Who's worse? Abortion doctor or abortion doctor killer?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

There are so many incorrect generalizations in your post, that I don't even know where to start. I will say this - "The people against abortion" as you put it, aren't all the same in their overall beliefs, and saying so is ignorant.

Like what? Go to the major pro-life websites. Almost all of them follow exactly what I wrote. I'm not saying that every person who is pro-life is like that, but the overall movement is (or the message they are getting out).

As I said, I'm pro-life. I think abortions are a cowards way out of something. It's also why I'm for sex education and helping people get contraceptives. You will find that most pro-life organizations are against that.

Pro-Life groups are almost unanimously against the morning after pill which DRASTICALLY REDUCES THE NUMBER OF ABORTIONS IN THIS COUNTRY.

[stevew]

I think god will put both of them in hell, fwiw.

Regardless you don't shoot someone in cold blood.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

I can't believe you agree with his statement. You must not know too many pro-lifers. You just watch the news where the loudest wackos and killers overshadow the vast majority of pro-lifers who, I guarantee actually do care about saving babies.

I'm disgusted right now. Generalizations like yours are more ignorant than the people you're indicting.

I better leave the thread before I turn into the old angry Schmidty again.

I'm talking about the pro-life movement. Not the average Joe who is sitting in his living room and just has an opinion on abortion. I am for gay marriage but I don't consider myself part of the gay rights movement. I am talking about the people who are actively participating in the abortion issue.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

I can't believe you agree with his statement. You must not know too many pro-lifers. You just watch the news where the loudest wackos and killers overshadow the vast majority of pro-lifers who, I guarantee actually do care about saving babies.

I'm disgusted right now. Generalizations like yours are more ignorant than the people you're indicting.

I better leave the thread before I turn into the old angry Schmidty again.

I guess the problem I have lately is that I pass by planned parenthood every morning and on certain days and certain times their are pro-lifers. Sometimes they are kneeling at praying towards the building, sometimes they are holding signs, and sometimes there isn't anyone there. it just seems to me that the vocal portion of the pro-life side has chosen to judge those that go to PP by what I see. The vocal pro-lifers aren't much better then then PETA, they use the same type of tactics...

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by molson

I'm not religious, but I think this bible quote is always misunderstood.

Didn't Jesus shoot down the whole eye for an eye deal?

Yes, "eye for an eye" is from the Old Testament, and as far as I know, while the OT is part of The Bible, it's not necessarily followed when the New Testament "updates and revises" it. Aside from the "turn the other cheek" line, there is also an often quoted line in the Death Penalty debate from I think the New Testament (can't remember what book it's from) where God says something like "You just live good lives and spread the Word, and leave the judging and punishing to me. And BTW, Legalize It."

I think that last part might have gotten lost in the translation to English....

[sabotai]

dola,

Looked it up. It's from Romans 12:17-21

17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

[revrew]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Like what? Go to the major pro-life websites. Almost all of them follow exactly what I wrote. I'm not saying that every person who is pro-life is like that, but the overall movement is (or the message they are getting out).

As I said, I'm pro-life. I think abortions are a cowards way out of something. It's also why I'm for sex education and helping people get contraceptives. You will find that most pro-life organizations are against that.

Pro-Life groups are almost unanimously against the morning after pill which DRASTICALLY REDUCES THE NUMBER OF ABORTIONS IN THIS COUNTRY.

Dude...I mean seriously. If yer gonna talk about the pro-life movement, then you probably ought to do some research. The reason pro-lifers are opposed to morning after pill is because it's abortificient. It doesn't REDUCE abortions, it's one form OF abortion, (or at least, that's the argument that is made by many pro-lifers.)

And I agree with the criticism of your previous post, as gross overgeneralizations, but I don't need to add to that criticism any further.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by revrew

Dude...I mean seriously. If yer gonna talk about the pro-life movement, then you probably ought to do some research. The reason pro-lifers are opposed to morning after pill is because it's abortificient. It doesn't REDUCE abortions, it's one form OF abortion, (or at least, that's the argument that is made by many pro-lifers.)

And I agree with the criticism of your previous post, as gross overgeneralizations, but I don't need to add to that criticism any further.

But it isn't abortificient. It doesn't prevent implantation, it just prevents ovulation. The argument used by pro-lifers is outdated and goes against what all the recent scientific research has shown.

And even if it was abortificient (which it isn't), it would still dramatically lower the number of abortions as those instances where implantation has occured are extremely minor.

If you truly hate abortions, why the hell would you be against a contraceptive that would prevent unwanted pregnancies?

