Microsoft Surface announcement

[ISiddiqui]

You are making it seem as that's only something that Apple has. All the Android users who had apps under Gingerbread can use them under Ice Cream Sandwich.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

I don't understand why you'd include it when everything is going to be about touch and voice commands in the future. It looks like an outdated feature from 1998. Everything costs. It's more an observation on design philosophy that still pervades msft than a personal preference. Like I doubt J Allard would have included one.

"Everything"? Not quite...

I totally get that a stylus is a niche use device for tablets. But you'd be hard pressed to find any artist that would be willing to switch to a tablet for production unless they had a stylus.

Beyond that, the use is minimal. Most people will discard their stylus. But the notion that the idea of a stylus is dated thinking is completely false - there are applications that absolutely require the precision of a stylus. Voice can't draw for you and touch will always be less precise (and not precise enough for the vast majority of artist needs).

So again, unless including a stylus radically increases the price - and I see no reason it would - it's not "backwards thinking" nor is it a waste. It's basically a throw-in that most people will discard.

[Daimyo]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

You are making it seem as that's only something that Apple has. All the Android users who had apps under Gingerbread can use them under Ice Cream Sandwich.

I'm pretty sure MS didn't allow app backwards compatibility when they moved to WP7 (I honestly wrote them off and stopped following their phone products completely the day they announced that -- other than to marvel at the 1% market share they lost EVERY month over the next year -- maybe they didn't follow through?). Marc claimed Apple didn't either... I have no quarrel with Android.

[stevew]

Surface with Windows RT - Microsoft Store Online

[stevew]

Those price points suck for the limited version of the tablet. At least they could have launched at 499 with the keyboard.

[cartman]

The initial stock of pre-sales units has already sold out.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Daimyo

I'm pretty sure MS didn't allow app backwards compatibility when they moved to WP7 (I honestly wrote them off and stopped following their phone products completely the day they announced that -- other than to marvel at the 1% market share they lost EVERY month over the next year -- maybe they didn't follow through?). Marc claimed Apple didn't either... I have no quarrel with Android.

I didn't claim they blocked backward compatibility - just that its something each developer has to decide upon whether they support etc.

Its also worth considering that with the advent of iOS6 Apple have specifically blocked off earlier devices/OS revisions - its now no longer possible for me to support an iPhone3g for instance if I wish to also support an iPhone5.

(again this is nothing new and is a natural evolution, its something all platform holders do - I'm just pointing out that this sort of thing isn't unusual at all ... incidentally I do concur that Microsoft not doing back-compatibility with WP7 was bloody stupid )

[MacroGuru]

The office bought the 64GB version and I will be playing with that. When the pro comes out they will buy that one...but I will be buying a pro for myself when they launch it.

We are a straight Microsoft shop, but use Android and iPads currently for some of the software one of our vendors have developed.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by cartman

The initial stock of pre-sales units has already sold out.

Not being cynical but this rarely means anything - most electronics devices are 'planned' to sell out to make them appear popular imho ....

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by stevew

Those price points suck for the limited version of the tablet. At least they could have launched at 499 with the keyboard.

+1. I would have liked to see a $399 model (with keyboard cover), even if it meant 16GB or what have you. I'm a WP7 fan and love the 'metro' style, but I don't see how they compete with the iPad at those price points. I've personally moved from "probably going to get one" to "not likely to get one".

[Daimyo]

Originally Posted by cartman

The initial stock of pre-sales units has already sold out.

Did they sell them to their distributors/retail partners or did they actually sell them through to customers?

A lot of these iPad killers announce something like 1,000,000 in sales! Only to then write off 800,000 later as being sold to retail stores and taken back when they're not sold through to customers...

[mckerney]

Way to much for me to consider picking up an RT version, though I don't have a whole lot of interest in something that's going to be locked into the Windows Metro (or whatever they're calling it now) store.

[stevew]

Nobody bought one yet?

[booradley]

Originally Posted by stevew

Nobody bought one yet?

This. How do I know if I want one unless some of you people Guinea Pig it for me?

[Comey]

I'm waiting for the Pro, or another similar one. A tablet I can run sim games on? Yes please.

