Are the Sonics moving?

[miami_fan]

Interesting series on the business of each of the major sports. I linked the basketball part.

http://www.forbes.com/2007/12/06/bus...6nbaintro.html

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Interesting series on the business of each of the major sports. I linked the basketball part.

http://www.forbes.com/2007/12/06/bus...6nbaintro.html

I'm almost 100% certain that what is tallied as "gate revenue" in that article includes not just ticket prices but any other arena-related revenue including all concessions and negotiated parking revenue.

IOW, money built off the back of what are (mostly) publicly-financed palaces.

[duckman]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Jiminy Crickets, man. I didn't direct anything at you, and didn't say anything whatsoever about the people of OKC. I just think the Sonics ownership is slimey, and I don't think OKC deserves the team over other markets like Vegas, and that makes me mad. I'm not even a Sonics fan.

I didn't even know you had a personal issue with me. In fact, I don't think I've ever even spoke to you. Oh well, I think I can live you telling me to fuck myself. Have a nice day.

Whatever, dude, that's a complete cop out. You knew exactly what you meant by the "OKC doesn't deserve a team" bullshit. OKC deserves it because we proven that we can support a franchise here. This is not some damn cow-town like the Seattle media likes to present to the people there. Hell, the NBA All-Star Game in Vegas was a disaster, so they deserve a team over OKC? Get real!

The real slimy people in this whole thing was the Seattle and Washington politician who roadblocked any attempt to get funding for a new arena. They were proven in court to be a part of a plan to bleed Bennett dry to force a sale of a team. That's why they settled and that's why there is not a team in Seattle anymore. There's blood on their hands as well.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by duckman

The real slimy people in this whole thing was the Seattle and Washington politician who roadblocked any attempt to get funding for a new arena. They were proven in court to be a part of a plan to bleed Bennett dry to force a sale of a team. That's why they settled and that's why there is not a team in Seattle anymore. There's blood on their hands as well.

What the fuck are you talking about?

Try getting your facts straight before you comment.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by headtrauma

Maybe I don't fully understand the NBA economic model, but why would the league want a team in only the 45th largest TV market, about the same size as (ahem) Memphis and Albuquerque?

http://www.mediainfocenter.org/compare/top50/#tv

I don't have a dog in this fight, but allowing a team to move to Oklahoma City seems questionable from a business perspective.

It's a national tv product, unlike baseball where it's regional. TV markets and such aren't as important because the whole contract is negotiated in a manner that doesn't really care about where the teams are. Same thing for the NFL and it's ability to thrive without a team in Los Angeles.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Originally Posted by duckman

The real slimy people in this whole thing was the Seattle and Washington politician who roadblocked any attempt to get funding for a new arena. They were proven in court to be a part of a plan to bleed Bennett dry to force a sale of a team. That's why they settled and that's why there is not a team in Seattle anymore. There's blood on their hands as well.

I second the condemnation of this statement. What a bunch of B.S. I am almost moved to not hold off on telling you to go f . . . y . . . . . .f. Yeah, like the local politicians were so much to blame that Bennett and co. wrote big checks. Ask yourself why if they were in the right, why did they pay anything at all?

There's actually no blood on the hands of anyone in Seattle. Most couldn't care less whether the Sonics left or not. It's a non-event to most. I fully supported the stance of the city, and would rather see them go than have caved in.

[Arctic Blast]

Originally Posted by duckman

Whatever, dude, that's a complete cop out. You knew exactly what you meant by the "OKC doesn't deserve a team" bullshit. OKC deserves it because we proven that we can support a franchise here. This is not some damn cow-town like the Seattle media likes to present to the people there. Hell, the NBA All-Star Game in Vegas was a disaster, so they deserve a team over OKC? Get real!

The real slimy people in this whole thing was the Seattle and Washington politician who roadblocked any attempt to get funding for a new arena. They were proven in court to be a part of a plan to bleed Bennett dry to force a sale of a team. That's why they settled and that's why there is not a team in Seattle anymore. There's blood on their hands as well.

Wow, yeah, because what we need MORE of is public money not being spent on more cops, or better roads, or better schools...nope, we need it getting spent on a new fucking arena, because rich owners can't POSSIBLY be expected to pay for it themselves. If Oklahoma City's voters are stupid enough to spend their tax money on building an arena for a billionaire, enjoy the team.

