Vince Young, revisited

[Huckleberry]

dola -

It's a real stretch from "some improvement" to a 167% increase in performance in 12 hours, don't you think?

[Deattribution]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

I haven't even seen an official NFL person state that he took the test twice. That is simply more rumormill-type stuff.

Young took the test again and scored 16. According to Young's agent, Major Adams, the Sunday test was administered by Jeff Foster, executive director of National Scouting Combine.

I doubt his agent would lie about him taking it again... not like that is flattering statement... Even if his first test was messed up, it's a bad situation to be in as a top pick with 2 other good QBs on your tail.

[IwasHere]

Check out Cartman's link.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/3687374.html

Young took the test again and scored 16. According to Young's agent, Major Adams, the Sunday test was administered by Jeff Foster, executive director of National Scouting Combine.

Oops, too late. Anyway...

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

dola -

It's a real stretch from "some improvement" to a 167% increase in performance in 12 hours, don't you think?

NOT, if you are retaking the exact same freaking test.

[rkmsuf]

Maybe Mr. Shoop helped Vince with his second test.

[Huckleberry]

Stand corrected on the two tests.

Originally Posted by IwasHere

NOT, if you are retaking the exact same freaking test.

One would have to be a 6-on-the-Wonderlic caliber moron to think that the NFL would give the exact same freaking test the second time.

[Poli]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Impressive.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

Stand corrected on the two tests.


One would have to be a 6-on-the-Wonderlic caliber moron to think that the NFL would give the exact same freaking test the second time.

Even if it was the same test, do you think someone who scored an actual 6 would be able to remember the questions asked and be able to find the correct answers before retaking the test?

[Klinglerware]

Vince Young scored an 840 on his SAT. That's pretty crappy but that score is still less than one standard deviation below the assumed mean of 1000 (SD on each test is about 100). The Wonderlic has a mean of about 22, with an SD of about 7. So (assuming equivalency) scoring a 15 on the Wonderlic is like scoring an 800 Math + Verbal.

I would tend to believe that a 16 is more in line with what Vince Young can be predicted to score on the Wonderlic, based on his SAT scores.

[Solecismic]

Well, let's apply the common sense test.

We know that there was a problem with the entire sixth group of tests at the Combine.

If it were simply a matter of scoring the test, then the tests would have been rescored.

So, there was a problem with the administration of the test. Perhaps the scores were accurate, but the timer only gave them six minutes instead of twelve. That might result in Young scoring a 6, but that would not be a fair score.

Whatever the problem, it was enough to warrant a retest for all of group six. Since there are several variations of the Wonderlic, you'd hope they'd use another version. Why wouldn't they?

If Young scored a 16, it's probably valid. And while a 16 would place him in the bottom 5-10% among NFL quarterbacks, it's miles and miles ahead of a 6. A coach might have to dumb down the playbook for Young, but not by anywhere near the amount he would for someone who isn't literate.

A 6 would place him in an unprecedented range. A 16 isn't great, and people will talk, but it's not going to affect his draft position.

[Crapshoot]

He scored an 840 ? You get 400 points for spelling your name.

[sooner333]

He probably got a 16, but it was more fun to think he got a 6.

I think VY can be a good NFL QB, but he'll probably have to use his athleticism to do well, and not pull a Michael Vick (saying that he wants to be a pocket passer, etc.), because that won't work, just as it isn't for Vick. VY has all the athleticism and size to go with it, but at Texas he simply had a lot of time to throw the football, in the past when he had been pressured he had been forced into very poor decisions...this year he didn't have to deal with it as much. For example, Ou didn't get great pressure on him this year, so he could afford to just wait until his wideouts got separation from the secondary and lob up the ball to them. Sure, I saw him throw bullets later in the season, and that was impressive, however, I'm going to wait and see to judge his real-time, NFL passing abilities where his line can't hold the other team at bay for as long as Texas could (because lets face it, Texas is going to have a dominant OL over most college football teams' DL's and an NFL team won't have the same advantage).

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

He scored an 840 ? You get 400 points for spelling your name.

