Cops Kill Mentally Challenged Teen Using "Non-Lethal" Force - Page 3

Noop · 06-01-2009, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Exactly

Pepper Spray
Water

MrBug708 · 06-01-2009, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigercat

So I guess all of us that have loved ones that have mental disabilities or are prone to episodes of irrational behavior, just have to live in fear for the worst involving the people that are there to protect us. Maybe that is the necessary reality, but that is just a shame.

Unfortunately it is

MrBug708 · 06-01-2009, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop

Pepper Spray
Water

Pepper Spray - Could cause an allergic reaction and kill them
Water - Could get knocked backwards and hit their head and die. Or choke to death

Lathum · 06-01-2009, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigercat

Making a safer taser would be one positive step. Another step would be not to use ANY weapon unless there is a good possibility of needing self defense or the defense of others. I am sorry, but if a skinny scared looking kid is running away from a non-felony stop, you don't use ANY weapon to make the situation more convenient for you as a police officer.

.

And what if the kid pulled out a gun and shot 2 of the cops dead?

Then everyone would be saying they should have tasered him.

CU Tiger · 06-01-2009, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigercat

running away from a non serious incident is going through something that can inhibit rational though.

Just dont forget the other side of the coin.
Last year a local police officer made a traffic stop for reportedly 62 in a 55, as he approached the car he was shot 2x in the face...as a LEO there is no non-serious offense until the situation is under control. The kid ran threw stuff and was stripping clothes....sounds pretty damn suspicious to me
I am also struck at the quality of parenting, "he tried school but it was tough so we sorta home schooled him"...now we are sorta hoping for a pay day

RainMaker · 06-01-2009, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

And what if the kid pulled out a gun and shot 2 of the cops dead?

Then everyone would be saying they should have tasered him.

What if they had cops capable of subduing a 5'2 110 pound disabled kid?

Lathum · 06-01-2009, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop

Water

Lets outfit all law enforcement with super soakers!

Suburban Rhythm · 06-01-2009, 04:31 PM

I hate not having access at work anymore, because I can't post things like this when they are still fresh:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

He was 'learning disabled'... that could mean almost anything. Dyslexic kids are 'learning disabled' but I'd still expect them to know not to run from cops.

He'd run, just backwards.

Also, being from Pittsburgh, I need to know if this kid was a Red Wings fan before I can judge.

Lathum · 06-01-2009, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

What if they had cops capable of subduing a 5'2 110 pound disabled kid?

dude, you keep coming back to this point and it makes you look like an idiot.

Cops are taught to make assumptions. The assumption is if a kid runs he is running for a reason and the needed steps should be taken.

How do you know the kid didn't put his hand inside his pocket?

The size of the kid is irrelevant.

MrBug708 · 06-01-2009, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

What if they had cops capable of subduing a 5'2 110 pound disabled kid?

What??!?

Tigercat · 06-01-2009, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

And what if the kid pulled out a gun and shot 2 of the cops dead?

Then everyone would be saying they should have tasered him.

Or what if he had a machine gun, killed those two cops, and then killed 30 others? Or maybe a bomb? How far do we go, because, here is my point, a kid runs from a non-felony stop, the other guy stays. What are the odds that he has a gun, and what are the odds that he is just irrationally fearful and not a threat to others?

The cops chose to be in harms way to protect and serve. The irrational kid didn't.

Danny · 06-01-2009, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

dude, you keep coming back to this point and it makes you look like an idiot.

Cops are taught to make assumptions. The assumption is if a kid runs he is running for a reason and the needed steps should be taken.

How do you know the kid didn't put his hand inside his pocket?

The size of the kid is irrelevant.

I have to agree with this, I am pretty sure a 5'2 person is capable of shooting a gun. You can't assume just because someone is small that they are harmless.

JonInMiddleGA · 06-01-2009, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigercat

Maybe that is the necessary reality, but that is just a shame.

It's also a shame that I've known two officers killed in the line of duty when they were simply walking into "non-serious" situations. A "routine" traffic stop in broad daylight and a "routine" summons service on a peaceful Saturday morning.

Both were dead before they had the slightest idea it wasn't routine.

edit to add: Here's the reality. There's no such thing as "non-serious". There's no such thing as "routine".

