Could You Live on Minimum Wage?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Samdari

40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year @ 7.25 per hour is:

$15080

The only way degreed people make that is if they end up flipping burgers. If they take entry level but career track jobs, they've got to make 30, don't they?

$10/hour is pretty common for administrative office-type jobs (many of which are filled with college graduates). That's about $21,000/year.

A college degree isn't what it used to be (especially one that doesn't bring with it a marketable skill). What kind of job do you guys think an undergrad Psychology or English major with mediocre grades from a crappy school are getting right out of college? There's not much out there.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by molson

$10/hour is pretty common for administrative office-type jobs (many of which are filled with college graduates). That's about $21,000/year.

A college degree isn't what it used to be (especially one that doesn't bring with it a marketable skill). What kind of job do you guys think an undergrad Psychology or English major with mediocre grades from a crappy school are getting right out of college? There's not much out there.

This is the first link I found when googling:

Job Outlook for 2008 Graduates

assuming this chart is accurate, you're just way off base.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I'm not angry at the minimum wage. I'm saying I don't think it's as horrible as some people say. That if you were told you'd have to survive on this and only this, you definitely would be able to.

We are able to survive on minimal things if we are forced to. I'm not advocating denying poor people a fair minimum wage. I am saying that with our backs to the wall, we could all survive on that if we needed to. That giving people crutches along the way hurts them more than just saying "you're going to have to do this on your own".

Or giving people crutches allows them to survive the experience and actually get a better job. One of the many things you're forgetting about is that when stuck in a cycle of min-wage jobs people never have time to A) be injuured or recover from an injury, B) get an education, C) look for a better job, D) do anything proactive about their health, their home or their family. People stuck in a cycle of multiple min-wage jobs aren't generally climbing up the ladder unless they get very lucky. They're reading water. Sometimes a boost up is what they need.

[BigDawg]

Sure, I done it for the last 5 months ( unemployment ) plus my wife and son have to pitch in. here is the break down....

Me - 275 week unemployment
Wife - 200 week part time ( she has medical )
Son - 175 week part time ( he has medical )

House payment - 950 month
Car payment - 300 month
Elct/Gas - 200 month
Cable/Internet/Phone - 100 month
Food - average family of 5 about 600 month
gas for car 200 month
Car insurance...NONE !!!

Its a family of 5 two kids still in school.

Bank Account long gone, several credit cards maxed and in default.

I also recieve 350 a month in food stamps now, lost on car in Feb so everyone has to share 1 car which is a major pain in the ass. I have had a couple of job offers but because of the distance or hours I couldnt do it with only 1 car.

Michigan is a mother to find a job right now, I am 46 and this is the first time in my life I couldnt find some kind of job in 1 or 2 days. I was at several job offers where I was sitting next to guys that use to make 20+ bucks an hour at FORDS or GM. Its crazy you go to places that expect several years of experiance but dont want to pay more than 8-9 bucks an hour.

So unless things change drasticly I have to look for a cheaper place to live or possibly sell car and get 2 junk cars but than you have repair expences.

[Autumn]

That 30 Days episode is pretty good, the Nickel and Dimed book is even better for those interested in this topic. Frankly there's a lot that people don't think about, mostly having to do with the difficulty of getting jobs when you have nothing to start with. Most of us started off with a supportive family, perhaps some education, perhaps the right skin color and gender. That's a bigger help than we realize.

If you need a place to stay and don't have a job and are forced to start off staying in a motel until you can get a job and then try to work up a security deposit while you're paying to live in a hotel you quickly dig yourself a hole. If you have to spend the day in the emergency room getting help for an injury and get fired from a job, and then have a hospital bill as well as the need to quickly find another job, and you have no savings, surviving becomes harder. That's hard to see when you have a family you can crash with, or you're healthy from years of not having to do hard manual labor.

Basically I think your assumptions Rainmaker, were faulty to begin with. But if the real point of your thread is that you don't want AC Assistance on the federal dollar perhaps you should start that thread.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by BigDawg

FORDS

True Michigander speak.

Seriously, though, I hope things get better. A lot of my family in and around Detroit are in really bad shape. My uncle does auto design work and has been in and out of jobs for about 5 years. His own brother (my other uncle) had to lay him off before the company went under, and he's been getting hired and laid off every 6 months or so since then.

