New Orleans Modern Day version of "Sodom and Gomorrah"

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I can't help but feel what you're saying here is: "The Holocaust is over, done. Don't think about it any more. Concentrate on the good things!" I think that's an unrealistic world view.

You really don't pay much attention, do you? I'm the last person who would suggest we forget the holocaust. I think we need to do MORE to support Israel and the jews. It's funny how people seem to forget the holocaust when they suggest we shouldn't give military support to Israel or we should compel the Israelis to give up their homeland to a pack of militant islamic thugs who will only continue to work towards the total destruction of the jews.

And, for your information, I DID find a blessing in my wife's suspension. It illustrated the double-standard for free speech that goes on around here, and showed me that I need to be a little more vocal about it. I'm sure EVERYONE will be glad you've brought up that subject again.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Fixed it for you.

Yeah, I agree... the writing was poor... and it's disappointing, because the premise was solid, and the story could have been told so much better.

[capsicum]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I can't help but feel what you're saying here is: "The Holocaust is over, done. Don't think about it any more. Concentrate on the good things!" I think that's an unrealistic world view.

Why dont you try reading it in context to his answer then? He never suggested pepole "forget" about the War, just suggested people try to see the good that came from the war having been fought.

As for your continued blathering on about my suspension.....its folks like you that make my having been boxed completely ridiculous. My being blunt and to the point is less offensive then your mis quotes and sympathy trolling anyday. If the suspensions are ever handed out fairly and evenly then im sure your whining will be over.
However please continue on making our point.

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

So are you looking down on the belief or the nutjobs...er people here?

If you believe life revolves around God, Satan, Heaven and Hell, ect, then yeah, I think there has got to be a screw loose(too put it more bluntly than I should). But if you are a good guy I'm not going to treat you like dirt or let it effect my opinion of you. I don't equate everyone to that nutty asshole Pastor.

Religion, as a whole, does nothing good for the world or the human civilization, it teaches a backwards way of thinking and intelorance based around what God wants and approves of. If you need it in order to feel better about your life, then you are using the bible as a crutch, something you shouldn't and don't need.

Now I'm a firm believer that science and the pursuit of knowledge is what is currently driving mankind forward, and at a very basic level religion and religion in government conflicts with this. Just taints my outlook a bit more.

I had something longer typed out, but I just turned out looking even more like FranklinNobile and his SO. Hopefully I wasn't TOO inflammatory(wishful thinking).

[Subby]

Originally Posted by capsicum

As for your continued blathering on about my suspension.....its folks like you that make my having been boxed completely ridiculous. My being blunt and to the point is less offensive then your mis quotes and sympathy trolling anyday. If the suspensions are ever handed out fairly and evenly then im sure your whining will be over.
However please continue on making our point.

Isn't there a snappy bible verse you could have used here instead? Turn on ScriptureBot2000 and see what happens!!

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by capsicum

As for your continued blathering on about my suspension.....its folks like you that make my having been boxed completely ridiculous.

Ah, the truth comes out. You two won't be happy until I'm boxed.

My being blunt and to the point is less offensive then your mis quotes and sympathy trolling anyday.

What is "sympathy trolling", pray tell?

However please continue on making our point.

It continues to be my humble duty to embody the Great Liberal Anti-Christ for the Noble household. Remember to tell your children that if they are bad, I will come for them in the night.

[Ajaxab]

Originally Posted by jeff061

Now I'm a firm believer that science and the pursuit of knowledge is what is currently driving mankind forward, and at a very basic level religion and religion in government conflicts with this. Just taints my outlook a bit more.

Why such faith in science (excuse the phrasing)? How has science ushered in progress? Couldn't similar arguments you referenced about religion be made about science and the pursuit of knowledge? Weren't Hitler's and Marx's projects scientific? What about the nuclear bomb at Hiroshima? Couldn't we say the increasingly massive deaths that come about in war are driven by scientific progress?

The religion is bad argument also doesn't seem to fly in light of all the work of all the religious charities who have stepped forward to help victims of crises in history. To suggest that religion is bad because it fosters intolerance (an effect) would then, to use the same logic, mean that religion is good because it has helped many people (an effect).

