I Have Been Saved

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by panerd

A serious question to the strong believers... Do you really like the fact that is so much harder to question religion than just about any other topic? If I were a strong believer I would welcome the challenge and be sad that my faith is always treated with some kid gloves by everybody when there is so many interesting and debatable ideas.

You know, it's funny, but I guess it all depends on perspective. As a believer, I sometimes feel that the only religion one can make fun of is Christianity. I mean, it's poked fun of quite often (just see the pic of the tiny Jesus statue on the bookcase earlier in the thread). Did I scream vengeance and hellfire when I saw that? No. I didn't see anyone else, either. Go figure.

I'm always up for a discussion on God and faith. You can ridicule me until the cows come home - it certainly comes with the territory. I will tell you one thing - the answers I give you probably won't smack you upside the head and cause you to believe. Belief in God is based on faith and faith inherently can't be proven or disproven. So, while I probably won't be able to convince you in any kind of debate, my hope would be only to make you think and realize that maybe God's message is a worthy one.

I'll also caveat with - I'm no theologian or Biblical scholar (though I do read it) - and there are others on here that probably know a lot more about the details than I do.

Also, if others have problems with this on the board, you can certainly PM me and we can "talk" there.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Everyone who takes issue with religion needs to take a step back and realize it's not Jesus or God that they have the problem with, it's the people. Inherently, we are human - we get selfish, we like to be told how wonderful we are, we get greedy, etc. The problem is - once you have religious organization you, by default, have the human element and, again, the human element has fault.

Very true that it's not Jesus or God that I have a problem with. The definition of religion extends far beyond Christianity.

Finally, because you heard about some church that protests against a dead soldier, or overheard someone say that all wars are because of religion, or read about some priest who got arrested for molestation - don't confuse that with what Jesus is all about, and don't use that as an excuse for not getting to know Him.

I agree that the actions of a minority shouldn't neccessarily reflect badly on the group as a whole, but that's certainly not my reason for not getting to know "Him" or somebody Else - whatever that even means.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by panerd

Sadly as big of ass as the guy who called him a moron was had he called anyone a fucking moron in any other thread he would not have been placed in the penalty box. But since it involved Jesus Christ it was a given about what was on the way.

I had the same feeling. I agree that the comment probably violated tenets of civility, which are grounds for penalty on this board. But, with that being said, incivility is only inconsistently punished. I would agree that he would be less likely to have been boxed if his comments were made in most any other thread.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

I had the same feeling. I agree that the comment probably violated tenets of civility, which are grounds for penalty on this board. But, with that being said, incivility is only inconsistently punished. I would agree that he would be less likely to have been boxed if his comments were made in most any other thread.

+2

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by panerd

Sadly as big of ass as the guy who called him a moron was had he called anyone a fucking moron in any other thread he would not have been placed in the penalty box.

This has nothing to do with my affiliation, but I have always thought that somebody who is immature and trollish enough to simply call someone a "fucking moron" and then leave without any other comment deserves a boxing, and that includes anyone who is a known FOFCer. How is something that stupid and brutal not trollish and boxable?

Eh, anyway.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

I agree with the latter paragraph of your post. As to your first paragraph, we probably wouldn't celebrate someone believing in unicorns, Santa Claus, etc....but I think the big difference there is that for the most part, we know that Christians have a good overall moral foundation. The same cannot be said for those who believe in the Tooth Fairy. In that respect, I think it's okay to tell someone good for you since you'll hopefully be a better person for society based upon our overall understanding of Christianity. Note I said overall, not every little thing.

I'm not sure what your second paragraph really means. If he's found peace within himself, even if it's a false peace, that's good right? The only downside I see is that if it is a peace based upon flawed principles then the fall could be much greater. That being said, I don't think we can disprove the existence of a God. There's a possibility they're right; I believe it is not probable, but there is still the possibility.

I don't think that's necessarily true. Christians make up the overwhelming majority of people in the U.S. prison system. You can look back to such times as the Inquisitions or Crusades. How people who dared to even question the Church were hung or burned. Red states, which have the highest concentration of evangelicals have higher crime per capita as well as teen pregnancies.

