Virginia Tech Campus Shut Down - Shooting Incident

[wade moore]

Dola:

Particularly because of the story involved that seems to be saying that the guy came to the dorm looking for his g/f, and was unable to find here there....

I don't think it's a leap to presume he continued to look for her.

[Izulde]

It's a sad, sad day in any case.

[JPhillips]

I think an unknown guy with a gun that has already killed demands a more serious response. I wouldn't expect them to know there would be more shootings, but you have to assume the worst when the gunman's whereabouts and motives are unknown.

[wade moore]

Note:

I have CNN on now, Blitzer is giving an overview..

He just said that the campus was on lockdown when they got word of the 2nd shooting...

This is why I say I'm confused as to what the true story is.

[King of New York]

There seems to be a lot of conflicting reports: if the campus was on lockdown after the first shooting, then why are students strolling around campus and attending classes being taught in the usual manner as if it were a normal school day?

No doubt the administration had no idea that the first incident would lead to the second incident, but what was to be gained by not locking down the campus and cancelling classes for a day?

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Originally Posted by wade moore

There's a reason that the actions of the folks on the plane in PA are heralded so highly... as much as we all think we would do the same thing, so many times we as humans have proven that we wouldn't.

This is so true... A few years ago a little girl darted out in front of a car just a couple feet from me. Luckily the car stopped in time, because as much as I believed I wold have done something... I simply froze and screamed.

We never know how we'll react to a sudden situation.

I am saddened by both this shooting, and how desensitized I am becoming to such horrible events. 15 years ago this story would be shocking. Now it is just awful.

[Karlifornia]

Damn...insanity...

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by King of New York

There seems to be a lot of conflicting reports: if the campus was on lockdown after the first shooting, then why are students strolling around campus and attending classes being taught in the usual manner as if it were a normal school day?

do we know that classes were being taught?

[GoldenEagle]

Another point to keep in mind is that the hijackers on the plane in PA had knives. I would much rather rush a guy who had a knife then one who had a gun.

[nilodor]

What exactly is a lockdown? Do they just hold students in class? In that case there would be alot wandering around campus anyways? It is a tough decision to make, on the one hand if the person is just wanting to shoot people, you would want to get everyone into rooms (out of the open) if you can't get them off campus but in this case it sounds like they were looking for someone so you've pretty much guaranteed that they will be there by holding them in class. What a shitty deal.

[Subby]

Student describes shooting spree

Student's account

Nikolas Macko was in class at Virginia Tech when a gunman entered the building and started shooting. He described the experience to the BBC News website.

I was in class in Norris Hall at around 0940 when we heard a series of loud bangs coming from the hallway.

The sound did not register immediately, even though it was startlingly loud.

When it started again seconds later, the girl sitting by the door decided to close the door.

She peeked out into the hallway, and saw the shooter, so she immediately closed the door shut.

Three other students moved a table that was in front of the room and barricaded it against the door.

A few seconds later, the shooter tried to open the door, but my classmates kept it well shut, as they held the table against it.

The shooter shot the door twice at chest level, which resulted in two holes in the door, one of which hit the podium in the front of the classroom and the other continued out the window.

'Seriously hurt'

At this point he reloaded, shot the door again - this shot did not penetrate - and moved on to the other classrooms.

As we heard the police arrive outside, the shooting continued, and the officers eventually came through the building

Thankfully, nobody in our room was hurt. At this point, I was already on the phone with the emergency dispatcher, indicating to them that there was a shooting on the second floor of Norris Hall.

The shooting continued for several minutes, until the police arrived, and the shooter must have shot at least 80-100 rounds.

As we heard the police arrive outside the building, the shooting continued, and the officers eventually came through the building.

Even though it seemed to take quite a long time, the timer on my phone seemed to indicate that the whole sequence of events was over in only 25 minutes.

At that point, we were escorted from the building by the police.

Clearly someone had been seriously hurt in the hallway not more than a few paces from our classroom.

I did not look in the adjoining classrooms, but those who did simply told me after that "it was sad".

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/h...nt/6561733.stm

[Subby]

Doesn't sound like they were on lockdown from that account...

[Hurst2112]

horrible. what a sad day.