[Solecismic]

A lot of this does seem to boil down to a "everything happens for a reason" philosophy. And if you're familiar with the "Butterfly Effect," you'll understand just how vast the repercussions from even a small event.

There is something to be said for accepting everything, and making the most of it. As long as you aren't fatalistic about it. But I find it hard to accept the religious view that the Holocaust was in any way preventable or allowed by a god. That's just not something I can ever assimilate into a rational world view.

Any supreme being that allowed such an act is surely not worthy of respect, worship or even tolerance. And on the smaller scale, any supreme being that causes even the tiniest amount of harm to my son or my wife is not worthy of respect, worship or tolerance. There is no bigger picture here.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

Any supreme being that allowed such an act is surely not worthy of respect, worship or even tolerance. And on the smaller scale, any supreme being that causes even the tiniest amount of harm to my son or my wife is not worthy of respect, worship or tolerance. There is no bigger picture here.

Amen.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

Any supreme being that allowed such an act is surely not worthy of respect, worship or even tolerance. And on the smaller scale, any supreme being that causes even the tiniest amount of harm to my son or my wife is not worthy of respect, worship or tolerance. There is no bigger picture here.

Amen to that.

[jeff061]

I should of added for better or for worse, progress is being made for both. If advancement eventually means the end of us, so be it, as it would of been inevitable. We are who we are. What else are we here for if not constantly striving to unlock the secrets around us?

As far as charities, all organizations have stepped to the plate to donate during periods of crisis, religious and otherwise. It doesn't stack up to the wars and hatred religion brings and nothing else can match it in that reguard, speaking historically and very broadly(does not apply to everyone).

[Coffee Warlord]

The religion is bad argument also doesn't seem to fly in light of all the work of all the religious charities who have stepped forward to help victims of crises in history. To suggest that religion is bad because it fosters intolerance (an effect) would then, to use the same logic, mean that religion is good because it has helped many people (an effect).

And I would argue by saying that religion has not helped many people. Some religious ORGANIZATIONS have helped people, but not the religion itself.

[capsicum]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Ah, the truth comes out. You two won't be happy until I'm boxed.

Dont kid yourself. You are no more then a nat on my radar screen. I have NEVER ran crying to a moderator, complaing about you or any others like you, either about your liberal views your foul language, name calling or your deliberate attempts to bait me or my husband.

The moderators if they choose to speak up can reiterate this.

I need no moderator to protect me from the likes of you.

There is this great feature called an ignore button that is available whenever I choose to use it.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Ajaxab

Why such faith in science (excuse the phrasing)? How has science ushered in progress? Couldn't similar arguments you referenced about religion be made about science and the pursuit of knowledge? Weren't Hitler's and Marx's projects scientific? What about the nuclear bomb at Hiroshima? Couldn't we say the increasingly massive deaths that come about in war are driven by scientific progress?

The religion is bad argument also doesn't seem to fly in light of all the work of all the religious charities who have stepped forward to help victims of crises in history. To suggest that religion is bad because it fosters intolerance (an effect) would then, to use the same logic, mean that religion is good because it has helped many people (an effect).

This points to a basic truth: both science and religion can be used by people for purposes that can be good or evil. The connection between a person's belief in science and/or religion and whether that person is "good" or "bad" is tenuous.

Again, as with most things, religion and science are not black and white, they are many shades of grey.

[Ajaxab]

Originally Posted by jeff061

I should of added for better or for worse, progress is being made for both. If advancement eventually means the end of us, so be it, as it would of been inevitable. We are who we are. What else are we here for if not constantly striving to unlock the secrets around us?

I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from here with this question. If advancement does mean the inevitable end of us, why bother with uncovering the secrets? What really is the point of it all? Progress for what end? Is the end about delaying inevitable destruction as long as possible? Again, I'm just trying to understand the perspective of someone who seems entirely devoted to the scientific point of view.

[sachmo71]

Am I the only one that trips out each time Franklinnoble reiterates that he is a devout Christian?

[Ajaxab]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

And I would argue by saying that religion has not helped many people. Some religious ORGANIZATIONS have helped people, but not the religion itself.

