(LONG) "God Is With Us": Hitler's Rhetoric and the Lure of "Moral Values"

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by bamcgee

I love your sig, JIMG. It's says a lot about you.

Well, that's rather the whole purpose of a sig, eh?

I can just see Jesus uttering those words as they nail him to the cross...
Oh wait, he said something more like "Forgive them, they know not what they do." Intolerant indeed.

Here's the interesting kicker that somehow seems to get lost frequently around here in threads like these -- you seem to be lobbing some sort of "Christian values" shell in my direction with that. The problem is, my dismissal has nothing particular to do with my religion/her religion, or anybody's religion -- it has to do with her rather obvious political leanings (search up a few of her other essays like I did this morning, before posting a single word here & you'll see what I mean). Dang, how the heck else do you think I found the bio? It's not like I carry that sort of stuff around with me, I found it while trying to see what to make of the writer. What I found led me to a pretty clear conclusion that the next time she has a clue will be the first, and that pretty much rendered this piece worthless, just another steaming pile of crap.

[gi]

Originally Posted by LionsFan10

Oh man, a real yawner here. We've got politics AND religion in the same thread.

I just wanted to boost my post count.

LOL, I'm actually enjoying this. Better than AM1270 Lions talk!

[gi]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

What I found led me to a pretty clear conclusion that the next time she has a clue will be the first, and that pretty much rendered this piece worthless, just another steaming pile of crap.

I disagree. I've already learned a ton by all of the discourse we had here today. The article was the catalyst.

[Glengoyne]

As to the original article that started this.
Come on. Does anyone really see the parallels she is drawing?

... "Our prayer is: Lord God, let us never hesitate, let us never play the coward, let us never forget the duty which we have taken upon us,"Hitler said in March, 1933, sounding much like our president, who believes that God wants him to liberate the people in Middle East -- even if he has to torture, maim and kill tens of thousands in the process. "I believe we have a duty to free people," Bush told Bob Woodward. "I would hope we wouldn't have to do it militarily, but we have a duty.. . . Going into this period, I was praying for strength to do the Lord's will. . . ."

I just grabbed one instance, but her diatribe is full of imaginative, and not so imaginative, reaches.

The left needs more Al Franken and Rush Limbaugh types. If she has any sort of on air presence, she could be a shoo in. She absolutely exhibits adept skill in furthering an absurd argument while occasionally inserting bits of truth or fact along the way.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

What dignity is lost by pointing out that the messenger in this case has about as much credibility as a wino on a street corner?

I've got t-shirts older than the wannabe writer, who appears to have about as much experience in the real world as my 6 y/o. Her bio provides clues that she's pretty much what she writes like -- another worthless liberal without a fucking clue.

If people want to waste their time giving deep thought to the musings of someone who doesn't appear capable of having a clue even if she spent $1,250 buying vowels from Vanna so be it ... but damned if I see a problem with someone calling b.s. on the same material.

Hopefully the future is full of more people like her and less people like George Bush.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

Hopefully the future is full of more people like her and less people like George Bush.

Not gonna happen, but please feel free to hope for it ... it'll make crushing that pipedream all the more fun.



{Yes gang, that was a post by crotchety old Jon that intentionally used self-parody as a humor device. Any resemblence to actual thought or feelings, living or dead, is purely coincidental.}

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

Hopefully the future is full of more people like her and less people like George Bush.

Why? Is she hot? Do you have pix?

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

I'll take my previous quote a step further: It appears to me more and more that the secular crowd is attempting to equate traditional morality with evil and traditional immorality with virtue. Seems to be the common thread amongst most anti-religious articles and 'research.'

You remind me of my friends Father. He says that anyone who isn't a "Born Again Christian" is going to hell. I don't even argue with him.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by mking

To hear public prayer is very offensive to me (and others). There is a time and place for everything. But as part of the 'majority' I don't believe you (the generic you) can understand that. It's more of my time is anytime, and my place is anyplace, and who the hell cares what some non-christian thinks because they should be in hell anyhow.

Those are your words, not mine.

It's obvious you have a lot of hostility towards this subject matter. Since you're borderline atheist, I can imagine it would be hard to not only be "tolerant" of another's religion (as you say you are) and also understand the significance of prayer across all religions.

