Kramer goes crazy

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by BrianD

I'm not sure I agree with this (in a general sense, not specifically to this event). If people are hurt enough, or angry enough, they will seek out anything to use in an attack. They may not believe it, but it could be good ammunition. I think you have to look at these things on a case by case basis and try to determine what is really going on inside.

I see what you mean, but I have a hard time agreeing with it. If a word or an idea (lynching people, for instance) is offensive enough to a person, I can't see how it would even occur to that person to bring it up. I suppose that someone could get angry enough that they'd consider offending themselves just to hurt somebody else, but I have a hard time believing that there's not at least a drop of sincerity in what they're saying. In my experience, I've found that people are more likely to say what they really think when they're angry. That obviously doesn't apply to everybody, but it's how things generally appear to me.

Anyway, I see your point, and it's certainly something for me to think about.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

I see what you mean, but I have a hard time agreeing with it. If a word or an idea (lynching people, for instance) is offensive enough to a person, I can't see how it would even occur to that person to bring it up. I suppose that someone could get angry enough that they'd consider offending themselves just to hurt somebody else, but I have a hard time believing that there's not at least a drop of sincerity in what they're saying. In my experience, I've found that people are more likely to say what they really think when they're angry. That obviously doesn't apply to everybody, but it's how things generally appear to me.

Anyway, I see your point, and it's certainly something for me to think about.

I think it depends on how out of control the angry person is. If a person is really out of control (drugs/alcohol could be involved), I agree that the person would be more likely to say the things they really feel but are hiding.

If the angry person is still in control and really wants to lash out at the other person, saying things that the other person finds offensive would be a good way to do that.

I haven't seen the Richard's events, so I can't say whether he was being honest or just going for painful shots. I just generally think the apology is worth listening to before completely condemning the guy.

[dbd1963]

Basically, Richards' only defense is "I'm just a mean SOB, not really a racist." Either way, he's a bastard. Maybe he has the character to actually change because of this, but that remains to be seen, if anyone cares to check up on it.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by BrianD

I think it depends on how out of control the angry person is. If a person is really out of control (drugs/alcohol could be involved), I agree that the person would be more likely to say the things they really feel but are hiding.

If the angry person is still in control and really wants to lash out at the other person, saying things that the other person finds offensive would be a good way to do that.

I haven't seen the Richard's events, so I can't say whether he was being honest or just going for painful shots. I just generally think the apology is worth listening to before completely condemning the guy.

I know you weren't talking about the Michael Richards event specifically, so I must concede that, in some cases, I can agree with you on this. Hell, when I was a kid, I'd argue with my big sister and say mean things to her just to set her off. Looking back on it, I didn't really mean those things, but I just wanted to upset her. Yeah, I see what you mean.

About Michael Richards, though, I can't imagine even stringing the words "fifty years ago we'd have you upside-down with a fucking fork up your ass" together, though. To me, that comment just reeks of something that's been sitting in his mind for ages, and it finally slipped out in public. In this specific case, I still feel like he's mostly sorry that he got caught. Maybe getting caught will have some positive effect on him in the aftermath, but I don't think that this was just one of those "let me offend the heckler" things.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

About Michael Richards, though, I can't imagine even stringing the words "fifty years ago we'd have you upside-down with a fucking fork up your ass" together, though. To me, that comment just reeks of something that's been sitting in his mind for ages, and it finally slipped out in public. In this specific case, I still feel like he's mostly sorry that he got caught. Maybe getting caught will have some positive effect on him in the aftermath, but I don't think that this was just one of those "let me offend the heckler" things.

I was going to argue with you by saying that a longer statement would seem more deliberate due to the complexity of putting the longer thought together in a coherent way, and that a bad word or two would be easier to have slip out in the heat of the moment. Thinking about it a bit more though, his thought wasn't terribly coherent. It wasn't something that seems designed to bring out a certain reaction in someone, it sounds like a lot of his natural emotion scrambling the message.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Subby

Nothing to do with your mom - just how all your posts about women involve treating them like RealDolls.

I guess I can add gays to your hate list too, Kramer Jr...

Wow you can get all that based off random statements. Cool is that like a jedi mind trick or something? Wait so I hate the Sith now?

[GoldenEagle]

Originally Posted by TheOhioStateUniversity

Um schmidty that has to be the most ignorant statement I have ever heard. If the history of that word doesnt explain why people are so sensitive towards it for you, I dont know what will.

