POL/REL: Taking the Oath of Office on the Koran

[Buccaneer]

The Federal Govt (i.e., Congress) cannot make a law in regards to favoring or unfavoring one religion or another. The majority of those elected throughout our history has professed a belief in a "religious" faith - simply because it is an extention of who we are, as voters. That is why anyone of any faith (or no faith) can be elected and represent those that elected them. (This renders the misunderstood phrase "separation of church/state" irrelevant.) If the representative desires to represent the Muslim faith as an extension of who he is, the Federal Govt cannot and should not say otherwise.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

The Federal Govt (i.e., Congress) cannot make a law in regards to favoring or unfavoring one religion or another. The majority of those elected throughout our history has professed a belief in a "religious" faith - simply because it is an extention of who we are, as voters. That is why anyone of any faith (or no faith) can be elected and represent those that elected them. (This renders the misunderstood phrase "separation of church/state" irrelevant.) If the representative desires to represent the Muslim faith as an extension of who he is, the Federal Govt cannot and should not say otherwise.

I'd love to see someone disagree with you on legality. I just can't fathom someone making that attempt.

I think some folks are disagreeing philosphically. I think those people are so completely wrong, but I don't think anyone is saying that there are existing laws that could prevent this. Just some crap about the Muslims taking over the US and killing all of the Christians if we allow this to happen.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

Here's a difference between Christians and Muslims in the modern age:

We "turn our backs" when radical Christains spout hatred towards homosexuals. Muslims just kill them.

In EVERY SINGLE Islamic Middle East country, being a homosexual is a crime punishable by death.

Before anyone goes off about how "loving" and "caring" Muslims are, just remember that.

Actually, not true of the muslim majority countries of Southeast Asia. Remember, much like Catholicism is an overlay over a profoundly Southeast Asian culture in the Philippines, the relationship between Islam and other facets of culture is similar in Indonesia.

Southeast Asians often have a less repressed view of sexuality than your average American. There has always been a tolerance for homosexuality even in places like Indonesia that you may never see in many regions of the US.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

The Federal Govt (i.e., Congress) cannot make a law in regards to favoring or unfavoring one religion or another. The majority of those elected throughout our history has professed a belief in a "religious" faith - simply because it is an extention of who we are, as voters. That is why anyone of any faith (or no faith) can be elected and represent those that elected them. (This renders the misunderstood phrase "separation of church/state" irrelevant.) If the representative desires to represent the Muslim faith as an extension of who he is, the Federal Govt cannot and should not say otherwise.

This is correct, the Government itself cannot sanction any particular religion as an official "state religion", but that also does not mean that the word god or other religious symbols can't appear in government buildings, schools etc...


In other words, there is no REAL seperation of church and state, something many have been told by teachers and other misinformed educators over the years.

In regard to this issue, I for one don't think the government can say this man can't be a muslim, but I do think it can say there are certain traditions and customs you must take part in as a job requirement. I.E. the oath of office.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

In regard to this issue, I for one don't think the government can say this man can't be a muslim, but I do think it can say there are certain traditions and customs you must take part in as a job requirement. I.E. the oath of office.

He is taking the oath of office. People have quoted multiple documents that tell the requirements for the oath of office, and he is following every single one.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

That's true, but those are the exception, hense the reason why it's NOT a law like that. Apparently either the majority of muslims in that country do not disagree with the law, or they're silent about it. Either way, it's still the law there.

Kind of like all the uproar we had a couple years ago when people raised up to overturn the anti-sodomy laws in this country. Oh, wait, you mean there wasn't any uprising? I guess that means that the majority of Americans were fine with people being arrested for sodomy. Thank goodness the Supreme Court stepped in.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by wade moore

He is taking the oath of office. People have quoted multiple documents that tell the requirements for the oath of office, and he is following every single one.

Perhaps, but I beleive this is a very slippery slope. What if I decided I am a Nazi, and want to take the oath on Hitler's Mien Kiempf, should that be allowed? How about books and documents written by David Koresh, Marshall Applewhite, or Jim Jones?

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

Perhaps, but I beleive this is a very slippery slope. What if I decided I am a Nazi, and want to take the oath on Hitler's Mien Kiempf, should that be allowed? How about books and documents written by David Koresh, Marshall Applewhite, or Jim Jones?

Edit: By law nothing can stop you. In principle, I feel the fundamentals our country was built on mean that there should be no law to stop you.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Ezarik

Kind of like all the uproar we had a couple years ago when people raised up to overturn the anti-sodomy laws in this country. Oh, wait, you mean there wasn't any uprising? I guess that means that the majority of Americans were fine with people being arrested for sodomy. Thank goodness the Supreme Court stepped in.

I have a problem with sodomy, but the difference between myself and many muslims, is that I am not going to start riots and begin killing people when things don't go my way.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

Perhaps, but I beleive this is a very slippery slope. What if I decided I am a Nazi, and want to take the oath on Hitler's Mien Kiempf, should that be allowed? How about books and documents written by David Koresh, Marshall Applewhite, or Jim Jones?