Fair point, but it's a fine distinction. I guess we would have to define what we mean by religion.

[Subby]

Originally Posted by capsicum

Dont kid yourself. You are no more then a nat on my radar screen. I have NEVER ran crying to a moderator, complaing about you or any others like you, either about your liberal views your foul language, name calling or your deliberate attempts to bait me or my husband.

The moderators if they choose to speak up can reiterate this.

I need no moderator to protect me from the likes of you.

There is this great feature called an ignore button that is available whenever I choose to use it.

You are awesome. I hope you never get box again. I laugh at every single one of your posts.

Well done.

edit: that should read "boxed". i hope you get all the box you want, obviously. your call.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by sachmo71

Am I the only one that trips out each time Franklinnoble reiterates that he is a devout Christian?

Nope. I find it hilarious as well. Apparently, Franklin comes from the " all the porn in the world is fine, but one gay person is evil" school of thought.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by Ajaxab

I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from here with this question. If advancement does mean the inevitable end of us, why bother with uncovering the secrets? What really is the point of it all? Progress for what end? Is the end about delaying inevitable destruction as long as possible? Again, I'm just trying to understand the perspective of someone who seems entirely devoted to the scientific point of view.

Advancement to further our understanding of the (for lack of better word) universe, to improve our standard of life, and to simply get answers to shit we don't understand. Those are the points of science, in my mind.

[Drake]

The number of spelling and grammar errors in this thread is absolutely horrifying. That's all I've got to offer.

[sachmo71]

Originally Posted by Drake

The number of spelling and grammar errors in this thread is absolutely horrifying. That's all I've got to offer.

DRAKE!

Come on, man! I believe in you! Make sumpin up!

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

Any supreme being that allowed such an act is surely not worthy of respect, worship or even tolerance. And on the smaller scale, any supreme being that causes even the tiniest amount of harm to my son or my wife is not worthy of respect, worship or tolerance. There is no bigger picture here.

Just a comment and a couple of questions (and I *REALLY* need to get going now)...

One of my favorite Dilbert characters is the brilliant garbage man. In one of Adams's cartoons, Dilbert asks him "Why are you a garbage man?" Adams comments on the cartoon something along the lines of, "The garbage man is the smartest man in the world. It intrigues me that anyone would question what the world's smartest person does."

What if the supreme being's ways are different from our ways, his understanding higher than ours, his knowledge greater than ours? If so, would that not mean that it is possible that some of the things that we think to be "wrong" or "not worthy of respect" are actually right, and we're the ones who have it wrong?

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

And, for your information, I DID find a blessing in my wife's suspension. It illustrated the double-standard for free speech that goes on around here, and showed me that I need to be a little more vocal about it. I'm sure EVERYONE will be glad you've brought up that subject again.

I sure am, and you're right, Franky.. there is a double standard about free speech. Unfortunately, the double standard is yours.

Care to throw any more pervasive liberal slants comments out? It's been a long day at work, and I could use the laughs.

[MacroGuru]

Damn,

This is one hell of a pissing match here......

let me get my popcorn....

Ok...you may continue

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

A lot of this does seem to boil down to a "everything happens for a reason" philosophy. And if you're familiar with the "Butterfly Effect," you'll understand just how vast the repercussions from even a small event.

There is something to be said for accepting everything, and making the most of it. As long as you aren't fatalistic about it. But I find it hard to accept the religious view that the Holocaust was in any way preventable or allowed by a god. That's just not something I can ever assimilate into a rational world view.

Any supreme being that allowed such an act is surely not worthy of respect, worship or even tolerance. And on the smaller scale, any supreme being that causes even the tiniest amount of harm to my son or my wife is not worthy of respect, worship or tolerance. There is no bigger picture here.

You have a really small-minded view of things.

God sacrificed his own Son so that when you, your wife, and your son inevitably die, you will not have to suffer eternal torment. This "irrational supreme being" loves you, your wife, and your son more than you can fathom, and to dismiss Him so hatefully because a few things in your life (just like everyone else's) haven't gone your way is pretty sad.

