Staking My Claim: A Poker Dynasty

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Yes, I have a couple of names there - including this one. She plays there, too -- once she was at a table with sabotai, but something prevented her from saying hello on my behalf.

Usually when I play ring games, I don't pay attention to the table unless it's my turn, and I turn off the chat (all I see is dealer). I find I play a lot better when I'm not paying attention to the table. (So far, I've only played .50/1 tables, so I don't want to try to read those horrible players...bad things happen when I try to do that. )

[Subby]

You seem like you are playing less...is that the case?

[QuikSand]

Maybe.

Last night, I declined an invitation to a $40 buy-in tournament, deciding to stay at home instead.

But in general, the decline of Rick's game (tournament every two weeks, with a solid side game to follow) has placed a real dent in my schedule. Plus, the addition of two special "one time" tournaments in teh last few weeks served to overstate my regular play a bit.

I'm thinking about playing in the Pink Game tonight, if I am not too tired. I feel like that game is pretty tough, and if I am not 100% I don't want to be there risking several hundred dollars. But I do feel like playing there is a good exercise for my game.

Also, these last two weeks (and the week ahead) are pretty stressful at work -- one I get to this point next week, I will be in a much more relaxed mode.

[primelord]

Just wondering if there was an update from the Pink Game

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

I give a call to Mrs. Q at home… she asks how late I have to work. Why? “’Cause you and I are going to play poker tonight!”

I can't figure out who hit the bigger jackpot, SkyDog or QuikSand, but both of these guys are blessed with wonderful spouses.

[QuikSand]

I blew off the pink game this week. Got home late and feeling pretty pissed off - in no mood to go try to take on some tough players that night.

May not play again until Mrs. Q and I head up to Atlantic City next Saturday, for another long day at the Borgata.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

I can't figure out who hit the bigger jackpot, SkyDog or QuikSand, but both of these guys are blessed with wonderful spouses.

Affirmative from here. Met her while watching football on New Year's Day, with a roomful of guys... I'm lucky she decided that I (among the several who expressed interest) was the one she wanted to go out with.

[Vince]

I am immensely enjoying this thread, and I really feel like simply reading it improves my poker game.

[QuikSand]

The Borgata – 17 April

Well, after a little bit of time away from any actual card tables (I have been playing online a bit, with mixed results) Mrs. Q and I head out for a long-planed visit to the Borgata, the newest super-premium casino in Atlantic City.

Turns out, as we are walking in, they are just closing up entries for a big no-limit hold ‘em tournament, sponsored by Cigar Aficionado magazine. With a little more foreknowledge, I probably would have played in the event ($500 buy-in) but I passed and instead just dropped into the main poker room. After looking at the event setup, I’m glad I passed… the setup called for increased blinds every ten minutes, which means that they seemed more focused on getting things over with than with really allowing play to unfold naturally. (I hope this isn’t becoming more common – I don’t like that trend if it is one)

Anyway, Mrs. Q and I are both able to walk right into a set at tables of 6/12 hold ‘em, while our third wheel heads for the 3/6 tables. He is basically a novice player – came with us here once before, won a hundred bucks or so playing 2/4, and now seems hooked. More on him later.

My first session is pretty uneventful. I’m a pretty tight player, and so I tend to do a lot of watching. Unfortunately, this was compounded by my first four or five times around the table, as I got practically nothing worth playing at all. I am pretty patient, but this was stretching my limits. But of course, when I did get cards, they were raising cards – and when I raised pre-flop with AQs, the whole table folded. Later, I reraised pre-flop with KK, and again the whole table, folded, even the original raiser. Sure sign that I have established a tight reputation, even in a pretty short time. I used that for a while, and won a couple of pots that I shouldn‘t have – and got back the amount that I had shaved away while watching for the first few rounds.

My best hand of the session came while playing a fairly weak ace – Ad6d. The flop works out very well for me: 6-6-5. I get a player betting into me, and I just call his bet on the flop. When an ace lands on the turn, I raise him… and he folds. Looking back, I think I probably missed at least one bet, and maybe two bets, this way. My sixes full were almost certainly a winner, and allowing him to bet out on the river would give me a shot to capture at least another $12 from him – maybe $24 if he called my raise at that point.

Pretty uneventful, and by the time we break for dinner, I am back to right about where I started, oddly enough down by almost exactly what I think I lost on my turned full house.

First session recap:

OUT: $220
IN: $194


After a leisurely dinner at the Borgata buffet (and I do enjoy a casino buffet… I mused to my fellow players that it might be the pure and distilled essence of America: a little bit from all around the world, then all combined together and elevated to offensive levels of excess), we are headed back to the tables.

Mrs. Q and I again are playing 6/12. At my table, things are a little weird. My first hand to play, after being there no more than two minutes, is AKs. I decide to raise with it after there are four callers ahead of me, and we have lots of company for the hand. I bet out despite rags on the board – feeling like I can use the power I established with the pre-flop raise to represent a big pair. I get three callers. When the turn makes another scattered card, it looks like this hand should be ugly – I decide to stick with my betting, and lead out again. I get two callers – and figure that I am probably beat here. There’s no easy straight and no flush, but I have to think my ace high is weak – unless I pull a pair with the river card. It’s a king – and now I have top pair, top kicker. I decide to check the river, but my kings are good enough to take the hand anyway – for a pretty nice pot.

