NFL Week 9: Origins - Page 3

Ronnie Dobbs2 · 11-09-2009, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomkal

So what exactly happened here? I've not really seen much about it in the recaps or paper.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dcs...ine_melee.html

Tasan · 11-09-2009, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeeberD

So you're saying that if a RB gets the ball and runs to the 40, but then cuts back to avoid a tackler and gets brought down at the 38 that the ball should be spotted at the 40? Forward progress has to do with a defender moving the ball carrier backwards, correct?

Bingo. The forward progress rule is where the ball is when first contact with an opposing player is made. A player, untouched, can go back and forth, for any reason, all they want and the ball will be down where ever they made stopping contact with a defender. A player in mid air catches the ball at the 20, but flying through the air lands back at the 22. Then the defender hits him and drives him back to the 25. Ball is down at the 22 because the player, unimpeded by a defender, went backwards from the 20 to the 22, but forward progress is ruled at the 22 and not the 25 because that's where the defender first made stopping contact.

jbergey22 · 11-09-2009, 01:00 PM

This forward progress rule isnt always called consistently that is what bothers me about it.

For instance RB jumps into a pile gets shoved back 5 yards breaks free and tries to get the corner and loses 3 more yards. A lot of times this will be marked 8 yards back from where forward progress was essentially stopped.

WR catches a pass at the 44 gets popped back to the 41 tries to turn it back upfield loses 3 more yards and the ball gets marked at the 38.

Its just not called correctly.

And I dont want to get started on how bad the officials are at getting the calls correct even after looking at instant replay. I am so sick of the fumble/instant replay rule it makes me want to throw up every time one of them come up.

The ruling on the field is "After reviewing the play the player did fumble the ball however since there is no clear evidence of who recovered the ball, the play stands as called" despite the fact that the defensive player came out of the pile holding the ball in the air. I love this one as well "The play is unable to be challenged because the play was blown dead" The league has no desire to get the plays correct so why dont we just get rid of instant replay and quit wasting everyones time.

Tasan · 11-09-2009, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbergey22

This forward progress rule isnt always called consistently that is what bothers me about it.

For instance RB jumps into a pile gets shoved back 5 yards breaks free and tries to get the corner and loses 3 more yards. A lot of times this will be marked 8 yards back from where forward progress was essentially stopped.

WR catches a pass at the 44 gets popped back to the 41 tries to turn it back upfield loses 3 more yards and the ball gets marked at the 38.

Its just not called correctly.

Actually both of those are correct. If the offensive player breaks free from initial contact they can attempt to make further progress. If that progress actually goes backwards from there, then they've lost yards, but they will get any further positive yards they get if that's the case as well. Its a risk/reward thing. Think of Barry Sanders all those years, running into the pile, squirting out and going 80 for the TD. If he doesn't get the chance to make further progress (its clear that he still has a chance), then he goes from one of the best RBs of all time to an afterthought on the pile of everyday RBs.

Tasan · 11-09-2009, 01:09 PM

It all comes down to whether the player makes a second effort or not. If the player tries to separate from the pile to gain more yards, then he's also responsible for any lost. If he's just getting shoved backwards by an overpowering defender, then he gets a spot where ever he stopped going forward. Happens all the time on sacks. You're thinking, good grief, how are we going to get out of that hole, but then the refs put the ball up 4 more yards and you breathe a little easier.

I think this rule is actually called pretty fairly. Now that spot at midfield? That was interesting to say the least, but also very hard to say where all his body parts were and what had touched the ground.

Mizzou B-ball fan · 11-09-2009, 01:35 PM

I'm a bit behind, but absolutely thrilled that Larry Johnson got cut. That dude has been an absolute cancer on this team. If someone else wants to deal with that soap opera, have at it. He's not worth it. Also very glad that he was cut before he could pass Priest Holmes on the Chiefs all-time list.

MikeVic · 11-09-2009, 01:43 PM

I think he'll end up on Seattle.

Dr. Sak · 11-09-2009, 03:04 PM

Forward progress is the foremost point of the ball when the voluntary movement of the player is stopped.

Greyroofoo · 11-09-2009, 03:25 PM

So has ESPN started the Patriots Colts hype machine yet?

sabotai · 11-09-2009, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

So has ESPN started the Patriots Colts hype machine yet?

They started it before last night's game began.

Tasan · 11-09-2009, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Forward progress is the foremost point of the ball when the voluntary movement of the player is stopped.

