BART Shooting

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

It is hard for me to give much of an opinion on this. Can you detail the scholarships a little more so I can look into this and see what I think about it?

Go on any scholarship search engine. You can literally find thousands of scholarships that are for minorities only. I did a term paper on the reverse discrimination in higher education. I wasn't able to find any scholarships where one of the requirements was that you had to be white. There were two that were worth $500 (essentially a book scholarship) that faced such heavy criticism that they are no longer offered. These scholarships for minorities sometimes are worth an entire college tuition.

Here's one scholarship search site. hxxps://www.collegedata.com/cs/search/scholar/scholar_search_tmpl.jhtml

You can see where you can select your ethnicity or heritage. There is no white option. However, if you click on Black/African-American and say you're a male and from Illinois. 263 scholarships show up. That's one scholarship site that I googled and searched in about a minute. For my paper I went to I think 8 different scholarship search sites and it was the same thing.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Noop

How do you know he was a thug?

The initial police response was to youths fighting on a train, he was part of the group that was removed from the train. You're are definitely free to assume that he was an innocent bystander, I find that to be unlikely.

The fact people are rioting doesn't change the fact he was killed in cold blood.

It doesn't change the fact he was killed. It does greatly impact my ability to be remotely as upset about that death as I am disgusted by the fact that the subsequent mob wasn't napalmed into an unrecognizable ash heap.

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by Noop

That's a two way street... more often then not blacks aren't on the receiving end of benefits.

Do you feel that it is right for someone to be denied an opportunity because of the color of their skin?

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

You can see where you can select your ethnicity or heritage. There is no white option. However, if you click on Black/African-American and say you're a male and from Illinois. 263 scholarships show up. That's one scholarship site that I googled and searched in about a minute. For my paper I went to I think 8 different scholarship search sites and it was the same thing.

I don't like it.

However, given that somebody in this thread already stated that minorities are incarcerated at higher rates than whites because of their level of education, it is clear why these kinds of things are needed.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

The initial police response was to youths fighting on a train, he was part of the group that was removed from the train. You're are definitely free to assume that he was an innocent bystander, I find that to be unlikely.



It doesn't change the fact he was killed. It does greatly impact my ability to be remotely as upset about that death as I am disgusted by the fact that the subsequent mob wasn't napalmed into an unrecognizable ash heap.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Noop

Either way it goes the black guy would be in custody no question about it and that's not even giving a bias POV. Also there is a history within the black community of suffering police brutality, I can not say the same is true in the white community.

This is in no way my personal opinion, but maybe black people are treated this way because people see them rioting and destroying things, which gives the perception of a "dangerous and uneducated" group?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

Do you feel that it is right for someone to be denied an opportunity because of the color of their skin?

Only if they're white.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

It doesn't change the fact he was killed. It does greatly impact my ability to be remotely as upset about that death as I am disgusted by the fact that the subsequent mob wasn't napalmed into an unrecognizable ash heap.

Cool. Let's kill more people. How many should die?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Noop

Wag if you like, but you'll never have anyone be more honest with you than I just was.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Lathum

This is in no way my personal opinion, but maybe black people are treated this way because people see them rioting and destroying things, which gives the perception of a "dangerous and uneducated" group?

Not sure that white people need a riot in 2009 in response to an incident like this to hold such an opinion. That sad view of minorities has been around for longer than this nation has existed.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

Cool. Let's kill more people. How many should die?

We could start with that particular mob, the rest we'll just take on a case by case basis m'kay.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

Do you feel that it is right for someone to be denied an opportunity because of the color of their skin?

No. That's why I dislike people like Al Sharpton and his elk for stopping people from giving scholarships to white only students. I am not a fan of affirmative action either although I know why it exists. You should be entitled to a scholarship if you meet the criteria set forth by the people giving it away. If someone wants to make a white only scholarship then that is their right and no one should or can complain. You got the shaft in that situation and the guys who threaten you are stupid assholes and ignorant.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Wag if you like, but you'll never have anyone be more honest with you than I just was.