To me, the word has lost much of its swagger. Now obviously in this situation like ths, the guy lost it. He was using it as a term of hate. But to say that people are insensitive to the word is wrong. I heard the word everyday on my campus when I was in school.

I guess what I am trying to get as is, how can black people be so sensitive to the word and yet it still be used in everyday conversation?

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

I know you weren't talking about the Michael Richards event specifically, so I must concede that, in some cases, I can agree with you on this. Hell, when I was a kid, I'd argue with my big sister and say mean things to her just to set her off. Looking back on it, I didn't really mean those things, but I just wanted to upset her. Yeah, I see what you mean.

About Michael Richards, though, I can't imagine even stringing the words "fifty years ago we'd have you upside-down with a fucking fork up your ass" together, though. To me, that comment just reeks of something that's been sitting in his mind for ages, and it finally slipped out in public. In this specific case, I still feel like he's mostly sorry that he got caught. Maybe getting caught will have some positive effect on him in the aftermath, but I don't think that this was just one of those "let me offend the heckler" things.

Here is my heartfelt response to this: Who the hell knows what his "true" feelings are and how sorry he is for them getting out?

It sickened me and I hope his career goes up in smoke because of it. (what was left of it anyway) He's certainly not a guy I'd want to invite for a drink either. I think there are underlying truths and beliefs to what he said.

But, I don't know that. Richards is going to have to prove to his family and friends that he's truly sorry. Not me or you. All we can do is choose not to support him (which is a promise I can make). Beyond that, I'm not going to even try to figure out his thought process here. If he really wants help, I hope he gets it. If he really has those beliefs, I hope he never shares them agian and nobody give him a stage to express those beliefs. But I'll never be close enough to Richards to know which side of that coin is true. As in another thread here on FOFC, all I can go off of is my perceptions and he essentially ended his existence with that.

Were this my best friend, I'd really have a tough thing to decide here.

ML - Best. Post. Ever.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Troy, I agree with you. I don't mean to come off as saying that I know what the man meant. I don't. I can only go off of perceptions, just like you. So we're on the same page there.

As for the sincerity of his apology, I don't know that either. Ultimately, it doesn't really matter to me what the motivation for his apology is, and although I feel that the nature of the events make his apology somewhat hollow, that's just my opinion about it. The bottom line, however, is that my opinion has no effect on his life or anyone else's. Just as conversation, I'm just giving my point of view about the whole thing.

[Joker]

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by Noop

Wow you can get all that based off random statements. Cool is that like a jedi mind trick or something? Wait so I hate the Sith now?

Are you the only one who doesn't see the irony in this?

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by wade moore

B) Schmidty - I mean this with the utmost respect... your comment was ignorant. Do you maybe have some points that there are other words that people use that shouldn't be used either? Yes. Do you maybe have a point that there are people that use the N* word and it is acceptable and it shouldn't be? Yes. However, to try and say that people overreact at it being used - particular in a manner like it was here? That is ignorant imo. This was the worst possible way it could be used. It was used directly as a slander, screaming it in anger, while combining it with discussings of lynchings and saying that "that's what you get when you heckle a white man" or whatever he said.

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

Seriously. I agree with Wade in that I'm surprised (and dismayed) that anyone here is defending Richards/downplaying his comments.

Here is my original post:

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Although I think using the n-word is in bad taste, people are way over the top in their sensitivity toward it; HOWEVER, the fact that he mentioned lynching was absolutely horrific. I really hope he was trying to be Kauffman-esque and doesn't truly hold that much hate in his heart.

Nowhere in that post did I say ANYTHING about wanting defend Richards. He is either a true racist, or a comedian with really bad taste in jokes. This was a case where people didn't overreact, as he was obviously using the terms in an extremely hateful way.

My only point was that in some situations people go crazy about the word, such as having Tom Sawyer taken out of schools because it contains the word. I've heard a person called "cultural murderer" because he was white and used the term "What's up n-gga!" He was joking with a friend, and a teacher overheard him. He was suspended and was labeled as a racist. Should he have used the term? No, it was dumb of him, but I knew him, and he certainly wasn't a racist.

Again, if you actually read what I wrote, I never, ever said that what Richards said was anything but wrong, and I never "defended" him as Eaglefan27 said. Furthermore, I never condoned the use of the word.

Anyway, I wish I just wouldn't said anything. Sorry to get this thread sidetracked.

