almost as badly as WSU - Oregon State. But at this point who can deny that Riley has an amazing eye for talent...

When you consider the differences between recruiting to USC and recruiting to OSU, I think an argument can be made that Mike Riley is every bit the coach that Pete Carroll is, maybe even better.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

With another good season next year, Harbaugh jumps into the top level of Pac-10 coaches with Carroll, Riley & Tedford.

I wasn't looking for a detailed ranking (although it is nice, and pretty much what I have except for using a parallel ranking of established vs. new instead of trying to place Sarkisian vs. Erickson for example - I think we can say Erickson doesn't have it anymore while it's unfair to Sark that his team was so bad last year) but pointing out that, as you yourself say, Tedford has lost the shine because he's still at 8-4/9-3. People love Harbaugh because they see him get to 8-3 but there's no guarantee he'll maintain it, let alone surpass USC as the PAC-10 standard bearer (although to be fair, I'm not sure we should expect him to at Stanford.) Meanwhile the comparative hype for Tedford is much lower despite consistent success at an academically, athletically, and historically similar school.

As for Harbaugh and Stanford comparing to Notre Dame and Weis - Stanford was 2 wins better than the Irish against a harder schedule. I think that's more than just "slightly better", and certainly not "superficially the same".

"Superficially the same" - strong offense (although Stanford was more run-oriented and better in the red zone) and terrible defense, combined with losses to lower ranked teams (Wake, Arizona in their case). "Slightly better" - the stats are almost the same outside of 3rd down and red zone conversion %, the schedules are nearly equal (16th and 24th) and I just watched the two teams engage in a shootout ND led in the 4th quarter and lost on a 4th-down halfback pass - and it's exactly how I assumed the game would go. It wasn't an aberration and ND wasn't lucky to be in the game - they are a similar, but slightly worse team than Stanford. If you want to "crown his ass" over an 8-4 season and the wins over Oregon/USC, go ahead, but I'm going to take into account the losses to inferior teams early, rival Cal directly after beating Oregon/USC, the even game I just watched them play vs. ND, the defense that was statistically worse than Notre Dame's (despite 6 senior starters)and the fact they lose multiple senior OL and probably their Heisman hopeful RB. And given all that, I think the elite schools would be wise to wait another year before paying Harbaugh like an elite coach - although as you say, that has the downside of him being hired by another or deciding to stay at Stanford.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I wasn't looking for a detailed ranking (although it is nice, and pretty much what I have except for using a parallel ranking of established vs. new instead of trying to place Sarkisian vs. Erickson for example - I think we can say Erickson doesn't have it anymore while it's unfair to Sark that his team was so bad last year) but pointing out that, as you yourself say, Tedford has lost the shine because he's still at 8-4/9-3. People love Harbaugh because they see him get to 8-3 but there's no guarantee he'll maintain it, let alone surpass USC as the PAC-10 standard bearer (although to be fair, I'm not sure we should expect him to at Stanford.) Meanwhile the comparative hype for Tedford is much lower despite consistent success at an academically, athletically, and historically similar school."Superficially the same" - strong offense (although Stanford was more run-oriented and better in the red zone) and terrible defense, combined with losses to lower ranked teams (Wake, Arizona in their case). "Slightly better" - the stats are almost the same outside of 3rd down and red zone conversion %, the schedules are nearly equal (16th and 24th) and I just watched the two teams engage in a shootout ND led in the 4th quarter and lost on a 4th-down halfback pass - and it's exactly how I assumed the game would go. It wasn't an aberration and ND wasn't lucky to be in the game - they are a similar, but slightly worse team than Stanford. If you want to "crown his ass" over an 8-4 season and the wins over Oregon/USC, go ahead, but I'm going to take into account the losses to inferior teams early, rival Cal directly after beating Oregon/USC, the even game I just watched them play vs. ND, the defense that was statistically worse than Notre Dame's (despite 6 senior starters)and the fact they lose multiple senior OL and probably their Heisman hopeful RB. And given all that, I think the elite schools would be wise to wait another year before paying Harbaugh like an elite coach - although as you say, that has the downside of him being hired by another or deciding to stay at Stanford.