You want honest? If they were white you wouldn't say that shit.

[Bad-example]

If the cop were black and the victim white, I have no trouble believing the events following would be no different, except the riot wouldn't have happened and this thread wouldn't exist.

[st.cronin]

People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along? Can we stop making it, making it horrible for the older people and the kids?...It’s just not right. It’s not right. It’s not, it’s not going to change anything. We’ll, we’ll get our justice....Please, we can get along here. We all can get along. I mean, we’re all stuck here for a while. Let’s try to work it out. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to work it out.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Lathum

This is in no way my personal opinion, but maybe black people are treated this way because people see them rioting and destroying things, which gives the perception of a "dangerous and uneducated" group?

That's what is portrayed but I know its not true. It will take time to overcome those perceptions which exist throughout the world as well. (That's my observation at least)

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

As of June 30, 2007, the incarceration rate in state or federal prison or jail for men was 1,406 per 100,000 residents, for women 136 per 100,000 residents. The rate for white men was 773 per 100,000, for black men 4,618 per 100,000, for Hispanic men 1,747 per 100,000. The rate for white women was 95 per 100,000, for black women 348 per 100,000, and for Hispanic women 146 per 100,000.
Source:
Sabol, William J., PhD, Couture, Heather, Bureau of Justice Statistics, Prison Inmates at Midyear 2007 (Washington, DC: US Department of Justice, June 2008), NCJ221944, p. 7, Table 10.

The data would seem to indicate that minorities are more likely to be incarcerated than whites.

At least where I live, it is because minorities commit more of the crimes. I've seen more crimes commited by minorities in my area than by whites. Most of the crimes I have seen commited have been assaults. In my neighborhood, most of the break-ins are by minority kids (both hispanic and black). Look at the crime demographics and most of it is in the minority areas.

I think the problem is not race, the problem is class and upbringing. I know plenty of minorities here that have not done anything wrong, but most of those came from stable homes.

Originally Posted by Tekneek

Did I say it was because of their race? No. I merely shared some data.

No, you just said that minorities are more likely to be incarcerated than whites. Which wouldn't need to be mentioned unless you were saying it was about race.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Bad-example

If the cop were black and the victim white, I have no trouble believing the events following would be no different, except the riot wouldn't have happened and this thread wouldn't exist.

If the cop was black and did it I would hope he is put on death row as well. The riot wouldn't have happened but if he was allowed to walk away then a protest and a few letters to the mayor would have made sure his ass was in jail by sundown.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Noop

You want honest? If they were white you wouldn't say that shit.

Seems likely you'd be surprised.

Off the top of my head I'm pretty sure I clearly advocated the same response to, just for one example, the virtually all white protesters at the economic summit in the northwest a few years back.

[Bad-example]

Originally Posted by Noop

No. That's why I dislike people like Al Sharpton and his elk...

Dump on Big Al if you want, but the poor elk doesn't deserve it.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

Go on any scholarship search engine. You can literally find thousands of scholarships that are for minorities only. I did a term paper on the reverse discrimination in higher education. I wasn't able to find any scholarships where one of the requirements was that you had to be white. There were two that were worth $500 (essentially a book scholarship) that faced such heavy criticism that they are no longer offered. These scholarships for minorities sometimes are worth an entire college tuition.

Here's one scholarship search site. hxxps://www.collegedata.com/cs/search/scholar/scholar_search_tmpl.jhtml

You can see where you can select your ethnicity or heritage. There is no white option. However, if you click on Black/African-American and say you're a male and from Illinois. 263 scholarships show up. That's one scholarship site that I googled and searched in about a minute. For my paper I went to I think 8 different scholarship search sites and it was the same thing.