However, for the next two hours, all the attention at the table is on the player on my immediate right. It takes only a short while to see that he plays a lot of hands – in a typical ten hands, he’s probably raising three and calling four or five more. That itself is not unusual – we’ve all played against maniacs before. What is unusual is that this guy is winning. And winning. And winning. It gets to be unreal – I didn’t start counting until maybe the sixth or seventh time he hit a straight or a flush, but in the course of 2 ½ hours, this guy won at least 12 pots with straights or flushes. Maybe that doesn’t sound all that eye-popping as I write it here in text, but I assure you it was staggering to the table.

When I sat down, the guy on my right had somewhere around $300 in chips on the table. When I left within three hours, he was playing off a similarly sized stack, sitting in front of two racks of red chips. So, he had earned around $1,000 in two hours at the 6/12 table… in the vicinity of eighty big bets.

Thing is, when it happened like that it really messed up the table. Players who were playing aggressively with big hands suddenly got timid – I saw a player who had a good hand (top two pair, kings and jacks) check the river when a five landed, because he was horrified that the lucky maniac had caught his low straight by using the 4-5-8 available on the board. And most of the table expected to see the 6-7 drop out of the maniac’s hands, think – though that particular time it didn’t. But showdown after showdown, it was uncanny to see that this guy was rivering his gutshot straights, making flushes with his 7-3 suited, and all that sort of thing. It was truly unbelievable – the whole table was dumbfounded.

I decided that this environment wasn’t suitable for my continued play, and put in for a table change to Mrs. Q’s table. At this point, I was down almost two hundred, and was steaming a little bit from a couple tough losses to the maniac. Finally, I get moved – right into the seat on Mrs. Q’s right.


Mrs. Q, despite being a Mrs., is a pretty independent woman. And when playing poker, she plays that up. The wedding ring comes off, and she drops into semi-southern belle mode. Occasionally she will play up the “dumb girl” angle, but usually she is just a solid, selective player. In my judgment, she lacks a little bit of necessary aggression, and that is hurting her at the more serious levels – but all told, she holds her own.

With me at the table, I’m just some guy to her. We have never been immediate neighbors before, but nothing unusual here – she talks with me a little bit, but is mostly being engaged by three other men on our side of the table – two young med students who are just finishing school, and one older fellow on my right who is making great pains to talk around me to the attractive woman on my left.

Anyway, I probably should have posted my chips and taken a walk, but instead I sat there and watched the table for 30 minutes or so, before finding much to play. Looks like there is a loose-passive player at the opposite end – people are commenting that he has seen practically every single flop in two hours at the table. Good news. The rest of the table is mixed, but seems pretty decent.

I get over my funk, and start feeling better. A good hand certainly helps, and I catch top two pair and make it hold up even after my raise on the flop gets called. I go on to win two more hand sin pretty rapid succession, and dig my way out of the hole from the first after-dinner table. So, I’m just about back where I started.

A while later, I get another somewhat weak ace, which I choose to play from late position – an unsuited A9. In fashion eerily similar to the hand I described from earlier in the day, I flop trips with an ace kicker – a monster hand. This time, though, when my ace comes up on the turn, I simply call the bet, and wait until the river to make my raise. It works perfectly – the lead bettor had a pocket pair of jacks (but did not raise pre-flop) and was way behind my nines full, but felt strong enough to call the raise. I like that outcome much better.

I pick up another big hand, getting a boat on a marginal hand – after playing K2s on the button. My twos full beats the same player who had bet into my nines full a while before – and this was probably our fourth showdown together, with me wining all of them. He’s a jolly guy, but is getting pretty ticked at me. However, it seemed that every time he lost a pot to me, he won one right back from someone else – keeping him around at the table for a while, which was good for everyone.

Later in the evening, after putting a dent in m stack with some justified chases that didn’t work, I win a very large pot when I river a third jack, winning with trips. I had to make two close calls in deciding whether to call a raise on both the flop and turn, but I think I made the correct decision each time, and ended up getting one of my outs on the river for the biggest takedown of the night. And that got me back ahead on the evening.

It’s a fun table, and we get into a nice groove that lasts until we have to break for the drive home. It ends up being a nine hour after-dinner session all told, and at the end of the line, I pick up enough in profits to pay for the gas and buffet bills. Not too bad a result, and a pretty fun time all around.

Second session wrap-up:

OUT: $320
IN: $410

Mrs. Q also ends the day ahead, by about $140 or so. She caught three boats in the span of about 45 minutes, and earned the nickname “love boat” at the table, where she had become, understandably, a very popular player. So, she goes home with pretty good feel for her game, and a few more dollars in her stake.