What worries me most about Harbaugh is the NFL. I do think he plans on doing college a little bit longer, but at the same time, he spent so much time in the NFL that I have no idea if that is what he wants or if he is content will college. While all the college to pro guys have flamed out for the most part, he seems to be the one current guy with a lot of shine on him and will assuredly be called once the season is over about openings.

That is when the real fun will start.

[Cuckoo]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

...and with his failure to win another title since 2000, some think he's plateaued at Oklahoma and that Texas has finally passed them by in the Big-12.

Seriously...? Ah, come on man. You know I can't let this one slide. Just check the number of Big 12 Championships of Stoops vs. Brown. Even if Texas gets one this year, which they certainly will, it's not even close. And just because OU had a bad season this year with injuries like I've never seen before, don't expect them not to return to previous form. All indications are that this recruiting class will be one of their best.

[Captain2711]

I can't believe how classless Bowden is being saying he wants his last game to be in Florida. The team doesn't deserve the Champs or Gator Bowl. As a member of a collegiate staff, my bowl bonus is higher by a full paycheck if my school attended either of these bowl games. If I was a member of Clemson, BC or Georgia Tech, I would be pissed. I know he was forced out and that sucks but leveraging your way into a better bowl is not the way to leave.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Cuckoo

Seriously...? Ah, come on man. You know I can't let this one slide. Just check the number of Big 12 Championships of Stoops vs. Brown. Even if Texas gets one this year, which they certainly will, it's not even close. And just because OU had a bad season this year with injuries like I've never seen before, don't expect them not to return to previous form. All indications are that this recruiting class will be one of their best.

Note that I didn't say I think he's plateaued, just that some out there think so.

I've said repeatedly I don't think Stoops will leave Oklahoma - I think he'll just play Notre Dame's apparent interest into a raise and/or extension.

One could paint a plausible scenario for why he might leave, but I doubt it will happen.

[DeToxRox]

Apparently ND is reaching out to Mike Reiley right now. Great coach but everything I read says he's from Corvallis and loves it there. Maybe ND is a job he leaves for though.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Captain2711

I can't believe how classless Bowden is being saying he wants his last game to be in Florida. The team doesn't deserve the Champs or Gator Bowl. As a member of a collegiate staff, my bowl bonus is higher by a full paycheck if my school attended either of these bowl games. If I was a member of Clemson, BC or Georgia Tech, I would be pissed. I know he was forced out and that sucks but leveraging your way into a better bowl is not the way to leave.

what a tool. i hope they tell him to go fuck himself

no way BC makes either of those bowls though - we'll be lucky to get the Emerald Bowl in SF (although if we do maybe i'd go out there for that?)

[Butter]

Originally Posted by Captain2711

I can't believe how classless Bowden is being saying he wants his last game to be in Florida.

Really? I have come to expect it. I am just so pleased he won't be able to catch Paterno in wins, I can't even tell you.

[Cuckoo]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Note that I didn't say I think he's plateaued, just that some out there think so.

Fair enough... I'll leave my post as directed to anyone crazy enough to think Texas has surpassed Oklahoma in the Big XII.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Cuckoo

Fair enough... I'll leave my post as directed to anyone crazy enough to think Texas has surpassed Oklahoma in the Big XII.

Wow, call me crazy to think there might be a case to be made when Texas is 4-1 against OU over the past 5 seasons. Not to mention the much better performances Texas has turned in when in BCS games.

Most disinterested observers would have a hard time making a definitive case that either team is ahead of the other.

[the_meanstrosity]

Looks like Gary Patterson is working on an extension with TCU. It should make the Horned Frog faithful feel a bit more secure this off-season once it's signed.

http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/ncf...ory?id=4703348

[Atocep]

Kelly still won't shoot down ND rumors. I think it's safe to say that if he's offered, he'll be the ND coach.