Then that person more than likely wouldn't be elected to another term. But if that's what they want to use, so be it. They are saying the same oath as everyone, just using a text they feel most represents their views. You seem to think the guy isn't going to take the oath of office, but make some sort of alliance with Allah. The guy campaigned as a Muslim, so why would it be so surprising that he would want to use the Koran?

I remember back in my American Presidents class in college that a lot of people were upset that Kennedy was Catholic, and that by using a Catholic version of the Bible during his inauguration, some sort of power sharing with the Vatican was going to occur.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by cartman

Then that person more than likely wouldn't be elected to another term. But if that's what they want to use, so be it. They are saying the same oath as everyone, just using a text they feel most represents their views. You seem to think the guy isn't going to take the oath of office, but make some sort of alliance with Allah. The guy campaigned as a Muslim, so why would it be so surprising that he would want to use the Koran?

I remember back in my American Presidents class in college that a lot of people were upset that Kennedy was Catholic, and that by using a Catholic version of the Bible during his inauguration, some sort of power sharing with the Vatican was going to occur.

I haven't even bothered bringing up how many parrallels there are to this even in our nations short history. You just replace Christian and Muslim in the discussion with Catholic and Protestant, or whatever.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

Perhaps, but I beleive this is a very slippery slope. What if I decided I am a Nazi, and want to take the oath on Hitler's Mien Kiempf, should that be allowed? How about books and documents written by David Koresh, Marshall Applewhite, or Jim Jones?

I didn't realize Nazism was a religion, but if that's what you believe and you consider Mein Kampf a holy text, then you should be able to use it to swear an oath.

[wade moore]

I don't even understand the point you're trying to make with that picture. There is absolutely no precedence for this situation. There is no history of an established democratic nation being taken over by a religious minority. All of the mulsim led nations you are bringing up they are coming from a completelyd ifferent background where the culture has always been completely different than the US is now and where they have have been the majority in the area for 1000's of years.

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

I have a problem with sodomy, but the difference between myself and many muslims, is that I am not going to start riots and begin killing people when things don't go my way.

The problem you seem to have with Muslims is that you see the explosive footage on TV and think that reflects all Muslims. When the KKK was running around in the South, did that mean that every white Southerner was in the KKK and approved of their tactics? Or that every German in Nazi Germany was a Nazi? The bad apples are always the ones that get the most notice. Blood and gore sells.

Remember that there are over a billion Muslims in the world. If the majority of them are violent fundamentalists that want nothing more than to kill us, I think you would see a lot more violence than what you do see. Christians wouldn't be able to go anywhere in the Muslim world without being killed.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

Here's a difference between Christians and Muslims in the modern age:

...

In EVERY SINGLE Islamic Middle East country, being a homosexual is a crime punishable by death.

Nice clarification - using the countries in the Middle East to paint the whole religion.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Ezarik

The problem you seem to have with Muslims is that you see the explosive footage on TV and think that reflects all Muslims. When the KKK was running around in the South, did that mean that every white Southerner was in the KKK and approved of their tactics? Or that every German in Nazi Germany was a Nazi? The bad apples are always the ones that get the most notice. Blood and gore sells.

Remember that there are over a billion Muslims in the world. If the majority of them are violent fundamentalists that want nothing more than to kill us, I think you would see a lot more violence than what you do see. Christians wouldn't be able to go anywhere in the Muslim world without being killed.

You make a good point, and I just want to point out that you are right, most og the Muslims are not violent extemists who want to kill us all, but you must admit there are an awful lot who sit by and watch and say nothing. Some even go so far as to celebrate when terrorism hits the west, yet they themselves don't participate in the violence. The problem here is an ideaology within the muslim world. While few may participate in the violence, many either sit by idle, or outrightly encourage it.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

You make a good point, and I just want to point out that you are right, most og the Muslims are not violent extemists who want to kill us all, but you must admit there are an awful lot who sit by and watch and say nothing. Some even go so far as to celebrate when terrorism hits the west, yet they themselves don't participate in the violence. The problem here is an ideaology within the muslim world. While few may participate in the violence, many either sit by idle, or outrightly encourage it.

You can take out "muslim country" and insert just many countries that are not industrial, modern societies. You're doing what many do and just attempting to make a correlation that is not there. This is not about being muslim, it's about living in a harsh part of the world that has not fully come into modern society yet.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Ezarik

The problem you seem to have with Muslims is that you see the explosive footage on TV and think that reflects all Muslims. When the KKK was running around in the South, did that mean that every white Southerner was in the KKK and approved of their tactics? Or that every German in Nazi Germany was a Nazi? The bad apples are always the ones that get the most notice. Blood and gore sells.

Remember that there are over a billion Muslims in the world. If the majority of them are violent fundamentalists that want nothing more than to kill us, I think you would see a lot more violence than what you do see. Christians wouldn't be able to go anywhere in the Muslim world without being killed.

Still too high though. http://www.christianpersecution.info/

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Still too high though. http://www.christianpersecution.info/

Agreed. But, in many of these countries (Iraq included), they're killing their own just as much as they are killing Christians.

I still stand by the fact that this is less about religion and more about culture/state of development of the country.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by wade moore

I still stand by the opinion that this is less about religion and more about culture/state of development of the country.