It's funny, because I see the same smugness in you that I see in so-called Christian elitists. Both of you think you are right, so what's the difference? Who's more elightened?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Okay, along with the random post order problem ... is anybody noticing some weirdness about read/not read thread indications on the main forum page?

Several times this afternoon I've had this thread come back to the top after reading it but there's nothing new in the thread when I return. Or is that part of the random post order glitch, it's registering a new post but it's one that's been buried up the thread somewhere?

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Don't get me started on the kind of crap the schools are pumping into our kid's heads with the government's full endorsement - most of it is amoral, liberal, humanistic crap that is offensive to me.

Yes, let's save our children from the evils of arithmetic and the immorality of Huck Finn.

[CraigSca]

I'm Christian. I love math, but never really got into Mark Twain.

The bottom line is, there are relative truths in anything. Quoting from either extreme (whether it be liberal or conservative) is pointless and only inflammatory. It's the same old tiresome drivel.

Edited for spelling.

[gi]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Okay, along with the random post order problem ... is anybody noticing some weirdness about read/not read thread indications on the main forum page?

Several times this afternoon I've had this thread come back to the top after reading it but there's nothing new in the thread when I return. Or is that part of the random post order glitch, it's registering a new post but it's one that's been buried up the thread somewhere?

Yep, tis why your post earlier made me laugh so much. Our forum is haunted.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

You remind me of my friends Father. He says that anyone who isn't a "Born Again Christian" is going to hell. I don't even argue with him.

...and don't park your heap in my driveway anymore, it leaks oil...

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

I'm Christian. I love math, but never really got into Mark Twain.

The bottom line is, there are relative truths in anything. Quoting from either extreme (whether it be liberal or conservative) is pointless and only inflammatory. It's the same old tiresome drivel.

Edited for spelling.

So, is using the Bible as the source for your viewpoint 'extreme'? And if that is the case, should we then outlaw its use for the sake of 'moderation?" Not so far-fetched, Canada is already doing this in part as I understand it (under its 'hate-speech' laws.)

[gi]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

So, is using the Bible as the source for your viewpoint 'extreme'? And if that is the case, should we then outlaw its use for the sake of 'moderation?" Not so far-fetched, Canada is already doing this in part as I understand it (under its 'hate-speech' laws.)

Well you could have MANY arguements on this. Which Bible? Which translation? Pick your bias with any translation. Watch the fights over the translation of which Bible....

[mking]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Those are your words, not mine.

It's obvious you have a lot of hostility towards this subject matter. Since you're borderline atheist, I can imagine it would be hard to not only be "tolerant" of another's religion (as you say you are) and also understand the significance of prayer across all religions.

It's funny, because I see the same smugness in you that I see in so-called Christian elitists. Both of you think you are right, so what's the difference? Who's more elightened?

Why I am, of course. I don't think anyone is going to hell. I don't damn anyone to hell. I believe in freedom of religion. My only problem is I am not interested in having in rammed down my throat (or my children's) in public places.

Of course I have hostility. However, not towards everyone. In fact, some of my best friends are Christian. However, they are people first and accepting of others and don't wear their religion on their sleeve.

And I don't play favorites. On a flight to London in '79 I remember having to push thru a group of Hasidic Jews at the back of the plane, doing their prayer thing. That bothered me because they were broadcasting religion AND blocking the aisles.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by mking

Why I am, of course. I don't think anyone is going to hell. I don't damn anyone to hell. I believe in freedom of religion. My only problem is I am not interested in having in rammed down my throat (or my children's) in public places.

Of course I have hostility. However, not towards everyone. In fact, some of my best friends are Christian. However, they are people first and accepting of others and don't wear their religion on their sleeve.

And I don't play favorites. On a flight to London in '79 I remember having to push thru a group of Hasidic Jews at the back of the plane, doing their prayer thing. That bothered me because they were broadcasting religion AND blocking the aisles.

If you had a problem with that one, being in East Dearborn would cause your head to explode (largest Muslim pop outside of middle east recently got permission to broadcast 'call to prayer' from local mosque. Equated with Catholic Church bell ringing.)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by mking

Why I am, of course.

Dang, you took those words right out of my mouth.

Which, I strongly suspect, will amuse some around us as ironic.