[Pumpy Tudors]

As someone who has a liberal arts degree (with honors), and as a sibling of someone with a liberal arts degree, and as someone who knows several other people with liberal arts degrees, I am willing to vouch for at least part of what molson is saying. Please do not assume that a college degree is a ticket to a sure $30k/year or even close to that. When you walk in with a communications degree, an English degree, or a history degree, it is hard as hell to convince a lot of companies to even take your work skills seriously, not to mention convincing them to pay you a decent wage if they do choose you.

It's no accident that it took me four years after graduation to start getting paid what many of you would consider reasonable for a college grad. That's just reality for a lot of people with liberal arts degrees. Hell, it may be reality for people with other degrees, too, but I can only speak for the experiences that I know very well.

[stevew]

Agreed with pumpy-

My wife has a history degree with an education minor and has had a hard time finding too much more than 20k/year jobs in our area. I mean, you can apply for everything, but if you're not getting the call backs it gets frustrating.

Not to mention that if you're making an ok, but not spectacular wage, it's not a good thing to be constantly looking or you could easily spook your current employer and be left with a worse job than you currently have.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

My friend and I were arguing about this over the weekend. I was trying to make a case that it could be done. In fact, my belief is that the whining about this is completely overblown. Now here are the factors in place:

- You can live wherever you want.
- $6.55 an hour and 40 hours a week
- You have health insurance through your company

If I had that, I truly believe I could easily survive. Now life wouldn't be very extravvegent, but I could definitely get by.

I know my wife couldn't.

[molson]

Originally Posted by wade moore

This is the first link I found when googling:

Job Outlook for 2008 Graduates

assuming this chart is accurate, you're just way off base.

So the AVERAGE starting liberal arts graduate salary is $34,700, which I think supports what I'm saying. Average salaries are very misleading, because there's a lot of room up from the average, but very little room below the average to give you an accurate picture of what's going on. If you get a bunch of people in the low 20s, and then a smaller number in the 50s-60s or higher, you get an average like $34k. (I wasn't saying that most college graduates are in the 20s, but a lot are, especially those at the lower end of schools and accomplishments, though of course these days, people beyond that are affected as well)

Also, I didn't go further into the methodology of those numbers, but they usually only include those that are working full-time. Many recent college graduates are working PT type jobs, both because of the economy, and really to extend the college years a little by easing their way into the workplace. It also doesn't include those that aren't looking for a job, because they think living off the parents for a little longer is better than working for peanuts (or their spouse can support them)

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by BigDawg

Sure, I done it for the last 5 months ( unemployment ) plus my wife and son have to pitch in. here is the break down....

Me - 275 week unemployment
Wife - 200 week part time ( she has medical )
Son - 175 week part time ( he has medical )

House payment - 950 month
Car payment - 300 month
Elct/Gas - 200 month
Cable/Internet/Phone - 100 month
Food - average family of 5 about 600 month
gas for car 200 month
Car insurance...NONE !!!

Its a family of 5 two kids still in school.

Bank Account long gone, several credit cards maxed and in default.

I also recieve 350 a month in food stamps now, lost on car in Feb so everyone has to share 1 car which is a major pain in the ass. I have had a couple of job offers but because of the distance or hours I couldnt do it with only 1 car.

Michigan is a mother to find a job right now, I am 46 and this is the first time in my life I couldnt find some kind of job in 1 or 2 days. I was at several job offers where I was sitting next to guys that use to make 20+ bucks an hour at FORDS or GM. Its crazy you go to places that expect several years of experiance but dont want to pay more than 8-9 bucks an hour.

So unless things change drasticly I have to look for a cheaper place to live or possibly sell car and get 2 junk cars but than you have repair expences.

Sorry to hear about the financial/job situation. One of my biggest fears is being out of a job for any period of time, especially now that I have actual bills and crap that HAVE to be paid. Good luck with future job hunts.

