OOTP Baseball 2006 Reports

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by GoSeahawks

I can't imagine that OOTP will be any better while running a full minor league system.

If that's true, then I probably won't end up buying either game. I may even give the new Mogul a try (since I'm one of the few who enjoyed last year's version despite its limitations). The slow speed has always been what keeps me from getting into FM, so it may keep me out of OOTP as well (especially given that I've never really liked past editions of OOTP that much). I hope to be proven wrong because baseball is my favorite sport. But it seems like right now that is the major sport with the weakest sims available, IMO.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by John Galt

If that's true, then I probably won't end up buying either game. I may even give the new Mogul a try (since I'm one of the few who enjoyed last year's version despite its limitations). The slow speed has always been what keeps me from getting into FM, so it may keep me out of OOTP as well (especially given that I've never really liked past editions of OOTP that much). I hope to be proven wrong because baseball is my favorite sport. But it seems like right now that is the major sport with the weakest sims available, IMO.

For speed out of PS and BM, BM is far and away faster. We will have to see where OOTP2006 ends up. BM takes about 5-10 minutes to sim a seaon.

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by dervack

Agreed. Along with the fact that H2H was never delivered, though promised for ver. 6, OOTP has moved from automatic purchase, to try the demo and wait a while before purchase, meanwhile, Puresim has moved from nice, but not interested, to buying next week when I get paid, or maybe this weekend if my experiment works.

All I can offer on this is judge the game based on the demo.

I know about the H2H stuff but that surely can't be the reason you've changed your mind so drastically on with OOTP?

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

True. I've got to admit though, it's hard not to start looking at this thing as OOTP6: SI Edition rather than OOTP 2006. It frightens me that there are issues with relievers in the 7th iteration of the game.

I'm not aware of this being a long standing issue (1st game with the guys) but OOTP in terms of code and framework it's all new. I appreciate that wont wash with you as justification, especially as you are seeing an issue carried over just thought i would say it.

[Marc Duffy]

What this thread does highlight is that everyone has their own vision of the perfect Baseball sim, which is why variety is good for all of you.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by dervack

to buying next week when I get paid, or maybe this weekend if my experiment works

Alchemy?

[dervack]

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

All I can offer on this is judge the game based on the demo.

I know about the H2H stuff but that surely can't be the reason you've changed your mind so drastically on with OOTP?

Actually, it's precisely the reason why I switched my stance on OOTP. We've exchanged PMs over on the big boards about it.

[dervack]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Alchemy?

It didn't work. At least what I wanted to do. I'll try again later, but still will buy the game if I can't do what I want to do.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

What this thread does highlight is that everyone has their own vision of the perfect Baseball sim, which is why variety is good for all of you.

It depends on what you are talking about Marc.

If we are talking about speed vs. managment vs. H2H, yeah, there are different tastes for everyone.

If we are talking about solid AI and statistical tracking, we all want that in every game we play.

I love the speed of Mogul, but the AI and financials just aren't up to par.

I love Pure Sim (and with fast sim on, I can sim a season in around 20-25 minutes on my machine), but would love to be able to simulate 100 seasons more quickly and would love a deeper statistical model. (thankfully, Shaun is adding that stuff quickly)

The key for me with any game, baseball or not, is to do the things you set out to do and do them well. If you are going to advertaise great AI, I don't want to see pitchers playing SS or guys getting signed to a 67 million dollar contract and released the next month. (I realize this is a beta and Markus is attempting to get all of these issues fixed)

And I think that's whats always bothered me about OOTP the most over the years. It attempts to do so much that certain things fall through the cracks. I'd just as soon see no waivers than to see them handled horribly. I'd be more than happy to have a slower sim speed if it means the resulting stats and AI moves look right. (as Pure Sim has done)

I'm giving OOTP the benefit of the doubt because of SI and because of SI only. I sure hope it does what it promises to do this year. It has all the potential in the world.

[Marc Duffy]

Yep, in a way you are right TroyF. Whilst we dont say "great AI" we do offer "A realistic and accurate simulation engine" (you could argue this is a play on words so apologies!)

What someone else thinks is great wont necessarily be up to your standards (which is where I was coming from with my perfect baseball sim quote.)