But remember, the SAT scoring system was designed to measure performance based on standard deviations around a mean assuming a normal curve. Each test section is designed to result in 500 as the mean, and every 100 points is one standard deviation away from the mean. With these assumptions, you would expect 68% of the test taking population to score between 800 and 1200.

Remember that the universe of test takers is assumed to be normally distributed, so we can think of the "converse" score of Vince Young to be 1160. I would consider an 1160 as good, but not spectacularly good. Likewise, I would consider the 840 as bad, but not spectacularly bad.

[Huckleberry]

Originally Posted by sooner333

For example, Ou didn't get great pressure on him this year, so he could afford to just wait until his wideouts got separation from the secondary and lob up the ball to them.

What Texas/OU game did you watch this year?

First TD pass: OU blitzes and Young throws a TD pass to Ramonce Taylor on a fade route as the blitzer closes in on him.
Second TD pass: Called rollout to the left where OU leaves Billy Pittman uncovered.
Third TD pass: OU blitzes and Young throws a TD pass to Billy Pittman on a go route as the blitzer closes in on him.

On the first and third plays the ball left Young's hand probably within 2 seconds of the snap. The rollout play was a standard roll out, set, and release.

It's definitely true that Young wasn't pressured much this year. No doubt. But neither are lots of QBs on good teams (Leinart for example). Young has a lot of work to do on decision-making but I'm just baffled that you used the OU game as an example.

[IwasHere]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

Whatever the problem, it was enough to warrant a retest for all of group six. Since there are several variations of the Wonderlic, you'd hope they'd use another version. Why wouldn't they?

Hey Huck, I guess this is what is the Difference between a Re-Test and a MakeUp-Test.

If it had only been 1 or 2 people re-taking the Test I would of blamed Young, but since they had the entire group re-take the test that would mean some type of testing error had occurred.

[Huckleberry]

Agreed.

Jim - Where did you see the info that all of the sixth group retook it or was told to retake it? I've seen that twice now with no cite.

[sooner333]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

What Texas/OU game did you watch this year?

First TD pass: OU blitzes and Young throws a TD pass to Ramonce Taylor on a fade route as the blitzer closes in on him.
Second TD pass: Called rollout to the left where OU leaves Billy Pittman uncovered.
Third TD pass: OU blitzes and Young throws a TD pass to Billy Pittman on a go route as the blitzer closes in on him.

On the first and third plays the ball left Young's hand probably within 2 seconds of the snap. The rollout play was a standard roll out, set, and release.

It's definitely true that Young wasn't pressured much this year. No doubt. But neither are lots of QBs on good teams (Leinart for example). Young has a lot of work to do on decision-making but I'm just baffled that you used the OU game as an example.

Used OU game as example because they had an inexperienced secondary...I'm not sure if you noticed the second touchdown but it was basically an incredibly blown coverage by Reggie Smith, a true freshman safety (who probably won't even be playing the position anymore). Even when OU could get pressure on teams this year, the main problem was that the secondary wouldn't hold thier ground. Sure, it worked against many teams who couldn't contain a blitz long enough, but Texas OL was strong enough to isolate the secondary long enough.

Also, the other two touchdowns are "Go" and "Fade" routes, basically a lob the ball up to the guy streaking down the field when you are getting pressured. That was very simplisitic, but still holds pretty much true.

And against that poor secondary, only 14-27 passing and only 2.64 yards per carry. On his behalf he didn't throw an interception (unlike previous years vs. the same opponent), but OU wasn't exactly an interception machine this year. This was probably also either the third best defense he faced this year.

[stevew]

Didn't LT score a 5 when he was at the combine? Granted he is a hell of a RB, but that is an impressively low score. Ah, nevermind, it was a 13.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

But remember, the SAT scoring system was designed to measure performance based on standard deviations around a mean assuming a normal curve. Each test section is designed to result in 500 as the mean, and every 100 points is one standard deviation away from the mean. With these assumptions, you would expect 68% of the test taking population to score between 800 and 1200.