This isn't to say that other religions or non-religions don't have criminals and immoral people. In fact they have have quite a few. But what I'm saying is that I don't consider someone who is a Christian "morally" superior than someone who isn't. I also think morals are something personal. A Christian may believe it's immoral to masturbate. I for one think it's natural.

There's also a possibility that there is a giant flying turd in the Andromeda galaxy that is undetectable to our technology that secretly control the movements of everyone on this planet. You can't prove it's not there, so there is a possibility it exists. But that possibility is incredibly miniscule. I prefer to deal in facts. When there is evidence of a God, I'll be the first one to admit it's there.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

This has nothing to do with my affiliation, but I have always thought that somebody who is immature and trollish enough to simply call someone a "fucking moron" and then leave without any other comment deserves a boxing, and that includes anyone who is a known FOFCer. How is something that stupid and brutal not trollish and boxable?

Eh, anyway.

I don't disagree with you, but the point stands that we've all seen it happen in many other threads without it leading to a boxing.

[Greyroofoo]

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

somebody who is immature and trollish enough to ...blahblahblah...and then leave without any other comment deserves a boxing

like tarcone, who gave birth to this bitchfest and hasn't commented since post #1, despite repeated requests to elaborate on his 'extreme whoring'. i'd be disappointed if he wasn't being literal and in fact did not participate in any extreme whoring in his life.

other working theory: (1) his wife caught him cheating (2) he makes post #1 (3) he makes sure his wife sees the post to get her off his back

[MJ4H]

Did you seriously just equate tarcone saying he was saved with SCwhatever calling him a fucking retard?

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

I would bet Jesus has Evasion. He wouldn't take any damage.

[JediKooter]

Christians definitely don't have it easy...

[flounder]

Why is Pacman eating the Jews?

[Groundhog]

I always had my suspicions that Pacman was an anti-semite.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't think that's necessarily true. Christians make up the overwhelming majority of people in the U.S. prison system. You can look back to such times as the Inquisitions or Crusades. How people who dared to even question the Church were hung or burned. Red states, which have the highest concentration of evangelicals have higher crime per capita as well as teen pregnancies.

This isn't to say that other religions or non-religions don't have criminals and immoral people. In fact they have have quite a few. But what I'm saying is that I don't consider someone who is a Christian "morally" superior than someone who isn't. I also think morals are something personal. A Christian may believe it's immoral to masturbate. I for one think it's natural.

There's also a possibility that there is a giant flying turd in the Andromeda galaxy that is undetectable to our technology that secretly control the movements of everyone on this planet. You can't prove it's not there, so there is a possibility it exists. But that possibility is incredibly miniscule. I prefer to deal in facts. When there is evidence of a God, I'll be the first one to admit it's there.

Okay. I think we're saying the same thing. Note that I said that Christians have a good OVERALL moral background. I'm sure you can point out the times that Christians have done wrong....however, I think that they've also done a lot of good in the world as well. The same cannot be said for the Tooth Fairy's worshippers who do things based on the Tooth Fairy's tenets.

Do you not recognize the difference? On the one hand you have people who have a set of beliefs that are ostensibly based on the Ten Commandments, which are a pretty good set of rules to follow. On the other hand, we don't know what the moral values of the Tooth Fairy or unicorns are. I was illustrating the difference when people congratulate someone for "finding God" versus (as you said) finding unicorns, the Tooth Fairy, or Santa Claus.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by MJ4H

Did you seriously just equate tarcone saying he was saved with SCwhatever calling him a fucking retard?

not particularly serious.

[ISiddiqui]

Ya, learn to take a joke there, jeez... I'm surprised anyone took that seriously.

[WSUCougar]

Originally Posted by panerd

Sadly as big of ass as the guy who called him a moron was had he called anyone a fucking moron in any other thread he would not have been placed in the penalty box.

