OT - The Canadian politics thread

[Joe Canadian]

Originally Posted by Karim

I am a born and bread Calgarian. I became politically conscious around the second term of the Mulroney Conservatives. I understood and supported the forming of the Reform Party as Western Canadians were fed up with Ottawa dictating to Western Canada. I supported the "unite the right" movement as I felt it was practically necessary to present one electoral voice rather than two.

People outside the region dismiss Western alienation as a myth but it has it's roots to the 1920s. Whether it was the UFA, CCF, Social Credit or the Reform Party, Western Canada was willing to try new ideas and parties to get a voice within Parliament because the existing parties failed to support or captivate the region. I won't detail specific examples that rest in the memories of Western Canadians as books have been written about it but the final straw was the NEP under the Trudeau government.

That was the first instance Western seperatism had legs. Prior to that, it was merely talked about and rejected as Western Canadians are, for the most part, willing to work within the system. However, Trudeau's utter disdain for the region led to the formation of a seperatist party. After every election since, seeing the rejection from the rest of the country, seperatist talk gets new life. I'm hearing it again this morning.

Western Canadians don't understand why we're painted with horns by the rest of Canada and the media. They certainly don't understand why Ontario, and specifically the 40 seats in the GTA have given a new mandate to a government under 36 investigations. They certainly see it as an endorsement to waste billions of taxpayers dollars from Alberta, a net contributor to the federation. I'm a conservative (deliberate small "c" because I'm not in the party) but my views on social policies are so different than Randy White, Stockwell Day, Scott Reid, Rob Anders or Cheryl Gallant. And that is true for the majority of conservatives. The social agenda of these five individuals would not get much play in caucus.

This country is without doubt four solitudes. The Liberal Party likes to think of itself as a national party but electing one or two members from Alberta or Saskatchewan does not make it so. They always have been disrespectful to the region.

I have immense respect for the Bloc Quebecois and sovereigntists. They are standing up for Quebec, rejecting the notion that this country and federation can be inclusive, and fighting for what they believe in. No one criticizes them for collecting their own federal tax and having their own pension plan. Yet, when the same is suggested for Alberta, those evil Western Canadians are at it again. Maybe if walls were set up around Alberta and resource revenue wasn't redistributed, the country would think about the disunity that actually exists. Of course, this won't happen because equalization is entrenched in the constitution and Albertans are notoriously stubborn in their belief in this country no matter how many times they get kicked in the stomach. But if Alberta or Western Canada leaves, that would be a different story.

I've said my piece. I'm now going to console with my right-wing radical friends and discuss how a woman's place is in the kitchen birthing babies, how minorities shouldn't be protected under the Charter as they aren't "true Canadians", and how the Notwithstanding Clause should be invoked to prevent same-sex marriage because "those people" really need to be first cured of their disease.

Ah, yes... good ol' Alberta getting burned by the rest of the country. Take a look at some other provinces... there a little worse off then poor Alberta.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Joe Canadian

Ah, yes... good ol' Alberta getting burned by the rest of the country. Take a look at some other provinces... there a little worse off then poor Alberta.

Doesn't Alberta pay something like $3000 more per person in taxes than they get back for services, with most of that going towards the eastern provinces like Newfoundland?

I saw the graphic in the Toronto Star that had the Libs with 135 but NDP with only 19 seats, despite the article saying the NDP had 21 seats. Is this because of auto-recounts or was the graphic wrong? That would be kind of funny if the two only combined for 154 seats, forcing the Liberals to ally with BQ. Even if they do combine for 156, that means that on any issue, 2 reps alone could extort a lot of concessions. Seems like a recipe for disaster to me, but I don't know too much about parliamentary governments.

[Karim]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

I hate this attitude. Every province or territory brings something to the table in this country. Why don't we just keep drawing lines around ourselves until every person gets to be their own country? Then I won't have to ever pay taxes to anyone who doesn't have as much wealth or income potential as I do.