Which, in turn, rather amuses each of us because we realize the truly amusing part is that only one of us is actually right.

[gi]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

If you had a problem with that one, being in East Dearborn would cause your head to explode (largest Muslim pop outside of middle east recently got permission to broadcast 'call to prayer' from local mosque. Equated with Catholic Church bell ringing.)

It was Hamtramac I thought that allowed this by local officals, not Dearborn. I used to live there (Dearborn), I do not recall the call to prayer being on.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by gi

It was Hamtramac I thought that allowed this by local officals, not Dearborn. I used to live there (Dearborn), I do not recall the call to prayer being on.

Just FWIW, this article
http://www.freep.com/news/latestnews...3_20040525.htm
says that, although Hamtramck was voting on it, "Mosques in Dearborn and Detroit broadcast on loudspeakers and have done so without seeking permission from those city governments."

[gi]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Just FWIW, this article
http://www.freep.com/news/latestnews...3_20040525.htm
says that, although Hamtramck was voting on it, "Mosques in Dearborn and Detroit broadcast on loudspeakers and have done so without seeking permission from those city governments."

Guess I was in the part of Dearborn where you couldn't hear it. Thanks for the research though, good work!!!

[Subby]

This is a really depressing thread.

On so many levels.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by gi

Guess I was in the part of Dearborn where you couldn't hear it. Thanks for the research though, good work!!!

You're welcome. I was just curious enough to start wondering so a little Googling & there it was. Another link also provided a possible explanation for why you didn't hear them

This is the site link, but it's citing another Free Press article
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/7417-.html
Q: Do mosques in other metro Detroit cities broadcast the call?

A: Most do so within the mosque, but one mosque in Dearborn and several in Detroit broadcast externally.

Maybe it is "just one" instead of all/several, and that would seem likely to be something that you'd have to be in just the right neighborhood to hear at all.

[gi]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

You're welcome. I was just curious enough to start wondering so a little Googling & there it was. Another link also provided a possible explanation for why you didn't hear them

What did we do before Google...library what????

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

So, is using the Bible as the source for your viewpoint 'extreme'? And if that is the case, should we then outlaw its use for the sake of 'moderation?" Not so far-fetched, Canada is already doing this in part as I understand it (under its 'hate-speech' laws.)

Interesting that you ask this. When I was younger, I was a born again Christian. We were evangelical, so we took everything in the Bible completely literal. As I've grown up, there are a number of things in the Bible that I have trouble with and that's been key in keeping me from embracing my faith entirely, though I do consider a Christian at heart. My morality, charity and "samaritanship" (if that's even a word) are all because of my childhood in the church.

Now that I'm older, I find the extremes on both sides as distasteful. I don't believe that God holds malice towards people who are gay, to the young child growing up in Bangladesh who has never heard of Jesus, etc. I understand the very nature of Christianity beckons you to witness to others, to spread the good news. Imagine, if you will, that you hold the key to heaven and your family member/best friend hasn't embraced it. If you really loved them (or society) you would do everything in your power to have them take that key as well, wouldn't you?

To the people who take great offense to people witnessing to them...there's a right way and a wrong way to go about it. If someone starts with, "You're going to hell..." that's obviously the wrong way. If you can think about it from the other point of view, however, they are only really thinking of you, and want you to share in this incredible thing. If you're a person who has no beliefs whatsoever, yes, you can be disgusted with this, consider it a nuisance, whatever -- but really, that's not their goal. They feel they have the key to the universe, and they'd like to share it with you.

I can see both sides as I've been on both sides. Heck, my parents are back in the church again and desperately want me to bring our children up in that "glow". I value the church for it's morality, and the ability to teach right from wrong, but I don't agree with a lot of the literal translations of the Book.

I feel there is a God out there, but I think it's very hard for the human mind to comprehend.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by mking

Why I am, of course. And I don't play favorites. On a flight to London in '79 I remember having to push thru a group of Hasidic Jews at the back of the plane, doing their prayer thing. That bothered me because they were broadcasting religion AND blocking the aisles.

That's great news. The bottom line is, however, that you either are or aren't. Those are 50/50 odds - you might as well flip a coin.

It's interesting that you note your Hasidic Jew experience. I had the same experiences this past summer/fall in Boston and New York around convention time. Of course, these people has an entirely different "religion", but it inconvenienced me all the same. Maybe someday there will be a law preventing them from inconveniecing me...