[Hurst2112]

No lockdown policy according to the VP. he sounded confused.

[Hurst2112]

'classroom building are open all the time' dorms are electronically secured.'

[Ksyrup]

Twenty-five minutes seems like an awfully long time. I mean, I know they not only need to get there but also assess the situation, but it seems clear that this wasn't a hostage situation - shots were constantly being fired.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by wade moore

Dola:

Particularly because of the story involved that seems to be saying that the guy came to the dorm looking for his g/f, and was unable to find here there....

I don't think it's a leap to presume he continued to look for her.

No, not a leap at all, though I'm guessing nobody knew about that story at the time. I can see where a lockdown wouldn't have been so bad, but in most situations it will seem like an overreaction. More often than not when a guy shoots someone, he is probably racing off to hide the gun or himself. Going to a completely different area of the school to do more shooting probably wasn't even a thought.

It wouldn't surprise me if parents sue over the fact that the school wasn't locked down, but the sequence of events (from the school's side) doesn't seem unreasonable.

Sad day for everyone involved. Even going forward, I don't know how you would ever prepare for something like this. Sad that anybody has to.

[Hurst2112]

They keep showing this overweight state cop carrying an AR15 or M16 and running.

He looks out of shape. That's scary.

This campus police chief 'doesn't know' a lot of things. I realize there is an ongoing investigation but does he not know? Or, is he passing on answering the questions?

[Hurst2112]

In the news conference, there isn't an FBI agent on the panel. Wouldn't the FBI or secret service be involved?

[Ryan S]

Originally Posted by Hurst2112

This campus police chief 'doesn't know' a lot of things. I realize there is an ongoing investigation but does he not know? Or, is he passing on answering the questions?

Almost certainly the latter.

[Hurst2112]

I just saw the video that has the 27 shots audible.

Were those campus police just standing there behind trees? There were about 25 shots before it appeared that they breeched the door.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Hurst2112

This campus police chief 'doesn't know' a lot of things. I realize there is an ongoing investigation but does he not know? Or, is he passing on answering the questions?

It's still awfully early to really have answers at this point, so although he's almost certainly passing on some, I do believe there's quite a bit they are still trying to find out.

[Hurst2112]

So the gov. just said that the ATF (if I'm not mistaken is part of the secret service?) is involved with the investigation.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Hurst2112

In the news conference, there isn't an FBI agent on the panel. Wouldn't the FBI or secret service be involved?

It's not a federal case, so no, there wouldn't be any FBI or Secret Service involvement in the investigation (EDIT: Unless the local police asks for it.).

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Hurst2112

So the gov. just said that the ATF (if I'm not mistaken is part of the secret service?) is involved with the investigation.

Not part of the Secret Service, they both are operated under the Department of Treasury.

[Hurst2112]

Originally Posted by sabotai

It's not a federal case, so no, there wouldn't be any FBI or Secret Service involvement in the investigation (EDIT: Unless the local police asks for it.).

Yeah but wouldn't there be some post 911 rules that would allow FBI to take jurisdiction? As well, the gov DID say that the ATF was involved. There is your federal connection.

[McSweeny]

Originally Posted by Hurst2112

Yeah but wouldn't there be some post 911 rules that would allow FBI to take jurisdiction? As well, the gov DID say that the ATF was involved. There is your federal connection.

from what i understand the ATF is involved to track down the weapons the gunman used. Where the came from, how he got them, etc, etc

[Hurst2112]

CNN just reported that federals were assisting in the situation.

[molson]

I really hope we don't get to the point where indefinitely holding 10,000 people against their will while things are sorted out is the response to every act of violence where there's a fatality.

[Oilers9911]

Originally Posted by Subby

My little brother is a junior at Tech. He said right now he is just focused on making sure everyone he knows is okay.

Chris Shue RAA: are you hearing anything from friends?
Charleym14: well
Charleym14: I talked to a couple of people from high school, seems everyone is safe from there
Charleym14: that we know of
Charleym14: all of my freshman engineering buddies are okay
Charleym14: a couple of people I was worried about have logged on or said something on facebook in the last 30 minutes
Charleym14: but im dreading looking at that list
Charleym14: when it comes out

Subby,

My thoughts are with your brother and his friends, and needless to say anyone associated wit VT in any way shape or form. Terrible terrible day. When did simply going to school become a fucking life or death scenario?

