Kansas City-Denver (Sunday Night Game)

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

It didn't occur to me until the week before the season that this was the same Quentin Griffin who I loved to watch run in Big XII games and never understood why he was picked so low in the draft, especially after that 300 or whatever yard game.

He wasn't even recruited coming out of high school in Texas. Bob Stoops offered him a late scholarship after John Blake got fired in 1999, but that was only because they were scrambling for leftovers.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by NoMyths

No, but I was rephrasing your "decisive" vs "moves", which seemed like a fair difference. Or are you saying he's a "moves" vs. a "moves"?

Griffen seems to make 1 move and go with it. It doesn't make him a power back.

Sanders would dance around in the backfield more. It led to more 3-4 yard losses, but it also led to more 40+ yard gains.

There were a couple particular plays tonight where Sanders would not have 'given up' on it like Griffen did.

And I only said that Griffen was more decisive.

The obvious comparison is their downfield running, they both have the ability to take it all the way once they're into the linebackers/secondary. Most backs can't fake defenders out of their shoes like that.

[NoMyths]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

So no young player can ever be compared to a vetern or retired player EVER?

[sarcasm]Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying by saying it's premature to compare a 2nd year back to Barry Sanders. [/sarcasm]

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

So no young player can ever be compared to a vetern or retired player EVER?

I didn't even touch that because I thought it was too ridiculous to address.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

So no young player can ever be compared to a vetern or retired player EVER?

Well, I think it's way too early. He's had one good game? And they say how he's like Barry? I just don't like these comparisons coming so early in a career.

[kingfc22]

Come on Shannahan (sp?) give the ball to Griffin so that he can score.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

Well, I think it's way too early. He's had one good game? And they say how he's like Barry? I just don't like these comparisons coming so early in a career.

This is his second great game. He lit up Indy in the regular season last year.

[NoMyths]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

This is his second great game. He lit up Indy in the regular season last year.

You're right...two great games definitely warrants a comparison to the greatest finesse back of all time.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by NoMyths

You're right...two great games definitely warrants a comparison to the greatest finesse back of all time.

Ok, tell us when we're allowed to compare things.

[MikeVic]

So he's had two rgeat games against the mighty defences of KC and Indy... that doesn't mean he should be compared to Barry. I think Quentin can be a really good RB, but I don't like commentators comparing young guys like this in their second game.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

Ok, tell us when we're allowed to compare things.

I second that.

I definetly think people can be compared on the basis of styles or stature of players. Both Griffin and Sanders had a low center of gravity which help(ed) break tackles. He may not be any good, but the comparision is valid.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by MikeVic

So he's had two rgeat games against the mighty defences of KC and Indy... that doesn't mean he should be compared to Barry. I think Quentin can be a really good RB, but I don't like commentators comparing young guys like this in their second game.

It's just a comparison guys. They're saying "his style is very reminiscent of a Barry Sanders" not "this guy is as good as Barry Sanders."

[ISiddiqui]

Exactly... I mean why can't we compare styles without someone thinking we are saying that young player is just as good as the legend?

[NoMyths]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

Ok, tell us when we're allowed to compare things.

hehe...okay. If Griffin can string together half a season worth of great games, or at least a highlight-worthy play in most every game this season, then talk to me about greatness. Barry Sanders--and I have to believe you never watched him play to be seriously arguing that Griffin, in the first game of his second season, with around 350 yds to his name coming into it, is even on the all-time list...let alone as great as Sanders.

It's fine to make comparisons. Compare Griffin to some of the other great backs in the league if you'd like. But you need longevity and a long list of great performances to start talking about players like Sanders.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

It's just a comparison guys. They're saying "his style is very reminiscent of a Barry Sanders" not "this guy is as good as Barry Sanders."

I'd also like to point out that Barry Sanders was a "can't miss" 1st round draft pick coming out of college. Griffen was a relatively unheralded 4th round pick.

[NoMyths]

(for the other comments):

There are plenty of finesse backs who are and have played to compare Griffin to other than the all-time greatest. Pick one of them.

[TLK]

you guys can compare any player to any great from the past..... just leave Barry out of the coversation.... he's in a league of his own

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by NoMyths

and I have to believe you never watched him play to be seriously arguing that Griffin, in the first game of his second season, with around 350 yds to his name coming into it, is even on the all-time list...let alone as great as Sanders.