For what it's worth, I take things like that both at face value and in context. In this case it was so utterly uncalled for and over the line that it was an instantaneous decision. Religion had less to do with it than someone intruding on a "happy" thread and attacking the poster for no apparent reason other than to be mean-spirited. Pure trolling. Case closed.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

For what it's worth, I take things like that both at face value and in context. In this case it was so utterly uncalled for and over the line that it was an instantaneous decision. Religion had less to do with it than someone intruding on a "happy" thread and attacking the poster for no apparent reason other than to be mean-spirited. Pure trolling. Case closed.

But what makes it a happy thread? If tarcone makes the exact same post, but instead commits his faith to the Tooth Fairy or the Washington Redskins or the leftover chocolate cake in his fridge, SCgoatman probably doesn't get boxed.

I believe your reason, WSU. But I think the thread seemed so "happy" because it was filled with (mostly) other Christians congratulating tarcone for his decision, a self-serving support if well-meant, and the point that was made that this would not happen in other contexts is correct. SCgoatman is in the box because he challenged the groupthink of Christianity in a vulgar manner.

[NoMyths]

What's wonderful about this thread is that if there is a God he can clearly delineate between the folks who seem to have a moral center and those he'd burn or turn to salt.

I'm undoubtedly in the salt category, but I understand the fretting. There was a time most of this thread wouldn't have been muttered in serious adult company.

It's hard enough to be happy. Tarcone, if believing in God gives you hope and strength, good wishes. Zeus knows the bitterest here would love to have that kind of certainty.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

I had the same feeling. I agree that the comment probably violated tenets of civility, which are grounds for penalty on this board. But, with that being said, incivility is only inconsistently punished. I would agree that he would be less likely to have been boxed if his comments were made in most any other thread.

we all know there are different rules for different posters around here.

That being said I think Scgoatman should just be banned, he doesn't really add anything to the community

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Lathum

we all know there are different rules for different posters around here.

That being said I think Scgoatman should just be banned, he doesn't really add anything to the community

[DrAFTjunkie]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Okay, I gotta know. What'd he do with the grenade?

He never used it, and have never asked him about it. He (being half latino) was afiliated with well know local latino gang and had planned on using it if the shit ever hit the fan with thier rivals. Hell, I wanna know now...I'll ask him next time our kids have a playdate. He's far less touchy about his past now.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Perhaps it is, but it may also be about rooting out myths from society. Would we celebrate someone coming on this board and saying they believe in unicorns and fire breathing dragons? How about Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy? Probably not.

I don't think those are fair comparisons. Christianity is a well-established, complex belief structure in a way that unicorns, fire breathing dragons, Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy are not. And I speak as someone who's not a big fan of organized religion in general.

And just because something helps someone find peace doesn't mean it's right. A labotomy could have the same effect on someone in finding peace. I certainly wouldn't recommend it to anyone I know.

A lobotomy is an extreme example, though. There are many ways for someone to find peace, and while I think we'd generally take issue with those that have clearly detrimental side effects (i.e. a lobotomy), I'm not convinced tarcone suddenly believing in Christ has a clear, demonstrable, and guaranteed downside. That's what makes it different. Perhaps an obvious negative example would be if he suddenly declared he was going to be a Scientologist.

Originally Posted by panerd

Sadly as big of ass as the guy who called him a moron was had he called anyone a fucking moron in any other thread he would not have been placed in the penalty box.

I don't know. I think it's all about context. Usually around here we call each other fucking morons either a) in the midst of a long-standing debate that's gotten abrasive and where common principles are not shared (i.e. politics debates, but also plenty of sports ones) or b) as good-natured abuse. I don't think it's particularly common around here for someone to come completely out of left field and call someone else a fucking moron with absolutely no preamble.

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

For what it's worth, I take things like that both at face value and in context.

Ah so.

[EagleFan]

Saw him on a plane the other day, or maybe it was Elvis...

[lungs]

Instead of the tooth fairy or something like that, what if he announced his conversion to Islam? Would that change reactions from some?

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Lathum

we all know there are different rules for different posters around here.