[MizzouRah]

Here's the apology on you tube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dufHYw-W6j4

[Bubba Wheels]

I would say, on the whole, that Richards has a bigger problem than Gibson for this reason: Gibson's rant was drunken and his apology was sober, Richard's rant appeared to be sober and his apology was drunken (or on drugs)... completely rambling and incoherent (Katrina and the Iraqi War are to blame?)

[MJ4H]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

(Katrina and the Iraqi War are to blame?)

what? that's not what he said.

[ISiddiqui]

And he looked more distressed and upset at himself than drunk or on drugs.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I just watched the apology for the first time, and I actually feel bad for Michael Richards. He does seem to recognize that he has a problem, and I think I understand what he means when he says "I'm not a racist." He said racist things, but I don't have any reason to believe that he treats people in a prejudiced way in his everyday life. Still, he seems to acknowledge that his behavior on that stage did spring from somewhere within him, and he needs to address that.

To me, the worst thing he could have done during that apology would be to say "It was just an accident," and he didn't say that. He seemed genuinely shocked that he was capable of behaving the way he did. I think it's terrible that he had that level of hate and rage within him, but if he truly believes that he was wrong and needs help to overcome that, good for him. Perhaps it took this huge step backward in order for him to make several steps forward.

[Butter]

Still not as crazy as Crazy Joe Davola.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by GoldenEagle

To me, the word has lost much of its swagger. Now obviously in this situation like ths, the guy lost it. He was using it as a term of hate. But to say that people are insensitive to the word is wrong. I heard the word everyday on my campus when I was in school.

I guess what I am trying to get as is, how can black people be so sensitive to the word and yet it still be used in everyday conversation?

I think the generalization is that it's used in everyday conversation. That said, if a word is integrated into slang -- even a pejorative word like that -- then people are going to use it.

I think the idea that it's a "term of endearment" is a bit over the top, it's no more a term of endearment than "dude" or "man" is. I think people use it and that's their business.

The difference comes down to intent. It really does. It almost becomes two words. Call it a double standard, unfair, wrong or even "reverse" racism (which as a sidenote, I hate that term. What, is discrimination only okay when it comes from the dominant group?) but the fact is, it IS different depending on who it comes from and I can't see how allowing white folks to say that, really makes the world a better place, nor do I think black folks en masse ought to line up and stop.

Ultimately, what he did was in poor taste and I felt like he was obviously sincere. But not sincere in regards to who he offended, as much as he was probably sincere that he was sorry he lost his mind and torpedoed his career. So, I don't really care.

I do, however, prefer people say what they really think because it's a heck of a lot easier to deal with these sorts of things in the open, than having people sit at home, stew over what are probably lots of false ideas and harbor all of these ideas until they go nuts.

And that's for all folks. But we're getting further and further away from that and it doesn't seem that it's the right extreme to be on, either.

21st Century Racism

Talk and show everyone your a racist and then if enough people are upset about it just say your sorry and your not a racist. Works everytime.

[Deattribution]

My take is - the guy quite possibly could be racist but I could also see how he isn't. This isn't really as comparable to Mel Gibson as many people make it, some people (actually alot of people) will sink really low when they are offended or upset.

If you watch it, you can see he was trying to 'get back' at the guy and the worse thing he could think of doing was calling him names. How much he meant it, and whether he would do it again is debatable but you can't really deny that the guy was visibly and vocally upset and shaken.

It could make him a racist since the worse thing he could think of doing was calling him those names, but at the same time people have done similiar things that doesn't necessarily portray how they really feel but it does accurately portray how they handle themselves in anger.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by russiaboss

21st Century Racism

Talk and show everyone your a racist and then if enough people are upset about it just say your sorry and your not a racist. Works everytime.

Commie.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Deattribution

It could make him a racist since the worse thing he could think of doing was calling him those names

I think this is part of it. He was so angry, that he wanted to try to lash out at the guy in the worst way he could. Just happened that the guy was black - and these are the most hurtful words that came to his mind. If this was a woman, or a hispanic, or someone who was mentally or physically challenged, or somone who was openly homosexual, or someone who was Jewish, or Arab, etc., I'm guessing that he lashes out in the same manner, but uses a different set of disparaging words. He knew what was harmful (which most of us do), and he used it as ammo. I can't say if deep down he's really a racist. But he sure does have anger management issues.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Commie.

In response to this post, I was going to say, "he shoots, he scores!" but then I thought I'd say, "Boom, goes the dynamite!" Then I thought that sounded stupid so I decided not to say anything at all. Is it too late?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

I'm guessing that he lashes out in the same manner, but uses a different set of disparaging words. He knew what was harmful (which most of us do), and he used it as ammo.