[Galaxy]

One the problems with degrees is that everyone has them. This is in addition it seems like you need one to even get positions that shouldn't require them (or didn't 10-20 years ago). Throw in the cost to get them, it's tough.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by molson

Average salaries are very misleading, because there's a lot of room up from the average, but very little room below the average to give you an accurate picture of what's going on. If you get a bunch of people in the low 20s, and then a smaller number in the 50s-60s or higher, you get an average like $34k.

In general, your reasoning is correct. In regards to starting salaries, probably not so much.

I would say NOBODY with just a liberal arts degree and no experience gets more than 68k as a starting salary. Thus, there is just as much room above than below in this case.

It also is probably dragged down from what people really make by sales jobs. My brother's first job was selling insurance. His salary was $12,000 - but he made over 50k.

EDIT: My first point is backed up somewhat by simple googling. The average starting salary of all new grads in wades link was 46,000. The median was 43,000. This indicates a distribution that is only slightly shifted to the lower end - i.e. roughly equal numbers above and below the mean. It would seem to point to the median starting salary for liberal arts degrees at ~33,000.

Originally Posted by molson

A college degree isn't what it used to be (especially one that doesn't bring with it a marketable skill). What kind of job do you guys think an undergrad Psychology or English major with mediocre grades from a crappy school are getting right out of college? There's not much out there..

Well, Wade's data based on actual salaries indicate that a college degree is worth more than ever - at least in terms of raw dollars.

As for what what undergrad psych and English majors make with mediocre grades from crappy schools - sure, they get the bottom of that distribution (someone has to be there you knw). Actually, right now, there is probably nothing for them out there. I would not want to be them right now at all. That's one thing these salaries don't take into account - those who don't get jobs. I never meant to argue that a liberal arts degree was an automatic ticket to a $30,000 job. I think its normally difficult to get a job with that and absolutely brutal this year, but that people who get salaried jobs with l.a. degrees do make quite a bit more than minimum wage.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by BigDawg

Sure, I done it for the last 5 months ( unemployment ) plus my wife and son have to pitch in. here is the break down....

Me - 275 week unemployment
Wife - 200 week part time ( she has medical )
Son - 175 week part time ( he has medical )

House payment - 950 month
Car payment - 300 month
Elct/Gas - 200 month
Cable/Internet/Phone - 100 month
Food - average family of 5 about 600 month
gas for car 200 month
Car insurance...NONE !!!

Its a family of 5 two kids still in school.

Bank Account long gone, several credit cards maxed and in default.

I also recieve 350 a month in food stamps now, lost on car in Feb so everyone has to share 1 car which is a major pain in the ass. I have had a couple of job offers but because of the distance or hours I couldnt do it with only 1 car.

Michigan is a mother to find a job right now, I am 46 and this is the first time in my life I couldnt find some kind of job in 1 or 2 days. I was at several job offers where I was sitting next to guys that use to make 20+ bucks an hour at FORDS or GM. Its crazy you go to places that expect several years of experiance but dont want to pay more than 8-9 bucks an hour.

So unless things change drasticly I have to look for a cheaper place to live or possibly sell car and get 2 junk cars but than you have repair expences.

damn man. let us know if there's anything we can do. what's your field?

[molson]

Originally Posted by Samdari

.

I would say NOBODY with just a liberal arts degree and no experience gets more than 68k as a starting salary. Thus, there is just as much room above than below in this case.

It can happen with family businesses and top graduates from elite schools who work in major metro areas. It doesn't take much to skew those numbers upwards.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

$10/hour is pretty common for administrative office-type jobs (many of which are filled with college graduates). That's about $21,000/year.

Matches what I know about it anecdotally. Lots of file clerks with a degree to hang on their office wall (if they ever have an office wall to hang it on that is).

And to go along with my $10/hr fast food workers here, that's also what office clerical workers, AP/AR workers, accounting clerks, etc are getting paid too.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by molson

$10/hour is pretty common for administrative office-type jobs (many of which are filled with college graduates). That's about $21,000/year.

A college degree isn't what it used to be (especially one that doesn't bring with it a marketable skill). What kind of job do you guys think an undergrad Psychology or English major with mediocre grades from a crappy school are getting right out of college? There's not much out there.

I agree on the first part that I know plenty of 4 year degreed secretaries, construction workers, etc. making $10/hour.