MrBug708 · 06-01-2009, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigercat

Or what if he had a machine gun, killed those two cops, and then killed 30 others? Or maybe a bomb?

You nailed it. Cops are trained for worst case scenario's, not best case scenario's.

Quote:

How far do we go, because, here is my point, a kid runs from a non-felony stop, the other guy stays. What are the odds that he has a gun, and what are the odds that he is just irrationally fearful and not a threat to others?

You go as far as you can until you are absolutely sure the suspect is not a threat. Assumptions are what gets people killed.

Quote:

The cops chose to be in harms way to protect and serve. The irrational kid didn't.

Wow.

JonInMiddleGA · 06-01-2009, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigercat

The irrational kid didn't.

Yeah, he did, as soon as he took off running.
And his family did, when they chose to drive a car with an expired tag.

All the police did was their job, no matter how many excuses people try to make for the behavior of suspects.

Tigercat · 06-01-2009, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

It's also a shame that I've known two officers killed in the line of duty when they were simply walking into "non-serious" situations. A "routine" traffic stop in broad daylight and a "routine" summons service on a peaceful Saturday morning.

Both were dead before they had the slightest idea it wasn't routine.

edit to add: Here's the reality. There's no such thing as "non-serious". There's no such thing as "routine".

No doubt. I have the utmost respect for police officer as a profession. But that's because they know that is part of the reality when they get into the job. I have more respect for the police officer than I do for the kid running away from the cops. (Not knowing why the kid acted irrational.) But, as a citizen, in this situation I would rather the cop take the personal risk to themself than dish it out. That's what the cop signed up for. I am certainly no expert, but with the safety of tasers as they are, and given what the situation looked like to the cops at the stop, I just wish the cops would have taken the harder risk and subdued him without the use of something as unsafe as a taser.

Suburban Rhythm · 06-01-2009, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigercat

The cops chose to be in harms way to protect and serve. The irrational kid didn't.

Actually, when he ran, he kind of did choose.

RainMaker · 06-01-2009, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lathum

dude, you keep coming back to this point and it makes you look like an idiot.

Cops are taught to make assumptions. The assumption is if a kid runs he is running for a reason and the needed steps should be taken.

How do you know the kid didn't put his hand inside his pocket?

The size of the kid is irrelevant.

Because the kid was "violently resisting arrest" according to the police commissioner. That would assume that he was not sitting in a corner with his hands in his pockets. The officers have also not come out and said he was reaching for a weapon.

If multiple officers can't figure out a way to subdue a 5'2 110 pound disabled kid, then I think the Detroit Police Department has some issues with the kind of physical specimens they are enlisting.

Tigercat · 06-01-2009, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBug708

You go as far as you can until you are absolutely sure the suspect is not a threat. Assumptions are what gets people killed.

And a lack of an assumption got this kid killed. I am not saying the cops should even suspended in my eyes... I am for sure saying, however, that this isn't a "Yes absolutely the police did the right and only thing!" situation as some of you seem to be suggesting.

Tigercat · 06-01-2009, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

Actually, when he ran, he kind of did choose.

Keyword being: irrational. Cops chose for years of training to be in that situation.

stevew · 06-01-2009, 04:47 PM

Why did the tazer kill him?

Cops shouldn't be wrestling criminals, if you can't submit, shut up, and calm the fuck down, tough shit.

MrBug708 · 06-01-2009, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

If multiple officers can't figure out a way to subdue a 5'2 110 pound disabled kid, then I think the Detroit Police Department has some issues with the kind of physical specimens they are enlisting.

They actually did find a way to subdue the 5'2 kid. Of course if they physically subdue him, they probably get accused of police brutality and get fired from their job.

Sucks to be a cop

MrBug708 · 06-01-2009, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigercat

And a lack of an assumption got this kid killed. I am not saying the cops should even suspended in my eyes... I am for sure saying, however, that this isn't a "Yes absolutely the police did the right and only thing!" situation as some of you seem to be suggesting.

Lack of assumption? Does that even make sense? You're telling a cop to start assuming things? Seriously?

Noop · 06-01-2009, 04:50 PM

Quote:

"They ordered him several times not to resist, and he continued to resist," Dwyer said. "They had no alternative to use what they felt at the time was non-lethal force."

