Crazy wierd thing with rookie contracts...anyone ever seen this? - Page 3

sabotai · 10-12-2005, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WrongWay

Stop. Forget about the Rookies this cheat would allow you to make bonus money dissapear.

Take a player you have capped out the past 2 seasons and is now overloaded in bonus money. Use the Same process on him and all his old bonus money will vanish, and you will have a brand new contract without any old or wasted Bonus money. Correct?

And, what makes this even better is that it is going to be a pain in the ass to spot. It will just look like another renogiated contract if done correctly.

You might be right, and hopefully someone can confirm one way or the other: If a player is released in Commish Mode, does the salary bonus penality hit the team or not?

(Edit: replied before I saw steve's last post)

WrongWay · 10-12-2005, 03:32 PM

I am looking at Earl Burns contract. A free Agent he picked up 2 years ago for big money that should of still had old Bonus money attached.

VPI97 · 10-12-2005, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WrongWay

Take a player you have capped out the past 2 seasons and is now overloaded in bonus money. Use the Same process on him and all his old bonus money will vanish, and you will have a brand new contract without any old or wasted Bonus money. Correct?

Incorrect. The bonus money from the previous contract will still be on the books on the Commish's save game. The new contract would act as a renegotiation.

WrongWay · 10-12-2005, 04:08 PM

You are correct. Earl Burns was playing on a 4 year contract that did not include any Bonus money. And, so were the other Renogiated players for Denver.

WrongWay · 10-12-2005, 04:26 PM

That is something I have never understood about this game.

Why is there no Password protection for either the individual teams or at the very least the Commisioner?

gottimd · 10-12-2005, 04:28 PM

Apparently there was discussion about that (password protection) and the overall feeling was that if you can't trust the people in your league, what are you doing in that league. I feel there should be protection.

Nwobhm · 10-12-2005, 04:30 PM

Question: If an owner tried using this technique to extend someone's contract would you see bonuses piggybacked on top of each other?

For example: The new cheat contract adds 5million bonus on a 5 year extension. The player in question has two years left on a deal, and the prorated bonus for those 2 years was 1 million each. The new contract bonus structure should look something like this normally:

Year 1: 2m bonus with x base salary
Year 2: 2m bonus with x base salary
Year 3: 1m bonus with x base salary
Year 4: 1m bonus with x base salary
Year 5: 1m bonus with x base salary

Would this cheat eliminate the existing bonuses for years 1+2 from the old deal? From what i gather it would, and the old bonus $ would show up as lost cap room.

stevew · 10-12-2005, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nwobhm

Question: If an owner tried using this technique to extend someone's contract would you see bonuses piggybacked on top of each other?

For example: The new cheat contract adds 5million bonus on a 5 year extension. The player in question has two years left on a deal, and the prorated bonus for those 2 years was 1 million each. The new contract bonus structure should look something like this normally:

Year 1: 2m bonus with x base salary
Year 2: 2m bonus with x base salary
Year 3: 1m bonus with x base salary
Year 4: 1m bonus with x base salary
Year 5: 1m bonus with x base salary

Would this cheat eliminate the existing bonuses for years 1+2 from the old deal? From what i gather it would, and the old bonus $ would show up as lost cap room.

no, it would piggy back it, at least it did so on my tests.

stevew · 10-12-2005, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gottimd

Apparently there was discussion about that (password protection) and the overall feeling was that if you can't trust the people in your league, what are you doing in that league. I feel there should be protection.

There should always be protection.

VPI97 · 10-12-2005, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nwobhm

Would this cheat eliminate the existing bonuses for years 1+2 from the old deal? From what i gather it would, and the old bonus $ would show up as lost cap room.