[bhlloy]

Just got in... damn what a sad situation.

My first thought is that it's a hell of an assumption to make that the shooter has left campus and isn't a danger to the students, and to send out an e-mail and let the day go on as normal. Whoever made that decision is in a whole world of trouble. I can't imagine what the local police were thinking either. 29 deaths could have been avoided by doing what I would hope would be standard procedure for these kinds of situations.

[molson]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

29 deaths could have been avoided by doing what I would hope would be standard procedure for these kinds of situations.

How could the deaths have been avoided exactly?

The blame game is just too much. I think it can actually hamper the healing process. Crap does happen at universities (like it does anywhere else). Someone here in Idaho got murdered at their off-campus apartment last week near the University of Idaho. There's a much smaller number of people in the immediate area then there was in this instance. The guy got away. No useless lockdowns. And like most murders, it was an isolated incident.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by molson

I really hope we don't get to the point where indefinitely holding 10,000 people against their will while things are sorted out is the response to every act of violence where there's a fatality.

That seems to be what people want.

A campus is a big place, with thousands of people. Image you were at the mall and there was a shooting in the parking lot -- how would you feel if you were told you had to stay where you were for hours, due to a lockdown? It's easy to see that in hindsight that may have saved lives here, but people are acting like it's the obvious answer. It's not.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

That seems to be what people want.

A campus is a big place, with thousands of people. Image you were at the mall and there was a shooting in the parking lot -- how would you feel if you were told you had to stay where you were for hours, due to a lockdown? It's easy to see that in hindsight that may have saved lives here, but people are acting like it's the obvious answer. It's not.

Agreed, and mall's one building. This would be like if a man shot a woman at a mall, and you're detained at starbucks a mile away. You'd be pissed, and constitutionalality of what was happening would be very dubious.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by molson

How could the deaths have been avoided exactly?

The blame game is just too much. I think it can actually hamper the healing process. Crap does happen at universities (like it does anywhere else). Someone here in Idaho got murdered at their off-campus apartment last week near the University of Idaho. There's a much smaller number of people in the immediate area then there was in this instance. The guy got away. No useless lockdowns. And like most murders, it was an isolated incident.

The more I think about this, and after watching the press conference earlier, I'm leaning more this direction...

In hindsight the lockdown seems like a no-brainer... but on the flip side, a lockdown here to me is more equivalent to if in a small town a murder happens in an apartment building, and they put the whole town on lockdown. I'm just not sure it is the obvious decision. I couldn't have faulted that decision, but it just doesn't seem obvious. If they had put it on lockdown and they guy was apprehended 2 hours later, would we be criticizing the school for trapping these kids for 2 hours with no evidence he'd do anything to these other kids?

On top of that, if they were put on lockdown, what would that have done? If kids were already on their way to class at lockdown (when the police responded around 7:30 to the original incident and there are classes at 8:00, I doubt they could get the lockdown before kids got to their classes)... short of an armed guard at every door (not sure you can organize that that fast) how do they stop this specific incident? I just think it's not so black and white as people want to make it out to be.

I'm sure there are lessons to be learned, but I think we need to be careful at how much criticism the authorities get for their decisions.

Now, how moronic the VT President looked in the press conference, there's really no excuse for that. You shouldn't be showing that a Campus Chief of Police has more savvy in front of the media than you.

[Easy Mac]

Michael Savage says its because the liberals won't allow people to carry concealed weapons... as if allowing kids on a college campus would somehow prevent something like this. Also, the media is covering up the fact the kid is asian to be PC.

Why can't idiotic talk show people just let for an event like this speak for itself, the act of a disturbed kid, instead of inserting their stupid political ideologies.

[wade moore]

To add:

I just think it's a bit silly for media, us, etc. to judge what the 'obvious decision' was here.. it was a very tough, VERY unusual situation that I just don't think is so cut and dry and easy to handle as some want to make it.

[larrymcg421]

I think the most important aspect of the timeline that needs to be known is the length of time between school officials knowing that the guy was looking for his girlfriend and they ordered a lockdown. If he was looking for her, and she was obviously a student then yes you shut down the entire school until it gets sorted out. I'm also wondering if she was an engineering student and when they knew that.