[path12]

I don't doubt there are overgeneralizations on both sides, but as long as legal providers are subjected to the sorts of tactics described here I think it does your cause great harm.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by path12

I don't doubt there are overgeneralizations on both sides, but as long as legal providers are subjected to the sorts of tactics described here I think it does your cause great harm.

This group is close to being a terrorist group. If they have direct connections to anyone making threats of physical harm, or committing violent acts, why are they not already labeled a terrorist group? I wonder how quickly an Islamic group, engaging in the same activity, would come under serious scrutiny from the FBI/DHS/ATF/etc.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

This group is close to being a terrorist group. If they have direct connections to anyone making threats of physical harm, or committing violent acts, why are they not already labeled a terrorist group? I wonder how quickly an Islamic group, engaging in the same activity, would come under serious scrutiny from the FBI/DHS/ATF/etc.

QFT

[Pumpy Tudors]

This thread has inspired me to yell "FIRE!" in a crowded movie theater.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

This group is close to being a terrorist group. If they have direct connections to anyone making threats of physical harm, or committing violent acts, why are they not already labeled a terrorist group? I wonder how quickly an Islamic group, engaging in the same activity, would come under serious scrutiny from the FBI/DHS/ATF/etc.

Operation Rescue is another one against abortions but also against contraceptives which lower the number of abortions.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

This group is close to being a terrorist group. If they have direct connections to anyone making threats of physical harm, or committing violent acts, why are they not already labeled a terrorist group? I wonder how quickly an Islamic group, engaging in the same activity, would come under serious scrutiny from the FBI/DHS/ATF/etc.

Well, we can't have Sarah Palin palling around with domestic terrorists, now can we?

[miked]

Originally Posted by revrew

Dude...I mean seriously. If yer gonna talk about the pro-life movement, then you probably ought to do some research. The reason pro-lifers are opposed to morning after pill is because it's abortificient. It doesn't REDUCE abortions, it's one form OF abortion, (or at least, that's the argument that is made by many pro-lifers.)

And I agree with the criticism of your previous post, as gross overgeneralizations, but I don't need to add to that criticism any further.

I could be wrong, but the reason the morning after pill (Plan B, not RU486) is effective is because it prevents ovulation. The high doses of estrogen trick the body into thinking ovulation has already occurred. It's the exact same thing as taking 3 doses of a birth control pill. Sperm can live for 3-5 days, thus even if the woman hasn't ovulated yet, she still may become pregnant, which is why they take the pill, to prevent ovulation from even occurring. There are other pills that prevent fertilization/implantation, but the "morning after pill" that people want to make OTC is just a high dose of birth control pills.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by miked

I could be wrong, but the reason the morning after pill (Plan B, not RU486) is effective is because it prevents ovulation. The high doses of estrogen trick the body into thinking ovulation has already occurred. It's the exact same thing as taking 3 doses of a birth control pill. Sperm can live for 3-5 days, thus even if the woman hasn't ovulated yet, she still may become pregnant, which is why they take the pill, to prevent ovulation from even occurring. There are other pills that prevent fertilization/implantation, but the "morning after pill" that people want to make OTC is just a high dose of birth control pills.

Exactly. There were some studies from the 70's and 80's that stated it could prevent implantation, but those have been debunked in recent years by extensive studies on its effects.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I think that was the point of the charges. The law enforcement wasn't sure whether his interpretation was correct or even legal. I suppose it was as long as the charges didn't stick.

Kansas law stipulated that a second doctor with no financial ties whatsoever to to the doctor performing the late term abortion agree that the fetus was not viable. The former state attorney general claimed that Tiller did have ties to the doctors who were stipulating the fetus was not viable. It was designed to be a catch-22 for Tiller -- the second doctor would obvious want to be paid for the consult, so if Tiller paid for the consult it was against the law and if the patient paid then the prosecutor claimed that the second doctor was profitting from Tiller's recommendation, therefore a financial tie.

I won't make Tiller into a saint because I don't think that's appropriate and that's certainly not what he did what he did. But he was one of a handful of doctors who was willing to put his life on the line when it came to helping patients who had a pregnancy where the mother's life was in danger due to unviable fetus or a fetus was going to be born with such massive defects that it would be inhumane to put any person through the terror of living. It was a horrible job and he did it because nobody else would.

Going after Tiller has to be the life's mission of Fred Phelps. The enemy of Fred Phelps is a friend to most of us.

We'll find out more about Scott Roeder. The early word I've been hearing is that he is an anti-government, anti-tax protester with ties to militia groups advocating overthrowing the government.