Thanks for saying that so much more eloquently and in much fewer words than I did ;- )

Tasan · 11-09-2009, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

So has ESPN started the Patriots Colts hype machine yet?

Isn't it the Sunday night NBC game? I sure did see a ton of ads for it during last night's game.

molson · 11-09-2009, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Forward progress is the foremost point of the ball when the voluntary movement of the player is stopped.

Did the forward progress rule play any part in the McNabb call (if you saw it)? Certainly the referee referenced forward progress, which I took perhaps to mean that McNabb was marked down prior to the last squirm that would have given him the first down.

People are yelling about the ball being placed short of the spot where McNabb's right elbow visibly touched the ground, but obviously, the refs believed he was down before that (or at least, they couldn't tell for sure on replay if his left elbow touched earlier). Could the refs have decided that McNabb's forward progress stopped prior to where he ended up?

Dr. Sak · 11-09-2009, 04:43 PM

I didn't get to see that play. I'll see if I can find it on you tube.

Tasan · 11-09-2009, 07:17 PM

http://www.nfl.com/videos

Swaggs · 11-09-2009, 08:09 PM

Broncos are doing a good job of wrapping Roethlisberger up, rather than going for the big hit or the strip, so far.

Swaggs · 11-09-2009, 08:16 PM

Lord Tyrone will probably be buying himself a new car as a reward for that pick 6.

Suburban Rhythm · 11-09-2009, 08:17 PM

I swear he mouthed "This is for stevew" as he crossed the goal line!

stevew · 11-09-2009, 08:26 PM

FUCK. Was ordering food and missed Tyrone

stevew · 11-09-2009, 08:29 PM

Tank is probably happy. He might not have to rough someone up in jail tonight.

Galaril · 11-09-2009, 08:34 PM

Nice penalty. F$%^ the Skeelers have been holding all night.

stevew · 11-09-2009, 08:35 PM

So glad Bitch Burger isn't our punter this year. Can't believe he got another job.

stevew · 11-09-2009, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galaril

Nice penalty. F$%^ the Skeelers have been holding all night.

James Harrison is held on every play. Eventually they have to call it.

MikeVic · 11-09-2009, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew

James Harrison is held on every play. Eventually they have to call it.

+1.

Also, anyone else see that first video of Ty Law, like a couple of plays into the Steelers' first or second possession? Law is holding onto the receivers' jersey (Ward maybe?) and one of the commentators is yelling "what a performance by Law! He just got here Friday!"

I'm not arguing whether the receiver was held or not, that was whatever. But the commentator's comment was just stupid. What performance? It was like his first or second defensive assignment all night.

Swaggs · 11-09-2009, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeVic

+1.

Also, anyone else see that first video of Ty Law, like a couple of plays into the Steelers' first or second possession? Law is holding onto the receivers' jersey (Ward maybe?) and one of the commentators is yelling "what a performance by Law! He just got here Friday!"

I'm not arguing whether the receiver was held or not, that was whatever. But the commentator's comment was just stupid. What performance? It was like his first or second defensive assignment all night.

I noticed that because they showed the overhead replay at least twice.

I'm not sure what the exact rule is, but I think the unwritten rule is that you are pretty much allowed to do whatever to the receiver within the first five yards.

Galaril · 11-09-2009, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeVic

+1.

Also, anyone else see that first video of Ty Law, like a couple of plays into the Steelers' first or second possession? Law is holding onto the receivers' jersey (Ward maybe?) and one of the commentators is yelling "what a performance by Law! He just got here Friday!"

I'm not arguing whether the receiver was held or not, that was whatever. But the commentator's comment was just stupid. What performance? It was like his first or second defensive assignment all night.

That was nothing compared to the Rotheslesberger toe sucking before the game by all 9-10 guys on the pregame show. They actually compared him to Elway LMAO

Swaggs · 11-09-2009, 09:09 PM

This has been one of the best games I have ever seen for tackling. Not very man, if any, offensive players have gotten away from first contact.

Galaril · 11-09-2009, 09:15 PM

Nice! TD
Broncos

Galaril · 11-09-2009, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swaggs

This has been one of the best games I have ever seen for tackling. Not very man, if any, offensive players have gotten away from first contact.

Well you can always expect the Steelers to show up. They have been well coached for the last 34 years. As an old Oilers fan I have a special place in personal Hell for the Steelers and all their fans anyways.

Galaril · 11-09-2009, 10:13 PM

Wow, I wonder if the Browns will trade Brady to the Broncos. Orton just does not have the arm for the NFL period. If the Broncos don't want to get a real QB then they can trade Marshall and Royal to Tennessee at least we got a QB who has a strong arm not much else but at least better than Orton's limp noodle.