If you look at Football Manager, there are many that love the game and think it is the best thing ever. There are also people that think the AI sucks and that it needs some major work

It's down to the individual and their perception of the game. Providing people base their opinions on playing rather than reading forums I am sure it'll be fine (and if there are issues we'll work darn hard to fix them!)

[sovereignstar]

Fear not, the starters-relievers problem has been deemed worthy enough to be fixed in a patch. According to Markus, "That's the way OOTP has worked for ages..."

[dervack]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

Fear not, the starters-relievers problem has been deemed worthy enough to be fixed in a patch. According to Markus, "That's the way OOTP has worked for ages..."

Awesome. And I expect that to continue to be the way it works in OOTP for ages too. It's silly things like that that make me glad I didn't waste my money pre-ordering. That and the fact that he kept the arbitration method to what it was previously because he didn't want to make it too micro-managing.

[jbmagic]

A lot of these AI concerns from the reports for ootp 2006 are the same thing we saw in previous version of ootp.

I am just kinda surprise with a new engine for ootp 2006 that we are still seeing the same kind of AI bugs and behavior based on the html reports.

[dervack]

Originally Posted by jbmagic

A lot of these AI concerns from the reports for ootp 2006 are the same thing we saw in previous version of ootp.

I am just kinda surprise with a new engine for ootp 2006 that we are still seeing the same kind of AI bugs and behavior based on the html reports.

I'm not. If they hadn't been fixed before, I would seriously hope that people didn't think they would all of a sudden be fixed now. MR getting SP type deals, then being released will prolly continue to happen for "ages."

[TroyF]

quoted from the ootp board:


Quote:
Originally Posted by markprior22
I am very disappointed that the starter vs reliever issue falls under the "patch" category. This is an integral part of the game and it sounds like, on release, we are going to have pitchers that can only go 3 innings or so starting games.

Markus:
That's the way OOTP has worked for ages... however, the AI has been improved in the meantime.

I've reread this quote five times and it just baffles me. It's the way OOTP has worked for ages and it's being planned for a patch? Are you freakin kidding me?

If it's the way the game has worked for ages (and it is the way it has worked), why in the hell wasn't this dealt with before now? This isn't some minor issue that means nothing. We are talking about the game having some starting pitchers that never go beyond 3 innings a start and bullpen ERA's that don't correspond to any era in baseball history. This should have been one of the top five problems dealt with before they added any new single feature in this game.

Insanity.

[Buccaneer]

That's funny because in the 100+ seasons I have played, I have never seen a starting pitcher that can only go 3 innings. Playing in the Golden Age era, nearly all starting pitchers average 7.2 innings or so. Even in those careers where I extend in the 80s and 90s with the Modern Era, I have never seen this there too. So what the hell is this issue you are seeing?

[Qrusher14242]

I read that for some reason SP are being classified as MR's. So theres tons of MRs and you get pitchers only going 3 innings. A poster pointed out how many MR's were selected to the all-star team and it looks like a bad bug:

http://reports.ootpbaseball2006.com/..._100_news.html

"SP C. Torres (GRA)
SP H. McCarthy (CLE)
CL S. Sugiyama (CLE)
CL J. Hilburn (PHO)
MR M. Timblick (FOR)
MR A. Bernea (GRA)
MR F. Ysla (GRA)
SP A. Mahler (JAC)
MR R. Montalvo (CLE)
CL K. Wilsdon (NAS)
MR P. Markle (FOR)
MR D. Lansing (JAC)
RF B. Girouard (ALB)
3B C. Gomez (CLE)
2B E. Holmes (JAC)
C A. Ranagan (ALB)
1B A. Endora (JAC)
CF E. Hockenhall (CLE)
SS D. Wright (CLE)
LF H. Branum (GRA)
C A. Silverstro (MES)
DH A. Aubin (NAS)
RF B. Kemper (PHO)
2B T. Sanborn (GRA)
CF A. Mercier (MES)
LF F. Osborn (FOR)
SS F. Dumenigo (NAS)
1B G. Dwight (MES)
Sub League 2 All-Star Game Selections announced:
SP K. Kanada (ATL)
CL L. Durun (ATL)
CL R. Norniella (MOD)
MR B. Agarn (WIC)
MR C. Chabala (MIN)
MR A. Holmes (FOR)
MR R. Abeyta (ANA)
MR C. Morency (FOR)
MR B. Thompson (MIN)
MR B. Baker (MIN)
MR K. Li (MIN)
MR G. Cavilla (WIC)
1B D. Aragao (MIN)
3B A. Bargone (FOR)
LF M. Smith (AUG)
SS B. MacKie (MIN)
C C. Cook (MOD)
RF B. Llesemia (FOR)
2B S. Masterson (WIC)
CF G. Becera (ATL)
C J. Canham (ATL)
DH J. O'Ronan (MOD)
LF K. Conlon (MIN)
1B A. Lopezs (FOR)
LF M. Hindjos (FOR)
LF M. Fukuoka (MOD)
1B J. Tucker (ATL)