[sooner333]

Originally Posted by Arctic Blast

Wow, yeah, because what we need MORE of is public money not being spent on more cops, or better roads, or better schools...nope, we need it getting spent on a new fucking arena, because rich owners can't POSSIBLY be expected to pay for it themselves. If Oklahoma City's voters are stupid enough to spend their tax money on building an arena for a billionaire, enjoy the team.

Seattle was stupid enough to do it not once, but twice in the past ten or so years. I'm not saying it's the smart thing to do, especially for a third time, but it's not like Seattle is a holier-than-thou city for not paying for an arena.

I don't know if anything was "proven" in court because the fact-finding judge did not get a chance to make a ruling. However, there was evidence that some people on the Seattle side were making their actions in an attempt to force Clay Bennett to sell the team. Maybe a good strategy, maybe also a little "slimey," but it didn't work.

I think Oklahoma City is a city that deserves an NBA basketball team. It's the kind of city that probably would have never had the opportunity a few years ago, and if Bennett got his Seattle arena or the team had to stay, probably never would again. Only time will tell whether it was a "good move" or not, but I'm willing to believe it will. Oklahomans have a lot of pride in their state and people really want this to work. Sometimes I think people end up having this "us vs. them" mentality because people do like to downgrade the state, have negative stereotypes, or think they are much better than us. I think that attitude will also help fill the seats so that we can give a collective "I-told-you-so" to the rest of the country who thinks that Oklahoma City can't and won't support an NBA team.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by path12

I can't believe I've got tears in my eyes about a team I knew was gone three years ago.

Fuck you, Clay Bennett. Fuck you, David Stern. Fuck you, Howard Schultz. And fuck you, city of Seattle. You sold out.

I understand exactly how you feel, and sorry for what you're going through as a fan.

In similar homage, let me say what I didn't say at her passing out of respect for those who might have cared for her, and what I never got around to saying after until now: good riddance, Georgia Frontiere.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

This is probably not the best time/place to get into this discussion, but how much does it matter where the team plays? Chesapeake, you live in the DC area, right? So why does it matter to you whether the team plays in Seattle or Oklahoma City?

As a fan of a team that left the area, it makes a difference. Being able to go the games and see the team play, to go and meet the players and get autographs, to be easily able to find and buy team-related stuff like jerseys, to see them on TV all the time and read about them in the paper, to have a vibe with an entire region of fans who feel similarly to you. Everything that goes along with rooting for a team is tied to the area they play in. It's hard to root for a team after it leaves. Not only do you have to get over feelings of betrayal, but the distance becomes a factor in how well you are able to follow it. I know, I have tried. I wanted to get back into following the Rams and gave it a game shot. But I just couldn't get past not being able to see them on TV or hear them on radio regularly, or particpate in other team-related activities. It was hard to follow them, so I stopped.

If Sonics fans can do it, kudos to them. But it was very hard for me. Even transplants who are a similar distance from their teams at least know their teams are where they were, that there is a whole region of fans just like them rooitng for that team, and that there is no betrayal related to it. So they can keep rooting for their teams a little easier, I think.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

The NBA financial model is broken. Case in point - Miami first started off in, what, 1988 with a new arena? And then got another new arena in 1999. In the '05/'06 season they won the NBA title, yet still lost money. That's ridiculous - a team with a very recent arena, as successful as you can get and with multiple star power attractions in Shaq and Wade, and yet they lost money.

I believe multiple franchises such as Memphis, New Orleans, Sacramento, Milwaukee and Atlanta (and probably others) are regular money losers and have been mentioned as teams that may potentially be sold and/or move.

I'm certainly not in favor of stealing another city's team, not after having it done to mine - I'm just saying I don't think the NBA is in any position financially to expand right now.

Originally Posted by dawgfan

I'm almost 100% certain that what is tallied as "gate revenue" in that article includes not just ticket prices but any other arena-related revenue including all concessions and negotiated parking revenue.

IOW, money built off the back of what are (mostly) publicly-financed palaces.

But that doesn't really coincide with your previous broader statement.

If I'm reading you correctly, your first statement was along the lines of "a significant amount of NBA teams are money losers" while your second statement is about the formulation of total revenue. Why should it matter where the revenue comes from? In fact, you could argue that teams which derive a majority of its income from publicly-financed places and surrounding businesses are more likely to be stable due to consistent revenue.