However what I think you may be overlooking is that while to someone making 100k/year there seems to be little difference between $10/hr ($21kannually) and min wage.


21k represents a 30+% pay raise from min wage.

[lordscarlet]

Even if we accept molson's point of view on starting salaries, how is $10/hr plus benefits anywhere close to comparable to $7.50 without benefits? I am assumign a filing clerk gets benefits, but in dollars alone that is, by molson's numbers. That's 33% more than minimum wage. I don't really see how you can compare the two. That also likely guarantees a 40 work week's worth of pay, whereas many minimum wage jobs can not guarantee that.

[molson]

Ya, there definitely is some difference (less so when you factor in the cost of college and spending 4 years out of the workforce), but I guess I was thinking about it in the context of wondering how much higher people think minimum wage needs to be to create a "livable" wage? Any meaningful increase would push it ever-closer to those low-level administrative jobs. Maybe then those salaries would need to go up to attract graduates (assuming someone with a degree is even desired for those kinds of jobs), but then what does that do to the unemployment numbers?

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by BigDawg

Sure, I done it for the last 5 months ( unemployment ) plus my wife and son have to pitch in. here is the break down....

Me - 275 week unemployment
Wife - 200 week part time ( she has medical )
Son - 175 week part time ( he has medical )

House payment - 950 month
Car payment - 300 month
Elct/Gas - 200 month
Cable/Internet/Phone - 100 month
Food - average family of 5 about 600 month
gas for car 200 month
Car insurance...NONE !!!

So I feel kind of like a dick (or Jon) for saying this, but if money is so tight that you can't afford to keep your auto insurance, don't you think it's time for the cable and internet to go? I would much rather deal with a lack of entertainment than get hit with a ticket for not having insurance...

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

So I feel kind of like a dick (or Jon) for saying this, but if money is so tight that you can't afford to keep your auto insurance, don't you think it's time for the cable and internet to go? I would much rather deal with a lack of entertainment than get hit with a ticket for not having insurance...

You definitely weren't the only one thinking this. I don't want to do what RainMaker is doing, though, and act like it is easy to figure out unless you're in that situation. However, I think cable and interent would be the first to go if I found myself in that situation. Particularly because I have a laptop and can go somewhere with free wifi if necessary. There's also the library. I don't know -- if I have a family of 5 and I'm struggling to get by, things that prevent catastrophic costs are more important to me than entertainment. But you know your finances and willingness to take risks better than we do.

[Ksyrup]

Is it that easy to go without car insurance? Here, every year we have to pay for registration and must show proof of insurance. Are people faking it, or do most states not require that?

[JeeberD]

It's required in Texas. Hell, Dallas now has a system where they can run a cars plates and find out if it's insured or not...

[larrymcg421]

The biug red flag I see is not just the lack of auto insurance, but that he also has a car payment. You are taking a big risk, because if the lender finds out, they will come and take your car.

[molson]

All states require some minimum liability insurance. You can risk yourself and your property by going without collision and comprehensive (though as larrymcg321 pointed out, your leaseholder probably requires it), but you can't put others at risk of your driving mistakes.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Is it that easy to go without car insurance? Here, every year we have to pay for registration and must show proof of insurance. Are people faking it, or do most states not require that?

You cannot mail in your registration? Or do it over the web? Most states you do.

Most places you have to show proof of insurance to register, but not to renew. Most places also do two year registrations now, so you could make one monthly insurance payment, get proof, and then drive uninsured for the next 23 months, or until you get stopped for something.

The insurance company will notify your state agency when they cancel your insurance, but that's just an entry in a computer database, they don't send cops out to apprehend uninsured motorists.

Even at the end of your 23 month registration, you could just not renew (since in most places driving un unregistered vehicle is less serious than uninsured). You'd still have tags, and be very unlikely to be caught, unless there was a spot check, or you got stopped for some other reason.

[lordscarlet]

I got into an accident when I was 16 and my insurance had lapsed. It's not a good idea. I got off easy because the court never found out, but it's a BAD idea. At least in Virginia there can be heavy penalties for driving uninsured (I'm pretty sure there are in every state, really). Virginia requires you to at least pay the state $400 to make sure the other person isn't screwed when you hit them.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by molson

All states require some minimum liability insurance. You can risk yourself and your property by going without collision and comprehensive (though as larrymcg321 pointed out, your leaseholder probably requires it), but you can't put others at risk of your driving mistakes.