[QuikSand]

According to the tee-vee, the main reason I need to get this is so I can sit at a picnic table full of suitably diverse people from Seattle and exchange the little snap-on keyboards to the beat of snappy instrumental score.

So, I'm on the fence.

[Desnudo]

I think you have your answer

[jeff061]

If having a dozen people dress you in a suit made of Surfaces doesn't get you off the fence, I don't know what will.

[stevew]

Surface Pro is 900/1000 for the 64/128

DOA

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33642_7-57556219-292/surface-pro-price-tag-$899/

[Marc Vaughan]

I REALLY don't get what Microsoft are trying to do tbh - they've effectively priced the Surface out of any potential market-place it had ... heck I can get a very decent specced laptop for far under that price or two iPads .... confused ...

[MacroGuru]

Damn that is pricey...well, guess the Surface Pro isn't how I go...I will see what my boss has to say tomorrow about the Pro's price tag.

Might have to go with the thinkpad 2..

[jeff061]

I was using one of their RT versions at the mall. Didn't realize it came with a full blown Windows Desktop. It's basically a laptop interface with touchpad/cursor and keyboard when you hide the metro display. Didn't think you could do that with the RT.

Actually liked that quite a bit, could legitimately use it for Word, Excel, etc. I had the perception the office suite would be a useless bastardization.

As for SurfacePro. It's priced in line with a decent laptop, isn't it? Maybe my perception of laptop costs are inaccurate.

[jeff061]

It's also possible the Pro version only exists for marketing and they only really care about RT.

[JediKooter]

All I know is, if I see that damn Surface commercial where they are dancing while they are clicking the keyboard onto the Surface, one more time, I'm going to start punching kittens.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by stevew

Surface Pro is 900/1000 for the 64/128

DOA

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33642_7-57556219-292/surface-pro-price-tag-$899/

I was strongly considering one, but that price tag is WAY too much.

[ISiddiqui]

Too much?

People were saying if it was under $1000 it was a great deal. I mean its a full features Win8 tablet/laptop replacement.

I mean how much do people think full featured ultrabooks like MacBook Air and Samsung Series 9 go for? Add a touchscreen on top of that.

[stevew]

It's 2x the price of an IPad and is only 10.6". That seems crazy to pay full laptop prices for such a small screen. at a grand you can throw in a few hundred more and get almost anything.

[ISiddiqui]

The 11 inch MacBook Air is $1000 and has 64 GB of HDD storage. And no touchscreen.

That's what Surface RT is competing against. High end ultrabooks.

[jeff061]

Yeah, not sure why people were expecting tablet prices. It's not a tablet at least not in the ipad mold.

[Scoobz0202]

I don't think the price is that ridiculous. It will be more once you add in the smart case.

My only pause would be this. It is trying to be both a tablet and a laptop. How good is it at each on its own? As a tablet, is it as good as an iPad or a Nexus 10. How is it to hold for an extended time (It weighs a half pound more than an iPad I believe). How is it's battery life? Is it closer to 4-5 hours that a laptop gets or can it compete with a the leaders of the tablet market in that regard? Does it get warm?

As a laptop, how does that processor perform compared to the laptop varieties? How is the screen and viewing angle with that case?

Essentially, I doubt it will be able to compete with the leading tablets as a tablet and similarly priced laptops as just a laptop replacement, but does it do both of those good enough to be able to replace both of those items is the question.

You're looking at what, $1050 all said and done? Maybe closer to $1100. Will it be better than say, a Nexus 10 and a $700 laptop (A Lenovo can be had for that.) If you are an apple guy, you're looking at close to double the Windows but you're trying to get the Apple fanbase which will be tough anyways.

[Desnudo]

They're pricing like a market leader when they're not. That price does not include the keyboard either. Clearly targeting IT departments. Probably some stupidity related to oem competition as well.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by jeff061

Yeah, not sure why people were expecting tablet prices. It's not a tablet at least not in the ipad mold.

I don't think its priced sensibly - its basically a 'laptop replacement' but priced at the far high end of that range without any persuasive reasoning for it being worthwhile at that price.