This is what confuses me the most, the kid is 5'2 110lbs and they were unable to restrain him.

MrBug708 · 06-01-2009, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigercat

Keyword being: irrational. Cops chose for years of training to be in that situation.

I would say a taser is the best way to handle an irrational person, no? The last thing a person wants to do it rolling on the ground with someone who you even say is clearly irrational.

MrBug708 · 06-01-2009, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop

This is what confuses me the most, the kid is 5'2 110lbs and they were unable to restrain him.

It's a very unclear article. It doesnt say they were on the ground being out-muscled by a 5'2 kid but we (excuse me, Rainmaker) are assuming that they are

Noop · 06-01-2009, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBug708

It's a very unclear article. It doesnt say they were on the ground being out-muscled by a 5'2 kid but we (excuse me, Rainmaker) are assuming that they are

You're right but if they were indeed on the ground (which they shouldn't be in the first place) trying to hold him down I question the fittest of the Detroit police department.

I am 5'11 175lb and I would be able to flip that kid around like a rag doll.

Tigercat · 06-01-2009, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBug708

I would say a taser is the best way to handle an irrational person, no? The last thing a person wants to do it rolling on the ground with someone who you even say is clearly irrational.

Maybe, it may be that he was so out of it that even given his size the cops couldn't get him under control. If that is the case any possible blame should go those who arm the officers with the "non-lethal" weapons. They need a better option, or a better taser.

But while I think that is possible, it seems hard to believe that two cops can't out wrestle even a batshit crazy skinny little kid. But who knows...

RainMaker · 06-01-2009, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBug708

It's a very unclear article. It doesnt say they were on the ground being out-muscled by a 5'2 kid but we (excuse me, Rainmaker) are assuming that they are

http://www.freep.com/article/20090414/NEWS01/90414070/

Police commissioner said he was violently resisting arrest and the officers were trying to protect themselves.

MrBug708 · 06-01-2009, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigercat

Maybe, it may be that he was so out of it that even given his size the cops couldn't get him under control. If that is the case any possible blame should go those who arm the officers with the "non-lethal" weapons. They need a better option, or a better taser.

But while I think that is possible, it seems hard to believe that two cops can't out wrestle even a batshit crazy skinny little kid. But who knows...

Never underestimate an irrational person who doesn't want to get arrested

JonInMiddleGA · 06-01-2009, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigercat

But, as a citizen, in this situation I would rather the cop take the personal risk to themself than dish it out. That's what the cop signed up for.

They don't sign up to die because of some fuck up, they sign up to keep the rest of us from dying at the hands of some fuck up.

What you just typed has to be one of the most disrespectful things to people in uniform I've ever run across. I wouldn't trade one cop's life for a hundred perps who tried to post a bush bond like this kid. And the minute he took off, that's what he became: another perp.

molson · 06-01-2009, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop

You're right but if they were indeed on the ground (which they shouldn't be in the first place) trying to hold him down I question the fittest of the Detroit police department.

I am 5'11 175lb and I would be able to flip that kid around like a rag doll.

But if you were a cop and "flipped that kid around like a rag doll", you'd get fired (and probably a thread about you at FOFC).

It's difficult to restrain somebody who doesn't want to be restrained without injuring him (or yourself).

RainMaker · 06-01-2009, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Never underestimate an irrational person who doesn't want to get arrested

Rational or not, if multiple officers trained in defensive tactics are not able to physically handle a kid that size, it's time to hang up your badge and sell insurance.

MrBug708 · 06-01-2009, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

http://www.freep.com/article/20090414/NEWS01/90414070/

Police commissioner said he was violently resisting arrest and the officers were trying to protect themselves.

Why use an article that is clearly inaccurate? You've been using 5'2 110 for about 10 posts in this thread and that article describes the kid as being 125.

So what is the violently resisting part? What was he doing to the officers? Biting? Kicking? Throwing his body all over the place?

MrBug708 · 06-01-2009, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Rational or not, if multiple officers trained in defensive tactics are not able to physically handle a kid that size, it's time to hang up your badge and sell insurance.