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by Ajaxab

I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from here with this question. If advancement does mean the inevitable end of us, why bother with uncovering the secrets? What really is the point of it all? Progress for what end? Is the end about delaying inevitable destruction as long as possible? Again, I'm just trying to understand the perspective of someone who seems entirely devoted to the scientific point of view.

To put it simplistically. Humankind's exists as a whole is to answer these questions around us, perhaps one of the answers will lead to a revolution on the way we think and comprehend the things around us. If during our journey this leads to the end of us so be it, it would be due to a basic flaw in mankind and over a long enough timespan this outcome would be inevitable. So why fear the end, we should make the most out of the journey.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

What if the supreme being's ways are different from our ways, his understanding higher than ours, his knowledge greater than ours? If so, would that not mean that it is possible that some of the things that we think to be "wrong" or "not worthy of respect" are actually right, and we're the ones who have it wrong?

Possibly. But then arguably everything we think is "right" could also be wrong. Thus Pascal's Wager, of course.

[jeff061]

God sacrificed his own Son so that when you, your wife, and your son inevitably die, you will not have to suffer eternal torment.

Nope.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

One of my favorite Dilbert characters is the brilliant garbage man. In one of Adams's cartoons, Dilbert asks him "Why are you a garbage man?" Adams comments on the cartoon something along the lines of, "The garbage man is the smartest man in the world. It intrigues me that anyone would question what the world's smartest person does."

What if the supreme being's ways are different from our ways, his understanding higher than ours, his knowledge greater than ours? If so, would that not mean that it is possible that some of the things that we think to be "wrong" or "not worthy of respect" are actually right, and we're the ones who have it wrong?

Ah the all powerful garbage man.

And now we delve further into philosophy. But, to keep it simple, it's all a matter of perspective. Who's right and who's wrong, in your example, is irrelevant. If I/we/whoever feels Bad Event is, indeed, a Bad Event, then it is. Simple. If Supreme Being caused Bad Event, or did nothing to prevent Bad Event, then by my perspective, Supreme Being is an ass.

Supreme Being's perspective is irrelevant in this scenario, because we, being Not Supreme Beings, cannot consider Bad Event from Supreme Being's point of view.

Lord I need to go home now.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

God sacrificed his own Son so that when you, your wife, and your son inevitably die, you will not have to suffer eternal torment.

No he didn't.

This "irrational supreme being" loves you, your wife, and your son more than you can fathom

No he doesn't.

Speaking of a narrow world view....

[Ajaxab]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

Advancement to further our understanding of the (for lack of better word) universe, to improve our standard of life, and to simply get answers to shit we don't understand. Those are the points of science, in my mind.

Thanks for the answer. It would seem that religious people would define the pursuit of religion (I'll use that term grudgingly) in terms of understanding the universe and "to simply get answers to shit we don't understand" as well although their pursuit would obviously take a different trajectory. So the discussion gets us back to whether or not science improves our standard of life.

How do we get past the apparent stalemate of 'science has caused incredible problems and death' and 'religion has caused incredible problems and death'? It seems this is where this thread has led us. What are the criteria we use to answer this question?

[jeff061]

He loves me more than I can possibly imagine, he just may have to torture me for all eternity.

Sorry guys, I don't buy it.

[MacroGuru]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

You have a really small-minded view of things.

God sacrificed his own Son so that when you, your wife, and your son inevitably die, you will not have to suffer eternal torment. This "irrational supreme being" loves you, your wife, and your son more than you can fathom, and to dismiss Him so hatefully because a few things in your life (just like everyone else's) haven't gone your way is pretty sad.

See now, this is where I get upset with a lot of the bible thumping going on....just becuase his belief is not equal to your belief is sad?

Why does it have to be sad that he believes that way.

As God has his plan of salvation and we are all set to follow it, some will stray from the flock. There are those who will come back, and those who will stay away. Remember though, those who leave will stay away if you continue to push them away, and honestly, narrow sighted comments like what I have seen in here, tend to keep those away.

[jeff061]

How does the pursuit of religion expand your knowledge? There is no stalemate as religion does not bring anything to the table other than being a crutch to help people through tough times.