[LionsFan10]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

If you had a problem with that one, being in East Dearborn would cause your head to explode (largest Muslim pop outside of middle east recently got permission to broadcast 'call to prayer' from local mosque. Equated with Catholic Church bell ringing.)

East Dearborn, where do you live Bubba? I used to stay in East Dearborn, right by the City Hall

[mking]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

That's great news. The bottom line is, however, that you either are or aren't. Those are 50/50 odds - you might as well flip a coin.

It's interesting that you note your Hasidic Jew experience. I had the same experiences this past summer/fall in Boston and New York around convention time. Of course, these people has an entirely different "religion", but it inconvenienced me all the same. Maybe someday there will be a law preventing them from inconveniecing me...

Don't worry about it. The airlines have already taken care of it. You are not allowed to block the aisles. Another crisis solved.

[CraigSca]

Phew! Yet another reason to blindly trust our federal government as they seem to know what's best!

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

I feel there is a God out there, but I think it's very hard for the human mind to comprehend.

I agree. I also agree w/ your "child from Bandladesh" thoughts as well...I've been told by a few diff. BAC's that "everyone has the chance to see Jesus and accept him at some point in their life..." and that if they don't, they're basically screwed. The flaw in that is...didn't God create us? God created me with this brain. My brain will not allow me to believe in the God of the Bible based on faith alone. I just can't.

So that being said...there may be a God...there may not. But like you say...I don't thinkl we can even grasp what it is. Hundreds of years ago, people thought the Earth was flat...

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

... Hundreds of years ago, people thought the Earth was flat...

NPR did a segment on this not too long ago, and this might be the biggest urban legend of all time. The notion that the world was flat was aparrently not all that popular of a idea prior to Columbus's journey. That is what we have all been taught, but it apparently wasn't all that popular a theory at the time. It was almost a hundred years later when people popularized the notion that "people used to think the world was flat too".

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Subby

This is a really depressing thread.

On so many levels.

Not for me - I got two gold stars!!!!

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

NPR did a segment on this not too long ago, and this might be the biggest urban legend of all time. The notion that the world was flat was aparrently not all that popular of a idea prior to Columbus's journey. That is what we have all been taught, but it apparently wasn't all that popular a theory at the time. It was almost a hundred years later when people popularized the notion that "people used to think the world was flat too".

Ok. I'll defer to you on this, as I don't know much about it. I think everyone will get the point, though.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by LionsFan10

East Dearborn, where do you live Bubba? I used to stay in East Dearborn, right by the City Hall

I live out in the lakes area, but Grammy and Grampy both lived to a ripe old age first in East Dearborn, later Grammy lived in West after Grampy passed. I used to get walked around that park next to City Hall and dragged thru the old Federal Dept Store on Mich and Shaefer on a regular basis.

And that mosque you talked about may be the biggest one in North America. The big one on Alter Drive, they just finished it recently.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

I agree. I also agree w/ your "child from Bandladesh" thoughts as well...I've been told by a few diff. BAC's that "everyone has the chance to see Jesus and accept him at some point in their life..." and that if they don't, they're basically screwed. The flaw in that is...didn't God create us? God created me with this brain. My brain will not allow me to believe in the God of the Bible based on faith alone. I just can't.

So that being said...there may be a God...there may not. But like you say...I don't thinkl we can even grasp what it is. Hundreds of years ago, people thought the Earth was flat...

Ha! This takes the loss of 'personal responsibility' to a whole new level! Salvation by accepting Christ is supposed to be a personal choice by an individual allowed by 'free will.' But in your case, God created your brain and that brain cannot accept His existance, so your still covered right? Good Luck with that one at the judgement! (The last refers to the event referred to in the Bible, so if the Bible isn't true no worries, right?)

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

Ok. I'll defer to you on this, as I don't know much about it. I think everyone will get the point, though.

hehe. No trouble. My entire bit of knowledge on the subject comes from a five minute piece on public radio where the reporter asks a few historians some questions. Maybe those historians are part of a fringe element, and I shouldn't believe everything I hear on the radio.

edit: I did find this website among others though
http://www.bede.org.uk/flatearth.htm

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Ha! This takes the loss of 'personal responsibility' to a whole new level! Salvation by accepting Christ is supposed to be a personal choice by an individual allowed by 'free will.' But in your case, God created your brain and that brain cannot accept His existance, so your still covered right? Good Luck with that one at the judgement! (The last refers to the event referred to in the Bible, so if the Bible isn't true no worries, right?)