No, because the events play out on the commish's machine as a contract proposal to an already signed played...i.e. a renegotiation. The only way this manipulation works is with a rookie because they are listed as being on the roster with no existing contract. It's just a workaround to avoid the limitation of the four pre-determined contract offers that can be made to rookies.

stevew · 10-12-2005, 04:37 PM

While we are on the concept of "cheats," why is it so easy to sign say 3 good OLB or something, and then alternately start 2 every year, and renegotiate the one guy that sat all the previous year for minimal money. Or if your stud QB gets hurt, misses 10 weeks, and comes back fully healed, and now only wants minimum salary. This type of shit isn't as shady as say the gmac contract status, but its every bit as bad. In the future version, something as miniscule as "games started" should not count in regards to a negotiation that takes the salary downward. Maybe if a good player who is still maxed out in skills gets hurt, he may ask for one year of minimal contract money, but never should ask for a 3 or 4 year contract.

Raven Hawk · 10-12-2005, 04:57 PM

This cheat sounds like it would also work on Franchised Players. Since they are on a 1 year deal with no bonus, they could conceivable be cut during FA2 and resigned at a fraction of what they would be asking if you were to renegotiate their franchise contract. Can somebody verify this?

albionmoonlight · 10-12-2005, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WrongWay

That is something I have never understood about this game.

Why is there no Password protection for either the individual teams or at the very least the Commisioner?

Technological security may give people a false sense of security. People will always be willing to cheat. Passwords will, among other things, make us complacent about catching cheaters. I agree with the model of not wasting Jim's time in an arms race against the cheaters--and leaving it up to us to be careful about those with whom we play. YMMV, but I like the way it works.

And, FWIW, I would never accept unsecure software if there is, for instance, money involved. But, since FOF is just fun for me, I figure that I can leave if I ever feel that I am getting cheated.

stevew · 10-12-2005, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raven Hawk

This cheat sounds like it would also work on Franchised Players. Since they are on a 1 year deal with no bonus, they could conceivable be cut during FA2 and resigned at a fraction of what they would be asking if you were to renegotiate their franchise contract. Can somebody verify this?

Most of the time the guys already take a fraction of their franchised contract, ill try though.

albionmoonlight · 10-12-2005, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew

Or if your stud QB gets hurt, misses 10 weeks, and comes back fully healed, and now only wants minimum salary.

Ahh. . . the Joey Allen special

I agree that it is not realistic, but since everyone is on the same page with it, and it is the game working as designed, I have very little problem with it.

PackerFanatic · 10-12-2005, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gottimd

So has anyone confronted him about this, or are all of the Commish's just talking about it here?

Yes, I have confronted him. Haven't really gotten a straight answer yet but I will keep you posted.

VPI97 · 10-12-2005, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raven Hawk

This cheat sounds like it would also work on Franchised Players. Since they are on a 1 year deal with no bonus, they could conceivable be cut during FA2 and resigned at a fraction of what they would be asking if you were to renegotiate their franchise contract. Can somebody verify this?

Most of the time the guys already take a fraction of their franchised contract.

Exactly...there's no real advantage. The part of the cheat that you guys are missing is that the 'bug' in this scenario is that the import on the commish's machine doesn't differentiate a FA contract offer from one of the four pre-determined rookie offers. If the game just had a check to make sure that rookies only signed deals that fit one of those four offers then there would be no 'bug'. The cheat attempt would then result in a declined contract by the rookie.

VPI97 · 10-12-2005, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PackerFanatic

Yes, I have confronted him. Haven't really gotten a straight answer yet but I will keep you posted.

It's a blatant attempt at cheating. He didn't 'accidentally' screw your league. He should be dumped from all his leagues immediately.

sovereignstar · 10-12-2005, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

And, FWIW, I would never accept unsecure software if there is, for instance, money involved. But, since FOF is just fun for me, I figure that I can leave if I ever feel that I am getting cheated.

Funny you should say that. If I'm not mistaken, one of the leagues this GMac is in, the DFL, is a pay league.

stevew · 10-12-2005, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raven Hawk

This cheat sounds like it would also work on Franchised Players. Since they are on a 1 year deal with no bonus, they could conceivable be cut during FA2 and resigned at a fraction of what they would be asking if you were to renegotiate their franchise contract. Can somebody verify this?