Add to that lossy input (which all tablets have) and to me its a less productive item being sold as an 'mobile' office productivity tool.

The iPad 'gets away' with its lossy input etc. because its sold either to companies using it for specialized tasks using custom applications (ie. stock input etc.) or casual users who don't require accurate input.

If I'm writing code or a design document I want to be able to type fast and accurately and also use a mouse for drawing rather than prodding a screen which is 'propped' up - bah humbug.

(and if it can support a mouse then basically you're paying extra to expand it into a laptop which is cumbersome to setup on the move ... so what exactly is the point? ... Acer did this with Android/Linux ages ago and found the uptake limited, so they discontinued that approach)

I hope I'm wrong as I think a third alternative to Android/iPad would be healthy for competition and the market in general - but I'm not convinced by what I've seen so far tbh.

[jeff061]

I don't think you understand what the pro version is.

Or maybe I don't. It's a straight up full blown laptop. Get a mouse, use a touchpad, it runs the same OS your desktop does. It's not competing with iOS or Android any more than a Dell laptop is.

Hell, like I said earlier, even the RT version(the actual iPad alternative) supports cursor input as a replacement for touchscreen if you desire.

[stevew]

I feel like the smart keyboard would be like typing on a blue maxi pad.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by jeff061

I don't think you understand what the pro version is.
Or maybe I don't. It's a straight up full blown laptop. Get a mouse, use a touchpad, it runs the same OS your desktop does. It's not competing with iOS or Android any more than a Dell laptop is.

My current instincts is that if people really wanted a tablet which you could bolt things onto to turn into a laptop then one of the 'alternative' touchscreen laptops with a detachable screen would have 'gone big' in recent years - a few have come and gone without even so much as a splash.

For example:
Laptop Blog: New tablet pc/netbook with a detachable screen (from 2009!)
HP Launches New Hybrid Tablet, Laptops, Desktops Ahead of Windows 8 - Desktops and Notebooks - News & Reviews - eWeek.com

Hell, like I said earlier, even the RT version(the actual iPad alternative) supports cursor input as a replacement for touchscreen if you desire.

So did the Android/Linux systems which were released 18 months or more ago - they had similar issues with setup/cumbersome nature and have been discontinued (and those were FAR cheaper than the Surface is being pitched at).

As I said - I hope I'm wrong, I'd like to see Win8 mobile/tablet gain traction and become a viable alternative to Android/iOS ... not least because I really like the style of Metro and think it could provide some interesting innovation.

PS - I bought a keyboard cover for my iPad when I got it, I found it bloody awful to use so haven't bothered more than once or twice, I sincerely hope surface isn't .... if its done well (and it'll have to be bloody well done) then perhaps it might validate the high price, I just feel its being priced as 'Premium' without having the kudo's at present to pull it off.

[jeff061]

Well it will work with any Bluetooth keyboard, you don't have to get a "cover" version.

I typed with the cheap blue cloth keyboard thing, that was horrible, didn't feel much better than typing on cardboard with drawn on keys. Plastic one is much better, though I think for work I'd prefer a more standard size keyboard.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

My current instincts is that if people really wanted a tablet which you could bolt things onto to turn into a laptop then one of the 'alternative' touchscreen laptops with a detachable screen would have 'gone big' in recent years - a few have come and gone without even so much as a splash.

It's a new day. Touchscreen has been gaining more and more, even since the original iPad came out. Windows 8 is optimized for touchscreens. A lot of touchscreen laptops are about to come out to take advantage of Windows 8 capabilities there. I'm pretty sure Apple is going to soon combine the MacBook Air with the iPad to create a touchscreen laptop there as well. Microsoft is just coming to the market first(ish) with it.

[Glengoyne]

I'm an IOS junkie, but I'm rooting for the surface. I also think that a tablet format PC in 2009 cant be compared to today. That was pre iPad. The iPad changed everything. I don't really think there even was a tablet market in 2009. Now there are two in my house.

[Jughead Spock]

It's not an iPad competitor, it's an ultrabook competitor. I think it's right in the ballpark for anything with an i5 and a full-blown OS. If you're not looking for either, it's obviously not the solution.

