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#101 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: the yo'
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Those screenshots look like Lego characters playing Football.
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#102 |
High School Varsity
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Bring back Legends of Football.
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#103 |
Awaiting Further Instructions...
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Macungie, PA
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Without intending to sounding too negative, this game is going to suck the most enormous donkey testicles that have ever been produced by ID/Evolution.
There isn't one post on that forum that leads me to believe that this game will be anything but a waste of time. Besides, more money has been thrown at the madden franchise than any other football game in history and they still can't get the 3d aspect of the game right... how does this game have any chance? Folks that play these types of sim games demand absolute accuracy. There is no way on earth this guy is going to be able to accomplish anything near satisfactory simulations. At least madden has pretty graphics... from a simulation standpoint, madden is terrible. At this point in technology, you cannot have a football sim with the spreadsheet power of FOF and an accurate on the field simulation (again,that not even the front-runner madden gets right). Football is just too complex for our slow computers. Someday? Yes. Now? No, especially by an indie developer with only a track record of missed deadlines.
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#104 | |
General Manager
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: The Satellite of Love
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Quote:
Everything said about Maximum Football, however, I do agree with. |
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#105 | |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Cary, NC
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Quote:
B.S. Madden hasn't done it yet because Madden focuses on joystick jockeys, not armchair coaches.
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-- Greg -- Author of various FOF utilities |
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#106 |
Pro Rookie
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Kansas City, Mo
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Hmm... i may get this game.. just to see if a 8088 processor can handle those bad ass graphix!
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#107 | |
Roster Filler
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Cicero
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Quote:
To pile one, you are really wrong about this. The reasons that nobody has released a game that does both well is economics. To develop such a game would cost more money than developing a game that does one well, and they would not be able to raise the price (since the only acceptable price for a new game is $50). Football pro 97 did both well, and was released in 96. I don't think football has gotten much more complicated, or computers slower, in that time.
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http://www.nateandellie.net Now featuring twice the babies for the same low price! |
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#108 |
Pro Rookie
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkley, MI: The Hotbed of FOFC!
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I just re-read some of what SD posted on page 1 from the Maximum Football forum. I loved this from the designer/programmer/whatever:
"I posted a new build for the testers on Sunday night. Lets see what happens with that." Gotta love the confidence! |
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#109 | |
Awaiting Further Instructions...
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Macungie, PA
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Quote:
Somebody needs to include this in a memo to the Madden Team. I may not have the most knowledge of football, but I know it when I see it. The current state of computer power isn't enough to model the game exactly as we watch it on Sundays. I don't want a graphical representation of the game until it can perfectly match life (and someday technology and programming will get there), otherwise-- what is the point? We nitpick with Jim and Arlie to get the text portion of it right; imagine how crazy you would be watching the game unfold in 3d on your screen and you see the AI doing stupid shit. Maybe Jim or Arlie could weigh-in on this and tell me I'm full of shit and that we can do this with today's machines, but I highly doubt it.
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#110 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Dec 2001
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I've never seen so much talk about such a ham and egg project.
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"Don't you have homes?" -- Judge Smales |
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#111 | |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Cary, NC
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Quote:
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-- Greg -- Author of various FOF utilities |
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#112 |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: The Internets
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I think the only thing missing from this thread is a post by Wrongway saying "this will be the greatest selling game of all time. And Wie sucks." Sadly, that can't happen.
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I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man. - The Dude |
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#113 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Troy, Mo
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Quote:
You may be right with the "perfectly match life" portion of your statement, but the FPS series was/is/might always be the best of both worlds. It had some problems, but it did a lot right. The series was evolving like Madden does in terms of graphics, but Sierra pulled the plug. ![]() |
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#114 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Seattle
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Quote:
And even if they did, people would still bitch. Think about every time an AI player misread/forgot/blew the play call and was wildly out of position (just like what happens every Sunday in reality) - the gamer would bitch and moan about what a "stupid" AI it is. Now, what may also be limiting the AI is the connection to the 3D engine. There's a range of possibilities that can happen when you connect the logic code of the game to the 3D engine, ranging from the logic has absolute control over the movement of the players at the expense of the animations to the animations have complete control at the expense of the logic. Madden runs closer to the first extreme - they realize it's more important to get the player in the right spot than to have the animation run smoothly. That's why you see foot sliding and awkward looking transitions. But I think they do provide a slight amount of concession to the animations at the expense of the logic to keep the animations from looking too awful. As game console processors get more powerful, this will allow for more sophisticated blending systems to be integrated into the 3D engines which will allow the logic code to completely govern movement in the games while also providing very realistic animations and transitions. |
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#115 |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Nov 2003
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It is a trade off.