Not all states.


In SC you can pay a 1 time $500 fee and choose to be uninsured. But you agree to be personally liable for any damages.

[lordscarlet]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

Not all states.


In SC you can pay a 1 time $500 fee and choose to be uninsured. But you agree to be personally liable for any damages.

I believe (but could be mistaken) that that is minimal liability, though, because it gives some protection to the person you hit. I could be wrong, though. In VA it's called an "uninsured motorist" fee.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by lordscarlet

I believe (but could be mistaken) that that is minimal liability, though, because it gives some protection to the person you hit. I could be wrong, though. In VA it's called an "uninsured motorist" fee.

No you can pay the state $500 1 time and never carry even liability insurance again on any vehicle you own. The fee is a documentation fee for them to keep track of your ass anytime you buy a vehicle....

[Pumpy Tudors]

With regards to the whole "person making minimum wage vs. college grad making $10/hour" thing, here's how I see it: The attainable standard of living is damn near the same for both people. Nobody is living a lot better on $21k/year than they are on $15k/year, particularly if you're trying to support more than one person on that income. Be it $21k or $15k, you're still just scraping by. I think it is certainly fair to say that minimum wage is "not much less" than some liberal arts grads are making because there's not much difference in what they're able to do with their money.

To make up an example (and I am just making this up - I am not saying that anyone here has said this - are you listening, internet?):

Sure, it might be easy for someone who makes $75k to say "Well, if I had an extra $6k/year, I could take a vacation or buy a new computer. You can do a lot with $6k extra." What's that $6k mean to someone making minimum wage? Maybe they can afford a little more variety in their dinners. Maybe they can afford to keep up with the maintenance on their car a little more properly (assuming they have a car). Just maybe they're getting a cell phone or basic cable. That additional money is not going to any grand luxuries, though. So my stance is that the person making $10.00/hour is not doing a whole lot better than the person making minimum wage, regardless of how big of a percentage difference there is in salary.

Now, yes, it is somewhat likely that the person making minimum wage is not getting 40 hours per week, but I'm trying to stick at least somewhat to the original topic here. To do that, I'm going to work within the constraints of the post that started this thread, in which it was stated that you're working 40 hours per week with medical benefits through your job. So, given the stated constraints, I just think there ain't much difference between minimum wage and $10/hour.

[CamEdwards]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

How long ago was this? $6.65 ain't what it used to be.

1997. I can assure you it wasn't much then either. I had a beat up car that was paid for, our rent on the top half of a falling down house was $400 per month. We did not have air conditioning, we did not have cable... heck, we didn't even have a frame for our first bed. It sucked. It also motivated me to work my &*$#ing ass off, and now twelve years later I'd consider us to be upper middle class. Minimum wage isn't an economic death sentence, as long as you avoid too many stupid mistakes and are willing to work long and hard to get out of a minimum wage job.

[OldGiants]

For comparison purposes, illiterate ditch diggers (Senior Utility Workers, officially, but that's what they do) average around 27k.

And I know they are illiterate because a small part of my job is to train them to use the computer so they can record their hours in the new time and attendance system I'm helping to install. There's one guy in each crew who signs everyone in to class and then I log every one on ("Oh, you forgot your password? Let me help." wink wink.)

Obviously they aren't going to it, but we need to go through the motions.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by CamEdwards

1997. I can assure you it wasn't much then either. I had a beat up car that was paid for, our rent on the top half of a falling down house was $400 per month. We did not have air conditioning, we did not have cable... heck, we didn't even have a frame for our first bed. It sucked. It also motivated me to work my &*$#ing ass off, and now twelve years later I'd consider us to be upper middle class. Minimum wage isn't an economic death sentence, as long as you avoid too many stupid mistakes and are willing to work long and hard to get out of a minimum wage job.

6.65 in 1997 converts to 8.89 in 2008. That's a pretty significant difference, I think.