Maybe if Ottawa did a better job of incorporating Western concerns, many of us wouldn't feel so left out of the process. Martin spouts off how dealing with Western alienation is one of his primary concerns and then he sends over Goodale to threaten us to vote Liberal to have a voice in government.

An elected Senate, which is rejected by the rest of the country, would go a long way. Proportional representation and other democratic and institutional reforms would go a long way. Unfortunately, I don't see these happening because the winning party never wants to change the system that just got them elected.

[Karim]

Originally Posted by Joe Canadian

Ah, yes... good ol' Alberta getting burned by the rest of the country. Take a look at some other provinces... there a little worse off then poor Alberta.

It has nothing to do with being worse off.

[Karim]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Doesn't Alberta pay something like $3000 more per person in taxes than they get back for services, with most of that going towards the eastern provinces like Newfoundland?

Alberta paid $9 billion in equalization payments this past year.

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I saw the graphic in the Toronto Star that had the Libs with 135 but NDP with only 19 seats, despite the article saying the NDP had 21 seats. Is this because of auto-recounts or was the graphic wrong? That would be kind of funny if the two only combined for 154 seats, forcing the Liberals to ally with BQ. Even if they do combine for 156, that means that on any issue, 2 reps alone could extort a lot of concessions. Seems like a recipe for disaster to me, but I don't know too much about parliamentary governments.

The final count was 19 NDP. The final count is still up in the air because there will be automatic recounts in close ridings across the country.

The minority government will only crumble if government legislation is defeated when it is considered a confidence motion, such as the budget.

[Joe Canadian]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Doesn't Alberta pay something like $3000 more per person in taxes than they get back for services, with most of that going towards the eastern provinces like Newfoundland?

Since you brought up Newfoundland & Labrador... here's something you probably didn't know. Newfoundland is trying to become a have province through its riches in the oil & gas industry and hyrdo industry, however eqaulization and Ottawa takes much of this away. THAT is what's wrong with equalization... not the fact that Alberta is getting money taken away from them.

Equalization is meant to allow some of the poorer provinces an opportuinty to become have provinces through resource development and the like, but when that same formula takes away the money they are making to become a have province, it sort of defeats the purpose.

[Joe Canadian]

I love the attitude of some Canadians... the whole "I don't like you, so I'm taking my ball and going home" attitude is getting real old quickly. First Quebec, then Western Canada, and soon to be Newfoundland (they are starting a Bloc type party next election, here)... instead of working out comprimises... it's our way or the highway. It's annoying as hell.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by Karim

Maybe if Ottawa did a better job of incorporating Western concerns, many of us wouldn't feel so left out of the process. Martin spouts off how dealing with Western alienation is one of his primary concerns and then he sends over Goodale to threaten us to vote Liberal to have a voice in government.

An elected Senate, which is rejected by the rest of the country, would go a long way. Proportional representation and other democratic and institutional reforms would go a long way. Unfortunately, I don't see these happening because the winning party never wants to change the system that just got them elected.

If Alberta doesn't feel they are having their concerns dealt with properly by Ottawa, perhaps they aren't electing good MP's. The whole point of an MP is to fight for his constituancy. If he isn't getting things done, time for a new one.

As for proportional representation, I'd like to see how this would have helped either of the "seperatist" factions in our country. The Conservatives had just under 30% of the vote share, which would equate to 92-93 seats. They currently managed to win 99 seats, most of which are situated in the West and are therefore supposedly fighting solely for your interests. The Bloc takes it even further, with their vote share of 12.4% equating to about 38 seats, yet they managed to get 54 under the current system. I'd like to see how proportional representation would help the cause of either party here.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by Joe Canadian

I love the attitude of some Canadians... the whole "I don't like you, so I'm taking my ball and going home" attitude is getting real old quickly. First Quebec, then Western Canada, and soon to be Newfoundland (they are starting a Bloc type party next election, here)... instead of working out comprimises... it's our way or the highway. It's annoying as hell.

I agree 100% with you here. I feel Manitoba may be on the way to being a 'have' province one day (if we manage our hydro properly and can attract some more business here). I hope the day never comes when there is some lame-ass movement to seperate us, no matter how much we would have to pay in equalization.