Greyroofoo · 11-09-2009, 10:17 PM

Nice to see that the Colts will retain the top scoring defense in the league.

stevew · 11-09-2009, 10:18 PM

What a pointless challenge by mcdouche. 13 is nothing at this point. Especially if you lose the time out.

Mendenhall is looking studly tonight.

Atocep · 11-09-2009, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galaril

Wow, I wonder if the Browns will trade Brady to thew Broncos. orton just does not have the arm for the NFL period. If the Broncos don't want to get a real QB then they can trade Marshall and Royal to Tennessee at least we got a QB who has a strong arm not much else but at least better than Orton's limp noodle.

It's what every bears fan realized long ago. Orton can be a solid NFL QB in a system that utilizes his strengths well, but he's not going to win games with his arm. He lacks arm strength and his accuracy on passes longer than 10 yards is not very good.

I like Kyle, but he needs an offensive coordinator more creative than Ron Turner to have success.

Crapshoot · 11-09-2009, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galaril

That was nothing compared to the Rotheslesberger toe sucking before the game by all 9-10 guys on the pregame show. They actually compared him to Elway LMAO

And that's harsh because? Shit, he's on his way to being better than Elway, and is definitely done better than Elway (so far through his short career).

Galaril · 11-09-2009, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep

It's what every bears fan realized long ago. Orton can be a solid NFL QB in a system that utilizes his strengths well, but he's not going to win games with his arm. He lacks arm strength and his accuracy on passes longer than 10 yards is not very good.

I like Kyle, but he needs an offensive coordinator more creative than Ron Turner to have success.

Pretty much the Broncos offensive play calling is done by McDaniels.

Galaril · 11-09-2009, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

And that's harsh because? Shit, he's on his way to being better than Elway, and is definitely done better than Elway (so far through his short career).

Ok.

lol

Atocep · 11-09-2009, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galaril

Pretty much the Broncos offensive play calling is done by McDaniels.

The Bear's OC is Ron Turner and his offensive system is about 10 years behind today's NFL. He'd a be a great fit in Oakland, though.

Atocep · 11-09-2009, 10:33 PM

Dola

I think Kyle can do well in Denver with McDaniels, but you have to build a team that supports Kyle. Something that got old in chicago after watching them try to do it with quarterbacks for the past 50 or so years.

Crapshoot · 11-09-2009, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galaril

Ok.

lol

Dude, take of your rose tinted glasses. Look at the numbers. Through the first 8 seasons or so, Ben's been better than Elway was (or at least equal). Your smiley faces don't change that.

Matthean · 11-09-2009, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep

It's what every bears fan realized long ago. Orton can be a solid NFL QB in a system that utilizes his strengths well, but he's not going to win games with his arm. He lacks arm strength and his accuracy on passes longer than 10 yards is not very good.

I like Kyle, but he needs an offensive coordinator more creative than Ron Turner to have success.

And let's not forget that Orton doesn't have to be the savior QB. He can be the place holder guy until they can get another QB in there. The added picks give them the freedom to do that.

Swaggs · 11-09-2009, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galaril

Ok.

lol

Seriously? It isn't even close. Elway was an average to above-average starting QB for his first 10 seasons and then dramatically elevated his game in his final 6 or 7 years.

stevew · 11-09-2009, 10:40 PM

That pick was for SR.

Suburban Rhythm · 11-09-2009, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew

That pick was for SR.

Will Tank Carter be able to fly to Honolulu with Lord Tyrone?

Swaggs · 11-09-2009, 10:44 PM

Dola... A lot of that is due to the fact that Elway was the only elite (or even very good) skill player on his team until TD and Rod Smith came along, but Roethlisberger, for all his faults, has been pretty good from the beginning. Elway went through some growing pains that Big Ben did not.

Eaglesfan27 · 11-09-2009, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Dude, take of your rose tinted glasses. Look at the numbers. Through the first 8 seasons or so, Ben's been better than Elway was (or at least equal). Your smiley faces don't change that.

Yep and it isn't even close when you look at the stats. Elway's best season during the same part of his career he had a QB rating of 83.4 and his worst season he had a rating of 54.9. He was in the 70's most of those years. Big Ben's worst season was a 75.4 and his best is a 104.1 which is a mark that Elway never hit. Big Ben has broken 100 twice, Elways has never broken that mark even once. In fact, Big Ben was at 98.6 two of his other years. Elway never even has reached that mark. In Elway's best season, his QB rating was only 93. Big Ben has been more efficient, and he has made big plays in the clutch.