Of course, I think we've all accepted that. It is what it is.

That said, nothing wrong with calling the practice out, if we find issue with it...

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

But what makes it a happy thread? If tarcone makes the exact same post, but instead commits his faith to the Tooth Fairy or the Washington Redskins or the leftover chocolate cake in his fridge, SCgoatman probably doesn't get boxed.

I believe your reason, WSU. But I think the thread seemed so "happy" because it was filled with (mostly) other Christians congratulating tarcone for his decision, a self-serving support if well-meant, and the point that was made that this would not happen in other contexts is correct. SCgoatman is in the box because he challenged the groupthink of Christianity in a vulgar manner.

I don't completely agree, I am fairly religious but I also frequently debate the merits of religion and things the bible says with others from a scientific standpoint. I guess my stance would be somewhere around middle ground, somewhat skeptical, but open minded in that I enjoy going to church and I always take something out if it. Faith to me is important, no matter how it is manifested, again as long as it does not hurt, or intrude on others.

In regards to your examples, if someone posted any of them it most likely would have been as some kind or parody and solicited a like reaction, which most likely would not have been anywhere as near mean spirited and if it was would likely have been in a TIC context.

Since religion is a lot more serious to some people than Chocolate Cake, the Redskins or the Tooth Fairy, a better comparison may have been if someone had posted about the joy they have found in being a new parent or getting engaged or seeing their child graduate from college. If someone had just come out of left field and called them a fucking retard with no provocation, then the exact same thing that happened to SCgoatman, would have and should have happened to them.

I was not offended at all he attacked religion, because I really don't care and have thick skin. I was offended he attacked someone who made life altering changes, was happy about it and just felt the desire to express that to a community he belongs and probably considers several others friends. There are also plenty of non-believers in the thread, who expressed their stance in an articulate, respectful manner and yet still wished Tarcone well. To me that they desereve respect for that, because they gave respect, even if they think religion is a joke.

All in all, it's just not a big deal however you find happiness as long as it is not harmful to those around you. Live and let live and if you can't be anything but intentionally over the top malicious then consider just moving along.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I don't think those are fair comparisons. Christianity is a well-established, complex belief structure in a way that unicorns, fire breathing dragons, Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy are not. And I speak as someone who's not a big fan of organized religion in general.

They were used in an off the cuff manner by people for amusements value imho - if you want more serious figures then consider failed (ie. out of use) religions, any from the medieval times would suffice to give you what was a well established, complex belief structure that is accepted today as no more 'real' than faries or Santa.

I'm not convinced tarcone suddenly believing in Christ has a clear, demonstrable, and guaranteed downside. That's what makes it different. Perhaps an obvious negative example would be if he suddenly declared he was going to be a Scientologist.

I've seen negative aspects to Christianity in some believers - normally this equates to them doing nothing to improve their situation because its 'Gods will' or equating everything bad to the work of the devil and everything good to 'God' rather than accepting that they have free will and can influence things themselves.

(please note these aren't criticism of Christianity itself (and indeed can be applied to all relgiions) - just comments on mankind when given a handy excuse to lean upon)

[AENeuman]

Since this thread, for the most part, has been positive and thoughtful, I thought this might be the place to ask a few questions that have been rolling around in my head recently....

Originally Posted by tarcone

I pray for everyone on this board to find Jesus Christ. Hell is a terrible alternative.

I've always been curious about this sentiment. If a believer that believes (to some degree) in order to prevent and/or gain something (eternal reward) the same as a believer with no expectation (worthiness) of reward?

What other, if any, function does the Jesus story serve other than the way to decide ones eternal fate? If so, how important are the other functions compared to eternal fate? Are they dependent upon believing in eternal rewards?

Thanks.

[Marc Vaughan]

I've always been curious about this sentiment. If a believer that believes (to some degree) in order to prevent and/or gain something (eternal reward) the same as a believer with no expectation (worthiness) of reward?

As I understand it Christians are meant to fear God (as well as love him) and its seen as perfectly acceptable to become a Christian out of fear - indeed a lot of churches do big 'end-times' promotions for just this reason.