See, I don't understand this attitude. What is to be gained by this flippant response?

Here's the deal: suppose Islam is correct. Suppose Jesus was just a prophet. Suppose I have my "free will" as you have, but you didn't see the forest through the trees that Islam is correct. Now reverse the process. Does God intentionally make it harder on some souls by having them grow up in predominantly Muslim countries to see if they "get it" and accept Jesus? If Jesus IS the way, the truth and the life, wouldn't he give every human being the same opportunity to hear and understand God's Word? What ABOUT that child in Bangladesh who dies in a flood at the age of 8 and has never even heard the name "Jesus"?

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Phew! Yet another reason to blindly trust our federal government as they seem to know what's best!

Be careful of those then who wish to empower the government even more.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

See, I don't understand this attitude. What is to be gained by this flippant response?

Here's the deal: suppose Islam is correct. Suppose Jesus was just a prophet. Suppose I have my "free will" as you have, but you didn't see the forest through the trees that Islam is correct. Now reverse the process. Does God intentionally make it harder on some souls by having them grow up in predominantly Muslim countries to see if they "get it" and accept Jesus? If Jesus IS the way, the truth and the life, wouldn't he give every human being the same opportunity to hear and understand God's Word? What ABOUT that child in Bangladesh who dies in a flood at the age of 8 and has never even heard the name "Jesus"?

The Biblical account of Jesus cannot be compatible with the account of Islam according to the Koran. The two are mutually exclusive. As I understand it, the fundamental difference that Christianity has with not only Islam but with ALL other religions is that ALL other religions base salvation and heaven (or whatever their comparable is i.e. Paradise, Reincarnation, ect...) is that Christianity is based on the freely given Grace of God thru the Sacrafice of Christ and not human-based works. (Mohammed Ali once spent over an hour signing autographs for a crowd somewhere, in much discomfort, and the reason he gave his interviewer was to 'earn his place' in heaven after life.)

I don't know about each and every example of who, what, when, ect...someone hears the news about Christ. But Jesus does make it clear that it is my responsibility to make HIS Word, Ways and Plan of Salvation well known and available to all I can. This is referred to as "The Great Commission." It is the common direction Evangelical Christians take in living their lives (for Christ.)

Did not mean to be 'flippant' on the last, just always feel 1. I put forth Biblical principles as relevant viewpoints in discussion 2. Often these are misunderstood as somehow me wanting to 'cram my beliefs' down others throats. I have no intention of doing this, challenge anyone to give one clear, actual example of where I have ever done this, but realize that many do feel threatened whenever Biblical principles are advanced. As such, what may come across as 'flippant' is actually my way of just saying the choice IS yours to do with as you want.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Ha! This takes the loss of 'personal responsibility' to a whole new level! Salvation by accepting Christ is supposed to be a personal choice by an individual allowed by 'free will.' But in your case, God created your brain and that brain cannot accept His existance, so your still covered right? Good Luck with that one at the judgement! (The last refers to the event referred to in the Bible, so if the Bible isn't true no worries, right?)

I haven't "Accepted Christ" because I don't believe in things based on faith alone. If I told you that tomorrow you, and everyone you know would receive $10,000,000 in your bank account, would you believe me? Why not?

That's how I view the premise that you must "accept Christ" if you want to go to heaven. I just don't buy it. My thought process won't let me.

BTW, it's "you're"

Good Luck with that one at the judgement! (The last refers to the event referred to in the Bible

I went to Christian school for 13 years and grew up in the Church. I have a very good understanding of the Christian Bible, and at about age 12 I started asking questions and could never receive sufficient answers. The only "religion" that I've really taken an interest in is Buddhism. If anyone would like to know more (there are a lot of misconceptions about it, I've found), check here: http://www.elizabethchurchofchrist.o.../buddhism.html

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

The Biblical account of Jesus cannot be compatible with the account of Islam according to the Koran. The two are mutually exclusive. As I understand it, the fundamental difference that Christianity has with not only Islam but with ALL other religions is that ALL other religions base salvation and heaven (or whatever their comparable is i.e. Paradise, Reincarnation, ect...) is that Christianity is based on the freely given Grace of God thru the Sacrafice of Christ and not human-based works. (Mohammed Ali once spent over an hour signing autographs for a crowd somewhere, in much discomfort, and the reason he gave his interviewer was to 'earn his place' in heaven after life.)