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

That's funny because in the 100+ seasons I have played, I have never seen a starting pitcher that can only go 3 innings. Playing in the Golden Age era, nearly all starting pitchers average 7.2 innings or so. Even in those careers where I extend in the 80s and 90s with the Modern Era, I have never seen this there too. So what the hell is this issue you are seeing?

In my experience the bullpen handling of the AI and the fact to many MR have always been created have been one of the consistent problems with the game.

[Marc Duffy]

Thanks for the heads up guys on this. I'll look into it.

[Young Drachma]

The game certainly does create way too many middle relievers. Even as late as OOTP 6.5 and one of the things about OOTP that's frustrated me a ton. I generally just tweak and alter them into starters or closers depending..but...yeah.

[stevew]

so this comes out this week, right?

[Icy]

Originally Posted by stevew

so this comes out this week, right?

Yes, on May 31st.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by TroyF

In my experience the bullpen handling of the AI and the fact to many MR have always been created have been one of the consistent problems with the game.

BIG Issue #2 behind the waivers issue. MR's are plentiful and many have endurance's of starting pitchers. Yep, glad I didn't pre-order either. Sounds like the same game with an SI skin overlayed.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

BIG Issue #2 behind the waivers issue. MR's are plentiful and many have endurance's of starting pitchers. Yep, glad I didn't pre-order either. Sounds like the same game with an SI skin overlayed.

The SI name made me rethink and preorder. I'll now have to grit my teeth and hope.

The good thing is PureSim is solid. If OOTP does bomb, I have a baseball sim to go back to. Couldn't say that in some past years.

[Buccaneer]

Using Lahman, the game does import too many good MR, I just thought that was a by-product of the database. But fortunately, MR do not get that many innings in the Golden Era so their effects are minimized in my leagues. Every once in a while though, I have to change a couple of MR to SP in the draft stage - but only the pitchers that are obvious starters. I thought it was a typo somewhere in lahman.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Using Lahman, the game does import too many good MR, I just thought that was a by-product of the database. But fortunately, MR do not get that many innings in the Golden Era so their effects are minimized in my leagues. Every once in a while though, I have to change a couple of MR to SP in the draft stage - but only the pitchers that are obvious starters. I thought it was a typo somewhere in lahman.

Nope, using fictional rosters, this has always been an issue.

I understand programming and I understand some fixes seem simple when they aren't. But this has always seemed so bizzare to me. Code it into the game that there are more SP created than middle relief. If it's a toss up between an MR and Starter, give the SP tag to a starter.

Then you don't have AI managers yanking 5th starters in the third or fourth inning and ruining the realism of the game.

The frustrating thing to me is the flippant "it's always been an issue, but I'll get right on it for the first patch" comment.

If you know it's always been an issue, why in the hell don't you fix it? Amazing.

[Buccaneer]

Troy, I understand. I had never played a solo fictional league because historical leagues works well for me (as do v.511). I don't mess with stuff like waivers and just concentrate on being a fast-simmer GM (where the emphasis is on roster and financial management). I wouldn't want to play this game any other way and do feel for those that are game-by-game simmers or coaching a game - not only in how the AI manages the game itself but in having to look closer at the transactions.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Troy, I understand. I had never played a solo fictional league because historical leagues works well for me (as do v.511). I don't mess with stuff like waivers and just concentrate on being a fast-simmer GM (where the emphasis is on roster and financial management). I wouldn't want to play this game any other way and do feel for those that are game-by-game simmers or coaching a game - not only in how the AI manages the game itself but in having to look closer at the transactions.