And one medical emergency completely fucks all of that up. And all of the hard work might not do you much good if the company decides to lay off/close stores/etc. Then you're fucked because you have no savings.

[k0ruptr]

As far the car insurance thing goes, I know some people that have welfare benefits at least here in hawaii, the government will take care of your car insurance too if you are low income. So maybe he was saying he just didn't pay insurance, but still has it.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

6.65 in 1997 converts to 8.89 in 2008. That's a pretty significant difference, I think.

And one medical emergency completely fucks all of that up. And all of the hard work might not do you much good if the company decides to lay off/close stores/etc. Then you're fucked because you have no savings.

Yes, this debate doesn't need to be polar. Of course plenty of people work their way up from crappy jobs and crappy lives to climb up the economic ladder. And yes, hard work and determination is important. That doesn't have to mean that we assume the only difference between people who do that and people who don't is how hard they work. Not everybody's in the same situation or has the same luck or chances, even if they're both working low-paying jobs. As I've stated above a lot depends on where you start, for one, and what sort of external support you have. A lot of people can't even dream of paying security deposit on even a crappy place to live. That's a hard hole to climb out of, and just one of many that a person can find themselves in.

[Schmidty]

Minimum wage

+



=

Semi-survival.

[Danny]

Not everyone has the same abilities or intelligence either. Some people work their butts off, but aren't capable of moving up like others. I do believe if you work hard you should be able earn a livable wage.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Danny

Not everyone has the same abilities or intelligence either. Some people work their butts off, but aren't capable of moving up like others. I do believe if you work hard you should be able earn a livable wage.

What would you consider a livable wage in the U.S. right now?

Ya, ideally, there could be a "minimum working hard wage", but that's not really possible.

The people with better abilities and intelligence should be better off. I think it's problematic when they drift too low towards the bottom and are just combined in this giant blob of lower-level workers.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Danny

Not everyone has the same abilities or intelligence either. Some people work their butts off, but aren't capable of moving up like others. I do believe if you work hard you should be able earn a livable wage.

Exactly. There are jobs that I'd be able to get that others couldn't, jobs they could get that I can't. I might be able to understand the job and move up in management, someone else may not have the abilities to do that.

Also, the OP allowed the person to live anywhere, but in reality most people are constrained by where they live, most cannot afford to move or don't wish to. And that can put someone in a hole depending on where they are.

[Autumn]

I used to live in Vermont, which has a very active livable wage campaign. The legislature had a detailed analysis done to determine a livable wage for people in different situations:

2008 Livable Wage Figures

[thesloppy]

Purely anecdotal, and only semi-related, but the more a job has paid me, generally the easier the work, and the less of it I am expected to produce.

[larrymcg421]

Yeah, I'd say I work about 1/5th as hard as the average minimum wage worker.

[thesloppy]

Only semi-related again, but this topic and some of the responses remind me of people (stupid friends, of which I have many) who insist that panhandlers are calculating scam artists, making $200 an hour, and living it up when out-of-sight.

Regardless of if that dude makes $5000 dollars an hour, he is still a fucking bum, who spends twelve hours a day standing on an overpass with a cardboard sign, begging people for money, and/or rooting through people's trash for bottle returns. He likely sleeps under a bridge, spends all of his time with other depressed, homeless and/or mentally ill people, and drinks himself to sleep at night on crappy fortified apple wine. He's not really 'pulling a fast one' on you, and even if he somehow manages to magically panhandle for 10 times your income, the salient point should still be that he is a bum, his life sucks, and you would never ever change places with him.

I feel much the same about minimum wage workers. They're getting paid for work done, and I don't think we even have the right to talk about "the ones who work hard" because there are plenty of people who work just-hard-enough in every sector or class, and so long as your working hard enough to keep your job, that's really all that should be expected of you (from me and joe public, at least, your employer may not agree), regardless of your wage. If some dude is mailing it in every single soul-sucking shift he has at McDonalds, doing just barely enough to keep his job, and then he takes every bit of his disposable income and dumps it entirely into luxury items, more power to him. Sounds like half the people I know, except for the wage. Now, I will agree that those are some very low standards, and perhaps now is the time for America to tighten-her-belt/pick-herself-up-by-her-bootstraps/your-grandfathers-favorite-cliche-goes-here, but there's no good reason that burden should start (and apparently end) with the folks making the LEAST amount of money.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

He likely sleeps under a bridge, spends all of his time with other depressed, homeless and/or mentally ill people, and drinks himself to sleep at night on crappy fortified apple wine.