And when they had broken the kids arm, you'd be in this thread talking about how they should have just tasered him. You just assume that the officers couldn't stop the kid because they weren't "physically capable"

Lathum · 06-01-2009, 05:02 PM

What if the kid was trying to bite the cops? Would they be justified then?

molson · 06-01-2009, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Rational or not, if multiple officers trained in defensive tactics are not able to physically handle a kid that size, it's time to hang up your badge and sell insurance.

You're making this assumption that "physically handling" somebody is preferrable to a taser. That's an incorrect assumption, regardless of the tragic result in this particular case.

Noop · 06-01-2009, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson

But if you were a cop and "flipped that kid around like a rag doll", you'd get fired (and probably a thread about you at FOFC).

It's difficult to restrain somebody who doesn't want to be restrained without injuring him (or yourself).

Two people against a skinny kid? I question the fitness of those police officers.

RainMaker · 06-01-2009, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Why use an article that is clearly inaccurate? You've been using 5'2 110 for about 10 posts in this thread and that article describes the kid as being 125.

So what is the violently resisting part? What was he doing to the officers? Biting? Kicking? Throwing his body all over the place?

Some reported 110 pounds, some 125 pounds. Honestly at that size, I don't think it makes much of a difference. The Free Press has a pretty good reputation in the city and the quote has been used by tons of other media sources.

I don't know what violently resisting arrest is. There's only so much a kid that size can physically do.

molson · 06-01-2009, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBug708

And when they had broken the kids arm, you'd be in this thread talking about how they should have just tasered him.

Yup

molson · 06-01-2009, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop

Two people against a skinny kid? I question the fitness of those police officers.

They could have beat the shit out of him easily, if that was their goal.

It's a little trickier of a fight if you know you'll get fired for injuring him. It's not exactly a pure 2-on-1 brawl.

MrBug708 · 06-01-2009, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop

Two people against a skinny kid? I question the fitness of those police officers.

Why are we suddenly assuming they couldn't kick the shit out of the kid? I'm pretty sure they can, but then it would just turn into a racial issue saying they were using excessive force and why couldn't they have just tasered him?

Lathum · 06-01-2009, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tigercat

I would rather the cop take the personal risk to themself than dish it out. That's what the cop signed up for.

This statement is beyond mind numbing.

Your saying the police officers should put themselves at risk over the criminal who fled from a traffic stop and is resisting arrest?

MrBug708 · 06-01-2009, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't know what violently resisting arrest is. There's only so much a kid that size can physically do.

Size has nothing to do with it. Why can't you understand that?

Lathum · 06-01-2009, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

There's only so much a kid that size can physically do.

Biting them and spitting on them are 2 things, and how do the cops know he doesn't have hepatitis or swine flu?

RainMaker · 06-01-2009, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Size has nothing to do with it. Why can't you understand that?

Yeah, they just seperate people into weight classes in wrestling, MMA, and boxing for fun. Not because size has any physical advantages in a fight.

MrBug708 · 06-01-2009, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Yeah, they just seperate people into weight classes in wrestling, MMA, and boxing for fun. Not because size has any physical advantages in a fight.

It has nothing to do with the physicality of the fight. It has to do with officer safety.

*sigh* I've come to the realization that you are being obtuse on purpose.

molson · 06-01-2009, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Yeah, they just seperate people into weight classes in wrestling, MMA, and boxing for fun. Not because size has any physical advantages in a fight.

it wasn't a fight.

Lathum · 06-01-2009, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Yeah, they just seperate people into weight classes in wrestling, MMA, and boxing for fun. Not because size has any physical advantages in a fight.

jesus

RainMaker · 06-01-2009, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBug708

It has nothing to do with the physicality of the fight. It has to do with officer safety.

*sigh* I've come to the realization that you are being obtuse on purpose.

Like I said, if a kid that small is posing a risk to your safety in a phsyical alteration, it's time to hang up the badge and sell homes or something. You aren't cut out for the job.

06-01-2009, 04:47 PM	#121
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	Why did the tazer kill him? Cops shouldn't be wrestling criminals, if you can't submit, shut up, and calm the fuck down, tough shit.

06-01-2009, 05:02 PM	#136
Lathum Favored Bitch #1 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: homeless in NJ	What if the kid was trying to bite the cops? Would they be justified then?

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