San Diego QB Aurthur Beckstein(Brees) is on a one year franchise contract for 6.62 million. he wants

8.24 bonus

Salaries of
910
4.3
5.4
6.7
7.9
9.1

I decide to be ultra sneaky, and do this renegotiation before the last stage of second FA.

His demands are
5.64 bonus
560k
2.3
2.9
3.6
4.2
4.8

But Brees does not sign the new contract, and it reverts to his franchised value, despite my attempt to cheat.

stevew · 10-12-2005, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Ahh. . . the Joey Allen special

I agree that it is not realistic, but since everyone is on the same page with it, and it is the game working as designed, I have very little problem with it.

I think its a flaw though, its cool if some dont, though.

sovereignstar · 10-12-2005, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew

I think its a flaw though, its cool if some dont, though.

And holdouts aren't helping at all?

Joe · 10-12-2005, 06:01 PM

I would LOVE to hear this dude's explanation.

yabanci · 10-12-2005, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George W Bush

I would LOVE to hear this dude's explanation.

probably the inevitable, "well, the rules are silent on this issue."

Chubby · 10-12-2005, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yabanci

probably the inevitable, "well, the rules are silent on this issue."

ummm, what the guy is doing is clearly cheating.

stevew · 10-12-2005, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

And holdouts aren't helping at all?

How many holdouts are you actually seeing? I think it could go up like 10 fold, and then it might work its way out better.

sovereignstar · 10-12-2005, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew

How many holdouts are you actually seeing? I think it could go up like 10 fold, and then it might work its way out better.

I'm asking, because I really don't know. One of the leagues I'm in runs at a snail's pace, the other is just finishing up it's first season.

stevew · 10-12-2005, 07:27 PM

I think that there were maybe like 10 hold outs in the last wigFL offseason, maybe less? I'll pay more attention next year.

stevew · 10-12-2005, 07:32 PM

dola, if that, maybe more like 5-6. I would think the NFL number, if you include guys that bitch about their contract, threaten to hold out, but still show up to camp "for the good of the team" would have to be closer to 20-30 league wide? Easily?

sovereignstar · 10-12-2005, 11:01 PM

Come one, WrongWay. You could've shared this with us over here.

Quote:

The only thing I don't understand about that thread is everyone calling for the death penalty. I am sorry but I see this kind of cheating all the time in sports and 99.99% of the time the league does not give out the death penalty.

Last time I checked the Denver Broncos were still part of the NFL. Even though their Owner, Pat Bowlin, and their Superstar player, John Elway, conspired to beat the NFL's salary cap.

In Nascar you see a team get busted for having illegal parts on their cars about every other month.

Baseball, besides steroids, what about corked bats? Last time I checked Sammy Sosa was still playing.

And, I will not even get into the NCAA, unless you really want to see those Ivy League schools competing against Military Academies for the national championship.

So, why should we expect to see anything different in out on line leagues? I just can't believe that everyone in that thread is acting so shocked that this would happen and calling for an immediate death penalty.

http://fastfl04.proboards58.com/inde...ead=1129128755

Chubby · 10-12-2005, 11:03 PM

and when caught they should accept a fair penalty. the fair penalty is expulsion and being black listed in MP leagues IMO.

VPI97 · 10-12-2005, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chubby

and when caught they should accept a fair penalty. the fair penalty is expulsion and being black listed in MP leagues IMO.

Yep. Cheating in an online league is a indicator of very low character. I'd question the leadership of any league that allowed someone with that type of morals to stay as an active member.

Chubby · 10-12-2005, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VPI97

Yep. Cheating in an online league is a indicator of very low character. I'd question the leadership of any league that allowed someone with that type of morals to stay as an active member.

especially in an instance here where there is no "gray" area, it's clearly cheating.