(similarly many are presently encouraging non-believers to God through fear of job loss etc.)

Its always been one of my big problems with 'organised religion' along with the rather obvious .... if the word of God is so inspiring why is church so bleeding boring (and yeah I've been to a big range of churches from traditional to happy clappy).

PS - But anyway congrats for being saved, I hope it brings you much success and happiness in life - I really don't want to turn this into a religious debate thread ... apologies for taking it off course.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by tarcone

I pray for everyone on this board to find Jesus Christ. Hell is a terrible alternative.

I pray for everyone on this board to open a Biology book.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I pray for everyone on this board to open a Biology book.

Thats not entirely a workable analogy though RM. Biology and Philoshophy have very little in common.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

But what makes it a happy thread? If tarcone makes the exact same post, but instead commits his faith to the Tooth Fairy or the Washington Redskins or the leftover chocolate cake in his fridge, SCgoatman probably doesn't get boxed.

I believe your reason, WSU. But I think the thread seemed so "happy" because it was filled with (mostly) other Christians congratulating tarcone for his decision, a self-serving support if well-meant, and the point that was made that this would not happen in other contexts is correct. SCgoatman is in the box because he challenged the groupthink of Christianity in a vulgar manner.

I think what cougar is trying to explain is that he was boxed for trolling, specific over the top trolling. It wasn't based on the thread topic at all.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Saw him on a plane the other day, or maybe it was Elvis...

Elvis isn't dead, he just went home.

[Kodos]

I have trouble respecting a God who tries to gain followers through fear. I'd have an easier time with one who says "Come with me if you'd like to" than one who says "Come with me or else".

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Kodos

I have trouble respecting a God who tries to gain followers through fear. I'd have an easier time with one who says "Come with me" than one who says "Come with me or else".

Its one of the greatest fallacies of any "God's love" based faith.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Its one of the greatest fallacies of any "God's love" based faith.

Not sure I understand why.

According to the Bible, God gave the world to humanity. Humanity screwed up by sinning, and we are all born with it. Sin is an affront to God's perfection and is punishable by death. Even so, God loves us and sent his Son to die for us. Now, all we have to do is accept this through faith.

Sounds like He digs us a lot.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by Kodos

I have trouble respecting a God who tries to gain followers through fear. I'd have an easier time with one who says "Come with me if you'd like to" than one who says "Come with me or else".

I wouldn't say God is trying to gain followers through fear. That's kind of what Marc said - though I'm sure there are probably churches out there that go about such things.

And, in a way, God IS saying, "Come with me if you'd like to." He's offering you the choice, and it sounds like you made it. I mean, if He really wanted to He could surely do much more than write a book and leave the choice in your hands, couldn't He?

[DrAFTjunkie]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Elvis isn't dead, he just went home.

In a series of books I've been reading (the Sookie Stackhouse Chronicles by Charlaine Harris) Elvis is actually a vampire, which she uses to explain the mysterious sightings. Great books BTW, much better than the Tru Blood adaptation on HBO.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

I wouldn't say God is trying to gain followers through fear. That's kind of what Marc said - though I'm sure there are probably churches out there that go about such things.

And, in a way, God IS saying, "Come with me if you'd like to." He's offering you the choice, and it sounds like you made it. I mean, if He really wanted to He could surely do much more than write a book and leave the choice in your hands, couldn't He?

No, what God is saying is, "Believe in this book, even though its contents go against nearly every widely regarded scientific fact known to man. If you don't believe it you will go to Hell."

Yes, if there were really a God, he could do a Hell of a lot better at letting us understand how this all fits together, but most of the Bible sounds a lot more like Apollo pulling the sun across the sky in his chariot than anything based in reality as we are able to perceive it using the senses "God" gave us.

[boberot]

There was an ironclad inevitability about the direction this thread turned. There are dozens of religious ideology threads floating around here. I suppose I am naive and idealistic, but can't one take five seconds to surmise the intent of this thread and either say "Cool, man, great for you" or just move on? The thread isn't called, "I've been saved, let's discuss your thoughts on God AGAIN."