[Cuckoo]

Originally Posted by cartman

Wow, call me crazy to think there might be a case to be made when Texas is 4-1 against OU over the past 5 seasons. Not to mention the much better performances Texas has turned in when in BCS games.

Hmm... I would swear he said Big XII.

Originally Posted by cartman

Most disinterested observers would have a hard time making a definitive case that either team is ahead of the other.

And I'm not sure I said that. Pay attention, cartman...

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Apparently ND is reaching out to Mike Reiley right now. Great coach but everything I read says he's from Corvallis and loves it there. Maybe ND is a job he leaves for though.

Riley will not leave Oregon State. He's been down that road before and has no interest in repeating it.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by cartman

Most disinterested observers would have a hard time making a definitive case that either team is ahead of the other.

Originally Posted by Cuckoo

And I'm not sure I said that. Pay attention, cartman...

You seemed to infer that Oklahoma was ahead of Texas with this statement:

Originally Posted by Cuckoo

I'll leave my post as directed to anyone crazy enough to think Texas has surpassed Oklahoma in the Big XII.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

what a tool. i hope they tell him to go fuck himself

no way BC makes either of those bowls though - we'll be lucky to get the Emerald Bowl in SF (although if we do maybe i'd go out there for that?)

Yeah, I don't see BC getting a bowl down in Florida. Some projections have them going to the Meineke in Charlotte (vs Pitt or WVU) others figure Emerald vs Stanford.

edit to add: Last year's trip to the Music City Bowl seems to limit them to those two options realistically. And since UNC went to the Meineke last year (and is projected to Nashville this year), I first thought it would be the more likely option for BC although you were just there in '06.

But upon further review, I assume FSU will be considered the first choice for the bowls with the 5/6/7 ties & since it appears that the Emerald bowl tie ends after this season (they go to a WAC 1/2/3 or Army or Navy tie starting next year) I'd think they'll get the last choice meaning something like
UNC - Music City ... FSU - Meineke ... BC - Emerald
might be the end result

[Logan]

If Rutgers wins vs WVU Saturday and Cincy beats Pitt, it looks like WVU will still go to the Gator (obviously, as discussed) and Rutgers will face Miami in Charlotte. Would be a fun match-up with Schiano's history over there.

Pitt and their disgustingly-small traveling fanbase would probably head to Toronto.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Logan

If Rutgers wins vs WVU Saturday and Cincy beats Pitt, it looks like WVU will still go to the Gator (obviously, as discussed) and Rutgers will face Miami in Charlotte. Would be a fun match-up with Schiano's history over there.

Pitt and their disgustingly-small traveling fanbase would probably head to Toronto.

Even with a Rutgers loss you may end up in the Charlotte bowl. Pitt's fanbase is that bad. They returned 5k tickets for the brawl this year.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Logan

If Rutgers wins vs WVU Saturday and Cincy beats Pitt, it looks like WVU will still go to the Gator (obviously, as discussed) and Rutgers will face Miami in Charlotte. Would be a fun match-up with Schiano's history over there.

{scratches head}

I'm having a tough time figuring how Miami ends up bumped down to the 5/6/7 ACC bowl tier. They're #3 by overall record, tied for #4 in conference record with BC, will be ACC #4 in the BCS at worst.

I think the conference has been through enough upset, hard feelings, anger, etc at bowls trying to break the selection order in the past few years that them getting downgraded is unlikely & perhaps even moreso because it would be at the benefit of a hated rival.

edit to add: Since in hindsight I realize that I shouldn't take for granted that everyone knows this, the ACC pick order is Orange-Peach-Gator-Champ Sports 1 thru 4, followed by a 5/6/7 tier that isn't specific for Music City, Meineke, and Emerald. Then comes Eagle Bank & GMAC in the event there are 8 or 9 teams bowl eligible.

That changes next year incidentally, becoming Orange-Peach-Champs-Sun (ACCCG runner-up or #4)-Meineke-Music City-Independence-Eagle Bank, with a contingency to fill the Emerald if there's no one in their new deal eligible.