Dutch · 10-12-2005, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

Funny you should say that. If I'm not mistaken, one of the leagues this GMac is in, the DFL, is a pay league.

People pay money to play with this dude??? Oh man...

WrongWay · 10-12-2005, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

Come one, WrongWay. You could've shared this with us over here.

http://fastfl04.proboards58.com/inde...ead=1129128755

I stand behind these statements.

Like all sports in real life there are other punishments than the death penalty. This cheat has that Nascar feel where they "accidentally" run with an illegal part. You know total B.S. to say "Oops" but they try anyway.

Or, maybe more like Sammy Sosa; Do you think Sammy Sosa should of been thrown out of baseball forever for using a corked bat?

sovereignstar · 10-12-2005, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WrongWay

I stand behind these statements.

Like all sports in real life there are other punishments than the death penalty. This cheat has that Nascar feel where they "accidentally" run with an illegal part. You know total B.S. to say "Oops" but they try anyway.

Or, maybe more like Sammy Sosa; Do you think Sammy Sosa should of been thrown out of baseball forever for using a corked bat?

Dude, what you're saying it totally fucked up. You're comparing professional sports with what is supposed to be a recreational game.

You know what? I don't even want to debate this cause it's so totally ridiculous.

WrongWay · 10-12-2005, 11:55 PM

Really, cause every MP league out there is trying its best to simulate the real world as close as possible. And handing out the death penalty for every punishment just does not happen in the real world.

Does it?

WrongWay · 10-12-2005, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

Dude, what you're saying it totally fucked up. You're comparing professional sports with what is supposed to be a recreational game.

You mean in activities that do not involve money....Say like the Olympics? Or, hell how about Little League Baseball?

VPI97 · 10-12-2005, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WrongWay

Really, cause every MP league out there is trying its best to simulate the real world as close as possible. And handing out the death penalty for every punishment just does do happen in the real world.

Does it?

Death penalty for blatant cheating? Yes...see SMU in the mid 80's.

sovereignstar · 10-13-2005, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WrongWay

You mean in activities that do not involve money....Say like the Olympics? Or, hell how about Little League Baseball?

What are you on? Cos' I sure as hell would like some. I would like to be so fucked up tonight that I would be comparing Solecismic's Front Office Football with such things.

WrongWay · 10-13-2005, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

What are you on? Cos' I sure as hell would like some. I would like to be so fucked up tonight that I would be comparing Solecismic's Front Office Football with such things.

I probably just take my little FOF Team a little more serious than I should.

GoldenEagle · 10-13-2005, 12:13 AM

I am 99% sure this guy applied for a spot in the CFL.

I have so much cap room in the CFL, everyone probably thinks I cheat.

PackerFanatic · 10-13-2005, 12:33 AM

As I said in response to WrongWay's post in the FastFL forum, It's the fact that everyone knows this is for fun and when someone blatanty makes it un-fun for other players, they should be punished.

Chubby · 10-13-2005, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WrongWay

I probably just take my little FOF Team a little more serious than I should.

at least make a correct comparsion if you want to compare things...

this is akin to a team sneaking into another teams offices, cutting a player, then signing him for themselves at the vet minimum.

puh-lease, this does not happen in real life.

WrongWay · 10-13-2005, 12:44 AM

What about comparing this to say cheating on your golf game? Not a PGA game, just you and 3 buddies out for a saturday round?

A mulligan?
A better lie?
A 5 instead of a 7?
Hitting the ball from out of bounds?
The maximum Ball limit?

I have to admit that I contiune to play with some cheaters AND I sometimes bend the rules myslef.

PackerFanatic · 10-13-2005, 12:45 AM

This isn't simply bending the rules though. The only way he could have done this was by going into commissioner mode and simming that way. You honestly want a guy in our league that does that? I really hope that no one else is doing it....

Chubby · 10-13-2005, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WrongWay

What about comparing this to say cheating on your golf game? Not a PGA game, just you and 3 buddies out for a saturday round?