Do you have a problem comprehending the written or spoken word? No one at any point said Griffin was as great as Barry Sanders. The announcers compared their running styles, I said I thought it was a valid comparison. At what point did I (or they) put Griffin on the "all-time list?"

it's fine to make comparisons. Compare Griffin to some of the other great backs in the league if you'd like. But you need longevity and a long list of great performances to start talking about players like Sanders.

No, I don't need to wait even 5 minutes to compare. You don't think the scouts who looked at him mentioned Barry Sanders in the reports to their GM's?

It's just a comparison. I'm not saying Griffin is as good or better than Sanders, just saying he looks similiar when holding a football and running. Nothing more, nothing less.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

Do you have a problem comprehending the written or spoken word? No one at any point said Griffin was as great as Barry Sanders. The announcers compared their running styles, I said I thought it was a valid comparison. At what point did I (or they) put Griffin on the "all-time list?"



No, I don't need to wait even 5 minutes to compare. You don't think the scouts who looked at him mentioned Barry Sanders in the reports to their GM's?

It's just a comparison. I'm not saying Griffin is as good or better than Sanders, just saying he looks similiar when holding a football and running. Nothing more, nothing less.

I've got to agree here. I remember watching Griffin at OU and thinking his style reminded me of Barry Sanders.

Though somehow I was able to do this without thinking that Griffin would be one of the greatest runningbacks of all time.

[Draft Dodger]

didn't watch any preseason football, but I was pleasantly surprised by Pat Summerall tonight. I was expecting him to be pretty bad, but I thought he was fine - better than I've seen him in a couple of years (wasn't he the first one to notice the yardage wasn't marked off?). He almost made the other two retards tolerable, which is not something I can say about Patrick.

[NoMyths]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

Do you have a problem comprehending the written or spoken word? No one at any point said Griffin was as great as Barry Sanders. The announcers compared their running styles, I said I thought it was a valid comparison. At what point did I (or they) put Griffin on the "all-time list?"

No, I don't need to wait even 5 minutes to compare. You don't think the scouts who looked at him mentioned Barry Sanders in the reports to their GM's?

It's just a comparison. I'm not saying Griffin is as good or better than Sanders, just saying he looks similiar when holding a football and running. Nothing more, nothing less.

I have few problems comprehending the written word, but more problem comprehending how you could call a comparison of Griffin's running style to Sanders' "fair." The sample size simply isn't large enough. It's like calling every runner who isn't a pure power back similar to Sanders' style.

Griffin may turn out to be very similar to Sanders. Or other teams may figure out how to neutralize him, something they weren't able to do very often to the Hall-of-Famer. We'll have to wait and see. Right now he looks very promising, but I haven't seen anything he's done that made me believe a human couldn't do it, which Barry accomplished regularly.

[ISiddiqui]

to be seriously arguing that Griffin, in the first game of his second season, with around 350 yds to his name coming into it, is even on the all-time list...let alone as great as Sanders.

:head-banging-on-wall:

You seem to be missing the point entrirely. No one is saying he is as great as Sanders, people are just saying that his style of running reminds people of how Sanders used to run.

I understand Sanders was probably your favorite player, but you are looking utterly silly here. Farve is my favorite player, but I can admit when certain players remind me of his style of play.

[ISiddiqui]

ore problem comprehending how you could call a comparison of Griffin's running style to Sanders' "fair." The sample size simply isn't large enough

:head-banging-on-wall-again:

A sample size of his STYLE OF RUNNING isn't large enough? Are you smoking crack or something? I guarentee you that Griffin won't be changing how he runs anytime soon unless he blows out a knee or something.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

didn't watch any preseason football, but I was pleasantly surprised by Pat Summerall tonight. I was expecting him to be pretty bad, but I thought he was fine - better than I've seen him in a couple of years (wasn't he the first one to notice the yardage wasn't marked off?). He almost made the other two retards tolerable, which is not something I can say about Patrick.

He had a rough first 5 minutes, but kind of settled in. I love hearing him call a game, All of my hardcore football days have come with him as an announcer, so when my brain hears him - it just feels like football.

Theisman is absolutely intolerbale. He'll contradict himself 100 times in a single game as long as it makes him sound like he knowns what he's talking about in any given moment.