I don't play game by game either. I'm a fast simmer (who will occasionally watch a game if I want to see a great starter or someone going for a record) I usually go one month at a time and tweak the roster as I see fit until Sep/Oct, when I go one week at a time and may insert some youngsters in the lineup for a week and give vets rest before the playoffs (or the free agent wire)

I like playing with fictional players.

The problem for me is looking at the stats during a season and seeing a bunch of guys with numbers like: 32 games, 22 starts, 74 innings pitched. It just drives me nuts. And I can't believe this wasn't one of the first things addressed with the move to a new engine.

I just have to stay calm here. All I have are reports and Markus said the AI was tweaked. Fine, I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt. But I'm getting the sinking feeling this thing isn't going to be even close to playable for a solo player on release.

I hope I'm wrong.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

Sounds like the same game with an SI skin overlayed.

You say that as though you're surprised. I'm honestly amazed that anyone expected anything other than that. The problem(s) with OOTP are the same as they've been for years, a lack of adequate understanding of things that baseball fans (and presumably baseball gamers) understand instinctively.

[Buccaneer]

32 games, 22 starts, 74 innings pitched

That's amazing. I have never ever seen anything close to that in all my seasons. Wonder what's the difference?

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

You say that as though you're surprised. I'm honestly amazed that anyone expected anything other than that. The problem(s) with OOTP are the same as they've been for years, a lack of adequate understanding of things that baseball fans (and presumably baseball gamers) understand instinctively.

Acutally I am surprised. I thought the purpose of rewriting the game, plus skipping a year was solely to fix these issues? If they are still present, what's the point? To add insult to injury... they mention it's going to be looked at in a patch? Are you kidding me?? No thanks.

It will be fun to read the boards next week when it's released though.

[TroyF]

They've uploaded some new reports.

I'm still seeing pitchers play the field, but I have to say the rest look improved.

I didn't go through every prospect, but doing a quick rundown through the league leaders and looking at their transactions, I didn't see anything strange with the waiver wire. All of the transactions made some sort of sense.

Saw a couple of trades of high salary vets for youngsters. Glancing through the minors I saw a couple of draft busts.

I still think 4th and 5th starters are pitching to few innings, but it looks as though most of em are at least over 5 now, which I could live with.

A few days left. . .

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

If they are still present, what's the point?

To sell product silly.

And it'll sell, regardless of how many long standing flaws remain. All you have to do is look at this board to see that. As long as text sim consumers continue to act like suckers, this is what we're going to get.

[astrosfan64]

Give the game a chance...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by astrosfan64

Give the game a chance...

I believe that's at least part of the point -- how many chances does it get?
How many iterations have come & gone with the same issues?

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

To sell product silly.

And it'll sell, regardless of how many long standing flaws remain. All you have to do is look at this board to see that. As long as text sim consumers continue to act like suckers, this is what we're going to get.

I'll admit I'm a sucker sometimes. In this case, this is loyalty to a company.

I've never purchased an SI game that I didn't spend hours and hours on. Both the soccer and hockey games have been terrific. I'm taking a flyer on this one. It may bite me in the ass, but I'm someone who is loyal to companies who have consistently have hit the mark.

Despite my pessimism, I'm going to give this a fair chance. Now, if this game doesn't meet the mark? Then I'll have to reevaluate how I purchase hings from SI in the future.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by TroyF

I'll admit I'm a sucker sometimes. In this case, this is loyalty to a company.

Just FTR, I wasn't referring to you specifically nor even specifically to OOTP. That was a general observation about games/gamers in general.

Basically as a group we're so desparate that we'll accept a lot of things that we shouldn't (if we ever want better product).

[GoSeahawks]

Originally Posted by TroyF

They've uploaded some new reports.

Yesterday? Or are there new ones on a different page?

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

That's amazing. I have never ever seen anything close to that in all my seasons. Wonder what's the difference?