A mulligan?
A better lie?
A 5 instead of a 7?
Hitting the ball from out of bounds?
The maximum Ball limit?

I have to admit that I contiune to play with some cheaters AND I sometimes bend the rules myslef.

so I guess I'll be the ass and come out and say what other's are probably thinking.

you're gmac right?

I mean, giving me a fucking break. This isn't some minor bending of the rules going on. You seem hellbent in portraying this as some minor thing when it's a clear and deliberate attempt to blatantly cheat. Like I said, you show me an NFL team that goes releases a player from another team and then signs them for themselves before anyone else gets a chance (or something similar) and we'll talk.

WrongWay · 10-13-2005, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PackerFanatic

This isn't simply bending the rules though. The only way he could have done this was by going into commissioner mode and simming that way. You honestly want a guy in our league that does that? I really hope that no one else is doing it....

I know this is as bad as bad can get and ranks right up their with some kind of Code Hack. But, no I don't think you should just immediately throw the death penalty at him without first hearing his side of the Story.

I do however hope that you and Rails hit him with a hard enough penalty to set an example for the rest of the league about cheating.

MrBigglesworth · 10-13-2005, 12:57 AM

I see wrongway's point, in Imperial one player had some questionable contracts, and in the SFL one player blatently went over the cap for a season in a way that was deemed unfair. Both teams received minor penalties, took their medicine, and are still viable members of the league. But I think what this guy did is clearly outside of the game mechanics and can in no way be construed as an honest mistake. Moreover, he knows he is guilty, because he made the bonus fit in with the rest around him to avoid undue attention.

WrongWay · 10-13-2005, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chubby

so I guess I'll be the ass and come out and say what other's are probably thinking.

you're gmac right?

I don't understand your example. I compared this to the Denver/Elway situation where they entered into an illegal agreement so they could cheat the NFL's salary cap.

And, actually, I am the Whistle Blower on this one.

10-12-2005, 04:26 PM	#105
WrongWay Banned Join Date: Jan 2005	That is something I have never understood about this game. Why is there no Password protection for either the individual teams or at the very least the Commisioner? Last edited by WrongWay : 10-12-2005 at 04:27 PM.

10-12-2005, 04:28 PM	#106
gottimd Dearly Missed (9/25/77-12/23/08) Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: DC Suburbs	Apparently there was discussion about that (password protection) and the overall feeling was that if you can't trust the people in your league, what are you doing in that league. I feel there should be protection. __________________ NAFL New Orleans Saints GM/Co-Commish MP Career Record: 114-85 NAFL Super Bowl XI Champs In memory of Gavin Anthony: 7/22/08-7/26/08

10-12-2005, 04:37 PM	#111
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	While we are on the concept of "cheats," why is it so easy to sign say 3 good OLB or something, and then alternately start 2 every year, and renegotiate the one guy that sat all the previous year for minimal money. Or if your stud QB gets hurt, misses 10 weeks, and comes back fully healed, and now only wants minimum salary. This type of shit isn't as shady as say the gmac contract status, but its every bit as bad. In the future version, something as miniscule as "games started" should not count in regards to a negotiation that takes the salary downward. Maybe if a good player who is still maxed out in skills gets hurt, he may ask for one year of minimal contract money, but never should ask for a 3 or 4 year contract. Last edited by stevew : 10-12-2005 at 04:37 PM.

10-12-2005, 04:57 PM	#112
Raven Hawk College Starter Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Thunderdome	This cheat sounds like it would also work on Franchised Players. Since they are on a 1 year deal with no bonus, they could conceivable be cut during FA2 and resigned at a fraction of what they would be asking if you were to renegotiate their franchise contract. Can somebody verify this? __________________ Owner of The Shreveport Pride in The CFL

10-12-2005, 07:32 PM	#129
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	dola, if that, maybe more like 5-6. I would think the NFL number, if you include guys that bitch about their contract, threaten to hold out, but still show up to camp "for the good of the team" would have to be closer to 20-30 league wide? Easily? Last edited by stevew : 10-12-2005 at 07:33 PM.