[NoMyths]

Sanders isn't my favorite player (heh, I don't think I have one), but I never saw a player do what he did on a football field. I understand where you and cth are coming from, but my statements are all coming from that initial comment of calling a comparison to Sanders fair. I and others are simply pointing out that its a bit trickier than that. You've probably done a fair job of extending the statement to merely mean similarities in finesse running style, and seem to have difficulty understanding why those of us who watched Barry's whole career think it's premature to say that Griffin's style is as effective (i.e. as stylistically similar) as Sanders'.

[cthomer5000]

He may not understand the the definition of the word 'comparison.'

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by NoMyths

it's premature to say that Griffin's style is as effective (i.e. as stylistically similar) as Sanders'.

Then it's a good thing that no one said that.

And you may be the only main alive who thinks a runner's YPC is part of his 'style.'

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

They're driving again... I think it's safe to say Gunther Cunningham wasn't the answer to the K.C. defensive woes.

My thoughts exactly. To be honest, I'm surprised. I thought the new scheme could mask the horrible players they have on defense for a few weeks before they were exposed again. They are still just horrible. I guess being aggressive means you FALL FOR THE SAME play fake 20 times, even if Denver is averaging 20 yards a play everytime Jake rolls out to that side.

They have TWO major weaknesses they need to address for the last two offseasons:

1) Defense
2) WR

Instead, they decided the D coordinator would be the big pickup they needed. Jake helped em out with a free 7 and Q took 7 off of the board for us. . . and it still wasn't a close game despite that 14 point swing. (and I'm not even going to talk about the first call on Kennison, one of the worst calls all day)

Priest is a special, special player. At least they have that going for them.

As for Q, if he didn't take one move and then turn it upfield, he wouldn't be the starting RB on this team. Shanahan, for all of his faults (and there are many), knows his system when it comes to running backs. He coaches them all to do the same thing and he doesn't tolerate guys who want to do it differently. I remember Portis making a "triple move" in an exhibition game his first year. He was ripped on the sidelines.

The biggest stories of this game besides the obvious (ie: the KC defense being horrid, the trade looking good for Denver and Washington, etc.) were:

1) George Foster playing well. Not a good defense, but it was his first start. He looks like he can play a little bit.

2) Ashley Lelie having a huge game. 4 catches, 88 yards. Didn't have a drop. Made some solid blocks. The announcers were talking about how Denver needed to find a WR other than Smith at the end of this game. . . forgetting Lelie was the leading Denver receiver in the game. If he plays the way he did tonight this year, this offense has a chance to be very, very good.

[ISiddiqui]

Stylistically similar does NOT necessarily mean as effective as someone else. You can be almost exactly the same stylistically as someone else, but could be much worse in effect than him.

[cthomer5000]

I can understand KC's non-pursuit of a big-time wideout. I think they figured 4-5 solid WR's would work out as well as 1 great one (think New England). Unfortunately injuries have killed them, and now they basically have no depth and no standouts - not a good position to be in.

Defensively, I guess they really believed that Cunningham could at least get them into the 'not embarassing' range. That doesn't look good right now.

If I'm Denver i'm pretty excited right now. If they wideouts can step up and Plummer can avoid throwing left-handed, they're a legit Super Bowl contender.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

I can understand KC's non-pursuit of a big-time wideout. I think they figured 4-5 solid WR's would work out as well as 1 great one (think New England). Unfortunately injuries have killed them, and now they basically have no depth and no standouts - not a good position to be in.

Defensively, I guess they really believed that Cunningham could at least get them into the 'not embarassing' range. That doesn't look good right now.

If I'm Denver i'm pretty excited right now. If they wideouts can step up and Plummer can avoid throwing left-handed, they're a legit Super Bowl contender.

Long way to go CT, long way to go, but I'm pretty happy right now. The run defense looked weak at times (of course, the Chiefs can make anyone look bad with that line), but the pass defense was spectacular. (even disregarding the WR, Tony G and Priest didn't hurt us at all in the passing game)

The two biggest questions in my mind for the Broncos this year was the #2 WR and the Chiefs defense. The #2 WR makes the offense better. If the Chiefs defense is even average, they'd win 12 again and it'd be incredibly difficult for Denver to win the division.

Well, Lelie played well and the Chiefs D isn't average and it really isn't even below average. . . it is poor to pathetic. Good start, very good start.