I assume the eye-for-eye crowd will be glad to know that Kansas is a death penalty state and he's going to end up on death row unless he can whip out an insanity defense.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

I won't make Tiller into a saint because I don't think that's appropriate and that's certainly not what he did what he did. But he was one of a handful of doctors who was willing to put his life on the line when it came to helping patients who had a pregnancy where the mother's life was in danger due to unviable fetus or a fetus was going to be born with such massive defects that it would be inhumane to put any person through the terror of living. It was a horrible job and he did it because nobody else would.

Going after Tiller has to be the life's mission of Fred Phelps. The enemy of Fred Phelps is a friend to most of us.

We'll find out more about Scott Roeder. The early word I've been hearing is that he is an anti-government, anti-tax protester with ties to militia groups advocating overthrowing the government.

I assume the eye-for-eye crowd will be glad to know that Kansas is a death penalty state and he's going to end up on death row unless he can whip out an insanity defense.

FWIW.......I don't presume to be able to judge these type of situations. I'm glad I've never had to make that kind of a decision as a parent, regardless of legality or morality.

[mh2365]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Most pro-life people, including this killer, don't care about saving babies. They care about telling other people what they can and can't do with themselves.

ding ding ding we have a winner

[Groundhog]

At least 86% of us here at FOFC aren't out of their god damned minds.

[jeff061]

I don't know. I'm part of that 86%. But I am kind of out of my god damned mind .

[DanGarion]

It's gods will if you have a kid, it's gods will if having a kid kills you, but god forbid you get sick because then you can use all the science you want to fight it...

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by molson

Probably, but that one's the most blatant I'm aware of.

People say, "the bible says an eye for an eye", when I'm pretty sure Jesus actually said the oppositte, something like, "you have heard 'eye for eye', but I tell you today, turn the other cheek" (or something).

Even wiki has it cited (from NewRSV) on a page about "eye for an eye":

Originally Posted by JC, Bible

You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth". But I say to you, do not resist an evildoer. If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. (Matthew 5:38–39, NRSV)

So, yeah, like a lot of OT stuff, Jesus has a new take on the old message.

SI

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by revrew

That assertion is not only incorrect, it's wrong.

Sincerely, thsnk you for this. Not a commentary on the issue or your point, but I really like this.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

It's gods will if you have a kid, it's gods will if having a kid kills you, but god forbid you get sick because then you can use all the science you want to fight it...

Indeed. If God wanted you to fall out of a tree and break your leg, learn to live with that broken leg. Getting it fixed is in direct defiance of what God wanted for you.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

Indeed. If God wanted you to fall out of a tree and break your leg, learn to live with that broken leg. Getting it fixed is in direct defiance of what God wanted for you.

Again, you're just taking one, very specific definition of God and using it too broadly. You're assuming a God that exerts control over every little thing that ever happens. I don't think even Christianity goes that far.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by molson

Again, you're just taking one, very specific definition of God and using it too broadly. You're assuming a God that exerts control over every little thing that ever happens. I don't think even Christianity goes that far.

I was intentionally being absurd about it. I would hope that "God" would prefer someone abort a baby that would be very likely to suffer and die in short order if carried to term. I fail to see how it can be "God's will" for a baby to go through that, but not things like breaking your arm/leg, getting sick, etc.

[Arles]

I can't believe this is really a thread and on its third page

[Fighter of Foo]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

This message is hidden because Mizzou B-ball fan is on your ignore list.

Threads work much better this way.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Fighter of Foo

Threads work much better this way.

I agree, but then, if you're a sucker like me, you see the thread title and say to yourself "WHAT THE FUCK" and click on the "read post" button, bypassing all the safeguards you set up to avoid this stupidity. Its a personal problem really.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by Fighter of Foo

Threads work much better this way.

I tried that once, but found that since he dominates the conversation in the threads he participates in, the point became moot. Either half of his posts were quoted anyways, or I found pages of reading incomprehensible as people addressed items I hadn't seen.

[DanGarion]

Wow this guy was so terrible.... I mean he was saving lives, how dare he...

http://www.boingboing.net/2009/06/02...onal-narr.html

Salon's Kate Harding has collected a number of first-person accounts from women (and families) who were patients of the recently murdered Dr. George Tiller. As I understand it, he was one of only three providers of late-term abortions in the USA, and widely considered the most expert practitioner in this extremely controversial area of health care. Snip:

Susan Hill, President of the National Women's Health Foundation, who knew Dr. Tiller for over two decades and referred girls and women to his clinic, said in a phone interview, "We always sent the really tragic cases to Tiller." Those included women diagnosed with cancer who needed abortions to qualify for chemotherapy, women who learned late in their pregnancies that their wanted babies had fatal illnesses, and rape victims so young they didn't realize they were pregnant for months. "We sent him 11-year-olds, 12-year-olds who were way too far along for anybody [else] to see," said Hill. "Eleven-year-olds don't tell anybody. Sometimes they don't even know they've had a period."