I'll be doggoned. I think somebody might have actually just made sense on this subject.

You actually may not be the first to do so, but I haven't seen anybody so far who I thought summed up what I consider to be the most likely scenario better.

[dbd1963]

I'm guessing that he fired in the same manner, but used a different weapon. He knew bullets were harmful (which most of us do), and he used them as ammo.

some funny stuff for you unfunny people

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qHpJ...related&search=

as long as there are insecure weak minded men around racism will be a potential hobby

[Logan]

Now we know why he was always screwing Jackie Chiles over.

And to the people who are claiming this was damage control because there's a DVD release today...come on. It is SEASON 7 of the most successful TV series in history, with some of the most loyal fans in TV history. Richards could've shot 15 people in that club that night, and sales wouldn't have been affected significantly (maybe even improved).

[Logan]

By the way...what's with the people who were laughing during the apology? Did they think it was a joke apology? Or he was on something?

And (serious question) is Afro-American considered an appropriate term these days?

[Deattribution]

Originally Posted by Logan

By the way...what's with the people who were laughing during the apology? Did they think it was a joke apology? Or he was on something?

And (serious question) is Afro-American considered an appropriate term these days?

I thought the Afro-American bit was odd...

But I think everyone was laughing because nobody is use to seeing Michael Richards being serious, so I think they were thinking it was going to be some kind of gag or joke especially since it was on Letterman.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by Logan

By the way...what's with the people who were laughing during the apology? Did they think it was a joke apology? Or he was on something?

And (serious question) is Afro-American considered an appropriate term these days?

I actually prefer Black. I don't know when Afro American became more popular, but I more identify with Black than Afro or African-American.

[Greyroofoo]

I refuse to use the term "african american".

To me you're American, or not.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Antmeister

I actually prefer Black. I don't know when Afro American became more popular, but I more identify with Black than Afro or African-American.

Well, my perception is that "Afro" has more of a negative connotation. Maybe it's because, in my head, I can hear some Confederate flag-waving redneck say it with the twang. I really didn't think it was popularly used (rightly or wrongly).

I never understood why "Black" was considered bad or improper. Everyone openly refers to people of my kind as white; caucasion is a pain in the ass to say.

[Buccaneer]

Afro-American was popular in the 1970s, as I recall.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by Logan

By the way...what's with the people who were laughing during the apology? Did they think it was a joke apology? Or he was on something?

I think the moment was so uncomfortable, they were all looking for something to make light of.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Afro-American was popular in the 1970s, as I recall.

Damn 1983 birth!

[Anthony]

the thing with stand-up comedy is that the notion it's an "anything goes", fly by the seat of your pants environment is just folly. a lot of the act is so preplanned, and a lot of what the comedian says which seems off-the-cuff is actually well rehearsed. wise-ass hecklers who try to be part of the show really throw a comedian off their game. there just aren't many stand up comedians who can be truly funny having a curveball thrown at them. so what i'm saying here is Richards (extremely) overreacted to a heckler who must've messed up his flow. there's a difference between being naturally funny, an giving the appearance of being funny. you can tell the difference in times like these. naturally funny people can take the ball and run with it, people who have very rigid & scripted acts aren't able to. while the heckler didn't deserve to have those racial slurs directed towards him, Richards probably isn't that great of a performer that he can deal with random events in his act and blew his top. i'm not passing judgement on this issue here, i have no opinion on what Richards did.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Afro-American was popular in the 1970s, as I recall.

I know the word was used, but I don't remember it being more used than the word Black. Of course I lived the first 9 years of my life in teh 70's.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

the thing with stand-up comedy is that the notion it's an "anything goes", fly by the seat of your pants environment is just folly. a lot of the act is so preplanned, and a lot of what the comedian says which seems off-the-cuff is actually well rehearsed. wise-ass hecklers who try to be part of the show really throw a comedian off their game. there just aren't many stand up comedians who can be truly funny having a curveball thrown at them. so what i'm saying here is Richards (extremely) overreacted to a heckler who must've messed up his flow. there's a difference between being naturally funny, an giving the appearance of being funny. you can tell the difference in times like these. naturally funny people can take the ball and run with it, people who have very rigid & scripted acts aren't able to. while the heckler didn't deserve to have those racial slurs directed towards him, Richards probably isn't that great of a performer that he can deal with random events in his act and blew his top. i'm not passing judgement on this issue here, i have no opinion on what Richards did.