10-12-2005, 03:32 PM	#102
WrongWay Banned Join Date: Jan 2005	I am looking at Earl Burns contract. A free Agent he picked up 2 years ago for big money that should of still had old Bonus money attached.

10-12-2005, 04:08 PM	#104
WrongWay Banned Join Date: Jan 2005	You are correct. Earl Burns was playing on a 4 year contract that did not include any Bonus money. And, so were the other Renogiated players for Denver.

10-12-2005, 04:30 PM	#107
Nwobhm Mascot Join Date: Sep 2002	Question: If an owner tried using this technique to extend someone's contract would you see bonuses piggybacked on top of each other? For example: The new cheat contract adds 5million bonus on a 5 year extension. The player in question has two years left on a deal, and the prorated bonus for those 2 years was 1 million each. The new contract bonus structure should look something like this normally: Year 1: 2m bonus with x base salary Year 2: 2m bonus with x base salary Year 3: 1m bonus with x base salary Year 4: 1m bonus with x base salary Year 5: 1m bonus with x base salary Would this cheat eliminate the existing bonuses for years 1+2 from the old deal? From what i gather it would, and the old bonus $ would show up as lost cap room.

10-12-2005, 06:01 PM	#123
Joe Pro Starter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Minneapolis	I would LOVE to hear this dude's explanation.

10-12-2005, 07:27 PM	#128
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	I think that there were maybe like 10 hold outs in the last wigFL offseason, maybe less? I'll pay more attention next year.

10-12-2005, 11:03 PM	#131
Chubby Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Syracuse, NY	and when caught they should accept a fair penalty. the fair penalty is expulsion and being black listed in MP leagues IMO.

10-12-2005, 11:55 PM	#137
WrongWay Banned Join Date: Jan 2005	Really, cause every MP league out there is trying its best to simulate the real world as close as possible. And handing out the death penalty for every punishment just does not happen in the real world. Does it? Last edited by WrongWay : 10-12-2005 at 11:59 PM.

10-13-2005, 12:13 AM	#142
GoldenEagle Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Little Rock, AR	I am 99% sure this guy applied for a spot in the CFL. I have so much cap room in the CFL, everyone probably thinks I cheat. __________________ Xbox 360 Gamer Tag: GoldenEagle014

10-13-2005, 12:33 AM	#143
PackerFanatic Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Appleton, WI	As I said in response to WrongWay's post in the FastFL forum, It's the fact that everyone knows this is for fun and when someone blatanty makes it un-fun for other players, they should be punished. __________________ Commissioner of the RNFL

10-13-2005, 12:44 AM	#145
WrongWay Banned Join Date: Jan 2005	What about comparing this to say cheating on your golf game? Not a PGA game, just you and 3 buddies out for a saturday round? A mulligan? A better lie? A 5 instead of a 7? Hitting the ball from out of bounds? The maximum Ball limit? I have to admit that I contiune to play with some cheaters AND I sometimes bend the rules myslef. Last edited by WrongWay : 10-13-2005 at 12:47 AM.

10-13-2005, 12:45 AM	#146
PackerFanatic Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Appleton, WI	This isn't simply bending the rules though. The only way he could have done this was by going into commissioner mode and simming that way. You honestly want a guy in our league that does that? I really hope that no one else is doing it.... __________________ Commissioner of the RNFL

10-13-2005, 12:57 AM	#149
MrBigglesworth College Starter Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: PA	I see wrongway's point, in Imperial one player had some questionable contracts, and in the SFL one player blatently went over the cap for a season in a way that was deemed unfair. Both teams received minor penalties, took their medicine, and are still viable members of the league. But I think what this guy did is clearly outside of the game mechanics and can in no way be construed as an honest mistake. Moreover, he knows he is guilty, because he made the bonus fit in with the rest around him to avoid undue attention.

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