Barry Sanders....greatest back ever - Page 3

Butter · 12-11-2006, 12:04 PM

Obviously, Barry didn't wish to end the debate about who was the greatest of all time, or else he wouldn't have retired. If he had stayed in the league until he was 37+, no doubt he would have been the all-time yards and TD's leader. As it is, we're left to consider what he would've done in his remaining few years had he stayed with the Lions.

mtolson · 12-11-2006, 12:49 PM

Interesting debate. I think for some though it boils down to who they grew up watching. I don't think many of us have seen more than Jim Brown highlights, FWIW, so its hard to compare. I have always felt Barry was one of the greatest of the greatest. He could have hit 20,000 if he had not quite. However, he will always be dogged with the yards-forl-loss runs and the fact that Detriot pretty much sucked.

My Top 5:

1) Jim Brown - Lead the league in rushing 5 of his 9 seasons. Never got a chance to see him personally, but from what has been said I don't re-call any negatives regarding him. Earl Campbell like with more speed. Averaged over 100 ypg for career. Could have eclipsed 2000 yard mark twice if he played 16 games seasons. Led league in rushing 5 of his 9 seasons.

2) Barry Sanders - 7 of his 10 seasons he was in the top 2 in rushing yards. Very exciting to watch. Rushed for over 2000 yards with a 6.1 ypc average.

3) Eric Dickerson - 3 of his first 4 seasons he rushed for 1800+ yards. Holds single season rushing record. Led league in rushing 4 seasons.

4) Walter Payton - Power, Speed and grace. As exciting to watch as Barry, but for a different reason. Could have surpased the 2000 yard mark in 77 if they played 16 games.

5t) O.J. Simpson - First to rush for over 2000. Could have done it twice if they played 16 games seasons. Led league in rushing 4 seasons.

5t) Emmitt Smith - League league in rushing 4 of 15 seasons. With the exception of Marcus Allen, I think he played the longest career at the highest level for a RB.

HONERABLE MENTIONS:
Earl Campbell - Human bulldozer. Led league in rushing 3 years of his 9.
Gale Sayers - Human highlight reel cut short by injury.
Curtis Martin - Very underrated. Highly productive in his career.
Terrell Davis - Was he a product of a system ? Who knows, but he put up solid numbers until hurt. Member of the 2000+ club.
LT - To young at this point.

WOULD-COULD-OF BEENS:

Bo Jackson - Was a terror when he played but just didn't play enough to deserve being ranked.

mtolson · 12-11-2006, 12:49 PM

Interesting debate. I think for some though it boils down to who they grew up watching. I don't think many of us have seen more than Jim Brown highlights, FWIW, so its hard to compare. I have always felt Barry was one of the greatest of the greatest. He could have hit 20,000 if he had not quite. However, he will always be dogged with the yards-forl-loss runs and the fact that Detriot pretty much sucked.

My Top 5:

1) Jim Brown - Lead the league in rushing 5 of his 9 seasons. Never got a chance to see him personally, but from what has been said I don't re-call any negatives regarding him. Earl Campbell like with more speed. Averaged over 100 ypg for career. Could have eclipsed 2000 yard mark twice if he played 16 games seasons. Led league in rushing 5 of his 9 seasons.

2) Barry Sanders - 7 of his 10 seasons he was in the top 2 in rushing yards. Very exciting to watch. Rushed for over 2000 yards with a 6.1 ypc average.

3) Eric Dickerson - 3 of his first 4 seasons he rushed for 1800+ yards. Holds single season rushing record. Led league in rushing 4 seasons.

4) Walter Payton - Power, Speed and grace. As exciting to watch as Barry, but for a different reason. Could have surpased the 2000 yard mark in 77 if they played 16 games.

5t) O.J. Simpson - First to rush for over 2000. Could have done it twice if they played 16 games seasons. Led league in rushing 4 seasons.

5t) Emmitt Smith - League league in rushing 4 of 15 seasons. With the exception of Marcus Allen, I think he played the longest career at the highest level for a RB.

HONERABLE MENTIONS:
Earl Campbell - Human bulldozer. Led league in rushing 3 years of his 9.
Gale Sayers - Human highlight reel cut short by injury.
Curtis Martin - Very underrated. Highly productive in his career.
Terrell Davis - Was he a product of a system ? Who knows, but he put up solid numbers until hurt. Member of the 2000+ club.
LT - To young at this point.

WOULD-COULD-OF BEENS:

Bo Jackson - Was a terror when he played but just didn't play enough to deserve being ranked.