[Celeval]

QS - You and Mrs. Q seem quite the pair - pun intended. How did the rest of the table react when the two of you went off together? Or did you?

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Celeval

QS - You and Mrs. Q seem quite the pair - pun intended. How did the rest of the table react when the two of you went off together? Or did you?

No, we left separately. I peeled off first, and then about a round later she did.

As she was leaving, one of the med students asked her "are you driving all the way home alone?" She answered, completely truthfully, "no ... my husband is around here somewhere."

[Subby]

Great story...

I have never played b&m poker before - what is the procedure for playing once you get to the casino? Do you just go and sit down and play?

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Subby

I have never played b&m poker before - what is the procedure for playing once you get to the casino? Do you just go and sit down and play?

The casino have staff who manage the games. In addition to dealers, of course, there is typically a front office of some sort, where you express your interest in playing a given level. If there is a seat available at that level, they will direct you to a seat. Otherwise, you may have to wait on a list until a seat opens at the level you desire.

Other than that, not a lot different than online. There are a variety of protocols and customs to pick up, but nothing too dramatic that can't be absorbed by just paying a little attention. Example: first time casino players always want to reach out and grab the chips they just won... but that's the dealer's job, to push them to you.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

He is basically a novice player – came with us here once before, won a hundred bucks or so playing 2/4, and now seems hooked. More on him later.

I was hoping for a good story here.

[primelord]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

My first hand to play, after being there no more than two minutes, is AKs. I decide to raise with it after there are four callers ahead of me, and we have lots of company for the hand. I bet out despite rags on the board – feeling like I can use the power I established with the pre-flop raise to represent a big pair. I get three callers. When the turn makes another scattered card, it looks like this hand should be ugly – I decide to stick with my betting, and lead out again. I get two callers – and figure that I am probably beat here. There’s no easy straight and no flush, but I have to think my ace high is weak – unless I pull a pair with the river card. It’s a king – and now I have top pair, top kicker. I decide to check the river, but my kings are good enough to take the hand anyway – for a pretty nice pot.

Quik,

I am confused by this play. Unless you were hoping to induce a bluff to check raise it looks like you missed a bet or two on the end. Unless one of the two callers hit an unlikely Kx two pair you are almost certainly ahead and are likely to be called down by someone who made top or middle pair before the river.

I guess I am just wondering why you would keep firing out on the flop and turn, but then back off when you hit your hand on the river. Was there something in the play of your two callers that lead you to believe you may be beat?

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by primelord

Quik,

I am confused by this play. Unless you were hoping to induce a bluff to check raise it looks like you missed a bet or two on the end. Unless one of the two callers hit an unlikely Kx two pair you are almost certainly ahead and are likely to be called down by someone who made top or middle pair before the river.

I guess I am just wondering why you would keep firing out on the flop and turn, but then back off when you hit your hand on the river. Was there something in the play of your two callers that lead you to believe you may be beat?

Well, with so many rags out there on the board, my concern was that someone had been calling my bets with one of those pairs -- sixes, eights, fours, whatever. When my king hit, I figured that it was a reasonable possibility that this was a hit for at least one such person -- staying in with a pre-flop raise, they almost certainly have a good card to go with their runt -- maybe AXs or KXs, I'm thinking.

Sure, in retrospect, I could have bet out again there... but I tend to be a little circumspect when betting on the river. Anyone who just got very strong by the king (as opposed to "pretty strong" like I got) would have an easy play to trap me here, as I had shown strength the whole way.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by digamma

I was hoping for a good story here.

Not much of a good story - sorry to bait the hook there.

Our friend busted out at about 2:00 am -- he's not a very experienced player, and also doesn't have the "disposable income" that Mrs. Q and I enjoy, so this was a little disconcerting. But, he didn't seem too upset.

Later, Mrs. Q told me that he had confided that not only did he lose the cash he brought with him, but he also lost a withdrawal from the ATM - meaning he was relly tapped out on the day. He wore it well, but it must have been a terrible day.

[primelord]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Well, with so many rags out there on the board, my concern was that someone had been calling my bets with one of those pairs -- sixes, eights, fours, whatever. When my king hit, I figured that it was a reasonable possibility that this was a hit for at least one such person -- staying in with a pre-flop raise, they almost certainly have a good card to go with their runt -- maybe AXs or KXs, I'm thinking.

Sure, in retrospect, I could have bet out again there... but I tend to be a little circumspect when betting on the river. Anyone who just got very strong by the king (as opposed to "pretty strong" like I got) would have an easy play to trap me here, as I had shown strength the whole way.

Fair enough. It just seems like you let hands like pocket 9's or the guys with Axs off the hook for the last bet. Especially since they can't be sure that K even helped you since you were firing out the whole way. I was just curious what your approach was.

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

It’s a king – and now I have top pair, top kicker. I decide to check the river, but my kings are good enough to take the hand anyway – for a pretty nice pot.

You should value bet the river here, as you will collect money from worse hands much more often than you will be beaten.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Vegas Vic

You should value bet the river here, as you will collect money from worse hands much more often than you will be beaten.