Forbes seems to indicate that most NBA franchises are doing well. Although team franchise values are not as high as the NFL, most debt levels seem to be lower. Further, 20 out of 30 teams turned in a positive net reported income over the past year. Most teams that were in the red were so in the single digits. The teams that suffered double digit operating income losses also came from a smaller area business location (Portland, Memphis).

The anamoly is the New York Knicks. However, I will not weep for them due to their huge intangible assets in brand value.

So, where you claim that a significant number of NBA teams are in financial trouble, I just do not see it.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

So, where you claim that a significant number of NBA teams are in financial trouble, I just do not see it.

Franchise values go up, yes. And that is similar to the other major sports - franchises are limited in quantity and valued for more than just their inherent economic production. So a team can be a money-loser year-to-year, but still increase in value over time. I don't think a major-sport owner has ever lost money on their investment because of this continuous inflation of franchise sale prices.

That said, I think it's clear that a significant part of what is continuing to keep franchise valuation from stagnating or even falling is the trend in the last 20 years for ever more favorable stadium/arena arrangements, with public money being spent in large quantities (and more frequently with shorter stadium/arena lifespans) with little to no tangible economic return in the form of rent payments. This is a change from the past.

This trend is much more significant in the NBA and MLB than in the NFL, simply because the shared TV revenue in the NFL is so big it makes it nearly impossible for an NFL franchise to operate in the red. Not so in MLB and especially the NBA.

The NBA's current financial model is dependent on team owners getting extremely favorable arena deals that basically grant all revenue generated in those buildings to the team and requiring the team to pay no more than a token amount of rent for the privilege. Considering that this cycle of newer, bigger and better arenas in the NBA has gotten to the point that arenas only 10-15 years old are now deemed "inadequate" by the league shows how out of control the situation has gotten.

Given the state of the economy, I wonder how effective the NBA's model of threatening to leave cities unless they get $200M+ in public subsidies will continue to be? Of all the major sports, the NBA is by far the prime candidate to be the next NHL and suffer a complete meltdown & rebirth. I'm not saying it will definitely happen, but there are reasons to think they're heading down a similar path, especially if more cities start refusing to pay 75%+ of $300-500M arena construction.

[Young Drachma]

Seattle does still have NBA connected basketball. The WNBA's Seattle Storm were sold to a local group and aren't moving.

[chesapeake]

Originally Posted by molson

I think what he meant was, is there any chance that you could remain a fan of the Sonics? In a practical sense, if you don't live in the area, there's not much difference where they are.

It seems like most fans that have to go through this abandon the moving team, which I understand, but there has to be some exceptions.

Not even a tiny chance. When you leave the area where you grew up but keep the teams, you do so because they are part of home. Seattle is home. Oklahoma City is someplace you fly over to get to where you really want to go.

I don't imagine many folks in Seattle will retain any sort of affiliation with this franchise. As part of the plan to get out of Seattle, Clay Bennett had the management divest the team of any player that had even a shred of connection with the local fan base. The team that takes the floor in OKC later this year will be virtually unrecognizable to the former-Sonics fans.

[duckman]

Originally Posted by chesapeake

Oklahoma City is someplace you fly over to get to where you really want to go.

This is one of the reason why I have been so testy when I respond to this thread. The Oklahoma City area is a very nice place to live. Because of the MAPS project and MAPs for Kids, we have transformed the image of the city. They transformed Bricktown into one of the nicest places to enjoy a show, dinner, nightlife, baseball, etc. We have an amusement park, water park, the 2nd largest zoo in the US, a racetrack, and casinos within driving distance (and one that will be in OKC in the near future).

We have the lowest unemployment rate in the country, one of the few economies that is still growing at a high rate, and one of the fastest growing metropolitian areas in the nation. Mustang, Edmond, and Moore are some of the nicest suburbs you can possibly live in with top notch school systems and within driving distance of all the things I mentioned earlier.

Before you go running down a city you either haven't ever been to or haven't visit in the last 10 years, come down for a few days and check it out. I think you would be very surprised by the changes.

[chesapeake]

Originally Posted by sooner333

I don't know if anything was "proven" in court because the fact-finding judge did not get a chance to make a ruling. However, there was evidence that some people on the Seattle side were making their actions in an attempt to force Clay Bennett to sell the team. Maybe a good strategy, maybe also a little "slimey," but it didn't work.