Remember that the universe of test takers is assumed to be normally distributed, so we can think of the "converse" score of Vince Young to be 1160. I would consider an 1160 as good, but not spectacularly good. Likewise, I would consider the 840 as bad, but not spectacularly bad.

That's a fair point - though I guess I would consider an 1160 to be mediocre, and a 840 to be shocking. A lot of the lower scoring is because of people taking it as a testing benchmark (CTY camps, soforth), but perhaps I'm misinformed.

[Huckleberry]

Originally Posted by sooner333

And against that poor secondary, only 14-27 passing and only 2.64 yards per carry. On his behalf he didn't throw an interception (unlike previous years vs. the same opponent), but OU wasn't exactly an interception machine this year. This was probably also either the third best defense he faced this year.

That's what I was getting at, though. OU got more pressure on Young than anyone other than Ohio State all year long, and they got about the same as the Buckeyes. 3 sacks and all that pressure meant it was feast or famine in the passing game. Only 14-27 but 241 yards, 3 touchdowns, and no interceptions. Averaged over 4 yards per carry if you take out the sacks.

You're 100% right about Young's shortcomings. I was just perplexed at the use of the OU game as an example of having all day to throw, because it was not that way at all.

[rkmsuf]

RE: Wonderlic scores.

Bishop, Michael
1999
Kansas State
10

[sooner333]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry

You're 100% right about Young's shortcomings. I was just perplexed at the use of the OU game as an example of having all day to throw, because it was not that way at all.

Haha, okay my distinct memories of this year's game are hazy I guess, but I guess my main point was that Texas outclassed OU enough so that their blitz was more ineffective than it usually was. I guess what I should have said was that he had all day to throw most of the time, and even when he didn't Texas was able to protect him enough so that it didn't matter. I also used the OU game because I was most familiar with that game on the top of my head, plus that I didn't want to use a previous year's game because he got a lot better since the previous OU/TX game, or the year before's.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

That's a fair point - though I guess I would consider an 1160 to be mediocre, and a 840 to be shocking. A lot of the lower scoring is because of people taking it as a testing benchmark (CTY camps, soforth), but perhaps I'm misinformed.

1160 is well above average.

Over the last 10-15 years, among graduating high school seniors, the average SAT score has been consistently in the 1020-1060 range.

[Solecismic]

It does seem there are a lot of contradictions about the Vince Young test. There's no confirmation that the rest of group six was retested, only that Young was. If the test were improperly adminstrated, then the entire group would get a retest.

If the test were improperly scored, it could be rescored without any contribution from Young.

I don't think we're ever going to know what really happened. The Combine will release his score as a 16, and that's all we'll ever have. The person who leaked the 6 score will probably be fired.

[Passacaglia]

With a guy being as high-profile as Young is, I'm sure teams will take a whole lot more stock in talking to him face-to-face, rather than a standardized test.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

That's a fair point - though I guess I would consider an 1160 to be mediocre, and a 840 to be shocking. A lot of the lower scoring is because of people taking it as a testing benchmark (CTY camps, soforth), but perhaps I'm misinformed.

Depends on the context--in selective and semi-selective college admissions I would definitely consider an 1160 to be mediocre. Also, some states abnormally bolster their SAT averages by discouraging all but their best students from taking the SAT in favor of the ACT, contributing to the perception of an 1160 being mediocre.

But the test is supposed to be designed to measure the universe of high schoole students with an expected mean of 1000. The true mean is in fact around a 1000 as well. So, an 1160 would be statistically a little above average, although it is within one standard deviation so the score could still be considered rather ordinary...

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

Depends on the context--in selective and semi-selective college admissions I would definitely consider an 1160 to be mediocre. Also, some states abnormally bolster their SAT averages by discouraging all but their best students from taking the SAT in favor of the ACT, contributing to the perception of an 1160 being mediocre.

But the test is supposed to be designed to measure the universe of high schoole students with an expected mean of 1000. The true mean is in fact around a 1000 as well. So, an 1160 would be statistically a little above average, although it is within one standard deviation so the score could still be considered rather ordinary...