I see the logic, of course. In my mind at the time it was a close call... actually, I think I was more concerned about landing an ace than the king. Regardless... point well taken.

[QuikSand]

The Game Formerly Known as the Pink Game – 20 April

So, the sponsors of the weekly $7.50/$15.00 “pink game” have apparently merged clientele with another nearby game, and are now going to host a weekly $4/$8 game on Tuesdays. This week was their second offering, and my first attendance.

The player group is mixed – we get one full table for most of the night, and there are three players there I know from Rick’s tournaments and other games, along with the three hosts whom I know from this site. Pretty decent field – with a full rake on the pots, I expect it will be tough to grind out a win here.

I don’t have a lot of exciting details to share – other than I generally felt very good about my play. This game continued the house’s tradition of people talking pretty openly about their hands, which I still find a little puzzling.

I got pushed out of a pot I would have won – and had to think a good deal about that one. I was playing Q8 on the big blind, and was in against two players. With a flop of 4-4-8, I decide to bet out – and I get raised by the player from middle position. The small blind (a loose player) and I both call the raise. I check to the raiser on the turn (a 9) and he surprises me with a check. On the river (a J), I am now worried about the overcards – and I decide to check. The raiser bets, and the small blind calls. I decide to lay down my eights (seeing plenty of hard that easily beat me) and am surprised to see a showdown of pocket fives lose to pocket sixes. In retrospect, I think the checks on the turn ruled out a really strong hand, and the fact that no BIG overcard came should have given me confidence to bet out on the river – but alas, it was the only hand where I stewed about my own decision-making.

I stewed a bit as I made it three bets pre-flop with pocket kings, isolated head-up with the original raiser, and ended up watching him get runner-runner to make a wheel with his 3-4 (!?!?) to beat my kings. I don’t understand how he could call my bet on the flop under any circumstances – he knows I’m a selective player, and I reraised him pre-flop (which should indicate a very strong hand). With a flop of A-9-3, and my bet – how can he put me on anything other than a pretty strong ace or a pocket pair? Regardless, he calls with his three twice, as he pulls a 2 and a 5 to get his low straight. At least he did me the odd courtesy of showing me his hand when he bet out on the river and I hesitated before folding.

It was a pretty tough game overall, but despite the memorable beats, I came away ahead on the night. Not a huge victory, but I felt like I was playing well, generally making good decisions, and mixing up my play when needed. Decent haul, and a good boost to my attitude.

OUT: $200
IN: $281

[primelord]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

I don’t understand how he could call my bet on the flop under any circumstances – he knows I’m a selective player, and I reraised him pre-flop (which should indicate a very strong hand).

It seems to me the fact that he raised you pre-flop with 3-4 pretty clearly shows why he called you down after the flop.

[primelord]

Dola,

Was this a steal situation? It seems that any time a weak player tries to steal the blinds and hits any part of the flop they won't let it go because they think the other player is just over aggresively defending their blinds.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by primelord

Was this a steal situation? It seems that any time a weak player tries to steal the blinds and hits any part of the flop they won't let it go because they think the other player is just over aggresively defending their blinds.

Not a real steal situation - there were two callers before he raised with his 34. He's a loose aggressive player, I know that... but usually he makes decent judgments when the situation calls for it. I was just surprised that he didn't seem to here -- either he just wasn't thinking, or he had some unusual expectations for what I might be doing (which might point to a fault in my own game, I guess).

[primelord]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

either he just wasn't thinking, or he had some unusual expectations for what I might be doing (which might point to a fault in my own game, I guess).

Well since this wasn't a steal situation I would say raising pre-flop with 3-4 and then calling down a reraiser with nothing but bottom pair on the flop and a one ended straight draw in the turn would indicate the former.

[Alf]

Guys, I know next to nothing about calling plays in poker, but you make me want to learn more.

Great reading anyways !

[TRO]

I was equally dumbfounded when I ended up losing to a preflop 46s reraiser (after 2 callers of my initial QQ raise) in a UB 2/4 game.

Admittedly, online players are always a little bit off in some of their play and I've grown accustomed to seeing silly calls with similar hands but to raise or even reraise with them is something that really makes me speechless.

Great reading as always Quik.

[primelord]

A buddy of mine and I were at the casino recently playing 3/6. My buddy is an ok player. He generally plays well pre-flop, but is a little weak post-flop. He was not faring very well on this day and was becoming a bit frustrated. After a few hours he had decided he had enough and wanted to get up the next time the blinds got around to us.

In our last hand he was UTG and since it was his last hand and he was on tilt a bit he decided to limp in with As 2d. I was on his left and folded my rags. He got two callers and then a raise from middle position. It was folded around to my buddy who called and the other two limpers called.

The flop came out Ks 8s 7s. My buddy checked, the two limpers checked and the pre-flop raiser bet. My buddy raised his flush draw and the two limpers folded. The original bettor re-raised and my buddy calls. The turn is a blank. Check bet call. And the river is the 3s giving my buddy the nuts. He checks, the other guy bets, he raises, the other guy curses under his breath and calls. My buddy turns over his hand and the other guy went nuts.