I will say that doing good deeds and being a good person makes a lot more sense as far as gaining entry to "heaven" than saying "I accept Jesus as my Savior"...

[cuervo72]

good deeds <=> good person

At least not in all cases.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

I don't know about each and every example of who, what, when, ect...someone hears the news about Christ. But Jesus does make it clear that it is my responsibility to make HIS Word, Ways and Plan of Salvation well known and available to all I can. This is referred to as "The Great Commission." It is the common direction Evangelical Christians take in living their lives (for Christ.)

I totally understand, being a former born again Christian myself (who was baptized at 12 and saved the week before). I just never understood how this can be the one true path as a great many people on earth probably die before even hearing the name "Jesus". It doesn't make sense to me. I know faith doesn't often make sense but it just reeks of elitism to say MY religion is the one that's right.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here...I do believe in God - I just take issue with man's interpretation of Him and the events of the Bible.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

good deeds <=> good person

At least not in all cases.

Of course not. By the same notion, neither does saying, "I accept Jesus as my Savior"

So this Christian god doesn't care how good of a person you are, just that you were raised in a country that allowed you to hear of the "one true god" huh?

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Not for me - I got two gold stars!!!!

Didn't you learn to share with the less fortunate in kindergarden?

I'll give you a green check if you give him one of your gold stars

(Is this how the Euro started? An insane bartering system based on silly deeds?)

SI

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

Of course not. By the same notion, neither does saying, "I accept Jesus as my Savior"

So this Christian god doesn't care how good of a person you are, just that you were raised in a country that allowed you to hear of the "one true god" huh?

FWIW, I'm not completely comfortable with this notion, either. But some of this may be that there is a difference between saying you've accepted Jesus as opposed to actually doing so.

(I generally don't believe that faith is something that needs to be shouted from the rooftops [Acknowledged, yes. Actively trumpeted, I'm not so sure]. Maybe this is because I have not been a steady churchgoer for a LONG time. But I've been more of the thought that religion is largely an internal process. If you are true to God [or when there are times when you are not], you know this, and God knows this. Ultimately you're not judged by your peers' opinions, but by a higher power.)

[Mac Howard]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

Of course not. By the same notion, neither does saying, "I accept Jesus as my Savior"

So this Christian god doesn't care how good of a person you are, just that you were raised in a country that allowed you to hear of the "one true god" huh?

It depends which flavour of Christianity you're dealing with. The bitter flavour of the god of your post is that of the Catholic church where access to heaven is through "God's Grace" and no one really knows what the criteria are. Good works are not the key because we're all evil anyway because of "original sin".

The Protestant flavour is much more to many people's taste where an individual is more at liberty to come up with his own criteria based on his own particular interpretation of the bible. This is so liberal in the Anglican church that it has been said that it's not necessary to believe in God to be an Anglican

[SlapBone]

Paul said it best:

Romans 1:16-32

16 ¶ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 ¶ because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,
30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;
32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

When you deny God you will believe all sorts of stupid things, including the leftist propagandist that started this thread.

[SlapBone]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Suppose Jesus was just a prophet. ?

Jesus was the son of God or he should be completely dismissed as a lunatic. The Jewish religious leaders in this passage knew exactly who Jesus was claiming to be:

John 8:51-59

51 ¶51 ¶ "Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death."
52 Then the Jews said to Him, "Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’
53 "Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Whom do You make Yourself out to be?"
54 Jesus answered, "If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God.
55 "Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word.
56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

The reason the Jews were debating with him is because they knew this is what Jesus was getting at. But imagine how shocked they were when he used these words. They were so shocked they were about to execute him on the spot because these are the same words God used to describe himself to Moses:

Ex 3:14 And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’"

Sorry but it is ridiculous to say that Jesus was anything other than God himself because it is well documented that this is what he claimed to be. Whether you believe this claim is between you and God.