Me either and I do the same thing TroyF does...

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Just FTR, I wasn't referring to you specifically nor even specifically to OOTP. That was a general observation about games/gamers in general.

Basically as a group we're so desparate that we'll accept a lot of things that we shouldn't (if we ever want better product).

I agree with you. In this case, I had reservations when I did it. The loyalty factor was the only thing that pushed me to do it. We'll see.

I think OOTP suffers from something else as well. Not only do you have the gamers who are desperate for everything, but in this case you have a game with so much potential. It looks so darned good and it always just misses.

I'm hoping SI changes that. I still have major concerns, but the last set of reports has me slightly more encouraged.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by GoSeahawks

Yesterday? Or are there new ones on a different page?

http://reports.ootpbaseball2006.com/sion/

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

As long as text sim consumers continue to act like suckers, this is what we're going to get.

You may seem like we're buying a lemon, but another way to look at it is that we're buying inarguably one of the two best baseball sims in existence.


...but regardless...aren't these arguments so old... i feel like we're playing out some 'pre text sim game release ritual' with the same tired old attack/defend posts.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

To sell product silly.

And it'll sell, regardless of how many long standing flaws remain. All you have to do is look at this board to see that. As long as text sim consumers continue to act like suckers, this is what we're going to get.

To clarify my position - yes I want SI to sell games (shock horror, company wants to make profit and stay in business ) .... but the main reason I'm working in games and specifically text sims is because I love playing them myself.

As such our expansion into American sports is partially for business reasons but mainly because myself and the other chaps making these games want them to exist and eventually become as indepth and fun as Football Manager to play.

Simply put, currently speaking no one is getting rich from our American sports products however we have some very talented people working upon them and we obviously hope that in the long term they'll 'break' though.

Are they perfect - no unfortunately not, I'd be happy to apologise for that if anyone wants me to ... we will always strive to make them as realistic and fun as possible, but we are only human at the end of the day and unfortunately we are constricted by our own inadequacies and the limitations of the hardware people run the games on.

As always we will support our products to the best of our abilities and we are confident that vast majority of people playing them will enjoy them. Obviously the more feedback we recieve from people the easier it will be to evolve and improve each series going forward.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by TroyF

http://reports.ootpbaseball2006.com/sion/

Boy, Fremont must be a real baseball hotbed, since it's able to support both a AAA & a AA team at the same time.

And it looks like Pittsburgh finally reached it's level ... AA.
(Although I'd bet St. Louis isn't happy being relegated to Class A)

Yes, I know/believe these are assigned randomly, but it's still funny to see some of the things that happens. Seems to me that it'd make sense to code something that avoid duplicating cities quite so obviously. Or is there a real-life city that is host to both a AAA & a AA that I'm not thinking of at the moment?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by TroyF

http://reports.ootpbaseball2006.com/sion/

Be sure not to miss the organizational maneuvers of the Tulsa Professionals.
That's some serious traveling for some of those guys, but I guess they can handle it, considering those 30+ year old guys in rookie league have probably seen just about everything imaginable.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Be sure not to miss the organizational maneuvers of the Tulsa Professionals.
That's some serious traveling for some of those guys, but I guess they can handle it, considering those 30+ year old guys in rookie league have probably seen just about everything imaginable.

I'd be more worried there are 70+ players on the Bakersfield Medusa's (R) team then anything else...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

... and eventually become as indepth and fun as Football Manager to play.

And that's exactly what a lot of us would like to see ... but have just about given up on living long enough to get.

I grew up with a glove on one hand & a ball in the other.
(crap, that makes me sound like Michael Jackson).

When I wasn't outside playing baseball, I was inside immersed in a world that Topps made possible & I made "real", well real to me anyway. There wasn't a dramatic baseball moment I couldn't experience thanks to some imagination and a good 2d6 roll.

Now, time & space are both a lot shorter for me than they were back then. And I don't get up from the floor nearly so easily as I used to (I can still get down there fine, getting up is a lot more challenging), so I'd love to be able to experience baseball at my p.c. instead (and do it without taking out another mortgage, ala Diamond Mind or some of the other products already in the marketplace).