[NoMyths]

*shakes head*

Okay, this is my final word on the subject. Let's toss out Griffin's rookie season since he was mostly backing up Portis and figure that this is his first 'real' season. If he keeps up this kind of production against teams that don't return one of the worst rushing defenses in the league, and puts up numbers similar to Sanders' 1,470 yard / 5.3 ypc / 14 TD season, then we can start talking about how his style is similar to Sanders. If not, let's just talk about how his style is similar to, say, Tiki Barber, who had a similar rookie season.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Stylistically similar does NOT necessarily mean as effective as someone else. You can be almost exactly the same stylistically as someone else, but could be much worse in effect than him.

Exactly.

I can say David Carr has a quick release and strong arm like Dan Marino did. Those are characteristics that both have, and it's a somewhat fair comparison to how they throw. But saying two quarterbacks have the same style of throwing the football is not even remotely close to saying they're one equal levels.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by NoMyths

*shakes head*

Okay, this is my final word on the subject. Let's toss out Griffin's rookie season since he was mostly backing up Portis and figure that this is his first 'real' season. If he keeps up this kind of production against teams that don't return one of the worst rushing defenses in the league, and puts up numbers similar to Sanders' 1,470 yard / 5.3 ypc / 14 TD season, then we can start talking about how his style is similar to Sanders. If not, let's just talk about how his style is similar to, say, Tiki Barber, who had a similar rookie season.

But they're not talking numbers. They're saying they're similar in how they play the game, in this instance their style of running the football, not similar in the results they have playing the game.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by NoMyths

puts up numbers similar to Sanders' 1,470 yard / 5.3 ypc / 14 TD season, then we can start talking about how his style is similar to Sanders.

I'm talking about sytle, you're talking about production.

If not, let's just talk about how his style is similar to, say, Tiki Barber, who had a similar rookie season.

Even if I find nothing similar about the way the two run the ball? How does that make any sense?

[cthomer5000]

When holding a ball and running, Quentin Griffin looks similar to Barry Sanders. That's all I'm saying.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by NoMyths

*shakes head*

Okay, this is my final word on the subject. Let's toss out Griffin's rookie season since he was mostly backing up Portis and figure that this is his first 'real' season. If he keeps up this kind of production against teams that don't return one of the worst rushing defenses in the league, and puts up numbers similar to Sanders' 1,470 yard / 5.3 ypc / 14 TD season, then we can start talking about how his style is similar to Sanders. If not, let's just talk about how his style is similar to, say, Tiki Barber, who had a similar rookie season.

You just don't get it. They aren't talking statistics. They are talking about who the guy reminds them of.

He doesn't run similar to Tiki Barber. Barber is much more physical than Q. Q is more like Barry in how he runs. Low center of gravity, gets lost behind blockers, deadly in the open field. Sanders was faster, made more moves and was more powerful than Q is (or will ever be).

Here is the thing. . . if Q runs for 1470 yards, 5.3 per carry, and 14 TD's he still won't be as good as Sanders. The numbers with this are irrelevant and you just can't seem to grasp that.

FWIW: He reminds me a lot of Darrin Nelson, an old Viking RB more than he does of Sanders. Still, I see where the Sanders comparisons come from.

[cthomer5000]

guy a: That chick looks like Julia Roberts!

guy b: Until that chick has had 10 movies hit #1 at the box office, that comparison is ridiculous.

--edit--
bucc: they are both dogs.

[NoMyths]

[Addendum to final word since I have a different thought on the game, or something ]

Fine. I'm simply saying that I don't see the similarity, and trying to illustrate that by saying I don't think we have enough evidence to see whether or not his style is similar enough to Barry Sanders to be as productive, and thus it's premature to trot out that comparison; further, that there are other slash-style backs that Griffin may be more properly compared than the greatest to every play his position, as his statistics may bear out. This is probably because I have never seen a back holding a ball and running that looked anything like Barry Sanders holding a ball and running. That's just me.

And the acting comparison would be more accurately stated:

Guy A: That chick acts similarly to Meryl Streep!
Guy B: Uh, this is one film. I've seen little to indicate she's actually an actor of the same school or caliber as Streep. Maybe she got lucky with some improvisation. How about we wait and see if she's as good in a few more films before trotting out Meryl. Right now she could be Hilary Swank pulling a Boys Don't Cry instead of an Affair of the Necklace.

Since we've said our pieces, let's let it lie. I see your position, you see mine.