Fixed that for you

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Someone should tell Imran that PSUColonel is at war with him.

S'ok, PSUColonel is also at war with reality .

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

the muslim commuinty as a whole gets offened when a bunch of men on an airplane yelling about how great Bin laden is get escorted off the plane in Wisconsin.

Aside from the fact that never hapepned... unless you think complaining about the US's foriegn policy is akin to "how great bin Laden is". In that case, you may have to put even JIMG in the brig!

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Fixed that for you

You're right ...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by wade moore

You're right ...

Naturally

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Sometimes...

Fixed that for ya ...

[Jonathan Ezarik]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

You make a good point, and I just want to point out that you are right, most og the Muslims are not violent extemists who want to kill us all, but you must admit there are an awful lot who sit by and watch and say nothing. Some even go so far as to celebrate when terrorism hits the west, yet they themselves don't participate in the violence. The problem here is an ideaology within the muslim world. While few may participate in the violence, many either sit by idle, or outrightly encourage it.

I think it's more about psychology than ideology. Again, look at Nazi Germany. As long as the violence is directed at someone else and the masses are going along with things, it's easy for individuals to look away or even support it to an extent.

If we used the Bible as our sole basis of the law, we would live in a society very similar to the ones the Islamic fundamentalists want to establish. So, I really don't think there are that many differences in the ideology of the two religions. The difference is in the leadership. With a few exceptions, Christian leaders aren't calling for violence. We need Islamic leaders who will condemn these acts of violence and these need to be the overwhelming voices in the religion. I hope it happens soon, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Drake]

Everyone became a loser when Nazis came up in this thread.

[Drake]

dola...

I fear for a country where innocent message board threads start with slutty women and end with Nazis. We're all doomed.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Wait until the lost ark of the covenant comes up next.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Drake

Everyone became a loser when Nazis came up in this thread.

No, you're wrong. This man wins

SI

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Vinatieri for Prez

Wait until the lost ark of the covenant comes up next.

Great point. Raiders started out with slutty women and ended with Nazis. So, um, does that make Bucc our Indiana Jones?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

No, you're wrong. This man wins

SI

You've made two posts in this thread and now I've fallen madly in love with you.

Would that be love at first byte?

[Drake]

It's okay, you can groan. That was pretty bad even by my standards.

[sterlingice]

There needs to be some sort of Golden Pun award given to people who are then no longer allowed to post for the next 6 hours

(but I'd lose posts!!11)

SI

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Drake

Everyone became a loser when Nazis came up in this thread.

Was merely pointing out that it isn't smart in all instances to just let things unfold w/o getting involved.

[Drake]

I'd rather we move on the Golden Shower award so we can finally get cuervo72 effectively banned for life.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Was merely pointing out that it isn't smart in all instances to just let things unfold w/o getting involved.

Things unfolding without my involvement is the only way I've gotten laid for the last 13 years.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Drake

Great point. Raiders started out with slutty women and ended with Nazis. So, um, does that make Bucc our Indiana Jones?

What did I do now?

[Drake]

I thought you were the logical choice. You're like the only guy at FOFC who has ever spent a significant amount of time outside.

Plus, you're the only person I know older than Harrison Ford.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

What did I do now?

Wear a hat, carry a whip, beat Nazis, have a strong dislike for snakes, look for ancient archeological artifacts. That sort of thing.

SI

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Drake

I thought you were the logical choice. You're like the only guy at FOFC who has ever spent a significant amount of time outside.

Plus, you're the only person I know older than Harrison Ford.

It's not the years, it's the miles.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

It's not the years, it's the miles.

Ok, so you're older than the bastardized love child of Methuselah and Otis Nixon?

SI

[Drake]

I'd really love it if bullwhips came into fashion. Nothing says dead sexy like snapping a bullwhip off your belt and flicking things with it.

This is on my list of Things to Accomplish Before I Come to my Senses (tm) right after starting an internet campaign to get people to erect weird/funny/inappropriate signs and designs in their yards that will show up in the satellite photos on Google Maps.

[Pumpy Tudors]

This thread was much funnier on the first page. Also, some of you people are weird.

[Drake]

Killjoy

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

This thread was much funnier on the first page. Also, some of you people are weird.

Well, I know what would liven this thread up



SI

[Subby]

This seems like a good time to go.

[sterlingice]

Better we have silly nonsense than crazy flame wars. "I know, we'll overwhelm their forces with absurdity!"

SI

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

I have a problem with sodomy, but the difference between myself and many muslims, is that I am not going to start riots and begin killing people when things don't go my way.

I am distinctly pro sodomy. I'd go so far as to say that anyone who isn't, probably isn't familiar with what the term actually means.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

I am distinctly pro sodomy. I'd go so far as to say that anyone who isn't, probably isn't familiar with what the term actually means.

Just to make sure I didn't have a false understanding of the meaning of the word, I went to dictionary.com. Based on reading that, I'm not sure why you say this.

Edit: I'm not against it for others at all. I just don't understand the idea that if you're not "distinctly pro sodomy" that you don't know what the term actually means.

[Drake]

Then obviously you haven't experienced the true love of a manly sodomite relationship.