I agree with your basic point, but what really made Kramer (I mean seriously, can't we just call him that...it's much easier) look bad is the rage and anger that came with the n-bombs. He didn't uncomfortably miss with a joke. He unleased the fucking fury.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Antmeister

I know the word was used, but I don't remember it being more used than the word Black. Of course I lived the first 9 years of my life in teh 70's.

I guess it depends on the context. Black then, as now supposedly, is a more casual term. Something-American would be used more in formal speech or journalism. Do you think one is more formal than the other?

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

I guess it depends on the context. Black then, as now supposedly, is a more casual term. Something-American would be used more in formal speech or journalism. Do you think one is more formal than the other?

Hmmm....never thought of it as a more formal word. I hear it used more often because I think people think the word is more politically correct.

If it was formal, why don't we say Italian-American, Samoan-American, Filipino-American, Guamanian-American, etc. to describe other races. Don't get me wrong, I don't find any offense being called African- or Afro-American. They are where my roots had started but now I have a broken link with Africa. I can't dig back in my family tree to look at some my early ancestors that most people can. That is why I prefer Black. In my mind, it represents me more as American than the other.

But you still bring up a point I never thought about before.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Antmeister

Hmmm....never thought of it as a more formal word. I hear it used more often because I think people think the word is more politically correct.

If it was formal, why don't we say Italian-American, Samoan-American, Filipino-American, Guamanian-American, etc. to describe other races.

It is my impression that such has become standard practice in journalism.

Don't get me wrong, I don't find any offense being called African- or Afro-American. They are where my roots had started but now I have a broken link with Africa. I can't dig back in my family tree to look at some my early ancestors that most people can. That is why I prefer Black. In my mind, it represents me more as American than the other.

I think it's just the opposite impression - it has become a term that they want you to say. I also think many (of all races) do not like it being brought up all of the time (esp. when one ask a stupid question like "how long have you been an african-american QB?"). As your impression that it doesn't make much sense to bring up Welsh-American, having ancestors from Africa (as long as it's not Egypt, Morocco, Afrikaaner, etc.) doesn't neccesarily imply anything more or less important.

[cuervo72]

FWIW, Baltimore has a newspaper still named The Afro-American (founded in 1892).

JiMG - thanks.

[SplitPersonality1]

Originally Posted by Antmeister

I know the word was used, but I don't remember it being more used than the word Black. Of course I lived the first 9 years of my life in teh 70's.

Youngster.

When I first heard about this story, my gut reaction was that somebody took something out of context or blew it up way out of proportion. Happens all the time in this PC world of ours.

However, upon viewing the video.....wow.

Is Michael Richards a racist? Probably. At the least there is something from his past that he needs to deal with. If he had used the n-word once or twice to get back at the heckler, I would have chalked it up to stupidity, drunkeness or something else rather forgetable. As someone else mentioned, stringing the words "fifty years ago we'd have you upside-down with a fucking fork up your ass" is not over the top comedy that you improv. In my opinion it has to come from something much deeper.

Now, will I turn the channel when "Kramer" shows up on a Seinfeld rerun. No. I'm just kind of disappointed with the guy and I hope he confronts and beats whatever demons that are haunting him.


And I'm with Antmeister. I am Black, not Afro-American (haven't had an Afro since '78 ), not African-American (my family hasn't been in Africa since the 1840's as far as I know)....Black.

Hell, I love to confuse people and tell them that I am an Irish-American. My great-grandfather lived in Ireland for about thirty years before he came back to the states so technically it's correct.

[Buccaneer]

my family hasn't been in Africa since the 1840's as far as I know

Probably before that since we outlawed the slave trade (importation from Africa) by about 1810.

[SplitPersonality1]

Not all of my ancestors were slaves though Bucc. The portion of family that I am referring to came to America from Africa via France.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by SplitPersonality1

Not all of my ancestors were slaves though Bucc. The portion of family that I am referring to came to America from Africa via France.

Understood, my mistake. You cited a well-documented antebellum decade.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by Logan

By the way...what's with the people who were laughing during the apology? Did they think it was a joke apology? Or he was on something?

And (serious question) is Afro-American considered an appropriate term these days?

You have to remember the show is taped early in the day (I think around 4:00-4:30 in the afternoon.) I think that part of the audience had no idea what he had done and thought that it was a comedy bit.

[SplitPersonality1]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Understood, my mistake. You cited a well-documented antebellum decade.

No prob Bucc.