He threw his cards across the table (he ended up having pocket 8's for the flopped set) and started yelling and cursing about what bullshit it was that my buddy would call a raise pre-flop with A2o. Now I have never seen someone lose it like this in real life. It of course only made him even more mad that we started racking our chips to leave right after that hand. The whole time he kept yelling at my friend. It was just a surreal experience. The dealer of course wasn't helping making a comment along the lines of "Man the way these guys play it almost seems like Party Poker in here sometimes".

So anyway my buddy obviously didn't care much considering he was racking up the guys chips, but this type of things just continues to amaze me. Clearly it was a porr play on my buddies part and it resulted in a suck out, but did that guy really want my friend to fold to the raise pre-flop? And why he thought he would fold for one more bet confuses me as well. My buddy made a bad play and was way behind all the way until the river. Yes it sucks to lose, but when I am at the table I am hoping people will keep putting bets in when they are huge dogs. If they suck out then they suck out, but that won't happen in the long run.

Sorry to threadjack you Quik, but since we were talking about poor pre-flop plays it just reminded me of this situation. Have any of you guys seen people lose it like that live? I have seen people who were quite clearly pissed countless times, but never to the point where they were throwing cards and yelling across the table. It just seemed odd to me.

[QuikSand]

Got a call about an hour ago - tournament tonight, $100 buy-in. I'm getting work done today at the office, in preparation for a day tomorrow as a zombie. Woo hoo!

[Radii]

Have any of you guys seen people lose it like that live? I have seen people who were quite clearly pissed countless times, but never to the point where they were throwing cards and yelling across the table. It just seemed odd to me.

We have a guy in the NL home game I play in sometimes(nothing like the stakes in this dynasty, a $20 buyin by 10-12 people is all) who is Phil Hellmuth without the self control.

He buys in multiple times every time we play, and complains for hours about the beats he takes(which are often not even beats, they're coin flips). He throws his cards when he loses after he's gone all-in, whether he gets sucked out on or whether he was behind the entire time, he complains about how the other guy "only had 12 outs" and complains about how the statistics never swing his way.

Other guys have terrible nights and lose 4 or 5 buyins, he loses 2 and will argue to the death to the guy who just dropped $100 about how he is unluckier.

I have never seen him get in someone's face over a call or a bad play but he is constantly agressive, on edge, and angry. It's astounding. I love seeing him bust out just so he's not at the table anymore and his whining is just in the background.


And to try to un-threadjack a little, Good Luck in tonight's tournament, QS! And to Mrs Q if she is also playing. Take home 1st and 2nd

[TRO]

Primelord, two things:

1. The guy that raised preflop with 3 limpers in front with only 88 also made a bad play IMHO. Yes, the call wasn't the best by your buddy but any preflop raiser should want to see that play anyway.

2. Once the flop hits and your buddy had the four flush to the nuts, he had every right to stay in, again IMHO. It won't always hit, but 9 outs to the nuts is a playable hand - granted, we don't know that the preflop raiser has got a set and thus a few outs to the boat or quads of his own, he could have AK or similar for all we know.

Good story though.

Edit: Another probelm the preflop raiser made, with 4 spades on the board and him not holdnig one, he probably should have bet anyway when his trips can't beat even a 2 of spades in your hand.

[WheelsVT]

Great dynasty thread, really enjoying it. I just had to add something about the recent comments on people losing it to bad calls..

I was just playing online, and had a similar situation happen to me. Was feeling like putting a little on the line, and with 96h I had low pair (6) and 2 hearts on the turn so I called a guy's all in with an already large pot. Of course I made the flush, and he went off in the chat. What a string of curses. but hey, he succeeded in getting me to put more money in. I suppose he thought I should fold. Sometimes I just feel like going against the odds, and occationally the gambling aspect of the game will bite your favorable hand (that's why it's rarely a "lock" to win).

Is it wise to sometimes limp in with rags just to see if the flop makes your hand (or puts you close)? My thinking is that when I get the big hand I'll get a few more calls. (guess I'm suggesting a slightly loose play to help stong moves when they're made)

Thanks for keeping this "dynasty" goin. It helps to see what others think about similar situations, I like to think improves my game, and a real-life story is always a good read.
(sorry for continuing the thread-jack)

[Radii]

Originally Posted by WheelsVT

Is it wise to sometimes limp in with rags just to see if the flop makes your hand (or puts you close)? My thinking is that when I get the big hand I'll get a few more calls. (guess I'm suggesting a slightly loose play to help stong moves when they're made)

In limit, rarely is it a good idea. A very very very occasional advertising play against people that actually pay attention might be alright, sure, and with enough limpers, 96h can be a hand worth seeing a flop from the button(need lots and lots of limpers already in fronto f you and little chance of a raise behind you)

In no limit, if you play well after the flop, are good at making the right reads, and are capable of laying down hands when you sort of hit the flop but don't get the monster hand/monster draw you need to justify playing, then yeah I think limps with some poorer hands are worthwhile... again, when you feel confidant you're not just going to end up folding to a raise behind you. Implied odds make it worth it in NL if you're good after the flop.