BUT a crop of 32 year olds playing in the rookie league ain't gonna cut it. I know better. Baseball fans know better. Hell Marc, my 8 year old knows better.

... unfortunately we are constricted by our own inadequacies

But do they have to be? Or, more accurately, do those inadequacies have to persist instead of being resolved?

From less than 10 minutes spent looking over just the information available in the HTML reports, it's clear that the same problem OOTP has always had remains to this day -- a lack of adequate understanding of "how baseball works".

I believe there's a lot of reasons CM/FM became the seminal sports text sim.
Among those reasons, I believe, is that the team behind it understood football. If you and/or some of the SI team don't recognize something of yourselves in my description of my childhood relationship with baseball then I'm amazed. I'd bet some of you lived it, drank it, ate it, breathed it and along the way you learned & forgot more things that you take for granted than most Americans will know about soccer in a lifetime. It's part of your culture, it's part of your daily life, it's part of you.

If you want to make OOTP, or any other baseball game, the diamond equivalent of CM/FM, you're going to need enough people involved in the project on a daily basis that have the same relationship. That understand when something is wrong, that knows when something feels right, that knows & understands baseball better than they know their multiplication tables. Otherwise, this merry-go-round is going to just going to keep on spinning, with nobody on either side of the equation truly getting what they want.

[rexallllsc]

SI rules...OOTP has some work to do (I couldn't get into OOTP 6 for the life of me...not even sure if I played 5 that much), and I hope Markus can get things straight for the SI version of this game.

This looks really good:
http://reports.ootpbaseball2006.com/sion/

Is that something generated by the game?

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And that's exactly what a lot of us would like to see ... but have just about given up on living long enough to get.

I grew up with a glove on one hand & a ball in the other.
(crap, that makes me sound like Michael Jackson).

When I wasn't outside playing baseball, I was inside immersed in a world that Topps made possible & I made "real", well real to me anyway. There wasn't a dramatic baseball moment I couldn't experience thanks to some imagination and a good 2d6 roll.

Now, time & space are both a lot shorter for me than they were back then. And I don't get up from the floor nearly so easily as I used to (I can still get down there fine, getting up is a lot more challenging), so I'd love to be able to experience baseball at my p.c. instead (and do it without taking out another mortgage, ala Diamond Mind or some of the other products already in the marketplace).

BUT a crop of 32 year olds playing in the rookie league ain't gonna cut it. I know better. Baseball fans know better. Hell Marc, my 8 year old knows better.



But do they have to be? Or, more accurately, do those inadequacies have to persist instead of being resolved?

From less than 10 minutes spent looking over just the information available in the HTML reports, it's clear that the same problem OOTP has always had remains to this day -- a lack of adequate understanding of "how baseball works".

I believe there's a lot of reasons CM/FM became the seminal sports text sim.
Among those reasons, I believe, is that the team behind it understood football. If you and/or some of the SI team don't recognize something of yourselves in my description of my childhood relationship with baseball then I'm amazed. I'd bet some of you lived it, drank it, ate it, breathed it and along the way you learned & forgot more things that you take for granted than most Americans will know about soccer in a lifetime. It's part of your culture, it's part of your daily life, it's part of you.

If you want to make OOTP, or any other baseball game, the diamond equivalent of CM/FM, you're going to need enough people involved in the project on a daily basis that have the same relationship. That understand when something is wrong, that knows when something feels right, that knows & understands baseball better than they know their multiplication tables. Otherwise, this merry-go-round is going to just going to keep on spinning, with nobody on either side of the equation truly getting what they want.

Good post.

[Johnny Slick]

...says the guy posting on a Front Office Football message board.

Obviously OOTP is going to have its flaws. Puresim does as well (for instance, if you start a sim in 1876 you will have to use a closer who will save 50 games for you just the same as if you started play in 2006). I think that you're not looking for a "good" game, you're looking for a "perfect" game. And well, I guess you're going to have to keep looking. If you want hyper-realistic baseball, buy Diamond Mind or Strat-o-Matic. Puresim's come a long way in the past couple years, but it still hiccups a lot. Baseball Mogul is just plain trash. That leaves OOTP. Maybe it's the best only by default, but it's still the best IMO and the competition in the field right now will only help.