I don't need the help.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Ajaxab

How do we get past the apparent stalemate of 'science has caused incredible problems and death' and 'religion has caused incredible problems and death'?

I don't see a stalemate. In my opinion, both statements are true.

Perhaps the question to ask is "how?" Arguably science has caused problems & death because it has given man the tools to achieve these ends. Religion, on the other hand, can be said to have cause problems & death because it has propelled man to commit these acts in the name of their beliefs.

Thus, perhaps a way forward is to argue the moral equivalency between those two.

[JPhillips]

Matthew 5:45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Luke 13: 1-5 1 There were some present at that very time who told him of the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And he answered them, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered thus? 3 I tell you, No; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen upon whom the tower in Silo'am fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, No;

There is no way you can believe in the teachings of Christ and believe that God sent Katrina to kill those in LA, MS and AL.

[st.cronin]

I'm astonished at the sheer ignorance of Christianity being revealed here. (And not just FOFCers - that Pastor with the sign, too.)

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Just a comment and a couple of questions (and I *REALLY* need to get going now)...

One of my favorite Dilbert characters is the brilliant garbage man. In one of Adams's cartoons, Dilbert asks him "Why are you a garbage man?" Adams comments on the cartoon something along the lines of, "The garbage man is the smartest man in the world. It intrigues me that anyone would question what the world's smartest person does."

What if the supreme being's ways are different from our ways, his understanding higher than ours, his knowledge greater than ours? If so, would that not mean that it is possible that some of the things that we think to be "wrong" or "not worthy of respect" are actually right, and we're the ones who have it wrong?

Let me say this is an excellent post by Skydog. One important lesson coming from the story of the Garden of Eden is that in *trying* to understand God (or attain God-like wisdom) we only succeed in putting distance between ourselves and the divine. The mystery and beauty of God is that He is beyond mortal comprehension.

[jeff061]

The mystery and beauty of God is that He is beyond mortal comprehension.

Now I see this as the convenience of God. Given enough time, nothing is beyond mortal comprehension.

[MacroGuru]

Originally Posted by jeff061

Now I see this as the convenience of God. Given enough time, nothing is beyond mortal comprehension.

You err......the Twinkie is the ultimate example here....

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by jeff061

Now I see this as the convenience of God. Given enough time, nothing is beyond mortal comprehension.

Bolded to point the absurdity of your logic. It is, in fact, our mortality that makes the eternal incomprehensible.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

God sacrificed his own Son so that when you, your wife, and your son inevitably die, you will not have to suffer eternal torment.

Question!

If God is all powerful, why would he have to sacrifice his own Son in order for me to not have to suffer eternal torment? Couldn't he just not have me suffer eternal torment?

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by indoorsoccersim

You err......the Twinkie is the ultimate example here....

????

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Bolded to point the absurdity of your logic. It is, in fact, our mortality that makes the eternal incomprehensible.

?? Mankind and all of it's knowledge does not die with the death of one man. I don't understand you.

[MacroGuru]

Originally Posted by jeff061

????

I didn't say it was immortal...just behind the comprehension....white cake...stuffed with cream....wholesome goodness...mmmmmmmmmmm.....

[-Mojo Jojo-]

Originally Posted by Ajaxab

So the discussion gets us back to whether or not science improves our standard of life.

Wait, aren't you typing this on your computer and participating in a discussion on the internet?

[Raiders Army]

The pastor is full of shit:

#1: He believes there is a God.
#2: He thinks that God "punished" the people of New Orleans because America is turning away from God.

Other than that, I find the article to be amusing.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Question!

If God is all powerful, why would he have to sacrifice his own Son in order for me to not have to suffer eternal torment? Couldn't he just not have me suffer eternal torment?

If God is all powerful, can he make Kerry Collins become a leader?

[MacroGuru]

Originally Posted by -Mojo Jojo-

Wait, aren't you typing this on your computer and participating in a discussion on the internet?

Well, the question you need to ask now....does he get more dates now because of the internet, or less dates....then you can tell if his quality of life has improved....

[MacroGuru]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

If God is all powerful, can he make Kerry Collins become a leader?

Some things, even God can't fix.....