Incident

[terpkristin]

Maryland is keeping Fridge. Maryland Athletics - University of Maryland Official Athletic Site

Still not sure how I feel about that, as a season ticket holder.

/tk

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

{scratches head}

I'm having a tough time figuring how Miami ends up bumped down to the 5/6/7 ACC bowl tier. They're #3 by overall record, tied for #4 in conference record with BC, will be ACC #4 in the BCS at worst.

I think the conference has been through enough upset, hard feelings, anger, etc at bowls trying to break the selection order in the past few years that them getting downgraded is unlikely & perhaps even moreso because it would be at the benefit of a hated rival.

edit to add: Since in hindsight I realize that I shouldn't take for granted that everyone knows this, the ACC pick order is Orange-Peach-Gator-Champ Sports 1 thru 4, followed by a 5/6/7 tier that isn't specific for Music City, Meineke, and Emerald. Then comes Eagle Bank & GMAC in the event there are 8 or 9 teams bowl eligible.

That changes next year incidentally, becoming Orange-Peach-Champs-Sun (ACCCG runner-up or #4)-Meineke-Music City-Independence-Eagle Bank, with a contingency to fill the Emerald if there's no one in their new deal eligible.

Incident

This is the Gator's last year with BE/ACC matchup. I don't think they really care if they piss anyone off and Bowden coming out and saying he wants a Florida bowl game plus the FSU president leaking an agreement being reached puts the ACC in a really tough spot.

I won't shed any tears for Miami, though. The move the ACC has been a disaster for them to this point.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Even with a Rutgers loss you may end up in the Charlotte bowl. Pitt's fanbase is that bad. They returned 5k tickets for the brawl this year.

So sad.

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

{scratches head}

I'm having a tough time figuring how Miami ends up bumped down to the 5/6/7 ACC bowl tier. They're #3 by overall record, tied for #4 in conference record with BC, will be ACC #4 in the BCS at worst.

I think the conference has been through enough upset, hard feelings, anger, etc at bowls trying to break the selection order in the past few years that them getting downgraded is unlikely & perhaps even moreso because it would be at the benefit of a hated rival.

Like you said, FSU being bumped up significantly is how Miami gets pushed from 4th to 5th. Clemson goes to the Champs on account of bringing a bigger crowd (and maybe due to the H2H win?). Just speculation I've read, nothing locked in.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Atocep

This is the Gator's last year with BE/ACC matchup. I don't think they really care if they piss anyone off and Bowden coming out and saying he wants a Florida bowl game plus the FSU president leaking an agreement being reached puts the ACC in a really tough spot.

I thought, the conference ultimately has to sign off on who goes where (although that may only be true 5-7 and not 2-4) so even if the Gator doesn't care about making someone mad, the ACC would/should/might. But they may not be contractually able to stop it either.

And if it were another team getting screwed over to give Bowden a FL bowl I might think it was more likely but Miami? Damn, that's asking them to swallow an awful lot even if I do wish they had never been added to the conference in the first place.

And if FSU leaked it (which I'm pretty sure is a conference rule violation) then they at least ought to get their hand spanked for it as hard as the conference rules allow.

[JonInMiddleGA]

And lest I look too dumb, I didn't know about the Gator leak until it was mentioned in this thread.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I thought, the conference ultimately has to sign off on who goes where (although that may only be true 5-7 and not 2-4) so even if the Gator doesn't care about making someone mad, the ACC would/should/might. But they may not be contractually able to stop it either.

And if it were another team getting screwed over to give Bowden a FL bowl I might think it was more likely but Miami? Damn, that's asking them to swallow an awful lot even if I do wish they had never been added to the conference in the first place.

And if FSU leaked it (which I'm pretty sure is a conference rule violation) then they at least ought to get their hand spanked for it as hard as the conference rules allow.

My understanding of the ACC rules is that at 6-6 FSU can't bypass any team with more than 1 win in conference play without permission. The ACC title game winner obviously goes to the BCS, the 2nd pick will likely be Va Tech, with FSU at 4-4 in conference play that only leaves the loser of Clemson and Georgia Tech as the team they need permission to jump. Miami gets screwed, but it's a situation where they really aren't going to have say in the matter.