Look at it this way. When this country finally got around to giving blacks equal rights in this country, they had no money, no business, no land, and no education. They were thrust into a world with severe disadvantages that they still face today. It's like going into a football game, spotting the other team 40 points and expecting the other team to compete.

So is it really horrible that they make specific scholarships for minorities so that they may have a chance to catch up?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along?

Nope.

Thanks for playing though.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

No, you just said that minorities are more likely to be incarcerated than whites. Which wouldn't need to be mentioned unless you were saying it was about race.

I said the rate is certainly higher, making it more likely. Are you questioning the data?

[Noop]

Warhammer I wrote a paper where I argued that racism is stupid and that black and white people have alot in common with each other(class wise) then they do with the rich or power elite.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Seems likely you'd be surprised.

Off the top of my head I'm pretty sure I clearly advocated the same response to, just for one example, the virtually all white protesters at the economic summit in the northwest a few years back.

Jon you maybe right... but the impression I get seems to be opposite.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Lathum

This is in no way my personal opinion, but maybe black people are treated this way because people see them rioting and destroying things, which gives the perception of a "dangerous and uneducated" group?

One man's riot is another man's Boston Tea Party. It's all a matter of how you perceive the events and how they affect you.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

One man's riot is another man's Boston Tea Party. It's all a matter of how you perceive the events and how they affect you.

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So is it really horrible that they make specific scholarships for minorities so that they may have a chance to catch up?

Yes. It's exactly what everyone preaches against. It's denying someone an equal opportunity at a benefit because of the color of their skin. Two wrongs do not make a right.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

One man's riot is another man's Boston Tea Party. It's all a matter of how you perceive the events and how they affect you.

Unless I'm mistaken, the only thing damaged in the boston tea party was the tea and one lock.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by Lathum

This is in no way my personal opinion, but maybe black people are treated this way because people see them rioting and destroying things, which gives the perception of a "dangerous and uneducated" group?

Quite honestly, in my area, this goes a long way towards perpetuating things. Everytime there is a huge fight at a school, its at the minority schools in the area. Probably 90% of the weapons at school incidents are at the minority schools or concern minority students.

There was an incident here last year where something like 8 people were killed in a house. It was the result of a guy having an argument with his brother over a coat (could be wrong about the coat, but I think that was what it was about). Guy comes back with a gun, shoots his brother, and then kills the rest of the people in the house because they were witnesses, this included something like 4 kids.

You have incidents like that in an area, and at some point, it goes from being anecdotes, to a trend, to a belief in the way people act. I'm not saying this is right, but this is exactly how perceptions are made.

The fact of the matter is that there are some universal truths out there that are true regardless of other factors. Murder, malicious intent, hurting people for the sake of hurting people, are all things that are wrong. I don't care what your background is, what your family situation is, you treat people the way you want to be treated. You want respect, give respect. You want love, you give love. You want understanding, understand.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Look at it this way. When this country finally got around to giving blacks equal rights in this country, they had no money, no business, no land, and no education. They were thrust into a world with severe disadvantages that they still face today. It's like going into a football game, spotting the other team 40 points and expecting the other team to compete.

So is it really horrible that they make specific scholarships for minorities so that they may have a chance to catch up?

How about this, suck it up, change the attitude that everyone is out to get you, and try harder... For F*cks Sake!

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

How about this, suck it up, change the attitude that everyone is out to get you, and try harder... For F*cks Sake!

Easy for you to say. You aren't the team down 40-0.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

Yes. It's exactly what everyone preaches against. It's denying someone an equal opportunity at a benefit because of the color of their skin. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Black, white, brown, whatever, it's racism if you don't accept them all.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Easy for you to say. You aren't the team down 40-0.

You know what I was on a 0-17 baseball team that lost many of it's games 1-10 when I was high school we didn't blame it on the other team and we still continued to try to win.

[Warhammer]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

I said the rate is certainly higher, making it more likely. Are you questioning the data?