Crapshoot · 12-11-2006, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cartman

The Elias Sports Bureau would like to have a word with you. They have accumulated all of these stats, plus tons of others based on down/distance/time of game, etc.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I think its significantly more complicated to value individual versus team play in a sport like football than it is in baseball - the latter has a series of discrete actions that can be modeled as such - in football, everything has to be done in a team context.

mtolson · 12-11-2006, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VPI97

It's not hard to argue that the Bears from '75 to '83 were worse than the Lions in the '90s.

Bears Pro Bowlers during Payton's career (75-87)
....

The number of Pro Bowlers is probably not the best method to determine relative strength, but it'll give you an idea of how horrible the Bears were.

I don't think the Bears were worse overall.

With Payton on the Bears, he was a member of 5 teams that had double digit winning seasons, including 15-1 and 14-2 seasons with a super bowl win. The teams winning percentage during the seasons he was around was 57%.

Barry was a member of only 2 teams with 10+ plus wins, actually they the highest ever was 10 games. No Superbowls and collectively the team had a 46% winning percentage.

My vote would go for Detriot have the worst team. Even if you take away the 15-1 and 14-2 seasons, Chicago STILL has a higher winning percentage than Detroit.

JPhillips · 12-11-2006, 01:17 PM

I'm not saying the stats don't exist, just that they aren't being used enough in this thread.

st.cronin · 12-11-2006, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I'm not saying the stats don't exist, just that they aren't being used enough in this thread.

This is sort of my point as well. It's not enough to simply point to one weakness in Barry's stats and say "that proves he's not #1". You have to do more work to convince me.

rkmsuf · 12-11-2006, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by st.cronin

This is sort of my point as well. It's not enough to simply point to one weakness in Barry's stats and say "that proves he's not #1". You have to do more work to convince me.

He can't be the greatest. He played his entire career with the Lions.

st.cronin · 12-11-2006, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

He can't be the greatest. He played his entire career with the Lions.

Now THIS is a compelling argument.

JPhillips · 12-11-2006, 01:34 PM

Here's a take from Football Outsiders. What about OJ?

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/index.php?p=2690

JeffW · 12-11-2006, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPhillips

The problem is that we don't have enough statistics to analyze. The major point against Barry is that he got too many negative yardage runs. However, we don't have any numbers to back this up. We think its true, but how do we know its more than average?

1997 DVOA

1998 DVOA

In the 1st article, it's shown that Barry Sanders had a 46% success rate-22nd in the league. That was the year he had 2000 rushing yards--he was ranked second to Terrell Davis.

In the 2nd, it's shown that he lead the league in runs for lost yardage by 13 more than his closest competitor and here was his DVOA

Code:

Week 1998  	DPAR  	DVOA  	Yards  	Runs  	Yd/R  	Suc. Rate
Weeks 1-10 	13.1 	1.7% 	1012 	202 	5.0 	41%
Weeks 11-17 	-5.7 	-24.0% 	480 	141 	3.4 	38%

Obviously he was hurt this year and this was a below average year, but a 7 DPAR is barely over replacement level and most people would probably consider this a good year for him based on looking at the traditional stats.

There are no DVOA/success rate stats for 1996 and earlier yet.

CU Tiger · 12-11-2006, 03:47 PM

With all the talk of surrounding talent, has any thought been given to who MADE their teams better?

I think Sanders is the only one on the list who never played for a winning team.

Were those teams bad in spite of his performance, or because of.

SFL Cat · 12-11-2006, 08:45 PM

My biggest beef with Sanders is that he was a non-factor in most playoff games. I remember the Packers once held him to negative yards in a wild card game.

12-11-2006, 12:04 PM	#101
Butter Coordinator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Dayton, OH	Obviously, Barry didn't wish to end the debate about who was the greatest of all time, or else he wouldn't have retired. If he had stayed in the league until he was 37+, no doubt he would have been the all-time yards and TD's leader. As it is, we're left to consider what he would've done in his remaining few years had he stayed with the Lions. __________________ My listening habits

12-11-2006, 01:17 PM	#106
JPhillips Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Newburgh, NY	I'm not saying the stats don't exist, just that they aren't being used enough in this thread. __________________ To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers

12-11-2006, 01:34 PM	#110
JPhillips Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Newburgh, NY	Here's a take from Football Outsiders. What about OJ? http://www.footballoutsiders.com/index.php?p=2690 __________________ To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers

12-11-2006, 12:49 PM	#102
mtolson H.S. Freshman Team Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Bowie, MD	Interesting debate. I think for some though it boils down to who they grew up watching. I don't think many of us have seen more than Jim Brown highlights, FWIW, so its hard to compare. I have always felt Barry was one of the greatest of the greatest. He could have hit 20,000 if he had not quite. However, he will always be dogged with the yards-forl-loss runs and the fact that Detriot pretty much sucked. My Top 5: 1) Jim Brown - Lead the league in rushing 5 of his 9 seasons. Never got a chance to see him personally, but from what has been said I don't re-call any negatives regarding him. Earl Campbell like with more speed. Averaged over 100 ypg for career. Could have eclipsed 2000 yard mark twice if he played 16 games seasons. Led league in rushing 5 of his 9 seasons. 2) Barry Sanders - 7 of his 10 seasons he was in the top 2 in rushing yards. Very exciting to watch. Rushed for over 2000 yards with a 6.1 ypc average. 3) Eric Dickerson - 3 of his first 4 seasons he rushed for 1800+ yards. Holds single season rushing record. Led league in rushing 4 seasons. 4) Walter Payton - Power, Speed and grace. As exciting to watch as Barry, but for a different reason. Could have surpased the 2000 yard mark in 77 if they played 16 games. 5t) O.J. Simpson - First to rush for over 2000. Could have done it twice if they played 16 games seasons. Led league in rushing 4 seasons. 5t) Emmitt Smith - League league in rushing 4 of 15 seasons. With the exception of Marcus Allen, I think he played the longest career at the highest level for a RB. HONERABLE MENTIONS: Earl Campbell - Human bulldozer. Led league in rushing 3 years of his 9. Gale Sayers - Human highlight reel cut short by injury. Curtis Martin - Very underrated. Highly productive in his career. Terrell Davis - Was he a product of a system ? Who knows, but he put up solid numbers until hurt. Member of the 2000+ club. LT - To young at this point. WOULD-COULD-OF BEENS: Bo Jackson - Was a terror when he played but just didn't play enough to deserve being ranked.

12-11-2006, 12:49 PM	#103
mtolson H.S. Freshman Team Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Bowie, MD	Interesting debate. I think for some though it boils down to who they grew up watching. I don't think many of us have seen more than Jim Brown highlights, FWIW, so its hard to compare. I have always felt Barry was one of the greatest of the greatest. He could have hit 20,000 if he had not quite. However, he will always be dogged with the yards-forl-loss runs and the fact that Detriot pretty much sucked. My Top 5: 1) Jim Brown - Lead the league in rushing 5 of his 9 seasons. Never got a chance to see him personally, but from what has been said I don't re-call any negatives regarding him. Earl Campbell like with more speed. Averaged over 100 ypg for career. Could have eclipsed 2000 yard mark twice if he played 16 games seasons. Led league in rushing 5 of his 9 seasons. 2) Barry Sanders - 7 of his 10 seasons he was in the top 2 in rushing yards. Very exciting to watch. Rushed for over 2000 yards with a 6.1 ypc average. 3) Eric Dickerson - 3 of his first 4 seasons he rushed for 1800+ yards. Holds single season rushing record. Led league in rushing 4 seasons. 4) Walter Payton - Power, Speed and grace. As exciting to watch as Barry, but for a different reason. Could have surpased the 2000 yard mark in 77 if they played 16 games. 5t) O.J. Simpson - First to rush for over 2000. Could have done it twice if they played 16 games seasons. Led league in rushing 4 seasons. 5t) Emmitt Smith - League league in rushing 4 of 15 seasons. With the exception of Marcus Allen, I think he played the longest career at the highest level for a RB. HONERABLE MENTIONS: Earl Campbell - Human bulldozer. Led league in rushing 3 years of his 9. Gale Sayers - Human highlight reel cut short by injury. Curtis Martin - Very underrated. Highly productive in his career. Terrell Davis - Was he a product of a system ? Who knows, but he put up solid numbers until hurt. Member of the 2000+ club. LT - To young at this point. WOULD-COULD-OF BEENS: Bo Jackson - Was a terror when he played but just didn't play enough to deserve being ranked.

12-11-2006, 03:47 PM	#112
CU Tiger Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Backwoods, SC	With all the talk of surrounding talent, has any thought been given to who MADE their teams better? I think Sanders is the only one on the list who never played for a winning team. Were those teams bad in spite of his performance, or because of.

12-11-2006, 08:45 PM	#113
SFL Cat College Starter Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: South Florida	My biggest beef with Sanders is that he was a non-factor in most playoff games. I remember the Packers once held him to negative yards in a wild card game.

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