Also, midwestern states tend to have higher averages, because more people take the ACT. So that might alter your perception, Crappy.

[Buccaneer]

Heh. I didn't realize I obviously played a race card with the thought that perhaps the Wonderlic will become less relevant in the future or will have to change somewhat. There will be more and more QBs like VY coming out and you can't let something like this derail a career. That's all.

For what it's worth, I wsa on record for voting Steve Young out of the HOF and would rather see Angie in his place.

[cthomer5000]

I don't think anything that goes on at the combine is designed to be the be-all end-all verdict on a guy. I think it's really only to raise red flags or help out guys who deserve a closer look than they've been getting.

So the question here is "just how big a red flag is Young raising?"

[wade moore]

.

[RendeR]

While the cartoon is cute Wade, I don't see the correlation to the discussion? Did you have a point?

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by RendeR

While the cartoon is cute Wade, I don't see the correlation to the discussion? Did you have a point?

Ummm...

Did you read the whole thread with the race card being pulled, etc?

[RendeR]

Yes, and I commented that pulling it was ignorant earlier on as well. I was just wondering why you wanted to be an asshat and continue such idiocy? You're not normally the one doing so, so I found it odd.

[wade moore]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Yes, and I commented that pulling it was ignorant earlier on as well. I was just wondering why you wanted to be an asshat and continue such idiocy? You're not normally the one doing so, so I found it odd.

Oh, thaaaaaaaaat's what you mean...

In all honesty, someone sent me the comic today and I didn't feel it deserved it's own thread, but I wanted to share... so I found a thread where it was somewhat relevent.

But you do have a point, I should have let sleeping dog's (not skydogs) lie...

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

I don't think anything that goes on at the combine is designed to be the be-all end-all verdict on a guy. I think it's really only to raise red flags or help out guys who deserve a closer look than they've been getting.

So the question here is "just how big a red flag is Young raising?"

[NoMyths]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

RE: Wonderlic scores.

Bishop, Michael
1999
Kansas State
10

And having talked with the guy, I can attest that the score may have even been high. Yeesh.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

I don't think anything that goes on at the combine is designed to be the be-all end-all verdict on a guy. I think it's really only to raise red flags or help out guys who deserve a closer look than they've been getting.

So the question here is "just how big a red flag is Young raising?"

Young's representation should raise a red flag. If Vince Young is at fault for anything here, it's his hiring of a family friend to represent him instead of an experieced agency. An agency would have prepared him for the wonderlic. Hell, the agency probably wouldn't have put Young anywhere near the combine to begin with...

KING SAYS VINCE WASN'T READY FOR TEST


On Monday, Peter King of Sports Illustrated told Dan Patrick of ESPN Radio that Texas quarterback Vince Young was completely unprepared for the Wonderlic test at the scouting combine.

King said (and we're paraphrasing) that Young had no idea that he'd be given the 50-question exam.

If so, then shame on agent Major Adams. And shame on Young for not affiliating with an experienced agent who knows that one of the things that happens at Indy is that the kids take the Wonderlic.

We'd previously heard that agent Bus Cook was working behind the scenes with Young, but that Cook wasn't -- and wouldn't be -- front and center because Cook represents Vanderbilt quarterback Jay Cutler. We're now intrigued by the possibility that Cook might have generally clammed up as Cutler has inched toward a possible leapfrog over Young.

Regardless, someone should have had Young at least aware of the 50-question, 12-minute test that he'd be taking. Hell, when he heard the word "Wonderlic," he probably thought they were serving ice cream for lunch.

Bottom line -- Vince, friends are friends but business is business. It's time to cut the cord on Adams, because when someone doesn't know what they don't know, that's the worst kind of dangerous you can have, especially when you're dealing with a process that translates into millions of dollars for every spot that your name remains on the board.

[jeff061]

Right, I had the Wonderlic sprung on me prior to signing up for some classes a few years back, I wasn't expecting any kind of test at all. I did fine.

The first few questions are kindergarten level, you don't exactly get befuddled by the questions right away. At least you shouldn't.