The whole point is that Tarcone has made a profound change in his life. He feels his life is much better and he wanted to share that with the community.

If the thread was called "I gave up crack and got a full-time job" or "I feel great since I started studying Buddhism and running 5 miles a day" or "My life is terrific since I became a vegan and started receiving treatment for depressions" I'd like to think it would not invite the same flurry of scrutiny and dismissive responses.

Anyway . . . .

[Kodos]

I also have trouble with a merciful god condemning folks to hell for eternity based on a very finite lifespan. Seems to me that mercy would be to let nonbelievers just die, rather than torturing them for all of time.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by boberot

There was an ironclad inevitability about the direction this thread turned. There are dozens of religious ideology threads floating around here. I suppose I am naive and idealistic, but can't one take five seconds to surmise the intent of this thread and either say "Cool, man, great for you" or just move on? The thread isn't called, "I've been saved, let's discuss your thoughts on God AGAIN."

The whole point is that Tarcone has made a profound change in his life. He feels his life is much better and he wanted to share that with the community.

If the thread was called "I gave up crack and got a full-time job" or "I feel great since I started studying Buddhism and running 5 miles a day" or "My life is terrific since I became a vegan and started receiving treatment for depressions" I'd like to think it would not invite the same flurry of scrutiny and dismissive responses.

Anyway . . . .

Saying "hell is a terrible alternative" was pretty much an invitation for people to debate the merits of religious belief. IMO.

[BrianD]

I'd be curious to hear about the process from going from not being saved to being saved. When you hear people talk about out, they always talk as if a light switch got flipped and enlightenment happened. Is this really how it works? Does something just "click" and everything makes sense? Or is this a longer process of just deciding to believe and noticing later that life has gotten so much better?

I'm the type of person that is spiritual but not necessarily religious, and I'd love to hear how people made that change.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by boberot

There was an ironclad inevitability about the direction this thread turned. There are dozens of religious ideology threads floating around here. I suppose I am naive and idealistic, but can't one take five seconds to surmise the intent of this thread and either say "Cool, man, great for you" or just move on? The thread isn't called, "I've been saved, let's discuss your thoughts on God AGAIN."

The whole point is that Tarcone has made a profound change in his life. He feels his life is much better and he wanted to share that with the community.

If the thread was called "I gave up crack and got a full-time job" or "I feel great since I started studying Buddhism and running 5 miles a day" or "My life is terrific since I became a vegan and started receiving treatment for depressions" I'd like to think it would not invite the same flurry of scrutiny and dismissive responses.

Anyway . . . .

Well, the part that always gets my hackles up about conversations/threads like this are statements where people basically tell me I'm going to hell.

Originally Posted by tarcone

I pray for everyone on this board to find Jesus Christ. Hell is a terrible alternative.

That kind of stuff makes my blood boil.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by KWhit

Well, the part that always gets my hackles up about conversations/threads like this are statements where people basically tell me I'm going to hell.



That kind of stuff makes my blood boil.

call him a fucking retard and lets see what happens.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Lathum

call him a fucking retard and lets see what happens.

Heh. Nah. I don't think he's a fucking retard. Just misguided and gullible.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by KWhit

Well, the part that always gets my hackles up about conversations/threads like this are statements where people basically tell me I'm going to hell.



That kind of stuff makes my blood boil.

Why? It's all make-believe anyway, right? So, you infer you're going to a place that doesn't exist. What's the big deal?

[LloydLungs]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Saying "hell is a terrible alternative" was pretty much an invitation for people to debate the merits of religious belief. IMO.

Yes, actually... given that the original poster announced that a decent chunk of this board and a huge chunk of the world's population is going to hell, the fact that there has been only ONE extremely hostile comment in 145+ responses speaks extremely well for FOFC. If all that results is some religious debate, color me impressed. Try taking that sentiment elsewhere on the net and see what it gets you.