[QuikSand]

Thursday Night Game – 22 April

Well, it seems that the Thursday night crowd, once converging on Rick’s place every week or two, has turned into an Annapolis-based event – a rotation of sites, each offering a $100 buy-in event. I’m in for tonight, and should be on the list going forward.

I am preparing myself to play a little tighter than I have lately – I have been out fairly early in my last few events, and attribute it to playing a bit too loosely early on. My game is best when I am patient – so I commit to working on that for tonight.

I’m a little surprised when I find that the tournament will only have 13 players – so much for biding my time until we’re down to a manageable number. And as it turns out, all my forethought was for naught.

In the first six or seven hands, despite my decision to play “tight” I end up with no fewer than four hands that I end up playing for varying amounts. I get AJs on my very first hand, and end up losing a modest pot to a pair of kings over my jacks. I call with pocket fives, manage to turn a set after a debatable call, but lose when a fourth heart lands on the river. I play Q8 on my big blind, and then make a foolish series of calls against a super-loose player who happened to have paired the K ahead of my queens. And I end up calling with 87s, only to flop a straight flush draw with the T9… keeping me in until the river comes up empty. And so, in the space of about 20 minutes, my $10,000 chip stack had dwindled to half its original size. Suddenly, I am practically powerless and just waiting for a big hand.

It’s over fairly soon – I push all-in with AJs, seeking to steal a few callers’ bets and grab a thousand or so. I am called by AK, and he deservedly takes it down. I’m the first player out – ugh.

OUT: $100
IN: $0

I stick around for about an hour or so, and we get a side game going. I’m disappointed that they only want to play simple $2/$4, but settling on the lower stakes is my price for others’ agreement to play just hold ‘em rather than dealer’s choice. It works out fine.

The side game goes on for about two hours before two players bust out for the night. And the main reason they busted out is that one player at the table just racked up a lot of wins in the short time span – and fortunately, that player was me. I don’t claim that racking up almost 40 big bets in the space of two hours has much to do with anything but luck – but it was working for me tonight. I just have to look back and say… “why can’t I get the cards to fall like this when I am playing $10-20 or in the pink game?”

OUT: $60
IN: $210

[primelord]

Originally Posted by WheelsVT

Is it wise to sometimes limp in with rags just to see if the flop makes your hand (or puts you close)? My thinking is that when I get the big hand I'll get a few more calls. (guess I'm suggesting a slightly loose play to help stong moves when they're made)

To add a little bit to Radii's point you are about 8:1 against to flop either a 4 flush or a made flush. Which is really what you are looking for if you are going to play 96s. Now if you factor in that 78 will give you an OESD and the possibility of flopping two pair which would be worth going forward on then as Radii said it is playable from the button. However you probably want atleast 4 limpers in front of you and to be pretty certain that the blinds won't raise behind.

If you choose to throw this hand away every time on the button it wouldn't be far from wrong though.

[primelord]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

It’s over fairly soon – I push all-in with AKs, seeking to steal a few callers’ bets and grab a thousand or so. I am called by AK, and he deservedly takes it down. I’m the first player out – ugh.

I assume this is a typo? Unless the other AK hit a four flush on the board in which case you were having a REALLY rough night.

[QuikSand]

Thanks, primelord - my hand was AJs, not AKs. Edited above.

Ugh.

[gkb]

Quik I was wondering if you watch players for "tells"? I know that you seem to get a general feel for if a player is loose or tight, but do you absolutely know when some of the guys you're playing against are bluffing? In general, I wonder if others who read this thread are good at spotting tells either? Like I mentioned earlier I'm a complete novice and have really only played the one time and I had absolutely no idea when anyone was bluffing or not. I thought one guy was bluffing when he pushed all-in and he ended up having four 4's...

So if anyone is good at spotting tells, how do you go about it?

[QuikSand]

I would say that I'm basically a novice at spotting physical tells. Nearly all of my "reads" on opposing plaers are either from (1) knowing the player and his tendencies in the past and using that as a guide to what's happening now... or (2) watching the more distinct things like the betting pattern of the actual hand in question.

Most theory on tells seems to boil down to the following bit of advice: if you think that a player is acting in a certain way deliberately, then you should disbelieve what his actions would ordinarily. More simply put, strong means weak, and weak means strong.

Among amateurish players, this can be as rank as the player sighing as he calls your bet, even saying "well, I guess I'll see one more card." In general, you should assume that this player has a strong made hand, and is not at all just reluctantly paying to play on. If the same weak player boldly splashes chips into the pot and stares you down, you should be inclined to think that he has a weak hand, and is seeking a fold.

I've read Mike Caro's book on poker tells (the quintessential tome on the subject) and found it elightening in general, but tough to put to use in practice (especially in hold 'em). I think it's good to have this sort of thing in your quiver... but I personally don't really know what to do with it very well.