I believe the documented cases of successful scam artists tend to go back to an apartment as nice or nicer than the suckers who gave them money.

... doing just barely enough to keep his job, and then he takes every bit of his disposable income and dumps it entirely into luxury items, more power to him.

Right up until he looks to take cash from other people at gunpoint, i.e. via the government. At that point, fuck him & the horse he rode in on. Matter of fact, in that case, skullfuck his corpse too.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by fantom1979

Tell that to the 739 people that died in Chicago in July of 1995 due to heat. On average, 400 Americans die of heat every year, which is higher on average than the number of people that die from tornadoes, earthquakes, and floods combined. 6,200 Americans are hospitalized every year due to heat, most of those are (you guessed it) poor, uninsured or elderly. I would imagine that we are picking up those hospital bills.

That's an extremely complex event where little accurate data exists. The 739 number was just the number of deaths above the average. It includes people who died of heat stroke who were both inside and outside. Unfortunately heat will always kill people whether it's in their home or at a high school football practice. Unfortunately in Chicago, we don't have the experience that many down South have with this kind of heat. Just as an inch of snow down South can set off Armagedeon.

The deaths were primarily elderly who I have no problem with helping get A/C. But the issue wasn't necessarily lack of A/C, it was the fact that many in crime ridden areas were too afraid to leave their windows open at night. An A/C would have helped in that position, but so would having less crime in their neighborhoods.

Since that time the city has implemented cooling centers throughout the city as well as services that will pick up and check on elderly people and get them to a cooling center. We aren't setup like 1995 anymore.

We differ on what a necessity is. I certainly would agree that for the elderly and some others with disabilities or conditions, A/C is a necessity. But I don't think the average person "needs" A/C to survive. I lived many years in my life without air conditioning and while it can suck, I learned to adapt and get by. I'd imagine many of your parents and grandparents lived without it for good portions of their lives.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Samdari

40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year @ 7.25 per hour is:

$15080

The only way degreed people make that is if they end up flipping burgers. If they take entry level but career track jobs, they've got to make 30, don't they?

You have to add in other factors though. The minimum wage worker is getting Earned Income Credit (especially if they have a kid). They are not paying any income taxes at all as opposed to the guy making $30k. The minimum wage person also potentially qualifies for food stamps and other government assistance programs. At the end of the day, it may look a lot closer than it is.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I believe the documented cases of successful scam artists tend to go back to an apartment as nice or nicer than the suckers who gave them money.

Well, I'd guess in those cases, the apartment would be nicer, and their friends would then be other scam artists and/or scammees. But their job still consists of begging for money in public for hours a day. I suppose the life of a scam artist pretending to be a bum might be better than that of a bum, but it would be a matter of degrees, and I certainly don't expect those people are anywhere near healthy and happy either. Even with the promise of a six figure income and a nice apartment, I don't think anybody (happy and healthy) would gladly take on either role.

Right up until he looks to take cash from other people at gunpoint, i.e. via the government. At that point, fuck him & the horse he rode in on. Matter of fact, in that case, skullfuck his corpse too.

Agree with you there, but I think minimum wage on it's own is still a separate issue.....assistance, on the other hand, is hard to separate from minimum wage. It's like Dr. Seuss'es Star Bellied Sneeches. Just about everybody on assistance is making minimum wage (assuming they're working at all), but that doesn't mean that the majority of minimum wage workers are on assistance (admittedly, I have no idea what those numbers are).

[DaddyTorgo]

so 3 pages in we've all pretty much rebuffed your initial question RainMaker, and yet you're still at it hmm?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

I think we've finally gotten to your point here. If your definition of surviving is living like a poor Central American family, then yes, you can survive on minimum wage.

Isn't that a tad racist though? That because we are American we can't possibly put ourselves down to the level of a Central American in this country? We can't car pool to work, have multiple roommates, or grow our own vegetables in our backyard?