[Schedule Junkie]

Originally Posted by Karim

Maybe if Ottawa did a better job of incorporating Western concerns, many of us wouldn't feel so left out of the process.

So what exactly are these western concerns? I don't think I've ever seen a list precisely spelling out what the perceived problems are.

Originally Posted by Karim

Alberta paid $9 billion in equalization payments this past year.

And how much did Ontario pay out in equalization payments last year?

[Kevin]

Why do we need a Senate at all? Skip the elected part and just abolish it. That's what most Maritimers that I know feel.

The only purpose a Senate fills is to give patronage appointments to the old party faithful. I'm sure some of them contribute to Committee work, but the Senate as a decision making body has little or no use.

A good use for proportionate representation might be to replace the Senate with a think tank group appointed based on proportionate representation to divide into Committees to work on a number of key policy areas.

[Karim]

I have tried to outline some thoughts, hopefully coherent. Sorry for the length but it isn't a topic that can be summarized in one or two lines.

~~~~~

- The Federal Liberal implementation of the National Energy Program in 1980 had a devastating impact on the region, Alberta in particular, and the sense of distrust of Ottawa has not dissipated. Ottawa was regulating the export and pricing of oil and gas but leaving unregulated electricity and forestry in Ontario and Quebec. To this day, the West does not have full control over its resource revenue. Similar instances of Ottawa regulation of Western development, whether it was land-grants to the CPR that affected land-use issues, freight rates that encouraged non-processed goods to leave the region to Ontario or tariffs that eliminated American markets and forced the West to sell to Ontario, have all contributed to the sense of alienation throughout the West's history. Western grain farmers are forbidden to market their own grain by the Canada Wheat Board. The CF-18 contract in 1986 that was awarded to Montreal instead of Winnipeg, despite a much more competitve bid from Manitoba is another example that sticks in the minds of Western Canadians. There are many more.

- Western alienation is fostered by the belief that the benefits of Confederation are outweighed by the costs of national government policies. This past fiscal year, only Ontario and Alberta were by required by the constitution to give Ottawa equalization payments. Ontario however, is at the center of power. A party that wins a majority of the seats in Ontario and Quebec will form the government; it does not need to concern itself with the rest of the country. How Quebec is a have-not province is still perplexing. To balance this inequity, Alberta hasn't been asking for more seats but has pushed for a Triple-E Senate - equal, elected and effective - but the thought that provinces are equal is repugnant to Central Canada. It would not stand for P.E.I. overruling an initiative in favour of Ontario or Quebec. Instead of reforming the Senate, how about the Prime Minister appoint senators from Alberta who have been elected by the citizens of Alberta, instead of appointing whoever he pleases? This was rejected too.

- Other direct democracy initiatives favoured in this province such as referenda, recall and reducing party discipline have been rejected. It seems no one is interested in keeping Ottawa accountable. They waste taxpayers dollars ad nauseum such as $2 billion on the gun registry which does nothing to take away guns from criminals and is seen as nothing more than Liberal social engineering. The sponsorphip and HRDC scandals were just the most elaborate. Privacy Commissioner George Radwanski and his Director of Communications Donna Vallieres spent $17,000 on lunch last year and took two trips to Paris to the tune of $30,000. Radwanski had $600,000 in tax debt but Revenue Canada forgave the debt requiring him to only pay $60,000; this despite his $210,000 annual salary. When he finally resigned, he was given a $79,000 severance package. $90 million is being spent on a new political history museum and $200 million is being spent on a tower for Parliament Hill. Some other examples of wise spending by the Liberal government:

- $8,000 to the “Barking Sphinx Performance Society,” a creative music group
- $1,000 to “Chicks in Flicks Productions,” for someone named Lulu Keating to travel to Denmark
- $1,037 for 20 tickets to “Far Side of the Moon,” a play where a young boy is looking at a washing machine in a laundromat. “This morphs his imagination about going into a space capsule, and the play turns into a meditation on the moon as a powerful force in our lives.”