[cartman]

A copy of VY's test has leaked out. Here is the first page with the score:

[cthomer5000]

well done cringer

By the way, me and 4 co-workers took a Wonderlic test this afternoon. It's an old copy, that was included in the Paul Zimmerman's "The Thinking Man's Guide To Pro Football." I think most people on this board could literally beat a 6 in under 2 minutes time. The questions start out ridiculously easy and get a little harder or complex as it goes along.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

well done cringer

By the way, me and 4 co-workers took a Wonderlic test this afternoon. It's an old copy, that was included in the Paul Zimmerman's "The Thinking Man's Guide To Pro Football." I think most people on this board could literally beat a 6 in under 2 minutes time. The questions start out ridiculously easy and get a little harder or complex as it goes along.

Which is why I believe that the test can be drilled. Anyone, including Vince Young, can score reasonably well on the test once they are aware of the key concepts, and strategize based on the format of the test:
- you have a limited time to take the test
- the questions appear in relative order of difficulty
- the questions are of equal value regardless of difficulty

So, in Vince Young's case, I would have him do a diagnostic test or two to determine what a realistic target score would be. Based on his SAT's, I would say that he would probably be targeting a score between 18-24 (tight around the mean). It would make sense for him to pretend that the last 20-25 questions don't exist and just spend most of his time on the first 20 questions and some time on the middle 10 (which are easier than the final 20). A mean score would not be hard to achieve with proper coaching and strategizing, even for people with below average intellects.

[Young Drachma]

I really wonder who the people these kids hire as their agents are. His agent should've prepared him knowing he wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. Between him and Clarett's lawyer, who seems hellbent on taking any money this kid ever makes for the rest of his life..I have to wonder about these folks.

It just seems crazy to me that this debacle is costing him a few million bucks and they act as if "oh, it'll be fine."

Whatever man.

[stevew]

From espn

Quarterback Vince Young was timed in 4.58 seconds in the 40-yard dash Wednesday on what is considered a fast track at the University of Texas in Austin, one NFL scout told ESPN's Chris Mortensen. The scout said Young's time was slower than anticipated.
According to the same scout, Young's overall workout was "fairly impressive," but the scout believed that Young was not asked to make certain drops and throws that he would have to perform in a private team workout.
Young's pro workout Wednesday, which was open to all NFL teams, was run by Jerry Rhome, a former NFL quarterback and assistant coach.

Young's projected NFL draft position received a major boost after he led Texas to the BCS Championship in January with one of the great all-time individual performances in college football history.

4.58....damn, that kind of sucks.

[Havok]

He's going to be 1 amazing bust. I wonder if the Browns will draft him?

[IMetTrentGreen]

well, for one, 4.6 is fast for someone the size of an olb.

two, its not his straight line speed that makes him special, its his ability to move side to side with no warning, and his instincts.

three, if he bombs in the nfl, its going to be for the same reason micheal vick did last year, some moron coach tries to fit him into some rhythym passing game

running qbs dont drop back and throw in high school or college. they drop, dance around if they have to, and either take off or throw to an open reciever who had time to get free. they aren't drilled in throwing off their last step because, in the pre-nfl stages anyway, its more productive to let a guy create the time he needs. vince is no exception to this. the first thought i had when i read that the falcons were installing the west coast offense was "why?" seems like they made that move just because, because it certainly wasn't with vick in mind

not to say vick or young can't do it. what i am saying is, the nfl is not the place to learn something like that. greg davis has fucked over every qb he's touched here with not making sure they throw the ball before they actually see the reciever come open. chris simms was particularly bad at this

anyway, if he ends up in houston, with kubiak and that denver broncos offense that is perfect for him, then he'll be a great qb. in tennessee or n.o., then i have my doubts. anyone that takes him and tries to make a dropback/west coast qb out of him is the one who should be out of a job when that little experiment fails

[BishopMVP]

hxxp://michiganzone.blogspot.com/2006/03/m-zone-wonderlic-test.html

Another (fake) Wonderlic. There's obviously no way Maurice Clarett runs a sub-4.5 40.