[primelord]

Generally when I am playing live if I flop a set I start screaming "PAIR THE BOARD!" I am not certain if you can consider that a tell or not.

[WheelsVT]

Originally Posted by primelord

However you probably want atleast 4 limpers in front of you and to be pretty certain that the blinds won't raise behind.

Lucky for me that's how it happened in this case.
Thanks for your thoughts.

Quik, do you normally try to stay out of the early action, and when you do opt to play do you play differently? It always seems to me that a few people always try to get out to an early start, and it's a tougher read until things calm down a bit (even when you have the cards).

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by WheelsVT

Quik, do you normally try to stay out of the early action, and when you do opt to play do you play differently? It always seems to me that a few people always try to get out to an early start, and it's a tougher read until things calm down a bit (even when you have the cards).

In a no limit tournament, especially one with a sizable number of players, my goal early on is just to stay out of most hands, and only play when I'm pretty sure I have a good edge. I'm not looking to win the tournament early - just to avoid losing. When I am playing well, the chances to make a move will find me, I'm confident.

[QuikSand]

$4/$8 Hold ‘em – 26 April

Not a lot to report for the night, I don’t have a whole lot of detail to regurgitate here.

Only five players, for about four hours. Pretty social game (I get along with all the people there), but not exactly my speed. I’ve developed my game pretty well to play at a short table when we are playing spread limits (and lots of people see most flops) but with fixed betting limits, it’s a little tougher for me to adjust. Three of the five players (most of the night) were aggressive – staying in most hands and frequently raising pre-flop. I still don’t have a great sense of how to play against this – I think the right recipe is to be a little looser with my willingness to call, and to play more aggressively with marginal hands.

Over the course of the evening, I was effective in doing two things – reraising to cool off the hot betting, and bullying the one other tight player at the table. I was down for most of the night, then made a late rally to get fairly close to even. Nothing special or spectacular… but I think I’ll post a thread in the general forum about short-handed play in general.

OUT: $200
IN: $155

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by WheelsVT

Sometimes I just feel like going against the odds

Would you like to come over to the house and play?

I LOVE this dynasty QS, keep up the good work.

[QuikSand]

Thursday Night Game – 29 April

The game tonight has rotated to a new location – but it’s mostly the same crowd I’m used to seeing. It’s a $100 buy-in plus $10 to cover costs – a slight bump in the entry. Fine by me.

I am seated at a table with tough surroundings. On my immediate right is Chip, a solid (though somewhat loose) player with good instincts. On my immediate left is Bumper, a tight and very solid player also. I guess that’s where I want these two to be (in terms of left and right)… but having them in such close quarters is a little unnerving.

Anyway – I’ve been on a bit of a slide lately with my in-person tournament play. I’m trying hard to disassociate this with the fact that my bad luck has largely coincided with my writing this little journal – but it’s not that far removed from my mind. I have lost count of the number of events, but I think the first three tournaments I played while writing this were all “bad beat” stories – I don’t feel badly about my play there at all, I got myself into a very good position where I had by far the best of it, and I got outdrawn. Yes, three times in a row – but it can happen. However, since then, I have had not even a whiff of the money in a single tournament – maybe five or six events since the bad run? It’s been dispiriting, to say the least.

My biggest concern is getting caught on the wrong side of small-to-medium pots early, and finding myself down a third of my stack before I’m really even playing. I resolve to do better tonight.

The first hour, I am a spectator. I play one hand of consequence, where I defend my big blind against Chip with QJ – only to fold it when he bets heavily with a king on the turn. Over the course of my first 30 or 40 hands, I have not seen a single pair – rather odd, really. Not even deuces of fours – no pairs at all. I’m getting a variety of sucker hand temptations – KJ, QT, A6, that kind of crap. I call a few blinds with these hands, but I can’t get anything to hit on the board at all. I end up suffering a bit when I try to buy a pot or two, and get called by one of the two players at the table I had not met before – both seem to be clueless wonders.

After dipping down a good deal, I limp in with AQ, and win a pot with an all-in after the flop brings A-K-4. I win the very next pot after my JTs limps into a flop of A-A-4. I bet out for a modest amount, and the table folds to the frightening board. So, I’m not quite so desperate – but still am under $6,000 in chips.

My “big” hand for the night is detailed in a thread in the general forum. I am dealt AQ under the gun, and call. It’s a possible all-in spot for me with a depleted stack as it is, but I opt to let it go and hope to hit something. BY the time it gets back to me, it’s been raised from $600 to $1800, and there are two callers already. Tough call for me – I think AQ is generally overrated, especially in multi-way pots, and calling the remaining $1200 would dent my stack significantly. I stew on it a while… seriously contemplating an all-in to try to isolate the field, but ultimately I decide to lay the hand down and watch.

Flop comes 4-T-Q – my flop. It’s possible someone is sitting on a higher pair, or even a QT, but my AQ is probably tops there, and I’d be betting, if not pushing all-in. But I’m watching instead.

Turn is an ace. I’d have top two, I’d be a monster. The table is betting liberally, I’d be cleaning up.