Since the news of Dr. Tiller's murder broke, personal narratives from people who used his services have been appearing around the Web. A commenter at the blog Balloon Juice told the story of finding out in the eighth month of his wife's pregnancy that she was carrying conjoined twins. "Conjoined twins alone is not what was so difficult but the way they were joined meant that at best only one child would survive the surgery to separate them and the survivor would more than likely live a brief and painful life filled with surgery and organ transplants." They chose to terminate the much-wanted pregnancy, rather than bring a child into the world only to suffer and die. "The nightmare of our decision and the aftermath was only made bearable by the warmth and compassion of Dr. Tiller and his remarkable staff."

[SFL Cat]

I think there is an equivalency between the two.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by Fighter of Foo

Threads work much better this way.

I finally caved and added him a few others today.

[flere-imsaho]

As I understand it, he was one of only three providers of late-term abortions in the USA

Kind of puts some context around some claims we see from extreme pro-lifers that late-term abortions are "happening all the time".

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Kind of puts some context around some claims we see from extreme pro-lifers that late-term abortions are "happening all the time".

There's both sides of the argument on the extreme ends. Most are best off not bothering to listen to them.

[lordscarlet]

One of my Mother-In-Laws coworkers has to perform a late term abortion. The option is that or birth a child that is guaranteed to die within a day or two of birth.

[flere-imsaho]

Everything I felt I needed to say about abortion I said here.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by lordscarlet

One of my Mother-In-Laws coworkers has to perform a late term abortion. The option is that or birth a child that is guaranteed to die within a day or two of birth.

Which of course, would be countered by the pro-life person who points out the one instance where a baby who was expected to die in a day or two lived 4-5 years. It's endless as I'm sure you're fully aware.

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Which of course, would be countered by the pro-life person who points out the one instance where a baby who was expected to die in a day or two lived 4-5 years. It's endless as I'm sure you're fully aware.

Oh, quite so. And she of course doesn't "have" to do a late term abortion. As someone that doesn't necessarily believe in a "soul" (I just don't know either way), I don't see any value of life to a human that would max out at 4-5 years of what would likely be a subpar life due to whatever condition they have.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Which of course, would be countered by the pro-life person who points out the one instance where a baby who was expected to die in a day or two lived 4-5 years. It's endless as I'm sure you're fully aware.

And those people making that argument don't really give a shit about the child or it's quality of life. It's why with all the money going into the pro-life movement, so little of it goes to help people like that get the best medical care.

[JPhillips]

Roeder found guilty on all counts. Hard to come to any other decision after he confessed on the stand.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Roeder found guilty on all counts. Hard to come to any other decision after he confessed on the stand.

good

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Roeder found guilty on all counts. Hard to come to any other decision after he confessed on the stand.

Wow, guess the defense didn't have many witnesses this morning. Verdict wasn't expected until Monday when I listened to the news this morning.

[Calis]

Yeah there wasn't much reason for the defense to do anything after he testified and the Judge said no to their absurd plea for manslaughter to be possible instead.

Was a surreal trial from the start. Glad it ended the correct way.

[Lathum]

I wonder how Tim Tebow feels about this thread.

[molson]

The Kansas statutory definition of voluntary manslaughter "an unreasonable but honest belief that circumstances existed that justified deadly force" certainly would appear to apply here (as it would for most murderers, I would think)

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by molson

The Kansas statutory definition of voluntary manslaughter "an unreasonable but honest belief that circumstances existed that justified deadly force" certainly would appear to apply here (as it would for most murderers, I would think)

fortunately you weren't the judge!

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by molson

The Kansas statutory definition of voluntary manslaughter "an unreasonable but honest belief that circumstances existed that justified deadly force" certainly would appear to apply here (as it would for most murderers, I would think)

Seems to me nearly all premeditated murders fall under this.

[Calis]

Originally Posted by molson

The Kansas statutory definition of voluntary manslaughter "an unreasonable but honest belief that circumstances existed that justified deadly force" certainly would appear to apply here (as it would for most murderers, I would think)

Is that verbatim? Everything I've seen is that "the person must be stopping the imminent use of unlawful force." This was the exact reasoning the Judge gave for not allowing the defense, because Tiller wasn't performing an unlawful act regardless of a person's stance on the issue.

The definition the Judge give certainly makes a lot more sense and seems more applicable than the one you mentioned, as there is seldom(ever?) a murder case where that wouldn't be valid.