- $22,500 to the Plug In Gallery in Winnipeg for the “World Tea Party,” explaining the “art of tea.” The event was described this way: “Plug In Gallery has cultivated some genial exchanges by going to various parts of the world, combining Sacred Music Events with the World Tea Trolley. “
- $121,159 for golf balls
- $15,886 for golf tees
- $1,488,581 for cameras
- $16,714 for games and wheeled toys
- $1,744 on perfume (ACOA, the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, which is in the business of giving loans, spent $144.34 on perfumes, toilet preparations and powders.)
- Canadian Housing and Mortgage Corporation, which spent $14,653 on briefcases and $10,900 on umbrellas.
- The Museum of Nature spent $3,250 on assorted games.
- $303,800 for “The Influent and the Effluent,” a documentary that explores the hidden world of sewage and the relationship between humans and waste.
- $276,929 for “Christopher, Please Clean Up!” a film described as: “Christopher is cool and smart except he is messy; his shoes smell, his fish bowl smells, and even the cockroaches take offence.
- Correctional Services of Canada, which is supposed to be keeping our wrongdoers under watch, had $128,184 of “assets” stolen from prisons.
- The RCMP had $81,455 worth of government property stolen.

This should raise the ire of all Canadians, not just fiscally conservative Alberta.

- I won't overstate the social conservative element in Alberta but it is there. Just from my observations, when it comes to abortion, same-sex marriage and law and order issues, many Albertans take the "conservative" view on justice more than the other two. If Alberta alone had a referendum on capital punishment, I suspect it would pass. Other social issues are more diverse in this province, as hard as that it is to believe. Many do dislike judges appointed by the Prime Minister however, just as they dislike appointed Senators. Lists of judges submitted by the province are routinely ignored by the PM. Yet, we are supposed to submit to initiatives that are seen as left-wing social engineering. Official bilingualism is seen as a complete failure in Alberta and a waste of money.

- Someone asked why proportional representation would address any of these concerns. The fact is that our plurality system enhances the negative aspects of regionalism. There are many left-leaning people in Alberta just as there are conservatives in Quebec and Atlantic Canada. The way our first-past-the-post system only rewards the winner, you wouldn't think so. Regional politics also makes provincial governments appear to be the only defender of provincial interests. If people across Canada could see that they share much in common with every other province, it would go a long way in reducing tensions. There would be left, left-center and right-center representation in every province and every government. The fact that Ottawa only wants to hear our review of their work once every four years, and then with only a X, is insulting.


I blame Maple Leafs for all of this though. http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/%7Efof/f...ilies/wink.gif

[Joe Canadian]

Originally Posted by Karim

(ACOA, the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, which is in the business of giving loans, spent $144.34 on perfumes, toilet preparations and powders.)

I'll reply to the rest of your points Thursday afternoon so I'll have some more time to read them well... but I had to hit this one right now.

ACOA, something Harper wants to get rid of, but had been skirting around the issue the whole election. ACOA is set up to give loans to small business' that otherwise could not get loans from banks or other loan agencies. Of course there has been some abuse, but you're going to find that everywhere... should we rollover and accept it, NO, but we can't be naive and expect zero abuse. ACOA works very well, one of the most noteable things it has done was help fund the company that created the Blackberry technology you find in phones... without ACOA they, the company, would not be able to compete with their competitors coming out of San Fran. Again there has been come mis-direction of funds, but the above is example is why the organization is set-up... and the legitmate uses FAR out way the blunders.

Harper's answer... scrap it, and replace it with business tax cuts. There's a couple of problems this creates. Instead of supporting small business' like ACOA does, this gives tax breaks to large corperations that do not need extra funding. The other thing is that it's pretty hard to start a business with a tax cut... sure it makes expences decrease, but the initial start-up funding is what's paramount, and thats where ACOA comes into play.

[Karim]

I'm not a Harper apologist and certainly will defer to your knowledge of ACOA.