Example: If a guy went to a house and shot people while looking for a specific person, and you knew that person worked at the mall, then yes, you shut down the entire mall until he is apprehended.

[molson]

Originally Posted by wade moore

To add:

I just think it's a bit silly for media, us, etc. to judge what the 'obvious decision' was here.. it was a very tough, VERY unusual situation that I just don't think is so cut and dry and easy to handle as some want to make it.

It's really painful to watch the VT administration (who must be grieving themselves) be subject to the attacks I'm seeing at the press conferences. I understand they're just trying to get the info out, but it's shame that our first reaction after a tragedy always has to be liability. Everyone has to be careful about what they say - that's unfortunately the #1 priority at this point.

[st.cronin]

Its way too early to start placing any blame on anybody but the shooter.

[adubroff]

Originally Posted by molson

It's really painful to watch the VT administration (who must be grieving themselves) be subject to the attacks I'm seeing at the press conferences. I understand they're just trying to get the info out, but it's shame that our first reaction after a tragedy always has to be liability. Everyone has to be careful about what they say - that's unfortunately the #1 priority at this point.

The other thing which is really ugly is they really are not dealing with top notch national media which you tend to see national stories of this magnitude because I don't think they've had a time to get on the ground. They are asking questions which they know(or should know) the officer is not going to answer. I understand it's their constitutional right to ask but ultimately they need to use some discretion.

[molson]

Originally Posted by adubroff

The other thing which is really ugly is they really are not dealing with top notch national media which you tend to see national stories of this magnitude because I don't think they've had a time to get on the ground. They are asking questions which they know(or should know) the officer is not going to answer. I understand it's their constitutional right to ask but ultimately they need to use some discretion.

The worst question I heard so far was, "What could you have done differently that would have prevented this attack". Ya, OK.

You're right, there's probably a bunch of local journalist hacks who view this as their big moment.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by molson

How could the deaths have been avoided exactly?

The blame game is just too much. I think it can actually hamper the healing process. Crap does happen at universities (like it does anywhere else). Someone here in Idaho got murdered at their off-campus apartment last week near the University of Idaho. There's a much smaller number of people in the immediate area then there was in this instance. The guy got away. No useless lockdowns. And like most murders, it was an isolated incident.

Three kids here from the University of Wyoming were killed last summer at an off - campus apartment. It was over a girl. One kid actually survived and the gunmen was one of the three killed.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by molson

The worst question I heard so far was, "What could you have done differently that would have prevented this attack". Ya, OK.

You're right, there's probably a bunch of local journalist hacks who view this as their big moment.

Yeah, they've practiced in their mirror for years for this "big moment". You can't fake sincerity and often the "right" question isn't to prod and press and ask the "hard questions" that you feel like people want to know, when clearly the authorities don't know the answer anyway.

[Vince]

[Easy Mac]

I think the problem is trying to apply logic to a completely illogical situation. Its not like something like this is on the plate of a university president before it happens. Their main job is to be a fund raiser, not trying to figure out ways to keep lunatics off campus.

Though, I'm pretty sure that VT dorms do have keycard entrance, but from my experience, they were only on at night.

[adubroff]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

I think the problem is trying to apply logic to a completely illogical situation. Its not like something like this is on the plate of a university president before it happens. Their main job is to be a fund raiser, not trying to figure out ways to keep lunatics off campus.

Though, I'm pretty sure that VT dorms do have keycard entrance, but from my experience, they were only on at night.

Also, campus cops are not hardened NYC street cops most likely. They are guys who probably were regular cops at one point who decided it was smarter to bust underaged drinkers rather than getting shot at. Maybe these guys have the background to deal with this sort of thing (if anybody has that background), but it's got to be deep, deep in the recesses of their backgrounds.

[bronconick]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Example: If a guy went to a house and shot people while looking for a specific person, and you knew that person worked at the mall, then yes, you shut down the entire mall until he is apprehended.

I'd prefer you just find that person and take them into protective custody rather then detaining a few thousand other people for an indeterminate amount of time.

[Easy Mac]

Locking down 4 square miles is easier said than done.