I've been looking at the Lenovo IdeaPad Yoga as my next PC purchase, but this gives me pause. Will wait and see some reviews, and hopefully get some hands-on.

It's so weird rooting for Microsoft as the underdog, but I'm kinda hoping this takes hold. Maybe if they'd get rid of Ballmer, I'd be more behind them.

[Desnudo]

I'm rooting for msft too - unfortunately it looks like they're trodding the same road and making the same mistakes they have in the past; I mean who doesn't include the keyboard as base on the Pro? The only successful new product they launched into an existing market they soaked up hardware losses for years.

If they're relying on IT purchasing then they are attaching themselves to a dinosaur model that will be dead in a few years.

[ISiddiqui]

It should be great for full featured games (which can't run on iOS or Android). Civ5's new touchscreen capabilities was just announed. You can only do that on the Surface Pro or other touchscreen laptops. iPads, Nexus's, etc. don't really have the horsepower to run it.

[Scoobz0202]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

I'm rooting for msft too - unfortunately it looks like they're trodding the same road and making the same mistakes they have in the past; I mean who doesn't include the keyboard as base on the Pro? The only successful new product they launched into an existing market they soaked up hardware losses for years.

I know Asus didn't for their transformer, but that is a tablet and a tablet only. You would kind of expect, or hope I guess, that it would be included in something that is a laptop replacement.

[jeff061]

Got a Surface RT from girlfriend for Christmas. I have to say I'm extremely impressed. I have zero interest in an iPad. While I've enjoyed my Android based phone, the Android tablet experience has been extremely poor when I've used them(slow, not refined, just a sloppy feel). I didn't share either of those thoughts with her(or asked that she bought a tablet, too much $$$), but she still got me the Surface.

Surface in my opinion is damn near perfectly designed, it's extremely tight and quick like the iPad with the openness of Android. Of course the killer issue is definitely there...lack of apps. That scene is strikingly dismal even when you are expecting it, get ready to pay for decent third party apps for Facebook, Twitter, Youtube, etc. or using free lackluster alternatives. Hoping that picks up and this great little device has some staying power.

I'm also able to use my Live enabled gmail account for the store, cloud sync, sky drive and everything else. Creation of MS email account not needed. I was concerned about that, but it just uses the same account I have setup for XBox.

[jeff061]

Oh, one note, the cheap keyboard cover without any tactile feedback is garbage. It's like typing on cardboard with a keyboard drawn on it in marker. Buy a cheap cover and an actual portable Bluetooth keyboard instead(Logitech makes a nice one) if you really want an alternative to the on screen KB.

[MacroGuru]

Originally Posted by jeff061

I'm also able to use my Live enabled MS account for the store, cloud sync, sky drive and everything else. Creation of MS email account not needed. I was concerned about that, but it just uses the same account I have setup for XBox.

XBOX Smart Glass App, check it out...

[Subby]

I googled holiday sales and it looks like Apple crushed MSFT in the tablet wars, but I am not seeing any hard sales data. Curious if the Surface has really gained any traction in the tablet market - or is it just another Windows Phone.

[Fidatelo]

What makes the Surface have "the openness of Android"? Win8RT is just as closed off as an iPad from what I have seen.

[jeff061]

It's pretty damn easy to get under the hood or boot to other media to load your own OS. There's a lot of advanced options in the stock load. No rooting or cracking needed.

You can't do dick with iOS.

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by Subby

I googled holiday sales and it looks like Apple crushed MSFT in the tablet wars, but I am not seeing any hard sales data. Curious if the Surface has really gained any traction in the tablet market - or is it just another Windows Phone.

When she bought my tablet she talked to the MS sales reps, they said they had sold very few. I'm expecting a blip at best against both Android and Apple.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by jeff061

It's pretty damn easy to get under the hood or boot to other media to load your own OS. There's a lot of advanced options in the stock load. No rooting or cracking needed.

You can't do dick with iOS.

I'm not sure I understand what the advanced options are. It's not like you can just download software willy-nilly as you could on a full Windows machine. There is the Store and that's about it. Do you just mean that you can mess around with live tiles and stuff in terms of customizations?