Other thought: I sure wish the Chiefs had upgraded their defense. This is going to be another also-ran season, I'm afraid.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by TroyF

You just don't get it. They aren't talking statistics. They are talking about who the guy reminds them of.

Yep... If Q only runs for 500 yards with a 2.3 YPA, I'll still say his running style is similar to Sanders because that is what he looks like when running. Stats have NOTHING to sdo with it. Statistica evidence has NOTHING to do with it. Him playing more games have NOTHING to do with it. His running style won't change in the next few games.

[vex]

NoMyths, you REALLY just don't get it.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Jeb Putzier reminds me of a young Dave Moore.

Edit: Joke.

[TroyF]

Fine. I'm simply saying that I don't see the similarity, and trying to illustrate that by saying I don't think we have enough evidence to see whether or not his style is similar enough to Barry Sanders to be as productive

Last time for me. . . We aren't talking about "productive" We are talking about style. The two aren't even closely related.

In your Streep comparison, we wouldn't be talking about acting ability, we'd be saying something like this:

That new actress reminds me of Meryl Streep, she looks a lot like her and here movements are similar to Meryl.

We wouldn't even be attempting to compare the two actresses in terms of Oscars or top ten box office hits. We wouldn't be attempting to say the other actress is AS GOOD as Meryl. We'd be saying that's who she reminds us of.

Hell, one of my friends reminds me of Tiger Woods. His movements, facial expressions and even voice are a dead ringer for Tiger. Sadly, he sucks at golf. I still think he looks like Tiger. (and I'm not the only one)

For five seconds, get the statistical/productivity arguement out of your head. You'll understand where the people are coming from better and you won't have a heart attack.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

When holding a ball and running, Quentin Griffin looks similar to Barry Sanders. That's all I'm saying.

I would agree with this

[Blackadar]

Of course, it seems like every Denver back is overrated.

Griffin is just another in a long line of reasons (Mike Anderson, Portis, Olandis Gary) why Terrell Davis doesn't belong in the HOF.

[JAG]

NoMyths, the other reason why we use famous players like Barry for comparison is beacuse everyone knows where you're coming from. We don't say 'Quentin Griffin has a running style similar to Bert Kachopek' because the next 8 posts would be a "Who's Bert Kachopek?" and "What does he run like?" Then you have to explain he was a running back for the Chiefs in 1979 who blew out his knee after 1219 career rushing yards, but ran with a low center of gravity and is good in the open field.

Whereas if you say "He runs like Barry Sanders", everyone instantly knows what you're talking about, assuming they did not live in a cave during the 90's.

[gstelmack]

Back to the announcers: please pardon me for not being quite up on who is who, but this little bit just floored me last night. Early in the game one of the announcers (Maguire?) was talking about a KC linebacker and how he commented that Priest Holmes was the fastest player in football with the ball in his hands. Sometime in the third quarter, Holmes breaks a nice one, and a different announcer (Summerall?) comments that Priest Holmes is the fastest player in football with the ball in his hands (spoken like he just made the observation), and that some players think so as well.

I just found it hilarious that it got introduced as a whole new concept as if they had not spent a few minutes discussing it in the first quarter.

[MikeVic]

I brought up my dislike of hearing comparisons like Sanders-Griffin and Elway-Plummer because I just hate hearing them.

I understand they aren't talking about stats and production, but just hearing something like Griffin sees holes and runs similarly to Barry Sanders, or Plummer is the closest thing the Broncos have had to Elway, sours me.

I can see what they're talking about with Griffin, but when I hear Griffin-Sanders, I can't help but compare careers. Even though they're not talking about stats and production. I also don't like when people talk about Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan. I can see the difference in comparing running styles and comparing production, but I still link the two when I hear either one.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Reuben Droughns reminds me of Charles Way.

(not really)

[ISiddiqui]

please pardon me for not being quite up on who is who, but this little bit just floored me last night. Early in the game one of the announcers (Maguire?) was talking about a KC linebacker and how he commented that Priest Holmes was the fastest player in football with the ball in his hands. Sometime in the third quarter, Holmes breaks a nice one, and a different announcer (Summerall?) comments that Priest Holmes is the fastest player in football with the ball in his hands (spoken like he just made the observation), and that some players think so as well.

I believe it was Summerall who brought it up later in the game. He's seriously going senile and I think Theismann and Maguire humor him at times because he is a respected announcer in the twilight of his life.