[miami_fan]

Bump for review purposes

[Joker]

Originally Posted by ardent enthusiast

Impressive.

SNL 1977

Black Perspective .....Garrett Morris .....Fran Tarkenton Garrett Morris: Good evening, and welcome to "Black Perspective". I'm your host, Garrett Morris. Tonight's discussion concerns the black athlete in pro football. And our guest is the legendary quarterback of the Minnesota Vikings, Fran Tarkenton. Welcome, Fran. Fran Tarkenton: Well, thank you, it's nice to be here. Garrett Morris: Yeah, Fran. Aside from your fabulous career on the field, you are also a member of the National Football League's committee on race relations. Fran Tarkenton: Well, that's true, Garrett. I've been the Chairman since 1971. Garrett Morris: Yeah, you've been quoted as saying that football is really brotherhood in action, man. What did you mean by that? Fran Tarkenton: Well, you know, a football team is a family, a family unit consisting of 40 men living and working together toward a goal - winning. And it's a family that counts. The only color that exists is the color of a player's jersey. Garrett Morris: Well, times certainly have changed, Fran. I mean, we've come a long way. Fran Tarkenton: Yeah, and it's about time, I say. Garrett Morris: Right on. right on, man. But still, man, even in 1977, you know, some stereotypes still exist, wouldn't you agree? Fran Tarkenton: Uh, none that I know of. Garrett Morris: Well, how about the myth that a black man can not make it as a pro quarterback? There are 28 teams in the league, and only three of them have black quarterbacks, and they all sitting on the bench, you know what I mean? Fran Tarkenton: Uh.. yeah, yeah. Garrett Morris: Well, for years there's been this myth that a black's mind is not elaborate enough to read defenses. And he can't call audible from the line, and that he has no leadership qualities. Now, you've been, you know, in the league for sixteen years, and you just said that there is no prejudice, right? Fran Tarkenton: Uh, yes. Garrett Morris: Then, what about these myths? Fran Tarkenton: They're absolutely true, Garrett. Garrett Morris: I must have missed something. What did you say? Fran Tarkenton: It's not a myth, it's a fact. Every black I know has trouble with area codes, let alone numbers of plays! Garrett Morris: Wait, wait, wait.. say that again? Fran Tarkenton: Well, you know, even the black kids in the summer camp I run don't have it. Sure, they can dance in the end zone, they've got the bomes in their feet. But when it comes to leadership, one black quarterback on the forty yard line ends up in the parking lot with a bucket of chicken! Garrett Morris: Hey, man, I know what you mean! Yeah, that's true! Yeah, I know what you mean! Fran Tarkenton: And, Garrett, let's face it - try to be objective. If you were on the offensve line, would you turn your back on a black guy standing behind you? Especially during a night game? Garrett Morris: No, man.. not me. I've got a wife and kids. Uh.. look, man, thank you for clearing that up, man. I've always had a problem about that. And thank you for watching "Black Perspective". Next week, Mark Spitz explains why there are no black swimmers. [ zoom out ] [ SUPER: "Coming Up Next: Pornographic money For Cash Freaks" ] [ fade ] SNL Transcripts

[Galaril]

I know it is early in his NFL career but I think he is in contention for rookie of the year more for his impact on the field as well as with the teammates around him. Maroney for the Pats will still probably get it but VY is winning with avery young team.

[SackAttack]

What about the WR for the Saints? The one who was a 6th or 7th round pick?

[Hammer755]

Originally Posted by Galaril

I know it is early in his NFL career but I think he is in contention for rookie of the year more for his impact on the field as well as with the teammates around him. Maroney for the Pats will still probably get it but VY is winning with avery young team.

I still don't see it. I know football is less about numbers than pretty much any other sport, but VY has a passer rating of under 70 and a Comp% under 50%. The Titans have been winning because of their running game, not because of Young (with the notable exception of the NYG game). I didn't see Trent Dilfer getting any MVP consideration just because the Ravens won a lot of games with him under center.