River is another queen. I’d be queens full, a titan. I watch Chip take a very healthy pot with his KJ – making the broadway straight on the turn to make the temporary nut hand. He would have been my unwitting customer in the hand, had I stayed until the end.

Who knows? I look back, and can justify my play, but it was very tough to watch it unfold that way.


A half hour later or so, I’m at $3100 in chips after putting up my big blind. I get T2 suited – one up on Dolly Brunson. No raises – I get to play for free. On the flop are two runt spades – my suit. I check to open, and the second player bets $1,000. I read that as an attempt to steal the modest pot – when it comes back to me I go all in. He calls, and turns over a nine-three, pairing the three on the board. I can win with a ten, a four (making a straight), or a spade in the remaining two cards.

No such luck – I’m out again, and I have another dreadful finish.

OUT: $110
IN: $0

The “side game” looks atrocious – it’s dealer’s choice, playing all sorts of weird shit I want no part of. I defer, and head home slightly steaming.

I’m pretty much convinced that my in-person game is in trouble right now. Tonight, looking back, I don’t think I had the goods to get anywhere – I actually did not se a single pocket pair the whole night (almost three hours) and there were two loose callers at the table. I bet on the one hand that actually got me somewhere on the flop, but past that I just didn’t have the ammo. I’ll try to set this one aside, other than the big AQ laydown (which I oddly showed my two neighbors, and had them commiserate with me).

I went home, and decided to fire up Party Poker for some online play (I was still in the playing mood, and not ready to sleep). I entered three sit-and-go tournaments, and made the money in all three – so in cash terms, I’m comfortably ahead for the night, but in morale terms, I’m in the ditch right now.

(Incidentally, the group I’m playing against has been having nice success playing elsewhere. In a big $500 buy-in tournament last weekend, our Annapolis contingent sent six players up north to play in the event, and got five out of six to the final table – including grabbing the top two spots. I’m sensing that the competition I’m up against is solid – better than it used to be – but I still don’t forgive myself my own errors)

[SirFozzie]

Perhaps I'm loose/agressive, but that AQ pot.. You have to force the play there. You are in a weak position chip wise, and this is likely one of the best hands you could see within your remaining chips and still not have it be a chance for someone else to take the gamble and try for a suckout with a re-all in because they can isolate YOU with the short stack and make it one on one. I would have re-raised all in, and see if I can reduce the chaff. If you don't get a caller, you've got back to level terms, but if you get one, you can double up. I see good pot odds.

I was saying that even BEFFORE I saw the board

[primelord]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Perhaps I'm loose/agressive, but that AQ pot.. You have to force the play there. You are in a weak position chip wise, and this is likely one of the best hands you could see within your remaining chips and still not have it be a chance for someone else to take the gamble and try for a suckout with a re-all in because they can isolate YOU with the short stack and make it one on one. I would have re-raised all in, and see if I can reduce the chaff. If you don't get a caller, you've got back to level terms, but if you get one, you can double up. I see good pot odds.

I was saying that even BEFFORE I saw the board

The fact that a very solid player on his right only called that raise doesn't concern you? I don't think that was a particularly good call on Chip's part, but from Quik's previous descritpion of him I would have put him on a better hand than that calling a raise with Quik still to act behind him.

If Chip had folded I would think this is a very easy all-in push, but with him still in the hand I think Quik made the right desicion. Even though the outcome said it was wrong.

[QuikSand]

If I were up against just two opponents with the AQ, I would not have hesitated to push all-in. Well, I might have hesitated, but I would have done it. Three opponents just seemed like too much, with a hand like AQ that can get into trouble against a variety of raising and raise-calling hands.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by primelord

The fact that a very solid player on his right only called that raise doesn't concern you? I don't think that was a particularly good call on Chip's part, but from Quik's previous descritpion of him I would have put him on a better hand than that calling a raise with Quik still to act behind him.

If Chip had folded I would think this is a very easy all-in push, but with him still in the hand I think Quik made the right desicion. Even though the outcome said it was wrong.

I see calling that raise as an attempt to see the flop and see if a marginal hand can get improved. I can understand how if Quik is the short stack (although he's at $6K entering this hand) that they might see this as an attempt to steal, especially with a limp then all in, but I'm still thinking that Chip doesn't have a better hand then Quik's AQ, I'd probably put him at a underpair (8-8, 9-9), hoping to flop the set, and it's a boat race at that point.

His chip position states that he needs to play agressively with what he has.. if he gets rags in the blinds, he becomes an easy mark at $3200 as I said above, where it's worth calling his all-in, or re-raising all-in to isolate you, just to knock him out.

I stand by my decision

[QuikSand]

Actually, I think I would have felt better had I gone down swinging in that pot by pushing all in, getting one or two callers, and missing it then by folding the hand, and limping along until I make a futile checkraise on a fluch draw.

But, part of this exercise in detailing my play is opening myself up for this sort of analysis. It's not easy to do, but I think it should benefit my game. (Though at the moment, It's just serving to piss me off)