Atocep · 11-09-2009, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Yep and it isn't even close when you look at the stats. Elway's best season during the same part of his career he had a QB rating of 83.4 and his worst season he had a rating of 54.9. He was in the 70's most of those years. Big Ben's worst season was a 75.4 and his best is a 104.1 which is a mark that Elway never hit. Big Ben has broken 100 twice, Elways has never broken that mark even once. In fact, Big Ben was at 98.6 two of his other years. Elway never even has reached that mark. In Elway's best season, his QB rating was only 93. Big Ben has been more efficient, and he has made big plays in the clutch.

Keep in mind that NFL offenses are much more QB-rating friendly than they were when Elway entered the league.

Logan · 11-09-2009, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swaggs

This has been one of the best games I have ever seen for tackling. Not very man, if any, offensive players have gotten away from first contact.

Definitely no contact on that last TD by Ward. What a move.

Eaglesfan27 · 11-09-2009, 10:49 PM

Dola -

If you want to look at other stats, Big Ben still comes out ahead. He has thrown for more yards and more TD's in his first 6 years than Elway. Pittsburgh has a great defense, but Big Ben has never had an elite receiver either.

Atocep · 11-09-2009, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Dola -

If you want to look at other stats, Big Ben still comes out ahead. He has thrown for more yards and more TD's in his first 6 years than Elway. Pittsburgh has a great defense, but Big Ben has never had an elite receiver either.

Those other stats are what make up QB rating, though. The league has become so efficient in its passing that you really can't compare QBs today to QBs 20 years ago. The only team running a system similar to what we see today was the 49ers.

Eaglesfan27 · 11-09-2009, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep

Keep in mind that NFL offenses are much more QB-rating friendly than they were when Elway entered the league.

True. But, it is worth at least comparing him to Elway. I think even with that being considered, Big Ben comes out favorably or at least even in the comparison if you look at the early part of both careers. It certainly isn't ridiculous to compare them.

11-09-2009, 01:00 PM	#103
jbergey22 Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Minnesota	This forward progress rule isnt always called consistently that is what bothers me about it. For instance RB jumps into a pile gets shoved back 5 yards breaks free and tries to get the corner and loses 3 more yards. A lot of times this will be marked 8 yards back from where forward progress was essentially stopped. WR catches a pass at the 44 gets popped back to the 41 tries to turn it back upfield loses 3 more yards and the ball gets marked at the 38. Its just not called correctly. And I dont want to get started on how bad the officials are at getting the calls correct even after looking at instant replay. I am so sick of the fumble/instant replay rule it makes me want to throw up every time one of them come up. The ruling on the field is "After reviewing the play the player did fumble the ball however since there is no clear evidence of who recovered the ball, the play stands as called" despite the fact that the defensive player came out of the pile holding the ball in the air. I love this one as well "The play is unable to be challenged because the play was blown dead" The league has no desire to get the plays correct so why dont we just get rid of instant replay and quit wasting everyones time. Last edited by jbergey22 : 11-09-2009 at 01:05 PM.

11-09-2009, 01:09 PM	#105
Tasan College Starter Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Houston, or there about	It all comes down to whether the player makes a second effort or not. If the player tries to separate from the pile to gain more yards, then he's also responsible for any lost. If he's just getting shoved backwards by an overpowering defender, then he gets a spot where ever he stopped going forward. Happens all the time on sacks. You're thinking, good grief, how are we going to get out of that hole, but then the refs put the ball up 4 more yards and you breathe a little easier. I think this rule is actually called pretty fairly. Now that spot at midfield? That was interesting to say the least, but also very hard to say where all his body parts were and what had touched the ground. __________________ 2011 Golden Scribes winner for best Interactive Dynasty

11-09-2009, 07:17 PM	#115
Tasan College Starter Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Houston, or there about	http://www.nfl.com/videos __________________ 2011 Golden Scribes winner for best Interactive Dynasty Last edited by Tasan : 11-09-2009 at 07:17 PM.

11-09-2009, 08:09 PM	#116
Swaggs Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	Broncos are doing a good job of wrapping Roethlisberger up, rather than going for the big hit or the strip, so far. __________________ DOWN WITH HATTRICK!!! The RWBL Are you reading In The Bleachers?