Here's a blog post on ESPN where they quote a conference spokesman.

FSU to Gator Bowl? - ACC Blog - ESPN

[Noop]

I am not much of a fan of Bobby Bowden these days(In time I will reflect and gain my love for him) but some of the comments made are shitty. If Bowden wants to play in Florida and a bowl other then the Gator picks them(like the Champs) then how is that wrong?

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Logan

So sad.

You can buy a group of 15 tickets right now for their game against Cincy on Saturday. Can probably go higher, but 15 is what I tried for shits and giggles.

[DeToxRox]

Reading a few sites, and Butch Davis is popping up quite a bit for ND. I doubt it but it'd be interesting. Great recruiter, but never been a big fan of his coaching.

[Logan]

Looks like you were right, as now the most in-touch Rutgers writer is saying Rutgers will go to the Meineke win-or-lose vs WVU unless Pitt beats Cincy.

So Pitt will either be going to a BCS game or Birmingham, Alabama. Ouch.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Atocep

My understanding of the ACC rules is that at 6-6 FSU can't bypass any team with more than 1 win in conference play without permission. The ACC title game winner obviously goes to the BCS, the 2nd pick will likely be Va Tech, with FSU at 4-4 in conference play that only leaves the loser of Clemson and Georgia Tech as the team they need permission to jump. Miami gets screwed, but it's a situation where they really aren't going to have say in the matter.

Here's a blog post on ESPN where they quote a conference spokesman.

FSU to Gator Bowl? - ACC Blog - ESPN

Okay, so
1 to the Orange (GT/CLEM), 2 to the Peach (VT), 3 to the Gator, 4 to the Champ Sports

So from the spokesman, the only way FSU can go to the Gator Bowl is if GT or Clemson agree to be bypassed?

BUT

By that rule, the team chosen must be within one loss in the conference standings of the best team available, and the loser of the ACC championship game -- either Georgia Tech or Clemson --will have at least six conference wins. Virginia Tech also has six wins, while Florida State only has four. The ACC championship game has no impact on the final conference record.

So on losses that count we've got
GT - 1
VT & CLEM - 2
BC & Miami - 3
FSU & UNC - 4

So if Clemson loses the ACCCG & agrees to give away the Gator Bowl to FSU with the presumption of getting the Champs, what prevents the Champs from taking Miami over them and bumping the conference runner-up all the way to the #5 bowl?

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Reading a few sites, and Butch Davis is popping up quite a bit for ND. I doubt it but it'd be interesting. Great recruiter, but never been a big fan of his coaching.

Wouldn't shock me at all. Davis has done well at North Carolina, but he'd have the ability to recruit better guys easier at Notre Dame. And he could elevate his reputation as a coach by succeeding at Notre Dame. He got a lot of credit for rebuilding Miami after their probation and setting the table for Coker, but he's predictably found the sledding a little tougher at Carolina.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by Logan

If Rutgers wins vs WVU Saturday and Cincy beats Pitt, it looks like WVU will still go to the Gator (obviously, as discussed) and Rutgers will face Miami in Charlotte. Would be a fun match-up with Schiano's history over there.

Pitt and their disgustingly-small traveling fanbase would probably head to Toronto.

It would almost be worth losing to see Pitt fall all the way down to Toronto in "the season that they returned to prominence."

Almost. If WVU and Cincy both win, I'd still love to see Rutgers to Charlotte (which is actually a pretty nice bowl trip, in my experience) and Pitt to Toronto or Birmingham.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Reading a few sites, and Butch Davis is popping up quite a bit for ND. I doubt it but it'd be interesting. Great recruiter, but never been a big fan of his coaching.

I think he'd be a good choice if he were 5 to 10 years younger, but he is 58-years old right now. I'm not sure it makes sense from his or Notre Dame's point of view when you consider his age. He's had cancer and probably isn't a guy that will want to coach into his late 60s or 70s and he kind of already has the ball rolling at UNC.