The evidence of timing of Senator Gorton's duplicity does not back an allegation that the City of Seattle was not forthright in its efforts to secure funding for arena modifications. In fact, the paper trail that came out in the trial indicated that Bennett's group, assuming that they were ever serious about an arena (which I think their effort before the WA Legislature, the Clay Bennett e-mail trail and McClendon's comments prove they were not), had already given up on making a deal on the arena, when the October 2007 meeting where Gorton violated the NDA by communicating with the Ballmer group took place.

The issue that came up in the trial centered around a meeting Gorton had with NBA officials last October when he was representing the City. He had signed a non-disclosure agreement not to share any of the information with a 3rd party, but then turned around and provided info to the ownership group that was led by Steve Ballmer.

At that point in time, Sonics co-owner Aubrey McClendon had already been fined $250,000 for his widely publicized comments that the ownership group always intended to move the team to OKC. In addition to McClendon's comments, a number of Bennett's own emails had been introduced in the trial which showed that he was seeking to move the team before the 07-08 season, well in advance of what he had agreed to when he bought the team.

Gorton's actions, although wrong, were in response to the fact that Bennett and his group had been acting dishonestly with the City and State the entire time.

The NDA and Bennett's emails are all on the Seattle Times and Seattle PIs websites for anyone that wants independent verification.

[chesapeake]

Originally Posted by duckman

Before you go running down a city you either haven't ever been to or haven't visit in the last 10 years, come down for a few days and check it out. I think you would be very surprised by the changes.

I am sure it is delightful. But I don't want a rational discussion on the merits of your city. I want to be angry. Since you SOBs are stealing my team, you win. So prepare for plenty more cheap shots, cattle jokes and obscene innuendo.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by chesapeake

Not even a tiny chance. When you leave the area where you grew up but keep the teams, you do so because they are part of home. Seattle is home. Oklahoma City is someplace you fly over to get to where you really want to go.

I don't imagine many folks in Seattle will retain any sort of affiliation with this franchise. As part of the plan to get out of Seattle, Clay Bennett had the management divest the team of any player that had even a shred of connection with the local fan base. The team that takes the floor in OKC later this year will be virtually unrecognizable to the former-Sonics fans.

You should be glad the city of Seattle didn't react this way when YOU left it!

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by chesapeake

I am sure it is delightful. But I don't want a rational discussion on the merits of your city. I want to be angry. Since you SOBs are stealing my team, you win. So prepare for plenty more cheap shots, cattle jokes and obscene innuendo.

You should have used the point that there are too many God malls in Oklahoma. I'm sure you'd get agreement if you argued that. When you have to note that you parked in the G4 section of the parking lot and then ride a tram to the entrance of the church, you know you're in for a 45 minute sermon asking for repentance and a $100 donation for your trouble.

[duckman]

Originally Posted by chesapeake

I am sure it is delightful. But I don't want a rational discussion on the merits of your city. I want to be angry. Since you SOBs are stealing my team, you win. So prepare for plenty more cheap shots, cattle jokes and obscene innuendo.

You show me where I personally stole your team. I am not a part of the PBC. Hell, I didn't even vote for the improvements to the Ford Center. My hands are clean.

Also, stealing implies taking something without compensation. Bennett bought the team for $350 million from Mr. Starbucks and Bennett gave the city of Seattle another $75 million to break the lease. Plus, Bennett gave up the team's history if Seattle finds another team in the next five season. Doesn't sound like stealing to me. Sounds like compensation to me.

[dawgfan]

The team was stolen from the fans. Schultz was compensated & the city was compensated, but not the fans. The fans are always the losers in these situations.

[chesapeake]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

You should be glad the city of Seattle didn't react this way when YOU left it!

Sometimes, I think they did.

[chesapeake]

Originally Posted by duckman

You show me where I personally stole your team. I am not a part of the PBC. Hell, I didn't even vote for the improvements to the Ford Center. My hands are clean.

Ah, but you jumped in front of a freight train of fury traveling downhill out of the Rockies toward America's Heartland.

Fortunately for you, I vented most of my righteous anger into the Jesse Helms thread this morning. All I have left for this thread is an encouragement to all citizens of the greater Oklahoma City Metropolitan Area to wipe the cow manure off of their boots before entering the arena to enjoy their new basketball team.