AI takes lots of cpu time. Graphics takes lots of cpu time. Which do you think Madden chooses? |
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#116 |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Not Delaware - hurray!
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I'll be the lone dissenting vote here. If I was a solo developer, I'd be pretty damn proud if these were the graphics I was able to offer.
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She loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah! She loves you, yeah! how do you know? how do you know? |
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#117 |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Fairfax, VA
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The graphics don't bother me at all, I'd be more concerned about how well the AI and career play turns out (assuming the game is actually released at some point).
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#118 | |
College Prospect
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Quote:
They can do it in SIGAMES Football Manager. What makes you think they can't do it in American Football. |
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#119 | |
College Prospect
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Quote:
Wrong. Graphics are generally done with the video card now. The Processor has very little to do with the graphics. |
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#120 | |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Quote:
Wrong! |
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#121 | |
College Prospect
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Quote:
I don't get it. |
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#122 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Seattle
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Quote:
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#123 | |
High School JV
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Kelowna, BC, Canada
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Quote:
If anything, the real trick is having the players make mistakes. An AI quarterback can look at all his receivers on a play and make the highest-percentage pass 100% of the time. To be a realistic model, though, he has to make bad choices occasionally, and his reaction time has to be slowed down to something less than instant. |
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#124 | |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Cary, NC
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Quote:
Maybe for actually DRAWING the graphics, but there is still a TON of setup work in deciding what to draw. Trust me, the rendering folks still want access to PLENTY of CPU for their work.
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-- Greg -- Author of various FOF utilities |
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#125 | |
Awaiting Further Instructions...
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Macungie, PA
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Quote:
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#126 | ||
General Manager
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: The Satellite of Love
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Quote:
Quote:
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#127 | |
College Prospect
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Quote:
I don't think so. American football is only 4 to 10 seconds long per play. Soccer is continous flow. When a player has a ball in soccer he must make a ton of decisions. In football, a lineman either blocks or well blocks. Granted he must decided who to block. But, in general he either man blocks or zone blocks. Now there are positions that require more thought such as the QB, but in general on a play a person is given a command. He is supposed to perform the action the playbook tells him too. Either game can be modeled accurately. I believe both would take years of tweaking the engine and input from experts in the field. Years meaning, it took SI Games about 8 years or more to accurately depict 2d gameplay. I don't believe you can say one is easier or harder then the other. All I want is a 2d model, simple x and o for a football game. That will prove the engine. Last edited by astrosfan64 : 01-31-2006 at 03:39 PM. |
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#128 | |
Awaiting Further Instructions...
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Macungie, PA
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Quote:
Keep in mind that this is all way beyond simple if/then logic. Yes, I know you are a coder. I've written my share of c++ apps in my day, so, while I'm not making a living at it, I at least can look at this with some knowledge of how this stuff is structured. |
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#129 | |
College Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: A negative place
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Quote:
I think the issue is that a FPS like Quake has to run at so many frames per second to look good (regardless of whether the GPU is doing the rendering work). If you have multiple logic/movement decisions going on, they all have to be able to occur within that frame rate timespan. Perhaps if you took a less graphics intensive appraoch like FM, you can get by with a lower framerate and have more time to run logic intensive routines between each frame. |
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#130 | |
General Manager
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: The Satellite of Love
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Quote:
Besides, an AI bot for Q3 is not an AI bot for football. They are two very different things. I have a pretty good idea as to what would be needed to create a (2D top down) simulation of football and the AI required (and yes, well beyond simple if/then logic). It's very do-able. |
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#131 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Quote:
Out of the major sports, I can think of few that would be easier (note: this does still not mean easy) to have a fluid 2D display for than American football, except for of course baseball. Basketball/soccer/ice hockey/rugby etc. are all fluid sports that are, by and large, continous. With American football it's a down at a time, and the offense and defense are both coming out with set plays. Of course there's still a heck of a lot that goes on down on the field, but after the play is over, the whole thing resets and everyone is back in position.