Not at all, I completely believe the data, I am questioning your reason for bringing it into the argument if you're not saying that there is any bias in the system.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

How about this, suck it up, change the attitude that everyone is out to get you, and try harder... For F*cks Sake!

JeBus Thrist you're clueless.

[Bad-example]

Originally Posted by Noop

JeBus Thrist you're clueless.

Priceless.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Bad-example

Priceless.

Just so you know I meant to spell it Jebus Thrist.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

You know what I was on a 0-17 baseball team that lost many of it's games 1-10 when I was high school we didn't blame it on the other team and we still continued to try to win.

It has nothing to do with blaming people or trying harder. It's about one race that put the other race at a severe disadvantage in society. Then that race complains when people want to help level the playing field a bit.

When the economic and educational gaps between whites and blacks are fixed, I would be against minority scholarships as much as you are.

[Bad-example]

Originally Posted by Noop

Just so you know I meant to spell it Jebus Thrist.

I knew

[illinifan999]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

When the economic and educational gaps between whites and blacks are fixed, I would be against minority scholarships as much as you are.

There are poor people and stupid people of every race.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Seems likely you'd be surprised.

Off the top of my head I'm pretty sure I clearly advocated the same response to, just for one example, the virtually all white protesters at the economic summit in the northwest a few years back.

Are you talking about the Battle of Seattle back in '99? Protests by leftists, anarchists, labor unions, environmentalists, etc.? Yeah, I can totally see you jizzing in your pants over the thoughts of napalming them.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

There are poor people and stupid people of every race.

So your belief is that blacks are poorer and less educated because of the type of melanin in their body? Nothing to do with not having access to land, jobs, schools, or money for the first 200 years of the country's existence?

[RainMaker]

The sad thing about this issue is that I really don't think it had anything to do with race. It should be an issue with the police. Their incompetence, callousness, and cover-up is what people should be upset about.

Most of these scenarios have little to do with race. They are about a police department that is hell bent on protecting their own, even if their own happens to fuck up. Cut out that unquestioned loyalty between cops and these instance will dramatically drop.

There is absolutely no reason this guy should be walking the streets.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by illinifan999

There are poor people and stupid people of every race.

Meh. So long as legacy admissions policies are in place (which disproportionately benefit rich white people since old money families have the longest track record of college attendance in our country), I really don't mind preferential admissions for lower income whites and minorities.

Incidentally, you are wrong about white guys getting the shaft in the college admissions process-you just need to know where to look. At historically black colleges, white applicants are more likely to be accepted and get better aid packages than black applicants with similar academic credentials. As an aside, many colleges are hurting for male applicants these days, especially at small liberal arts schools (which tend to attract more women). So you stand a good chance of getting in there. It's all about supply and demand.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

Not at all, I completely believe the data, I am questioning your reason for bringing it into the argument if you're not saying that there is any bias in the system.

It was in support of the statement that I quoted from Noop.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Ezarik

Are you talking about the Battle of Seattle back in '99?

Has it really been that long?

Hasn't there been another similar deal since then though?

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The sad thing about this issue is that I really don't think it had anything to do with race. It should be an issue with the police. Their incompetence, callousness, and cover-up is what people should be upset about.

Most of these scenarios have little to do with race. They are about a police department that is hell bent on protecting their own, even if their own happens to fuck up. Cut out that unquestioned loyalty between cops and these instance will dramatically drop.

There is absolutely no reason this guy should be walking the streets.

I agree, though there might be an element of race at play, the fundamental issue is incompetence.

I do wonder though if the real issue is inadequate funding. No money for salaries attracts lower quality recruits. No money for training results in badly trained cops who were low quality to begin with.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Is it ironic that MLK's birthday is coming up soon? Whatever happened to that guy? He sure gets quoted a lot, and everyone seems to respect him, but what ever happened to his spirit?

[Buccaneer]

Noop, you're in law school, right?