11-09-2009, 08:16 PM	#117
Swaggs Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	Lord Tyrone will probably be buying himself a new car as a reward for that pick 6. __________________ DOWN WITH HATTRICK!!! The RWBL Are you reading In The Bleachers?

11-09-2009, 01:35 PM	#106
Mizzou B-ball fan General Manager Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Kansas City, MO	I'm a bit behind, but absolutely thrilled that Larry Johnson got cut. That dude has been an absolute cancer on this team. If someone else wants to deal with that soap opera, have at it. He's not worth it. Also very glad that he was cut before he could pass Priest Holmes on the Chiefs all-time list.

11-09-2009, 01:43 PM	#107
MikeVic Head Coach Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Hometown of Canada	I think he'll end up on Seattle.

11-09-2009, 03:04 PM	#108
Dr. Sak Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Stuck in Yinzerville, PA	Forward progress is the foremost point of the ball when the voluntary movement of the player is stopped.

11-09-2009, 03:25 PM	#109
Greyroofoo Pro Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Alabama	So has ESPN started the Patriots Colts hype machine yet?

11-09-2009, 04:43 PM	#114
Dr. Sak Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Stuck in Yinzerville, PA	I didn't get to see that play. I'll see if I can find it on you tube.

11-09-2009, 08:17 PM	#118
Suburban Rhythm Pro Starter Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Pittsburgh	I swear he mouthed "This is for stevew" as he crossed the goal line! __________________ "Do you guys play fast tempos with odd time signatures?" "Yeah" "Cool!!"

11-09-2009, 08:26 PM	#119
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	FUCK. Was ordering food and missed Tyrone

11-09-2009, 08:29 PM	#120
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	Tank is probably happy. He might not have to rough someone up in jail tonight.

11-09-2009, 08:34 PM	#121
Galaril Pro Starter Join Date: Jan 2004	Nice penalty. F$%^ the Skeelers have been holding all night.

11-09-2009, 08:35 PM	#122
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	So glad Bitch Burger isn't our punter this year. Can't believe he got another job.

11-09-2009, 09:09 PM	#127
Swaggs Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	This has been one of the best games I have ever seen for tackling. Not very man, if any, offensive players have gotten away from first contact. __________________ DOWN WITH HATTRICK!!! The RWBL Are you reading In The Bleachers?

11-09-2009, 09:15 PM	#128
Galaril Pro Starter Join Date: Jan 2004	Nice! TD Broncos

11-09-2009, 10:13 PM	#130
Galaril Pro Starter Join Date: Jan 2004	Wow, I wonder if the Browns will trade Brady to the Broncos. Orton just does not have the arm for the NFL period. If the Broncos don't want to get a real QB then they can trade Marshall and Royal to Tennessee at least we got a QB who has a strong arm not much else but at least better than Orton's limp noodle. Last edited by Galaril : 11-09-2009 at 10:27 PM.

11-09-2009, 10:17 PM	#131
Greyroofoo Pro Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Alabama	Nice to see that the Colts will retain the top scoring defense in the league.

11-09-2009, 10:18 PM	#132
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	What a pointless challenge by mcdouche. 13 is nothing at this point. Especially if you lose the time out. Mendenhall is looking studly tonight.

11-09-2009, 10:33 PM	#138
Atocep Coordinator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Puyallup, WA	Dola I think Kyle can do well in Denver with McDaniels, but you have to build a team that supports Kyle. Something that got old in chicago after watching them try to do it with quarterbacks for the past 50 or so years.

11-09-2009, 10:40 PM	#142
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	That pick was for SR.

11-09-2009, 10:44 PM	#144
Swaggs Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	Dola... A lot of that is due to the fact that Elway was the only elite (or even very good) skill player on his team until TD and Rod Smith came along, but Roethlisberger, for all his faults, has been pretty good from the beginning. Elway went through some growing pains that Big Ben did not. __________________ DOWN WITH HATTRICK!!! The RWBL Are you reading In The Bleachers?

11-09-2009, 10:49 PM	#148
Eaglesfan27 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: New Jersey	Dola - If you want to look at other stats, Big Ben still comes out ahead. He has thrown for more yards and more TD's in his first 6 years than Elway. Pittsburgh has a great defense, but Big Ben has never had an elite receiver either. __________________ Retired GM of the eNFL 2007 Super Bowl Champion Philadelphia Eagles (19-0 record.) GM of the WOOF 2006 Doggie Bowl Champion Atlantic City Gamblers. GM of the IHOF 2019 and 2022 IHOF Bowl Champion Asheville Axemen.

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