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Politics, n. Strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. --Ambrose Bierce |
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#132 | |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Kansas City, MO
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Quote:
Sierra's FPS was a hybrid -- but I'd say that rather than double development time, they spend the same amount of development time as say Madden did, but re-allocated resources from graphics to the spreadsheet side. As a result, you got a game that wasn't as good as Madden graphically and a game that wasn't as good as FOF spreadsheet wise. I think Sierra also wisely built onto the game each year rather than starting from scratch. Unfortunately, with '99 they decided to do just that and showed that you can't do high-end graphics and high-end spreadsheet within the traditional development cycle. Given another six months and another $15/game, they could have pulled it off. You can't get a football game with Madden-esque graphics and a FOF-esque engine without adding another $15 in price at least, and the market simply won't bare that. Joystick jockeys won't pay it. |
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#133 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: the yo'
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Quote:
Yeah, especially because of the set plays. Which is not to argue that other sports dont have them, but in football, you'd already have a basis for where the AI is planning to run/pass the ball, so that you could work the options off of that. And in many cases, 2-3 members of the defense wouldnt even be involved in the first level of the play, so you could probably mimic their AI without much intensive use. |
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#134 | |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Cary, NC
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Quote:
You ain't kidding. I call the original Quake AI a "PacMan" AI, because that's pretty much all the monsters did. It boiled down to: Do I see the player? If so, attack! Have I seen the player in the last 5 seconds? If so, run after him! Otherwise, go back to stomping around in the room I was placed in. That's pretty much it.
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-- Greg -- Author of various FOF utilities |
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#135 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
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you mean this game STILL hasn't been released?? I thought we were assuming it would be out weeks ago!!
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#136 |
lolzcat
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
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According to the web site, its release will coincide nicely with last year's Superbowl. Fear not.
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#137 | ||
Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Muskogee, OK USA
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Best. Thread. Ever.
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Quote:
Quote:
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#138 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
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oh i don't fear, because i have no intention of buying it. i fall in the same camp as SD really...if the game took this long to come out, i can't imagine the support for it is going to be where it needs to be for a first-gen game.
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#139 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Troy, Mo
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Quote:
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#140 |
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Hatch
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Give the dude some time god damnit, Matrix is still working on the box and manual.
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#141 | |
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Hatch
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Quote:
Ham and Eggs you say? Tell me more. |
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#142 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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They should offer a pre-release discount like OOTP.
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To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
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#143 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sydney, Australia
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I finally went to the website just now and as soon as I saw the first screen shot I went "Oooooohhh...... THIS game, I remember looking at these screenshots 3 years ago and thinking that this had potential"...
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Politics, n. Strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. --Ambrose Bierce |
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#144 | |
Awaiting Further Instructions...
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Macungie, PA
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Quote:
IFX. FUNEM? IFM. IFMNX. |
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#145 | |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Quote:
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#146 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Dec 2001
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Quote:
Calling someone a ham and egger back in the day meant you were a street tough.
__________________
"Don't you have homes?" -- Judge Smales |
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#147 | |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Not Delaware - hurray!
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Quote:
This is great news. I wonder if it comes with the 2002 rosters?
__________________
She loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah! She loves you, yeah! how do you know? how do you know? |
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#148 |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Fairfax, VA
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Taking a step into fantasy land for a moment and assuming the game is released mid-February...considering the game's been in development for 5-6 years (or whatever it is now), how smart is it to release it AFTER the football season is over?
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#149 |
College Starter
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: South Florida
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After 5-6 years, i would think just getting the thing out is something of a moral victory, whether football season is over or not.
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#150 |
Pro Starter
Join Date: May 2001
Location: toronto
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I'm thinking of releasing a hockey sim....the day baseball season starts.
I am a marketing god.
__________________
Pumpy Tudors Now that I've cracked and made that admission, I wonder if I'm only a couple of steps away from wanting to tongue-kiss Jaromir Jagr and give Bobby Clarke a blowjob. |
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